On answering homework

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by Tom St Denis, Jan 10, 2010.

  1. Tom St Denis

    Tom St Denis Guest

    People gripe about it, but honestly I think answering homework is a
    good thing. It means the students go through school not learning
    much, become un-competitive in the field and makes my life easier [as
    I have reduced competition].

    Hint: To the students, re-read that paragraph a few times.

    Tom
    Tom St Denis, Jan 10, 2010
    #1
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  2. On 10 Jan 2010 at 20:09, Tom St Denis wrote:
    > People gripe about it,


    Some people enjoy griping about anything they can find to gripe about.

    > but honestly I think answering homework is a good thing. It means the
    > students go through school not learning much,


    Whether they learn nothing or plenty from it depends to a large extent
    on what they do with the answers.

    > become un-competitive in the field and makes my life easier [as I have
    > reduced competition].


    Are you really so junior or so insecure that you consider gauche young
    programmers, fresh out of school somewhere on the Indian subcontinent,
    to be your competition?
    Antoninus Twink, Jan 10, 2010
    #2
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  3. Tom St Denis

    Tom St Denis Guest

    On Jan 10, 5:24 pm, Richard <> wrote:
    > Antoninus Twink <> writes:
    > > On 10 Jan 2010 at 20:09, Tom St Denis wrote:
    > >> People gripe about it,

    >
    > > Some people enjoy griping about anything they can find to gripe about.

    >
    > >> but honestly I think answering homework is a good thing.  It means the
    > >> students go through school not learning much,

    >
    > > Whether they learn nothing or plenty from it depends to a large extent
    > > on what they do with the answers.

    >
    > >> become un-competitive in the field and makes my life easier [as I have
    > >> reduced competition].

    >
    > > Are you really so junior or so insecure that you consider gauche young
    > > programmers, fresh out of school somewhere on the Indian subcontinent,
    > > to be your competition?

    >
    > For one minute I thought Tom was advocating answering homework type
    > questions as a service to those stuck - maybe they would read and learn
    > from it?  But no. He does it for selfish reasons. Not that I blame
    > him. Paid for Linux jobs are pretty thin on the ground.


    Wow, between you two there's almost one complete unique thought.

    Tom
    Tom St Denis, Jan 11, 2010
    #3
  4. Tom St Denis

    Tom St Denis Guest

    On Jan 11, 7:10 am, superpollo <> wrote:
    > Tom St Denis ha scritto:
    >
    > > People gripe about it, but honestly I think answering homework is a
    > > good thing.  It means the students go through school not learning
    > > much, become un-competitive in the field and makes my life easier [as
    > > I have reduced competition].

    >
    > > Hint:  To the students, re-read that paragraph a few times.

    >
    > > Tom

    >
    > interesting.
    >
    > my wife works in a different field of expertise (legal) and it is been
    > quite a few years since she started, so she had a few younger people to
    > train for the job in the last few years.
    >
    > she always tells me that the kind of attitude here described (more or
    > less: do my homework, i am too lazy to do it myself) is becoming more
    > and more common on the job.
    >
    > at first she was dissatisfied with that, because it usually means more
    > work hours for her to correct and complete the young people's poor
    > documents ... but then she realised that maybe "strategically" it was a
    > good thing exactly for the reason in tom's "innuendo".
    >
    > but then this is a bad thing for society at large, because it means that
    > parents have a bad attitude towards children's education, and this bad
    > attitude is forced onto educationl institutions (schools and universities).
    >
    > sometimes we think it is an italian defect (we live in italy) and plan
    > to go to live in a better place (northern europe, or america) where good
    > work attitude is better considered, but somtimes we wonder...


    Ideally I'd rather students learn their trade because it advances
    society instead of maintaining the status quo.

    My quip was mostly to put things in perspective for the students
    [e.g., getting through school is not the point, you're supposed to
    actually learn it].

    And to the multiple personality troll: I work as a cryptographer.
    It's fairly niche and I'm comfortable.

    Tom
    Tom St Denis, Jan 11, 2010
    #4
  5. superpollo wrote:
    [big snip about homework attitude]

    > sometimes we think it is an italian defect (we live in italy) and plan
    > to go to live in a better place (northern europe, or america) where good
    > work attitude is better considered, but somtimes we wonder...
    >
    > bye
    >


    I think it is everywhere.
    I guess it is google's fault. ;-)
    All answers are just 0.01 sec away, why study? (or so they think).
    I live in the Netherlands, I notice the same lack of 'study-attitude'. (luckily exceptions exist)
    Just my Eur 0.02.
    Gr,
    Edwin
    Edwin van den Oetelaar, Jan 11, 2010
    #5
  6. Tom St Denis

    Tom St Denis Guest

    On Jan 11, 8:57 am, superpollo <> wrote:
    > maybe that's the way students are in the whole western world... :-(


    I think you'll find laziness and deceit are universal human
    qualities. I'm taking a wild guess "wahid" is not a westerner.

    As most point out there really is nothing wrong with helping students
    provided they make an honest effort. What the "trolls" have to
    realize is that there is a difference between lazy people and honest
    efforts. One should be held in contempt, and the other applauded.

    Tom
    Tom St Denis, Jan 11, 2010
    #6
  7. On 11 Jan 2010 at 13:55, Edwin van den Oetelaar wrote:
    > I guess it is google's fault. ;-)
    > All answers are just 0.01 sec away, why study? (or so they think).


    Laziness can be a virtue.

    If you need algorithm X, do you work out the details and write it
    yourself from scratch, or do you find a suitably-licensed library that
    does it, or work from a template in an algorithms book (or research
    paper)?

    Which is really more productive?
    Antoninus Twink, Jan 11, 2010
    #7
  8. "superpollo" <> wrote in message
    news:4b4b3f1a$0$1141$...
    > Tom St Denis ha scritto:
    >> On Jan 11, 8:57 am, superpollo <> wrote:
    >>> maybe that's the way students are in the whole western world... :-(

    >>
    >> I think you'll find laziness and deceit are universal human
    >> qualities. I'm taking a wild guess "wahid" is not a westerner.
    >>

    >
    > but i have direct experience of differences between italian and chinese
    > students, and i can assure you such differences are appalling wrt to
    > laziness... but after a few months in italy chinese too get bad attitudes.
    >


    errm...

    I think the idea is that the Chinese outwork pretty much everyone...
    I think this is also generally true with Japanese and Koreans as well.

    basically, I think it is mostly due to strong social pressure, stressing
    both conformance to social ideals (being acceptable, financial success, ...)
    as well as a generally competitive mindset (people generally trying to "be
    the best" among their peers, as much social respect is due to those with
    higher grades, ...).

    outside of this world, people may not be "shamed" so much for short-falls,
    and may also find that respect/disrespect is not due to things like grades,
    and as a result, may become more lax on these fronts.

    more so, it likely doesn't help much that many western employers demand lots
    of fancy-sounding education, but not a whole lot of skills, so it is a lot
    more of a "try to get through all this education to get some big-name degree
    to get a well-paid job doing relatively little..." (in contrast to "working
    really hard and going nowhere").

    hence, there is a lot more incentive to lie and cheat to get a better
    education (or, at least, better-sounding education). everyone wanting to be
    the "middle manager doing little more than sitting at a desk and/or golfing,
    while getting lots of money for doing so...", rather than the person "stuck
    doing all the work".

    granted, the US-style corporate/industrial is a little flawed, as well as
    the education system, and culture in general, but oh well... one can't
    change one without effecting the others, and in most cases, likely any
    attempt at change would be met with resistance trying to force things as to
    how they were before...


    however, in Asia, the social pressure does come at a cost:
    psychological burn-out is a lot higher in those countries.

    many perform well, many others become "hikikomori"...


    but, yeah, laziness is fairly common in western countries in general.

    at first, I would have figured it was mostly an "American" thing, but it is
    generally the case elsewhere as well.


    >> As most point out there really is nothing wrong with helping students
    >> provided they make an honest effort. What the "trolls" have to
    >> realize is that there is a difference between lazy people and honest
    >> efforts. One should be held in contempt, and the other applauded.

    >
    > word.


    yep.
    BGB / cr88192, Jan 11, 2010
    #8
  9. Tom St Denis

    Sjouke Burry Guest

    Antoninus Twink wrote:
    > On 11 Jan 2010 at 13:55, Edwin van den Oetelaar wrote:
    >> I guess it is google's fault. ;-)
    >> All answers are just 0.01 sec away, why study? (or so they think).

    >
    > Laziness can be a virtue.
    >
    > If you need algorithm X, do you work out the details and write it
    > yourself from scratch, or do you find a suitably-licensed library that
    > does it, or work from a template in an algorithms book (or research
    > paper)?
    >
    > Which is really more productive?
    >

    Productive is understanding the algorithms you use.
    Blindly copy/paste googled pieces of software you dont
    understand, is not the way.
    Sjouke Burry, Jan 11, 2010
    #9
  10. Tom St Denis

    Willem Guest

    superpollo wrote:
    ) Sjouke Burry ha scritto:
    )> Productive is understanding the algorithms you use.
    )> Blindly copy/paste googled pieces of software you dont
    )> understand, is not the way.
    )
    ) curiously, a long forgotten italian writer, beniamino placido, died a
    ) few days ago. he used to say:
    )
    ) "Conoscenza non e' ricordare le cose,
    ) ma ricordare in che libro cercarle."
    )
    ) translation:
    )
    ) "knowledge is not to remember things, but to remember the book where to
    ) look them up."

    You don't seem to understand the difference
    between remembering and understanding.


    SaSW, Willem
    --
    Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any of the statements
    made in the above text. For all I know I might be
    drugged or something..
    No I'm not paranoid. You all think I'm paranoid, don't you !
    #EOT
    Willem, Jan 11, 2010
    #10
  11. Tom St Denis

    Dann Corbit Guest

    In article <4b4b9efa$0$1109$>,
    says...
    >
    > Willem ha scritto:
    > > superpollo wrote:
    > > ) Sjouke Burry ha scritto:
    > > )> Productive is understanding the algorithms you use.
    > > )> Blindly copy/paste googled pieces of software you dont
    > > )> understand, is not the way.
    > > )
    > > ) curiously, a long forgotten italian writer, beniamino placido, died a
    > > ) few days ago. he used to say:
    > > )
    > > ) "Conoscenza non e' ricordare le cose,
    > > ) ma ricordare in che libro cercarle."
    > > )
    > > ) translation:
    > > )
    > > ) "knowledge is not to remember things, but to remember the book where to
    > > ) look them up."
    > >
    > > You don't seem to understand the difference
    > > between remembering and understanding.
    > >

    >
    > maybe i don't. but i think the sentence i quoted and tried to translate
    > has yet another meaning.


    Give a man a fish, you'll feed him for a day.
    Teach a man to fish and you'll feed him for a lifetime.
    Teach him how to steal a fish and you'll cripple him for life.
    Dann Corbit, Jan 11, 2010
    #11
  12. Tom St Denis

    gwowen Guest

    On Jan 11, 9:45 pm, superpollo <> wrote:
    > curiously, a long forgotten italian writer, beniamino placido, died a
    > few days ago. he used to say:
    >
    > "Conoscenza non e' ricordare le cose,
    > ma ricordare in che libro cercarle."
    >
    > translation:
    >
    > "knowledge is not to remember things, but to remember the book where to
    > look them up."


    Clearly a man who knew in which book to look things up. In this case,
    if you're after a pithy quotation, try Boswells "Life Of Johnson".

    "Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves, or we know
    where we can find information upon it." -- Samuel Johnson, quoted in
    Boswell's Life Of Johnson. http://www.samueljohnson.com/apocryph.html#12
    gwowen, Jan 12, 2010
    #12
  13. Tom St Denis

    Albert Guest

    Antoninus Twink wrote:
    > <snip>
    > If you need algorithm X, do you work out the details and write it
    > yourself from scratch, or do you find a suitably-licensed library that
    > does it, or work from a template in an algorithms book (or research
    > paper)?


    I find good explanations of algorithm X from Wikipedia, Skiena and
    Revilla's Programming Challenges or watch a university lecture on
    YouTube. Once *I've* written pseudocode, I code it up.

    > Which is really more productive?


    The third option.
    Albert, Jan 20, 2010
    #13
  14. On 20 Jan, 23:19, Albert <> wrote:

    > I find good explanations of algorithm X from Wikipedia, Skiena and
    > Revilla's Programming Challenges or watch a university lecture on
    > YouTube. Once *I've* written pseudocode, I code it up.


    they have university lectures on YouTube!?
    any pointers to good ones? Or would 5s in google answer that question?
    Nick Keighley, Jan 21, 2010
    #14
  15. On Jan 10, 10:09 pm, Tom St Denis <> wrote:
    > People gripe about it, but honestly I think answering homework is a
    > good thing.  It means the students go through school not learning
    > much, become un-competitive in the field and makes my life easier [as
    > I have reduced competition].


    It depends on the POV then. It's good for you because you're thinning
    the competition, good for them because they fulfill their short-term
    goals, and...oh wait.
    Michael Foukarakis, Jan 21, 2010
    #15
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