Newsgroup for beginners

Discussion in 'Python' started by mrholtsr, Nov 16, 2009.

  1. mrholtsr

    mrholtsr Guest

    Is there a Python newsgroup for those who are strictly beginners at
    programming and python?
     
    mrholtsr, Nov 16, 2009
    #1
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  2. Diez B. Roggisch, Nov 16, 2009
    #2
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  3. mrholtsr

    Chris Rebert Guest

    Chris Rebert, Nov 16, 2009
    #3
  4. mrholtsr

    Tim Chase Guest

    Tim Chase, Nov 16, 2009
    #4
  5. mrholtsr

    Terry Reedy Guest

    mrholtsr wrote:
    > Is there a Python newsgroup for those who are strictly beginners at
    > programming and python?


    gmane.comp.python.tutor, which I believe mirrors the tutor-list
     
    Terry Reedy, Nov 16, 2009
    #5
  6. On Nov 16, 8:35 am, Terry Reedy <> wrote:
    > mrholtsr wrote:
    > > Is there a Python newsgroup for those who are strictly beginners at
    > > programming and python?

    >
    > gmane.comp.python.tutor, which I believe mirrors the tutor-list


    There also is a beginner's forum at python-forum.org:

    http://www.python-forum.org/pythonforum/viewforum.php?f=3
     
    George Oliver, Nov 16, 2009
    #6
  7. mrholtsr

    Paul Rubin Guest

    mrholtsr <> writes:
    > Is there a Python newsgroup for those who are strictly beginners at
    > programming and python?


    This group has its grouchy moments but for the most part it's
    reasonably friendly to beginners. The worst thing that usually
    happens is that if you ask a simple question, a bunch of experts will
    show off their knowledge to each other by giving you insanely
    complicated answers that you have no reason to want to understand.
    But they're not exactly being hostile when they do that. They're just
    really really into advanced Python programming. So go ahead and ask
    your questions. The first responses will probably be the most
    helpful, after which the response thread will go off into nerdy
    tangents that you can ignore.
     
    Paul Rubin, Nov 17, 2009
    #7
  8. On 2009-11-17, Paul Rubin <http> wrote:
    > mrholtsr <> writes:
    >> Is there a Python newsgroup for those who are strictly beginners at
    >> programming and python?

    >
    > This group has its grouchy moments


    You've really got to try pretty hard to create one. But if you
    want to, here's how to do it:

    1) Start by complaining that your program doesn't work because
    of a bug in Python.

    2) Python programs are portable, so don't reveal what OS or
    Python version you're using. People will ask. Just ignore
    them.

    2) State that your program "doesn't work", but don't explain
    either what you expect it to do or what it actually does.

    3) Don't post the code that you're having problems with.

    4) Once people start to get annoyed that you won't post any
    example code showing the problem you're having, then you
    post code.

    a) Post lots of code. The bigger the program the better;
    try for at least 500 lines -- but make sure that you
    leave out a few functions and "import" some libraries
    nobody has ever heard of.

    b) Post code that doesn't match the code who's behaviour
    you're describing (remember: be vague and be careful
    not to actually show real input or output at this
    point).

    c) For maximum effect try to make sure that what you post
    won't compile by inserting typos and changing the
    indentation in a few places.

    5) Once you've stalled as long as possible you want to post
    code that will comipile and run. Now we move on to example
    inout and output.

    a) post output from a _different_ version of the program
    than what you're running.

    b) post input to and output from your program, but make
    sure that the output was generated with input
    differenent that what was posted.

    c) rather than cutting/pasting input and output, make sure
    you manually retype it into your posting --
    inaccurately.

    In any other newsgroup, you'd have been burnt to a crisp and
    plonked long before getting this far, but in c.l.p there are
    still going to be a few people trying to help you. Now is the
    time to start making snide comments about how it would be so
    much easier in VB/Perl/C++ (pick whichever one you know the
    most about).

    Pick a feature from VB/Perl/C++ unrelated to the original
    problem and start demanding that it be added to Python so that
    you can use it to make your program work.

    For the final touch, forget about the original "bug" and start
    to wax philosophic about how this is just another typical
    example of the problems with Python, open-source, mass transit,
    the designated hitter, auto-tune, people who like cats, and the
    dewey decimal system. Use lots of poetic-sounding but
    nonsensical metaphors.

    It'll take several days and a fair bit of work, but you will be
    able to produce a some grouchy responses in c.l.p.

    > but for the most part it's reasonably friendly to beginners.
    > The worst thing that usually happens is that if you ask a
    > simple question, a bunch of experts will show off their
    > knowledge to each other by giving you insanely complicated
    > answers that you have no reason to want to understand.


    That usually happens when the question is vague and incomplete
    enough so that people have to guess what is being asked. Some
    people tend to guess more "interesting" questions than others.

    One will also get rather arcane answers when a poorly thought
    out question is answered literally. IOW, somebody asks "how to
    I do B?" when B _really_ isn't something anybody is going to
    want to in Python, but if you twist the language around enough
    you can actually _do_ B (even if it's quite pointless). The
    real question was "how do I accomplish A", but the poster
    having incorrectly assumed the answer is B, didn't ask "how do
    I accomplish A?"

    They're really not trying to torture beginners, they just think
    it's interesting trying to figure out a way to do B.

    Even if you do get some obscure answers, others will always
    figure out that what you really wanted to know was "how do I
    accomplish A" and tell you the best way to accomplish A and why
    B isn't what you want to do.

    --
    Grant
     
    Grant Edwards, Nov 17, 2009
    #8
  9. mrholtsr

    Tim Chase Guest

    > 1) Start by complaining that your program doesn't work because
    > of a bug in Python.


    1b) Omit the fact that this is a homework problem, and you want
    c.l.p to do your homework for you

    > 4) Once people start to get annoyed that you won't post any
    > example code showing the problem you're having, then you
    > post code.
    >
    > a) Post lots of code. The bigger the program the better;
    > try for at least 500 lines -- but make sure that you
    > leave out a few functions and "import" some libraries
    > nobody has ever heard of.
    >
    > b) Post code that doesn't match the code who's behaviour
    > you're describing (remember: be vague and be careful
    > not to actually show real input or output at this
    > point).
    >
    > c) For maximum effect try to make sure that what you post
    > won't compile by inserting typos and changing the
    > indentation in a few places.


    d) you post a link to your uploaded code on some code-sharing
    site that requires the latest versions of JavaScript, Flash,
    Silverlight, Java, and requires cookies to be enabled just to
    read your flippin' code.

    > c) rather than cutting/pasting input and output, make sure
    > you manually retype it into your posting --
    > inaccurately.


    [sheepish grin] Guilty as charged on at least one occasion.


    > It'll take several days and a fair bit of work, but you will be
    > able to produce a some grouchy responses in c.l.p.


    oh, shut up! ;-)

    > One will also get rather arcane answers when a poorly thought
    > out question is answered literally. IOW, somebody asks "how to
    > I do B?" when B _really_ isn't something anybody is going to
    > want to in Python, but if you twist the language around enough
    > you can actually _do_ B (even if it's quite pointless). The
    > real question was "how do I accomplish A", but the poster
    > having incorrectly assumed the answer is B, didn't ask "how do
    > I accomplish A?"


    "But why can't I use regular expressions to do...?" :)

    Even the best Pythoneers get grouchy ("This parrot wouldn't VOOM
    if you put 4 million volts through it!")

    -tkc
     
    Tim Chase, Nov 17, 2009
    #9
  10. mrholtsr

    Aahz Guest

    In article <hdt6tb$9du$>,
    Grant Edwards <> wrote:
    >
    >You've really got to try pretty hard to create one. But if you
    >want to, here's how to do it:
    >
    > 1) Start by complaining that your program doesn't work because
    > of a bug in Python.
    >
    > [...]


    Post of the month!
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
    Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by
    definition, not smart enough to debug it." --Brian W. Kernighan
     
    Aahz, Nov 19, 2009
    #10
  11. mrholtsr

    Ethan Furman Guest

    Aahz wrote:
    > In article <hdt6tb$9du$>,
    > Grant Edwards <> wrote:
    >
    >>You've really got to try pretty hard to create one. But if you
    >>want to, here's how to do it:
    >>
    >>1) Start by complaining that your program doesn't work because
    >> of a bug in Python.
    >>
    >> [...]

    >
    >
    > Post of the month!


    I'll second that! I really needed a good laugh. Many thanks!
     
    Ethan Furman, Nov 20, 2009
    #11
  12. mrholtsr

    Guest

    On 20 nov, 20:42, Ethan Furman <> wrote:
    > Aahz wrote:
    > > In article <hdt6tb$>,
    > > Grant Edwards  <> wrote:

    >
    > >>You've really got to try pretty hard to create one.  But if you
    > >>want to, here's how to do it:

    >
    > >>1) Start by complaining that your program doesn't work because
    > >>   of a bug in Python.

    >
    > >> [...]

    >
    > > Post of the month!

    >
    > I'll second that!  I really needed a good laugh.  Many thanks!


    So I'll thrice it - FWIW it indeed made it's way to the weekly python
    (thanks the python-url team), but deserves much more than that. I was
    so hilarious my son came out of it's room and even tried to read the
    post by himself - I just wasn't able to calm down and explain him what
    this was about.

    Grant, if we ever meet, remind me to pay you a couple beers. Cheers !
     
    , Nov 24, 2009
    #12
  13. mrholtsr

    John Machin Guest

    On Nov 17, 2:56 pm, Grant Edwards <> wrote:
    > On 2009-11-17, Paul Rubin <http> wrote:
    >
    > > mrholtsr <> writes:
    > >> Is there a Python newsgroup for those who are strictly beginners at
    > >> programming and python?

    >
    > > This group has its grouchy moments

    >
    > You've really got to try pretty hard to create one.  But if you
    > want to, here's how to do it:

    [snip]
    >  2) Python programs are portable, so don't reveal what OS or
    >     Python version you're using.  People will ask. Just ignore
    >     them.


    Don't supply a traceback, lest you inadvertently divulge such
    information (and more!) e.g.

    File "C:\python26\lib\encodings\cp1252.py", line 15, in decode

    A good safeguard against accidental disclosure of your Python version
    is to avoid using the default installation folder:

    File "C:\snake_teehee_ima_comedian\lib\etc_etc"

    This technique, used in a question like "How can I have multiple
    versions of Python installed" gives a good chance of getting a grumpy
    response.
     
    John Machin, Nov 24, 2009
    #13
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