no! you idiots at Oracle

L

Lew

Thomas said:
Didn't mean it to be useful, nor should I have to. Didn't mean for it
to be forward thinking, nor should it be. Misplaced or not, argue
away, but it's just a lament. I suppose you've never expressed a
lament before?

Fair enough. I feel for you.

In general I've been seeing a lot of Oracle-bashing around and about. I get
that your comment isn't part of that as such.

However, I also think you may be a bit off base with comments like, "As soon
as I learned of the sun [sic] purchase, I knew that the Not-Invented-Here
mongers were going to take over and @#$% up quite a bit." You admit to having
reached judgment on the matter before anyone took any actions to justify or
refute the judgment. That by definition is prejudice.

The rhetoric over Oracle's alleged mismanagement of Java and prognostications
of welkinic collapse typically come with unsubstantiable, unsubstantiated and
often counter-evidentiary claims of malfeasance along with exaggerated
protestations of despair and gloom, so you can understand my confusion.
 
L

Lew

If you think the purpose of my comment was to disparage Oracle, you don't know me very well.

No, I'm not a big fan of the company. And yes, I do think Larry Ellison is an arrogant jerk.

However, when I found out Sun was to be acquired, I figured Oracle to be one of the two most appropriate buyers (IBM being the other one).

Both Oracle and IBM have made significant investments in Java. Both companies have a vested interest in seeing Java continue to be a viable, relevant platform.

For that reason, I am actually quite pleased to see that Oracle now owns Java. They have every reason to keep Java alive.


Yeah, I read that. Don't attribute that kind of thinking to me. I didn't say that; I'm not even thinking it.

The issue at hand is a complete, wholesale change of an online resource used by many people. Don't turn the discussion into anything more than that, please.

Your points are valid, but I am disturbed by a lot of the rabid and less
rational Oracle bashing I've been reading. And nowhere did I say you said
what Thomas said - I attributed it to the person who posted it, as I hope you
noticed.

As far as whether I turn anything into anything, "more" or not, I shall
continue to express ideas and opinions that I hope to contribute to the
discussion. I aver that my remarks were germane to this thread as it has
unfolded, and certainly to the subject of the thread, so I don't understand
your fear. I take no offense if you disregard my remarks.
 
B

BGB

I'm disheartened about all this. Frankly, Java (as a concept and
anthropomorphised) has taken it on the chin for a little too long
now. As soon as I learned of the sun purchase, I knew that the Not-
Invented-Here mongers were going to take over and @#$% up quite a
bit. I'm finally caving in and viewing Java as unstoppably headed for
footnote status.

well, Sun/Oracle is not the only source of Java, as there is also IBM
and some open-source efforts (Harmony, GCJ, ...), and at this point even
if Oracle totally messes everything up, then likely alternative
implementations will pick up the slack, and then it will be a little
more like in C and C++ land (with a variety of available compilers and
implementations, and possibly with a little more variety in terms of VM
architecture, ...).


or such...
 
T

Thomas G. Marshall

Thomas said:
Didn't mean it to be useful, nor should I have to.  Didn't mean for it
to be forward thinking, nor should it be.  Misplaced or not, argue
away, but it's just a lament.  I suppose you've never expressed a
lament before?

Fair enough.  I feel for you.

In general I've been seeing a lot of Oracle-bashing around and about.  I get
that your comment isn't part of that as such.

However, I also think you may be a bit off base with comments like, "As soon
as I learned of the sun [sic] purchase, I knew that the Not-Invented-Here
mongers were going to take over and @#$% up quite a bit."  You admit to having
reached judgment on the matter before anyone took any actions to justify or
refute the judgment.  That by definition is prejudice.

When people say "I knew that this was going to happen", it is
colloquially a way of saying "I strongly suspected that this was going
to happen". If you want to use an inflamatory word such as
"prejudice" for silly reasons, then go for it, but it's a bad idea.
My suspicion (if you insist) is based on how companies in general
behave when purchasing things. It's a series of actions I look for.
The rhetoric over Oracle's alleged mismanagement of Java and prognostications
of welkinic collapse typically come with unsubstantiable, unsubstantiated and
often counter-evidentiary claims of malfeasance along with exaggerated
protestations of despair and gloom, so you can understand my confusion.

You are expressing no confusion, you are expressing a strong opinion.
Not unlike many on all sides. And if you take a look at all of the
complaints, sure---some of them are indeed knee-jerk. But many are
not.

Whatever.
 
T

Thomas G. Marshall

If you think the purpose of my comment was to disparage Oracle, you don't know me very well.

No, I'm not a big fan of the company. And yes, I do think Larry Ellison is an arrogant jerk.

However, when I found out Sun was to be acquired, I figured Oracle to be one of the two most appropriate buyers (IBM being the other one).

Both Oracle and IBM have made significant investments in Java. Both companies have a vested interest in seeing Java continue to be a viable, relevant platform.

For that reason, I am actually quite pleased to see that Oracle now owns Java. They have every reason to keep Java alive.


Yeah, I read that. Don't attribute that kind of thinking to me. I didn't say that; I'm not even thinking it.

The issue at hand is a complete, wholesale change of an online resource used by many people. Don't turn the discussion into anything more than that, please.

......which is part of what is hurting Java, which is /clearly/ a
connected point.

In any case, this seems like a sore subject on all sides, so I'll not
add any laments.
 
L

Lew

Lew said:
However, I also think you may be a bit off base with comments like, "As soon
as I learned of the sun [sic] purchase, I knew that the Not-Invented-Here
mongers [sic] were going to take over and @#$% up quite a bit." You admit to having
reached judgment on the matter before anyone took any actions to justify or
refute the judgment. That by definition is prejudice.
When people say "I knew that this was going to happen", it is
colloquially a way of saying "I strongly suspected that this was going
to happen". If you want to use an inflamatory word such as
"prejudice" for silly reasons, then go for it, but it's a bad idea.
My suspicion (if you insist) is based on how companies in general
behave when purchasing things. It's a series of actions I look for.

OK, I was going by what you actually said, but I accept your revision.
You are expressing no confusion, you are expressing a strong opinion.
Not unlike many on all sides. And if you take a look at all of the
complaints, sure---some of them are indeed knee-jerk. But many are
not.

As I said in my last post, I accept that your "lament" was not of that ilk.

I happen to disagree with the knee-jerk complainers (of whom you are not one).
The evidence shows that Oracle is not killing Java. They are even welcoming
their largest competitor, IBM, into the open-source effort and taking it upon
themselves to announce that.

So all those fearmongers (not you) should take a chill pill and look at what's
really happening. The Java sky is not falling, Chicken Little.
 
L

Lew

Steve said:
OK. I did notice. I guess the timing of your reply made me question how you felt about my post.



And, based on past experience, I am sure that your contributions will be relevant and interesting. I just don't want to lose sight of the original topic.

Thank you. And the topic is "no! you idiots at Oracle". I am on that like
flies on poop, speaking for the negative.
 
T

Thomas G. Marshall

....[snip]...

From signature:
I have no idea how serious you are, but Yes. Google has been the
vampire in benevolent clothing to entrepreneurs for a while now.
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

So... plaster the Oracle name and logo all over the former Sun
websites. Just keep the domain names.

I can completely understand, and even agree with, Oracle's desire to
retain consistent branding across all of its product lines. If you
have a well-known brand, consistent branding IS very important, and
Oracle one of the most well-known brands in IT.

They may consider the site name part of the brand.

Arne
 

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