Newbie needing advice

[zack ballard]

Greetings,

So, I am a complete newb when it comes to programming and am wanting
to learn. Been clicking on stuff for years and finally want to learn
what makes what do what and how it works. I have been checking out
some tutorials and have noticed that some of them are for people with
prior programming expierence. My main question is this: should I
start with java or start with a different language to learn as my
first steps. Again, no expierence with any programming before (way
back in high school, but don't remember a single thing) but am willing
to put in the time and effort to learn.

Any suggestions would be great. Thanks.

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

So, I am a complete newb when it comes to programming and am wanting
to learn. Been clicking on stuff for years and finally want to learn
what makes what do what and how it works. I have been checking out
some tutorials and have noticed that some of them are for people with
prior programming expierence. My main question is this: should I
start with java or start with a different language to learn as my
first steps. Again, no expierence with any programming before (way
back in high school, but don't remember a single thing) but am willing
to put in the time and effort to learn.

Java is OK as a first language.

And one benefit is that you will find it very easy to find information
on the internet about it and find fora where you can get help.

Arne

 

[markspace]

Greetings,

So, I am a complete newb when it comes to programming and am wanting
to learn.

My advice: go to school.

You aren't going to get any serious work, or learning, done trying to
learn on your. Learning on own is going to be difficult, and won't be
taken seriously by an employer.

If a university is out of the question, consider a junior college or
trade school. If I personally had to hire someone, I'd consider hiring
someone with a 2 year degree or the first 2 years of college coursework
at a junior college before I'd hire someone who was self-taught. If you
don't have a related degree (math, science, etc.) then "I learned it
myself" is going to be a non-starter; I simply wouldn't hire anyone with
no degree at all.

That said, sure, Java is an acceptable language to start learning. It's
practical and used in the workplace, as well as being not too baroque
for a new student. Other acceptable choices might be C#, Ruby, Python,
C, or probably a few more I'm unaware of.

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

My advice: go to school.

You aren't going to get any serious work, or learning, done trying to
learn on your. Learning on own is going to be difficult, and won't be
taken seriously by an employer.

If a university is out of the question, consider a junior college or
trade school. If I personally had to hire someone, I'd consider hiring
someone with a 2 year degree or the first 2 years of college coursework
at a junior college before I'd hire someone who was self-taught. If you
don't have a related degree (math, science, etc.) then "I learned it
myself" is going to be a non-starter; I simply wouldn't hire anyone with
no degree at all.

That said, sure, Java is an acceptable language to start learning. It's
practical and used in the workplace, as well as being not too baroque
for a new student. Other acceptable choices might be C#, Ruby, Python,
C, or probably a few more I'm unaware of.

Pascal is still a very good language for learning programming.

I am skeptical about C# and Ruby - more complex than Java.

Arne

 

[Cainito]

Java is OK as a first language.

And one benefit is that you will find it very easy to find information
on the internet about it and find fora where you can get help.

Arne

Yes, there is tons of stuff on java, almost don't know where to
start. I have different sites with tutorials and that doesn't even
scratch the surface of the search results I got. Any recommended
beginner sites? Trying different sites. Getting slightly confused on
mains, methods, calls...guess I just need time to get use to java
terminology. Did the Hello World thing and had a giant smile on my
face. Wonder what it will feel like once I'm able to write an actual
program.

This is same who posted original post. Finally figured out how to
change my nick.

Thanks for response.

 

[Cainito]

My advice: go to school.

You aren't going to get any serious work, or learning, done trying to
learn on your.  Learning on own is going to be difficult, and won't be
taken seriously by an employer.

If a university is out of the question, consider a junior college or
trade school.  If I personally had to hire someone, I'd consider hiring
someone with a 2 year degree or the first 2 years of college coursework
at a junior college before I'd hire someone who was self-taught.  If you
don't have a related degree (math, science, etc.) then "I learned it
myself" is going to be a non-starter; I simply wouldn't hire anyone with
no degree at all.

That said, sure, Java is an acceptable language to start learning.  It's
practical and used in the workplace, as well as being not too baroque
for a new student.  Other acceptable choices might be C#, Ruby, Python,
C, or probably a few more I'm unaware of.

Starting a 2 year program this fall with plans (just plans, not sure
how funds/time will be 2 years from now) to get a bach later. Is a 2
year degree without the 4 year degree still good enough to get good
work and be considered for a job? I know the 4 year would be better,
but would a 2 year still get me the job (and money)? How much is a 4
year degree valued over a 2 year? Is it extreme or just slightly
better?

Thanks for response.

 

[Jeff Higgins]

Greetings,

So, I am a complete newb when it comes to programming and am wanting
to learn. Been clicking on stuff for years and finally want to learn
what makes what do what and how it works. I have been checking out
some tutorials and have noticed that some of them are for people with
prior programming expierence. My main question is this: should I
start with java or start with a different language to learn as my
first steps. Again, no expierence with any programming before (way
back in high school, but don't remember a single thing) but am willing
to put in the time and effort to learn.

Any suggestions would be great. Thanks.

There are a lot of levels of "what makes what do what and how it works".
Java is a fine language for many programming tasks, not so fine for
others. If you could pick a subject area of interest that would probably
narrow the choices of a language. Device drivers, dynamic HTML, etc.

Michael L. Scott
Programming Language Pragmatics
2000
ISBN 1-55860-442-1
For a great "what makes what do what and how it works" (on one level).

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

Yes, there is tons of stuff on java, almost don't know where to
start. I have different sites with tutorials and that doesn't even
scratch the surface of the search results I got. Any recommended
beginner sites? Trying different sites. Getting slightly confused on
mains, methods, calls...guess I just need time to get use to java
terminology. Did the Hello World thing and had a giant smile on my
face. Wonder what it will feel like once I'm able to write an actual
program.

I believe the best would be to get a good book and learn
Java from that.

For online tutorial then I would suggest the official
Java tutorial from SUN/Oracle.

Arne

 

[Jeff Higgins]

There are a lot of levels of "what makes what do what and how it works".
Java is a fine language for many programming tasks, not so fine for
others. If you could pick a subject area of interest that would probably
narrow the choices of a language. Device drivers, dynamic HTML, etc.

Michael L. Scott
Programming Language Pragmatics
2000
ISBN 1-55860-442-1
For a great "what makes what do what and how it works" (on one level).

I began learning Java with the help of "Core Java" many years ago.
It was in my opinion worth every cent I paid for it.
Now it is in a newer edition:
<http://www.horstmann.com/corejava.html>
These c.l.j.* groups have been an invaluable help over the years.

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

Starting a 2 year program this fall with plans (just plans, not sure
how funds/time will be 2 years from now) to get a bach later. Is a 2
year degree without the 4 year degree still good enough to get good
work and be considered for a job? I know the 4 year would be better,
but would a 2 year still get me the job (and money)? How much is a 4
year degree valued over a 2 year? Is it extreme or just slightly
better?

What geographical location? What type of job? When?

Regarding when then as a general rule in good economic times with
high demand for developers employers are less picky about education
while in bad times with low demand they can be more picky. We know
the economics of today but it is difficult to predict how it will be
in 2 or 4 years.

You can try and study salary statistics for 2yr/bachelor/master
at some salary site and do the math.

I believe that more education is better, so you should go for
bachelor preferably even a master.

But if circumstances does not allow it them 2 years are
certainly better than nothing.

Arne

 

[markspace]

I know the 4 year would be better,
but would a 2 year still get me the job (and money)? How much is a 4
year degree valued over a 2 year? Is it extreme or just slightly
better?

I can't say for sure. I personally would prefer a candidate who had two
years of a four year degree, to someone who went through a rushed or
simplified two year program. But that's totally an off the cuff answer,
please take it with a large grain of salt.

One way to answer this is to look at employers in your area, or
employers you would like to work for. Ask them. Would they consider a
two year degree? The answer is likely to vary a lot, and will depend on
the type of job you are applying for.

One option I didn't see: start on your 4 year degree, then work part
time too. It's harder (I worked my way through college), but it also
gives you perspective and some work experience. If money is the issue,
you can take a break from college to earn some money, then return (make
sure to do this formally, i.e., talk to your department chair/dean and
fill out the appropriate paperwork.) Employers *do* like to higher
students. They're getting a relatively good deal on training versus
wage. You should plan on spending 6 to 8 years on a bachelor's degree
if you work seriously, don't try to do so much that it affects your GPA.

 

[Cainito]

I can't say for sure.  I personally would prefer a candidate who had two
years of a four year degree, to someone who went through a rushed or
simplified two year program.  But that's totally an off the cuff answer,
please take it with a large grain of salt.

One way to answer this is to look at employers in your area, or
employers you would like to work for.  Ask them.  Would they considera
two year degree?  The answer is likely to vary a lot, and will depend on
the type of job you are applying for.

One option I didn't see: start on your 4 year degree, then work part
time too.  It's harder (I worked my way through college), but it also
gives you perspective and some work experience.  If money is the issue,
you can take a break from college to earn some money, then return (make
sure to do this formally, i.e., talk to your department chair/dean and
fill out the appropriate paperwork.)  Employers *do* like to higher
students.  They're getting a relatively good deal on training versus
wage.  You should plan on spending 6 to 8 years on a bachelor's degree
if you work seriously, don't try to do so much that it affects your GPA.

Thanks for the advice. The bachelor's degree does sound better than
the AAS, not to mention employers will value it more, and not to
mention myself. Money shouldn't be a problem with work and FAFSA I
get. Won't be on big balla status, but I'll eat and have a roof over
my head. Think I need to change my program to a transfer degree
(current program, some of my credits won't transfer to any university
that is near where I live).

All have been very helpful, and the tutorials aren't too bad. Just
have to keep at it, one of these days I'll understand....at least I
better if I want a future in programming.

Thanks again for all the responses.

 

[Gene Wirchenko]

[snip]

One option I didn't see: start on your 4 year degree, then work part
time too. It's harder (I worked my way through college), but it also
gives you perspective and some work experience. If money is the issue,
you can take a break from college to earn some money, then return (make
sure to do this formally, i.e., talk to your department chair/dean and
fill out the appropriate paperwork.) Employers *do* like to higher
students. They're getting a relatively good deal on training versus
wage. You should plan on spending 6 to 8 years on a bachelor's degree
if you work seriously, don't try to do so much that it affects your GPA.

Another related possibility is to get a two-year diploma that
ladders into a degree. (All of my two-year program credits were
accepted on the four-year degree. You lose some elective choice, but
you also do not have to take things over.)

My experience is not OP's. I already had a lot of experience. I
could get funding for a two-year program, and I paid for the third and
fourth years myself.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

 

[Roedy Green]

Greetings,

So, I am a complete newb when it comes to programming and am wanting
to learn. Been clicking on stuff for years and finally want to learn
what makes what do what and how it works. I have been checking out
some tutorials and have noticed that some of them are for people with
prior programming expierence. My main question is this: should I
start with java or start with a different language to learn as my
first steps. Again, no expierence with any programming before (way
back in high school, but don't remember a single thing) but am willing
to put in the time and effort to learn.

Any suggestions would be great. Thanks.

for my generic advice see
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/gettingstarted.html

Java can be used for all manner of things. There are various
specialised languages that can beat it for a particular niche. It
sounds like you want to get an understanding of the principles of
programming. For that Java's weaknesses will not get too much in the
way. Look at the ads. I have not looked for a while, but I think you
will still find most jobs want Java.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
Programmers love to create simplified replacements for HTML.
They forget that the simplest language is the one you
already know. They also forget that their simple little
markup language will bit by bit become even more convoluted
and complicated than HTML because of the unplanned way it grows.
..

 

[Stefan Ram]

prior programming expierence. My main question is this: should I
start with java or start with a different language to learn as my
first steps.

Depends on why you want to learn programming.
Less biased answers might be available in comp.lang.misc.

 

[Lew]

prior programming expierence. My main question is this: should I
start with java [sic] or start with a different language to learn as my
first steps.

Depends on why you want to learn programming.
Less biased answers might be available in comp.lang.misc.

As others have answered, Java is all right as a first programming language, provided
one understands not to stop with just one.

I have seen no bias in the answers here to this question, so how much would be less?

 

[Arved Sandstrom]

My advice: go to school.

You aren't going to get any serious work, or learning, done trying to
learn on your. Learning on own is going to be difficult, and won't be
taken seriously by an employer.

If a university is out of the question, consider a junior college or
trade school. If I personally had to hire someone, I'd consider hiring
someone with a 2 year degree or the first 2 years of college coursework
at a junior college before I'd hire someone who was self-taught. If you
don't have a related degree (math, science, etc.) then "I learned it
myself" is going to be a non-starter; I simply wouldn't hire anyone with
no degree at all.

That said, sure, Java is an acceptable language to start learning. It's
practical and used in the workplace, as well as being not too baroque
for a new student. Other acceptable choices might be C#, Ruby, Python,
C, or probably a few more I'm unaware of.

I'm not an HR guy myself, so don't take this as advice, OP, these are
just observations. What I actually value is domain knowledge and
experience in software development. Note that I said "software
development", not "coding". Proven experience in delivering good
software applications is the ultimate litmus test. It's documented
critical thinking, and you only assess that by looking at years and
years of experience.

Domain knowledge is the other biggie. If you thoroughly understand
problem domains from the perspective of a business user then you are
worth your weight in gold. If you are _starting_ to understand a problem
domain that's good too. For example, understanding accounting or
mathematics or an engineering discipline, or having enough knowledge of
the health industry to pursue health informatics, or having a biology
background so as to pursue bio-informatics, or knowing document
management, or legal procedures, etc etc - these are all more valuable
than knowing only how to program.

If you're starting off as a novice then you've got none of that, neither
the software engineering experience nor the domain knowledge. But a
diploma or degree - in a very wide variety of fields - is a good
launching point into domain knowledge. For example, study modern
surveying and if you keep your eyes open you can be programming GIS
before you know it. Just one example.

When I look at a resume - and I look at a lot of resumes - what
interests me is what problems did a candidate solve, not what technology
they used to solve it. OK, for some specialized technology skills that
take years to acquire, that's valuable knowledge in and of itself - very
few programming languages fall into that category, though.

So if I look at an application from someone new in the field -
practically no experience - not even serious programming chops are going
to interest me much. Not without some other knowledge it's not. I need
to see some thirst for knowledge in problem domains, not just an
interest in coding for coding's sake.

That's my take on it. I've got formal physics and engineering myself.
Some of the best programmers I've worked with have (or had) history or
English or music. Others came from a business background. A really good
combo that I've seen proven time and time again is some real-world
experience in *something* overlaid with a 2 year IT diploma.

Just my observations. Take 'em for what they're worth.

AHS

 

[Jeff Higgins]

There are a lot of levels of "what makes what do what and how it works".
Java is a fine language for many programming tasks, not so fine for
others. If you could pick a subject area of interest that would probably
narrow the choices of a language. Device drivers, dynamic HTML, etc.

Michael L. Scott
Programming Language Pragmatics
2000
ISBN 1-55860-442-1
For a great "what makes what do what and how it works" (on one level).

I just found this, and it looks like it will be an interesting read.
<http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html>

 

[Lew]

I just found this, and it looks like it will be an interesting read.
<http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html>

Bookmarked. Thank you.

Theory works, interestingly enough.

I wanted to learn Prolog once, so I read a textbook on predicate logic
featuring Horne clauses. This helped.

Not that I remember that stuff now, but once your brain gets certain grooves
worn it's never quite the same again.

The flip side is that learning such things improves your mental versatility.
Someone in these threads asked a while back about how you break into a new
area when you need experience to get a job in that area, and your private
learning isn't going to impress.

Weirdly, I've mostly seen the opposite problem - being hired by folks
deliberately for languages or platforms that one has never even seen, much
less used, quite on purpose and with the expectation that one will master it
in, oh, a day, maybe two. I've had people gripe at three days and never
anyone happy with a week.

The (meta-)skills of rapid learning are critical to survival. Especially if
you need quick, short-term work to tide you over a hump. Trust me, it happens.

How can you metalearn better? By understanding the tree from which you pluck
the fruit.

 

[Jeff Higgins]

Bookmarked. Thank you.

Theory works, interestingly enough.

I wanted to learn Prolog once, so I read a textbook on predicate logic
featuring Horne clauses. This helped.

Not that I remember that stuff now, but once your brain gets certain
grooves worn it's never quite the same again.

The flip side is that learning such things improves your mental
versatility. Someone in these threads asked a while back about how you
break into a new area when you need experience to get a job in that
area, and your private learning isn't going to impress.

Weirdly, I've mostly seen the opposite problem - being hired by folks
deliberately for languages or platforms that one has never even seen,
much less used, quite on purpose and with the expectation that one will
master it in, oh, a day, maybe two. I've had people gripe at three days
and never anyone happy with a week.

The (meta-)skills of rapid learning are critical to survival. Especially
if you need quick, short-term work to tide you over a hump. Trust me, it
happens.

How can you metalearn better? By understanding the tree from which you
pluck the fruit.

Reading a history of computing languages may help the OP also.
I've found it easier to learn new things when I have had a good overview
and can kinda see the big picture.

Recently I've been trying to learn the Lisp language. I have
spent some hours with online tutorial and books but somehow felt
like I wasn't "getting it". After finding and spending more hours
reading an old Lisp 1.5 Manual by the originator of the language I
feel like I am finally able to "grok" the Lisp paradigm.

Likewise, when I began using the Linux OS, I spent a long time
feeling like I just wasn't getting it. A coworker suggested I
read, and lent me a copy of "The Unix Programming Environment"
by Rob Pike, a several decade old manual. I was skeptical but It
turned out to be just what I needed to get me finally comfortable
with the environment.

Sometimes the old fundamental stuff can really help.