no! you idiots at Oracle

Discussion in 'Java' started by Roedy Green, Nov 9, 2010.

  1. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    Oracle is "reforming" the Sun website.

    Changes look like typically this:

    from:
    http://java.sun.com/products/plugin/?frontpage-javaplatform

    to:
    http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/index-jsp-141438.html

    The important thing is there is NO pattern to this. Every one of
    thousands of links out there in the world to the Sun site will
    eventually have to be manually updated. ARRGGH!

    I do some of my links manually and but most are computer-generated
    from patterns. These nincompoops have destroyed all sense of order and
    made all the links unmemorisable.

    It is one thing to create an incompetent system, but quite another to
    break a reasonable system to make it deliberately incompetent.

    I guess I will have to automate the process by at least mechanically
    preparing a CSV file of old and new URLS for individual links, and
    writing a global search/replace. But I am not the only one with a
    website with many Sun links.

    It will all go pear-shaped over time.

    On top of that, response time is WORSE. What the Bleep? There are now
    more servers. Response should be better.
    --
    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    http://mindprod.com

    Finding a bug is a sign you were asleep a the switch when coding. Stop debugging, and go back over your code line by line.
     
    Roedy Green, Nov 9, 2010
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. In article <>,
    Roedy Green <> wrote:

    > Oracle is "reforming" the Sun website.
    >
    > Changes look like typically this:
    >
    > from:
    > http://java.sun.com/products/plugin/?frontpage-javaplatform
    >
    > to:
    > http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/index-jsp-141438.html
    >
    > The important thing is there is NO pattern to this. Every one of
    > thousands of links out there in the world to the Sun site will
    > eventually have to be manually updated. ARRGGH!
    >
    > I do some of my links manually and but most are computer-generated
    > from patterns. These nincompoops have destroyed all sense of order and
    > made all the links unmemorisable.
    >
    > It is one thing to create an incompetent system, but quite another to
    > break a reasonable system to make it deliberately incompetent.
    >
    > I guess I will have to automate the process by at least mechanically
    > preparing a CSV file of old and new URLS for individual links, and
    > writing a global search/replace. But I am not the only one with a
    > website with many Sun links.
    >
    > It will all go pear-shaped over time.
    >
    > On top of that, response time is WORSE. What the Bleep? There are now
    > more servers. Response should be better.


    It's great when Java documentation references an important URL and it's
    404-acled. Couldn't Oracle have maintained a URL translation table.
    Surely it could be stored in, I dunno, a database?
    --
    I will not see posts or email from Google because I must filter them as spam
     
    Kevin McMurtrie, Nov 9, 2010
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. On 11/09/2010 06:57 AM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
    > In article<>,
    > Roedy Green<> wrote:
    >
    >> Oracle is "reforming" the Sun website.
    >>
    >> Changes look like typically this:
    >>
    >> from:
    >> http://java.sun.com/products/plugin/?frontpage-javaplatform
    >>
    >> to:
    >> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/index-jsp-141438.html
    >>
    >> The important thing is there is NO pattern to this. Every one of
    >> thousands of links out there in the world to the Sun site will
    >> eventually have to be manually updated. ARRGGH!
    >>
    >> I do some of my links manually and but most are computer-generated
    >> from patterns. These nincompoops have destroyed all sense of order and
    >> made all the links unmemorisable.


    > It's great when Java documentation references an important URL and it's
    > 404-acled. Couldn't Oracle have maintained a URL translation table.
    > Surely it could be stored in, I dunno, a database?


    A nice example of what happens if an API is not kept stable across
    versions...

    Cheers

    robert
     
    Robert Klemme, Nov 9, 2010
    #3
  4. Roedy Green

    markspace Guest

    On 11/8/2010 7:39 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
    > Oracle is "reforming" the Sun website.
    >
    > Changes look like typically this:
    >
    > from:
    > http://java.sun.com/products/plugin/?frontpage-javaplatform



    For each link you have like the one above, fetch the contents and check
    sum (MD5?) it. Then spider the Oracle site for links you don't have,
    and checksum each result fetched. Keep the old URL with the checksum in
    a database.

    >
    > to:
    > http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/index-jsp-141438.html



    Then for each check sum that matches, you probably have a match. Either
    compare the contents directly, or maybe a close comparison (ignore
    whitespace, or something like that, if necessary).

    Now you have a database of old and new links. Not only can you update
    your own site, you can provide a service for others to look-up old Sun
    links and provide them with the new correct Oracle link. Maybe even
    Oracle would be interested.
     
    markspace, Nov 9, 2010
    #4
  5. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Mon, 08 Nov 2010 21:57:18 -0800, Kevin McMurtrie
    <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone
    who said :

    >It's great when Java documentation references an important URL and it's
    >404-acled. Couldn't Oracle have maintained a URL translation table.
    >Surely it could be stored in, I dunno, a database?


    They must have one internally, since for a while the old URLs will
    work. If they published it, perhaps with a tool, then people could
    update their websites automatically, at least for the non-generated
    URLs.

    I suppose I am unusual in the number of references I have. What other
    sites have lots of references? Perhaps we could combine forces to
    save us all some work.

    --
    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    http://mindprod.com

    Finding a bug is a sign you were asleep a the switch when coding. Stop debugging, and go back over your code line by line.
     
    Roedy Green, Nov 9, 2010
    #5
  6. On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 10:11:52 -0800, markspace wrote:

    > On 11/8/2010 7:39 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
    >> Oracle is "reforming" the Sun website.
    >>
    >> Changes look like typically this:
    >>
    >> from:
    >> http://java.sun.com/products/plugin/?frontpage-javaplatform

    >
    >
    > For each link you have like the one above, fetch the contents and check
    > sum (MD5?) it. Then spider the Oracle site for links you don't have,
    > and checksum each result fetched. Keep the old URL with the checksum in
    > a database.
    >
    >
    >> to:
    >> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/index-jsp-141438.html

    >
    >
    > Then for each check sum that matches, you probably have a match. Either
    > compare the contents directly, or maybe a close comparison (ignore
    > whitespace, or something like that, if necessary).


    That's not gonna work if they've rebranded all the pages with Oracle in
    place of Sun, Oracle navbars at top/left instead of Sun's, etc.

    Just the replacement of all the internal link URLs will suffice.

    So you have to do a Bayesian match based on word frequencies instead. ;)
     
    ClassCastException, Nov 9, 2010
    #6
  7. On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 12:30:53 -0800, Roedy Green wrote:

    > On Mon, 08 Nov 2010 21:57:18 -0800, Kevin McMurtrie
    > <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone
    > who said :
    >
    >>It's great when Java documentation references an important URL and it's
    >>404-acled. Couldn't Oracle have maintained a URL translation table.
    >>Surely it could be stored in, I dunno, a database?

    >
    > They must have one internally, since for a while the old URLs will work.
    > If they published it, perhaps with a tool, then people could update
    > their websites automatically, at least for the non-generated URLs.


    If the Sun URLs in question all still worked, and were 300-series
    redirects, then it'd be easy to write a tool to find all the old Sun
    links in a corpus of HTML and snap them directly to the new URLs.

    Unfortunately, as of right now java.sun.com seems to time out rather than
    connect at all.
     
    ClassCastException, Nov 9, 2010
    #7
  8. Roedy Green

    markspace Guest

    On 11/9/2010 12:56 PM, ClassCastException wrote:
    >
    > That's not gonna work if they've rebranded all the pages with Oracle in
    > place of Sun, Oracle navbars at top/left instead of Sun's, etc.
    >
    > Just the replacement of all the internal link URLs will suffice.
    >
    > So you have to do a Bayesian match based on word frequencies instead. ;)



    The two pages appear to be identical, including the targets for anchors.
    I didn't actually do a diff.
     
    markspace, Nov 9, 2010
    #8
  9. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Mon, 08 Nov 2010 19:39:44 -0800, Roedy Green
    <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    someone who said :

    >
    >The important thing is there is NO pattern to this. Every one of
    >thousands of links out there in the world to the Sun site will
    >eventually have to be manually updated. ARRGGH!



    A bit of both good and bad news. Oracle has simplified its new URLs a
    bit.

    http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E17409_01/javase/tutorial/essential/regex/quant.html

    becomes

    http://download.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/essential/regex/quant.html

    The old ones no longer work.


    --
    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    http://mindprod.com

    Finding a bug is a sign you were asleep a the switch when coding. Stop debugging, and go back over your code line by line.
     
    Roedy Green, Nov 9, 2010
    #9
  10. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Mon, 08 Nov 2010 19:39:44 -0800, Roedy Green
    <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    someone who said :

    >
    >The important thing is there is NO pattern to this. Every one of
    >thousands of links out there in the world to the Sun site will
    >eventually have to be manually updated. ARRGGH!


    I have discovered another distressing thing about the Sun->Oracle
    website transition. Oracle's temporary redirects don't necessarily
    take you to the specific page. They often just take to you a generic
    menu page. All the links have to be researched afresh. Spidering is
    more difficult than one might think, because of varying dynamic
    content, and sheer size of the Oracle/Sun websites. Further, it would
    only work properly if Oracle's temporary redirects were correct, so
    there is no point in spidering the entire Oracle website, just your
    own.

    What were these people thinking? I think they totally forgot that
    there are extensive links to the Sun site out there. On my website
    alone there are 2465 links.


    --
    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    http://mindprod.com

    Finding a bug is a sign you were asleep a the switch when coding. Stop debugging, and go back over your code line by line.
     
    Roedy Green, Nov 9, 2010
    #10
  11. Roedy Green

    BGB Guest

    On 11/9/2010 2:56 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
    > On Mon, 08 Nov 2010 19:39:44 -0800, Roedy Green
    > <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    > someone who said :
    >
    >>
    >> The important thing is there is NO pattern to this. Every one of
    >> thousands of links out there in the world to the Sun site will
    >> eventually have to be manually updated. ARRGGH!

    >
    > I have discovered another distressing thing about the Sun->Oracle
    > website transition. Oracle's temporary redirects don't necessarily
    > take you to the specific page. They often just take to you a generic
    > menu page. All the links have to be researched afresh. Spidering is
    > more difficult than one might think, because of varying dynamic
    > content, and sheer size of the Oracle/Sun websites. Further, it would
    > only work properly if Oracle's temporary redirects were correct, so
    > there is no point in spidering the entire Oracle website, just your
    > own.
    >
    > What were these people thinking? I think they totally forgot that
    > there are extensive links to the Sun site out there. On my website
    > alone there are 2465 links.
    >
    >



    depending on others' URLs is inherently unsafe anyways...

    but, yes, it is annoying some, as it makes looking for info related to
    my own VM effort more difficult.
     
    BGB, Nov 10, 2010
    #11
  12. On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:11:12 -0800, markspace wrote:

    > On 11/9/2010 12:56 PM, ClassCastException wrote:
    >>
    >> That's not gonna work if they've rebranded all the pages with Oracle in
    >> place of Sun, Oracle navbars at top/left instead of Sun's, etc.
    >>
    >> Just the replacement of all the internal link URLs will suffice.
    >>
    >> So you have to do a Bayesian match based on word frequencies instead.
    >> ;)

    >
    >
    > The two pages appear to be identical, including the targets for anchors.
    > I didn't actually do a diff.


    I meant site-internal links, not page-internal links. I doubt they'll all
    tend to be relative URLs with the relative directory structure unchanged.
    Not to mention changing the navbars, or even just changing an <img
    src=sunlogo.jpg> to <img src=oraclelogo.jpg> somewhere near the top of
    the page, will change the hash of a page dramatically.
     
    ClassCastException, Nov 10, 2010
    #12
  13. Roedy Green

    The Frog Guest

    FWIW this seemingly moronic approach to handling technology that
    Oracle is displaying here with the rebranding process seems typical of
    their entire philosophy IMO. I have only ever seen one other group
    take something that should be actually quite simple and screw it
    systematically so badly - oh wait, thats Oracle again.....

    The Frog
     
    The Frog, Nov 10, 2010
    #13
  14. Roedy Green wrote:
    > On Mon, 08 Nov 2010 19:39:44 -0800, Roedy Green
    > <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    > someone who said :
    >
    >>
    >> The important thing is there is NO pattern to this. Every one of
    >> thousands of links out there in the world to the Sun site will
    >> eventually have to be manually updated. ARRGGH!

    >
    > I have discovered another distressing thing about the Sun->Oracle
    > website transition. Oracle's temporary redirects don't necessarily
    > take you to the specific page. They often just take to you a generic
    > menu page. All the links have to be researched afresh. Spidering is
    > more difficult than one might think, because of varying dynamic
    > content, and sheer size of the Oracle/Sun websites. Further, it would
    > only work properly if Oracle's temporary redirects were correct, so
    > there is no point in spidering the entire Oracle website, just your
    > own.
    >
    > What were these people thinking? I think they totally forgot that
    > there are extensive links to the Sun site out there. On my website
    > alone there are 2465 links.


    Maybe it's time for a URL subscription protocol. Without speculating on the
    fine details, rather than put an essentially dumb link in one of your own
    pages, you embed a smart link which is a subscription to a URL service. The
    service can either provide a constantly updated "hard" version of the
    correct URL, or service providers can undertake to proxy you when you click
    on the link and go to _them_...your choice when you configure. Like I say
    I'm doing a bit of handwaving here, at this stage. :) Web pages that are
    interested in playing nice as sources also register with URL subscription
    services, so that they can provide notifications of changes such as what
    just now disrupted you.

    Just a thought. There may even be stuff like that out there, but I've never
    heard of any.

    AHS
    --
    Hanging one scoundrel, it appears, does not deter the next. Well, what
    of it? The first one is at least disposed of. -- H.L. Mencken
     
    Arved Sandstrom, Nov 10, 2010
    #14
  15. Roedy Green

    Tony Proctor Guest

    "Roedy Green" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Oracle is "reforming" the Sun website.
    >
    > Changes look like typically this:
    >
    > from:
    > http://java.sun.com/products/plugin/?frontpage-javaplatform
    >
    > to:
    > http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/index-jsp-141438.html
    >
    > The important thing is there is NO pattern to this. Every one of
    > thousands of links out there in the world to the Sun site will
    > eventually have to be manually updated. ARRGGH!
    >
    > I do some of my links manually and but most are computer-generated
    > from patterns. These nincompoops have destroyed all sense of order and
    > made all the links unmemorisable.
    >
    > It is one thing to create an incompetent system, but quite another to
    > break a reasonable system to make it deliberately incompetent.
    >
    > I guess I will have to automate the process by at least mechanically
    > preparing a CSV file of old and new URLS for individual links, and
    > writing a global search/replace. But I am not the only one with a
    > website with many Sun links.
    >
    > It will all go pear-shaped over time.
    >
    > On top of that, response time is WORSE. What the Bleep? There are now
    > more servers. Response should be better.
    > --
    > Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    > http://mindprod.com
    >
    > Finding a bug is a sign you were asleep a the switch when coding. Stop
    > debugging, and go back over your code line by line.


    This type of re-branding is surprisingly naive by Oracle! They would be
    better off giving Java it's own "brand" (possibly even resurrecting
    something like javasoft) so that all this Web collateral can remain constant
    in the future.

    As it is, if Oracle gets hard-up and needs to flog Java to someone else,
    this tight branding will reduce the value because any enlightened company
    will know how much of a PITA undoing-it or changing-it will be

    Tony Proctor
     
    Tony Proctor, Nov 12, 2010
    #15
  16. On Nov 12, 11:38 am, "Tony Proctor" <tony@proctor_NoMore_SPAM.net>
    wrote:
    > "Roedy Green" <> wrote in message
    >
    > news:...
    >
    >
    >
    > > Oracle is "reforming" the Sun website.

    >
    > > Changes look like typically this:

    >
    > > from:
    > >http://java.sun.com/products/plugin/?frontpage-javaplatform

    >
    > > to:
    > >http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/index-jsp-141438.html

    >
    > > The important thing is there is NO pattern to this.  Every one of
    > > thousands of links out there in the world to the Sun site will
    > > eventually have to be manually updated. ARRGGH!

    >
    > > I do some of my links manually and but most are computer-generated
    > > from patterns. These nincompoops have destroyed all sense of order and
    > > made all the links unmemorisable.

    >
    > > It is one thing to create an incompetent system, but quite another to
    > > break a reasonable system to make it deliberately incompetent.

    >
    > > I guess I will have to automate the process by at least mechanically
    > > preparing a CSV file of old and new URLS for individual links, and
    > > writing a global search/replace.  But I am not the only one with a
    > > website with many Sun links.

    >
    > > It will all go pear-shaped over time.

    >
    > > On top of that, response time is WORSE.  What the Bleep? There are now
    > > more servers.  Response should be better.
    > > --
    > > Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    > >http://mindprod.com

    >
    > > Finding a bug is a sign you were asleep a the switch when coding. Stop
    > > debugging, and go back over your code line by line.

    >
    > This type of re-branding is surprisingly naive by Oracle! They would be
    > better off giving Java it's own "brand" (possibly even resurrecting
    > something like javasoft) so that all this Web collateral can remain constant
    > in the future.
    >
    > As it is, if Oracle gets hard-up and needs to flog Java to someone else,
    > this tight branding will reduce the value because any enlightened company
    > will know how much of a PITA undoing-it or changing-it will be
    >
    >     Tony Proctor


    I'm disheartened about all this. Frankly, Java (as a concept and
    anthropomorphised) has taken it on the chin for a little too long
    now. As soon as I learned of the sun purchase, I knew that the Not-
    Invented-Here mongers were going to take over and @#$% up quite a
    bit. I'm finally caving in and viewing Java as unstoppably headed for
    footnote status.
     
    Thomas G. Marshall, Nov 12, 2010
    #16
  17. Roedy Green

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 12-11-2010 16:39, Steve Sobol wrote:
    > On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 16:38:21 -0000
    > "Tony Proctor"<tony@proctor_NoMore_SPAM.net> wrote:
    >> This type of re-branding is surprisingly naive by Oracle! They would be
    >> better off giving Java it's own "brand" (possibly even resurrecting
    >> something like javasoft) so that all this Web collateral can remain constant
    >> in the future.

    >
    > There is no reason they couldn't have kept java.com, java.net and java.sun.com.


    They want maximum benefits for the Oracle "brand".

    And since they paid a lot of money for SUN, then it seems
    fair to me.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Nov 12, 2010
    #17
  18. Roedy Green

    Lew Guest

    Tony Proctor wrote:
    >>> This type of re-branding is surprisingly naive by Oracle! They would be
    >>> better off giving Java it's own "brand" (possibly even resurrecting
    >>> something like javasoft) so that all this Web collateral can remain
    >>> constant
    >>> in the future.


    Steve Sobol wrote:
    >> There is no reason they couldn't have kept java.com, java.net and
    >> java.sun.com.


    Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    > They want maximum benefits for the Oracle "brand".
    >
    > And since they paid a lot of money for SUN, then it seems
    > fair to me.


    Oh, no, Arne - we may only come to bury Oracle, not to praise them. We cannot
    go around saying things that give them a fair shake! Gods forfend! We must
    perpetrate the Oracle-hating idiocy.

    I don't suppose anyone thinks of taking some action to keep Java viable, like,
    oh, writing for the open source version or something. It so much easier to
    sit on the sidelines and opine about how Oracle is "ruining" Java.

    What did Thomas G. Marshall say upthread? Oh, yes, "I'm finally caving in and
    viewing Java as unstoppably headed for footnote status."

    What an incredibly useful and forward-thinking attitude! Not.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Nov 13, 2010
    #18
  19. On Nov 12, 7:16 pm, Lew <> wrote:
    > Tony Proctor wrote:
    > >>> This type of re-branding is surprisingly naive by Oracle! They would be
    > >>> better off giving Java it's own "brand" (possibly even resurrecting
    > >>> something like javasoft) so that all this Web collateral can remain
    > >>> constant
    > >>> in the future.

    > Steve Sobol wrote:
    > >> There is no reason they couldn't have kept java.com, java.net and
    > >> java.sun.com.

    > Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    > > They want maximum benefits for the Oracle "brand".

    >
    > > And since they paid a lot of money for SUN, then it seems
    > > fair to me.

    >
    > Oh, no, Arne - we may only come to bury Oracle, not to praise them.  We cannot
    > go around saying things that give them a fair shake!  Gods forfend!  We must
    > perpetrate the Oracle-hating idiocy.
    >
    > I don't suppose anyone thinks of taking some action to keep Java viable, like,
    > oh, writing for the open source version or something.  It so much easier to
    > sit on the sidelines and opine about how Oracle is "ruining" Java.
    >
    > What did Thomas G. Marshall say upthread?  Oh, yes, "I'm finally caving in and
    > viewing Java as unstoppably headed for footnote status."
    >
    > What an incredibly useful and forward-thinking attitude!  Not.


    Didn't mean it to be useful, nor should I have to. Didn't mean for it
    to be forward thinking, nor should it be. Misplaced or not, argue
    away, but it's just a lament. I suppose you've never expressed a
    lament before?
     
    Thomas G. Marshall, Nov 13, 2010
    #19
  20. On 11/12/2010 04:39 PM, Steve Sobol wrote:
    > There is no reason they couldn't have kept java.com, java.net and java.sun.com.


    From what I have heard, it seems that Oracle bought Sun solely for
    Java, presumably to capitalize in on its success. In order to best
    capitalize on it, they want you to always think of Oracle when you use
    Java, so rebranding everything works to their favor.

    --
    Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
    tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
     
    Joshua Cranmer, Nov 13, 2010
    #20
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. R2G2

    Idiots guide to divs?

    R2G2, May 20, 2005, in forum: HTML
    Replies:
    5
    Views:
    701
    Toby Inkster
    May 20, 2005
  2. import newbie

    Idiots guide to fonts with tKinter

    import newbie, Aug 4, 2005, in forum: Python
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    714
    James Stroud
    Aug 5, 2005
  3. Xah Lee
    Replies:
    16
    Views:
    307
    Albert van der Horst
    Mar 12, 2012
  4. Feyruz
    Replies:
    4
    Views:
    2,182
    Sherm Pendley
    Oct 14, 2005
  5. Xah Lee
    Replies:
    15
    Views:
    717
    Albert van der Horst
    Mar 12, 2012
Loading...

Share This Page