Non-Newbie: How to achieve "valid" frames?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by enickma, Oct 27, 2004.

  1. enickma

    enickma Guest

    Hi guys,

    I'm currently playing with a covers band and they want a new web site. One
    of the members asked if I could "make the menu stay at the top the whole
    time". So, I'm using frames. Hey, it's a band web site, not a corporate one.

    Anyway, I wanted to try and hand-code the frames but when I went to validate
    it, it claimed that there's no "frameborder" attribute for frameset [which
    is false because it's mentioned here:
    http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/present/frames.html#adef-frameborder]

    And it also mentions that the "border" attribute is not a valid attribute
    [which is fair enough]. Anyway, I want to make the frames seem transparent
    so people don't realize they're being used. What's a valid way of getting
    rid of their borders?

    Thanks in advance,

    Nick.
    enickma, Oct 27, 2004
    #1
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  2. "enickma" <> wrote:

    > What's a valid way of getting
    > rid of their borders?


    Copying the menu to the top of each and every page so that you do not need
    to use frames will work.

    Doh! *facepalm*

    The Doormouse

    --
    The Doormouse cannot be reached by e-mail without her permission.
    The Doormouse, Oct 27, 2004
    #2
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  3. enickma

    Dan Abrey Guest

    "enickma" <> wrote in message
    news:fOAfd.1200$%...
    > Hi guys,
    >
    > I'm currently playing with a covers band and they want a new web site. One
    > of the members asked if I could "make the menu stay at the top the whole
    > time". So, I'm using frames. Hey, it's a band web site, not a corporate

    one.
    >
    > Anyway, I wanted to try and hand-code the frames but when I went to

    validate
    > it, it claimed that there's no "frameborder" attribute for frameset [which
    > is false because it's mentioned here:
    > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/present/frames.html#adef-frameborder]
    >
    > And it also mentions that the "border" attribute is not a valid attribute
    > [which is fair enough]. Anyway, I want to make the frames seem transparent
    > so people don't realize they're being used. What's a valid way of getting
    > rid of their borders?
    >
    > Thanks in advance,
    >
    > Nick.


    If you just used the menu at the top of the page each time, it wouldn't not
    "stay at the top the whole time". HTML rarely sprouts legs and gallops down
    the page.

    Either copy and paste as Doormouse said or use SSI or a dynamic language to
    include it in each page.
    Dan Abrey, Oct 27, 2004
    #3
  4. In article <fOAfd.1200$%>,
    says...
    > I'm currently playing with a covers band and they want a new web site. One
    > of the members asked if I could "make the menu stay at the top the whole
    > time". So, I'm using frames. Hey, it's a band web site, not a corporate one.


    Why do you need frames to keep the menu at the top all the time?
    --
    -=*Tn*=-
    Travis Newbury, Oct 27, 2004
    #4
  5. In article <fOAfd.1200$%>, enickma
    () dropped a +5 bundle of words...

    > Hi guys,
    >
    > I'm currently playing with a covers band and they want a new web site. One
    > of the members asked if I could "make the menu stay at the top the whole
    > time". So, I'm using frames. Hey, it's a band web site, not a corporate one.


    Frames won't help you for that. Do what doormouse recommended.

    >
    > Anyway, I wanted to try and hand-code the frames but when I went to validate
    > it, it claimed that there's no "frameborder" attribute for frameset [which
    > is false because it's mentioned here:
    > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/present/frames.html#adef-frameborder]
    >
    > And it also mentions that the "border" attribute is not a valid attribute
    > [which is fair enough]. Anyway, I want to make the frames seem transparent
    > so people don't realize they're being used. What's a valid way of getting
    > rid of their borders?


    <frameset rows(or cols)="xx,n%,*" frameborder="no" border="0">
    <frame src="whatever.html" name="whatever" frameborder="no" />
    </frameset>

    There's still gonna be a line where the frame borders are though, sorry.

    (This space reserved for the inevitable 'don't use frames' response.)

    >
    > Thanks in advance,
    >
    > Nick.



    --
    Starshine Moonbeam
    mhm31x9 Smeeter#29 WSD#30
    sTaRShInE_mOOnBeAm aT HoTmAil dOt CoM
    Starshine Moonbeam, Oct 27, 2004
    #5
  6. enickma

    Nik Coughin Guest

    enickma wrote:
    > Hi guys,
    >
    > I'm currently playing with a covers band and they want a new web
    > site. One of the members asked if I could "make the menu stay at the
    > top the whole time". So, I'm using frames. Hey, it's a band web site,
    > not a corporate one.


    Staying at the top the whole time:

    http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/horizontal.html
    Nik Coughin, Oct 27, 2004
    #6
  7. enickma

    Neal Guest

    On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 23:08:59 GMT, enickma <> wrote:

    > Hi guys,
    >
    > I'm currently playing with a covers band and they want a new web site.
    > One
    > of the members asked if I could "make the menu stay at the top the whole
    > time". So, I'm using frames. Hey, it's a band web site, not a corporate
    > one.


    Hey, you wanna make money? It's a corporate site.

    Don't use the frames. They suck. Everyone will throw live bait at you.

    Trust me, I'm in a rock band. I KNOW.

    My first site, I did it in frames. Boy did I ever learn. I redesigned it
    the hard way, pasting the navigation in on every page. Pain in the ass.

    I now am developing a new design for this page where I can do half the
    work, thanks to PHP.

    (Gee, I'm a regular PHP spokesperson lately. You'd think it was PCP...)
    Neal, Oct 27, 2004
    #7
  8. enickma

    enickma Guest

    > Why do you need frames to keep the menu at the top all the time?

    The idea was so that it would not scroll with the page. Sorry, maybe I
    should've made that clearer... unless these were smartarse posts to avoid
    answering the question?

    Nick.
    enickma, Oct 27, 2004
    #8
  9. enickma

    enickma Guest

    > <frameset rows(or cols)="xx,n%,*" frameborder="no" border="0">
    > <frame src="whatever.html" name="whatever" frameborder="no" />
    > </frameset>
    >
    > There's still gonna be a line where the frame borders are though, sorry.


    Unfortunately, that code is considered "invalid" by W3C. That's what I was
    asking about. Is there another way to hide the borders?

    Honestly though, all you need in your code example is the frameborder="0"
    and border="0" for the <frameset> element - not for the <frame> element.
    Still invalid either way.

    Thanks, though.
    enickma, Oct 27, 2004
    #9
  10. In article <VUGfd.267$>, enickma
    () dropped a +5 bundle of words...

    > > <frameset rows(or cols)="xx,n%,*" frameborder="no" border="0">
    > > <frame src="whatever.html" name="whatever" frameborder="no" />
    > > </frameset>
    > >
    > > There's still gonna be a line where the frame borders are though, sorry.

    >
    > Unfortunately, that code is considered "invalid" by W3C.


    http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present/frames.html
    http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-frameset.dtd


    > That's what I was
    > asking about. Is there another way to hide the borders?


    Yes.

    <frameset rows="xx,n%,*" frameborder="no" border="0">
    <frame src="whatever.html" name="whatever" />
    </frameset>


    >
    > Honestly though, all you need in your code example is the frameborder="0"
    > and border="0" for the <frameset> element - not for the <frame> element.
    > Still invalid either way.


    I know. You can apply frameborder="0" to a single frame. Why you'd want
    to do that, I don't know. Aesthetics, maybe.

    >
    > Thanks, though.
    >


    No prob. Glad to help.


    --
    Starshine Moonbeam
    mhm31x9 Smeeter#29 WSD#30
    sTaRShInE_mOOnBeAm aT HoTmAil dOt CoM
    Starshine Moonbeam, Oct 27, 2004
    #10
  11. "Nik Coughin" <nrkn!no-spam!@woosh.co.nz> writes:

    > enickma wrote:


    >> So, I'm using frames.


    So, to remove the borders in most browsers you need to use

    frameborder="0"
    framespacing="0"
    border="0"

    in the start tag of the frameset element and use a doctype declaration
    that permits it if you want to be able to validate it. But then,
    validation for its own sake is an utterly useless exercise.

    > Staying at the top the whole time:
    >
    > http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/horizontal.html


    Which introduces other problems than frames have; e.g. jumping to page
    anchors is quite impossible (the kludge to get around that does not work
    in Safari; if the content were in an overflowing box for all browsers,
    Opera would not be able to jump to page anchors, Geckos wouldn't allow
    keybord scrolling, although I believe that is fixed in the latest
    versions, etc etc).


    --
    | ) Più Cabernet,
    -( meno Internet.
    | ) http://bednarz.nl/
    Eric B. Bednarz, Oct 27, 2004
    #11
  12. In article <iTGfd.264$>,
    says...
    > > Why do you need frames to keep the menu at the top all the time?

    > The idea was so that it would not scroll with the page. Sorry, maybe I
    > should've made that clearer... unless these were smartarse posts to avoid
    > answering the question?


    Won't you have to scroll the frame? What you want to do is not a good
    reason to use frames.

    Just put the menu at the top of all the pages. If they are static, cut
    and paste, if they are created with a server script, then do it with
    code.

    Fewer people get confused and lost when they have to scroll a page and
    the menu goes away than they do when they can not bookmark your page
    because it uses frames.

    No one is avoiding the question, just telling you the "right" answer is
    to not use frames.
    --
    -=*Tn*=-
    Travis Newbury, Oct 27, 2004
    #12
  13. enickma

    enickma Guest

    > Fewer people get confused and lost when they have to scroll a page and
    > the menu goes away than they do when they can not bookmark your page
    > because it uses frames.
    >
    > No one is avoiding the question, just telling you the "right" answer is
    > to not use frames.


    Okay, I know why it is not a good idea to use frames [that's why I said
    "Non-Newbie" in the subject line and I mentioned that it was not my idea in
    the first place].

    Secondly, depending on how you do it, it is possible for users to bookmark
    your "framed" pages - it just requires the use of more files.

    Still, the question remains... [thanks, though]
    enickma, Oct 27, 2004
    #13
  14. enickma

    enickma Guest

    > Yes.
    >
    > <frameset rows="xx,n%,*" frameborder="no" border="0">
    > <frame src="whatever.html" name="whatever" />
    > </frameset>


    Not valid, apparently.
    enickma, Oct 27, 2004
    #14
  15. enickma

    Neal Guest

    On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 06:03:58 GMT, enickma <> wrote:

    >> Why do you need frames to keep the menu at the top all the time?

    >
    > The idea was so that it would not scroll with the page.


    position: fixed; on the menu will keep it there and the rest of the page
    will scroll under it... except on IE which doesn't do fixed. But then the
    menu's a short slide away.

    Are you afraid the user will forget it was there?
    Neal, Oct 27, 2004
    #15
  16. enickma

    Liz Guest

    In message <>
    Eric B. Bednarz <> wrote:

    > "Nik Coughin" <nrkn!no-spam!@woosh.co.nz> writes:
    >
    > > enickma wrote:

    >
    > >> So, I'm using frames.

    >
    > So, to remove the borders in most browsers you need to use
    >
    > frameborder="0"
    > framespacing="0"
    > border="0"
    >
    > in the start tag of the frameset element and use a doctype declaration
    > that permits it if you want to be able to validate it. But then,
    > validation for its own sake is an utterly useless exercise.


    Putting aside the issue of the use of frames altogether, are there any
    frames-aware browsers in which putting frameborder="0" and border="0" would
    render a page unusable?


    Tx

    Liz

    --
    Virtual Liz: http://www.v-liz.com
    Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
    "I speak of Africa and golden joys"
    Liz, Oct 27, 2004
    #16
  17. enickma

    Toby Inkster Guest

    enickma wrote:

    > Anyway, I wanted to try and hand-code the frames but when I went to validate
    > it, it claimed that there's no "frameborder" attribute for frameset [which
    > is false because it's mentioned here:
    > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/present/frames.html#adef-frameborder]


    If you actually *read* the document you referenced, you'll see that there
    is a "frameborder" attribute for FRAME elements, but not for FRAMESET
    elements.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
    Toby Inkster, Oct 27, 2004
    #17
  18. In article <>, Toby
    Inkster () dropped a +5 bundle of words...

    > enickma wrote:
    >
    > > Anyway, I wanted to try and hand-code the frames but when I went to validate
    > > it, it claimed that there's no "frameborder" attribute for frameset [which
    > > is false because it's mentioned here:
    > > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/present/frames.html#adef-frameborder]

    >
    > If you actually *read* the document you referenced, you'll see that there
    > is a "frameborder" attribute for FRAME elements, but not for FRAMESET
    > elements.


    I thought I was just reading it wrong. Why can you do it for one frame
    but not all the frames?


    --
    Starshine Moonbeam
    mhm31x9 Smeeter#29 WSD#30
    sTaRShInE_mOOnBeAm aT HoTmAil dOt CoM
    Starshine Moonbeam, Oct 27, 2004
    #18
  19. Starshine Moonbeam wrote:


    > I thought I was just reading it wrong. Why can you do it for one frame
    > but not all the frames?


    <frameset> is equivalent to <body>. You may set the borders of frames
    just as you may also set the borders of divs within the body of an
    ordinary html document.

    --
    frostie
    http://brightonfixedodds.net
    Robert Frost-Bridges, Oct 28, 2004
    #19
  20. enickma

    enickma Guest

    > Are you afraid the user will forget it was there?

    As I stated in my original post, it wasn't my idea. One of the other members
    of the band thinks it looks more "professional". I'm getting sick of people
    telling ME what looks professional in a web site and what doesn't lol
    enickma, Oct 28, 2004
    #20
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