On some web sites I see that <p> is not used.

Discussion in 'HTML' started by iwach, Jan 13, 2009.

  1. iwach

    iwach Guest

    iwach, Jan 13, 2009
    #1
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  2. iwach wrote:
    > Any idea? Good or bad!?
    >
    > Example...
    >
    > http://www.realitysoftware.ca/services/website-development/design/
    >
    > IMHO very well design and of course validated.
    >

    It is used, but only where they felt they needed a line break, which is
    not what the p tag is for. It's wrong: a paragraph should be marked up
    as a paragraph. So much for their ability to create a "truly well
    designed website".
     
    Harlan Messinger, Jan 13, 2009
    #2
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  3. iwach

    Bergamot Guest

    iwach wrote:
    > Any idea? Good or bad!?


    Looking only at the message text I had no idea what you were talking
    about. Please do not put vital info about your query only in the subject
    line. Repeat or restate it in the body of the message. thanks

    > Example...
    >
    > http://www.realitysoftware.ca/services/website-development/design/


    2 line breaks do not equal a paragraph, i.e. <br><br> != <p>
    Anonymous text (missing <p> tag following a heading) is not assumed to
    be a paragraph, either.

    If you don't understand the semantic difference, look at how <br><br>
    comes out in Lynx.

    BTW, <br><br> (or no tags at all) is most often generated by the editor
    in some kind of CMS. The one used by the above site seems not very good.

    > What caught my attention is that:
    >
    > #logo {
    > background-image : url(images/logo.png);
    > text-indent : -9999px;
    > }


    That's an image replacement method. Look at the page with image loading
    disabled and you won't be so impressed. That's the biggest flaw in most
    IR methods, and a good reason to not use them.

    --
    Berg
     
    Bergamot, Jan 13, 2009
    #3
  4. iwach

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On 13 Jan, 10:22, iwach <> wrote:
    > Any idea? Good or bad!?


    "Better than the usual crap" doesn't mean "good".

    Uses XHTML. Always a sign of cluelessness unless the author can
    demonstrate some good reason _why_.

    Home page doesn't demonstrate a real problem but this page:
    <http://www.realitysoftware.ca/services/website-development/e-commerce/
    >

    Doesn't know its <p> from its <br> and that's just plain dumb wrong.
    Not always invalid, but still wrong.
     
    Andy Dingley, Jan 13, 2009
    #4
  5. iwach

    +mrcakey Guest

    "Andy Dingley" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On 13 Jan, 10:22, iwach <> wrote:
    >> Any idea? Good or bad!?

    >
    > "Better than the usual crap" doesn't mean "good".
    >
    > Uses XHTML. Always a sign of cluelessness unless the author can
    > demonstrate some good reason _why_.


    Oooh, contentious!!!

    Reason I like it - it just fits better in my slightly anal version of how
    disciplined markup should look. I like things indented neatly, I like
    "code"-y bits clearly differentiated in the markup. I like tags to have an
    open and close. And clients like having their websites designed with
    something with an "X" in it.

    It doesn't actually do any *harm* to serve XHTML as HTML, save for the harm
    it does to the concept, but until the big M rectifies that, the concept is
    dead in the water.

    +mrcakey
     
    +mrcakey, Jan 13, 2009
    #5
  6. iwach

    richard Guest

    On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:22:06 +0900, iwach <> wrote:

    >Any idea? Good or bad!?
    >
    >Example...
    >
    >http://www.realitysoftware.ca/services/website-development/design/
    >
    >IMHO very well design and of course validated.
    >
    >What caught my attention is that:
    >
    >#logo {
    >width : 313px;
    >height : 48px;
    >background-image : url(images/logo.png);
    >text-indent : -9999px;
    >float : left;
    >}
    >
    >text-indent : -9999px;



    wtf is <p>?

    Oh yeah.
    It has a specific usage and some people use it wisely, while some
    don't.
    After all, CSS can do practically anything a <p> can nowadays.
    Which is what I prefer to do.
    If I need some space between two areas, just slip in a <div> and
    define it with css.
     
    richard, Jan 13, 2009
    #6
  7. iwach

    Ari Heino Guest

    richard kirjoitti seuraavasti:
    > wtf is <p>?
    >
    > Oh yeah.
    > It has a specific usage and some people use it wisely, while some
    > don't.


    Which group do You belong to, then?

    > After all, CSS can do practically anything a <p> can nowadays.


    Practically yes, semantically, not.

    > Which is what I prefer to do.


    What happens when someone turns of the default css?

    > If I need some space between two areas, just slip in a <div> and
    > define it with css.


    That's not the purpose of p. Or div, either.


    --
    Ari
    Windows: Next best thing to sand in your hard disk.
     
    Ari Heino, Jan 13, 2009
    #7
  8. iwach

    dorayme Guest

    In article
    <>,
    Andy Dingley <> wrote:

    > Uses XHTML. Always a sign of cluelessness unless the author can
    > demonstrate some good reason _why_.


    This is one of those in-house statements that needs to be taken with a
    grain of salt. It does not follow, for example, that the cluelessness
    has any particularly bad effects to the public at large, or that there
    is any real incompetence in the making of websites.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Jan 13, 2009
    #8
  9. iwach

    dorayme Guest

    In article <>,
    richard <> wrote:

    > wtf is <p>?
    >
    > Oh yeah.
    > It has a specific usage and some people use it wisely, while some
    > don't.
    > After all, CSS can do practically anything a <p> can nowadays.
    > Which is what I prefer to do.
    > If I need some space between two areas, just slip in a <div> and
    > define it with css.


    I cannot believe you said this. Are you cleverly trolling here?

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Jan 13, 2009
    #9
  10. iwach

    dorayme Guest

    In article <>,
    richard <> wrote:

    > wtf is <p>?
    >
    > Oh yeah.
    > It has a specific usage and some people use it wisely, while some
    > don't.
    > After all, CSS can do practically anything a <p> can nowadays.
    > Which is what I prefer to do.
    > If I need some space between two areas, just slip in a <div> and
    > define it with css.


    I cannot believe you said this. Are you cleverly trolling here?

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Jan 13, 2009
    #10
  11. dorayme wrote:

    > In article <>,
    > richard <> wrote:

    - -
    > I cannot believe you said this. Are you cleverly trolling here?


    I cannot believe _you_ posted the same message twice and asked whether
    "richard" is trolling - even less that you implied that he could be able to
    troll cleverly.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
     
    Jukka K. Korpela, Jan 13, 2009
    #11
  12. iwach

    Bergamot Guest

    dorayme wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > richard <> wrote:
    >
    >> wtf is <p>?

    >
    > Are you cleverly trolling here?


    There is nothing clever about him.

    --
    Berg
     
    Bergamot, Jan 13, 2009
    #12
  13. iwach

    dorayme Guest

    In article <HY6bl.118633$>,
    "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:

    > dorayme wrote:
    >
    > > In article <>,
    > > richard <> wrote:

    > - -
    > > I cannot believe you said this. Are you cleverly trolling here?

    >
    > I cannot believe _you_ posted the same message twice and asked whether
    > "richard" is trolling - even less that you implied that he could be able to
    > troll cleverly.


    You would believe it if you had seen my newsreader reporting a problem
    with sending the first one! My post was so important that I felt
    compelled to make sure it got up there.

    What everyone does not realise here is that Richard has enormous
    potential and he deserves respect and encouragement to develop it. How
    easy does anyone think it is to climb down from a truck and start
    HTML/CSSing? It is an enormous change of personal direction.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Jan 13, 2009
    #13
  14. iwach

    dorayme Guest

    In article <>,
    Bergamot <> wrote:

    > dorayme wrote:
    > > In article <>,
    > > richard <> wrote:
    > >
    > >> wtf is <p>?

    > >
    > > Are you cleverly trolling here?

    >
    > There is nothing clever about him.


    Give him time, there are flashes of good sense and, if you keep an open
    mind, you might be very surprised. Please try to make time this year to
    encourage him as much as possible. Yes, I realise the temptations are
    enormous but how about this scheme. For the next two years, you, JK, JL
    and, above all, Richard's greatest anti-fan, Andy D, be all sweet and
    light to him. And we review the effectiveness of this at the end of the
    period.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Jan 13, 2009
    #14
  15. On 2009-01-13, iwach wrote:
    > Any idea? Good or bad!?
    >
    > Example...
    >
    > http://www.realitysoftware.ca/services/website-development/design/
    >
    > IMHO very well design and of course validated.


    Not very well coded:
    <cfaj.freeshell.org/testing/reality.jpg>

    --
    Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://Woodbine-Gerrard.com>
    ===================================================================
    Author:
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
     
    Chris F.A. Johnson, Jan 14, 2009
    #15
  16. iwach

    iwach Guest

    Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
    > On 2009-01-13, iwach wrote:
    >> Any idea? Good or bad!?
    >>
    >> Example...
    >>
    >> http://www.realitysoftware.ca/services/website-development/design/
    >>
    >> IMHO very well design and of course validated.

    >
    > Not very well coded:
    > <cfaj.freeshell.org/testing/reality.jpg>
    >



    What I'm surprised, these pages are showing properly in any of my editors.

    Dreamweaver, Front Page 2003 and Expression Web. That is not happening
    often!

    Not using <p> saves space. What I've read here typing <font size -1>
    etc. is wasting space because if millions of hits on a web page... bla
    bla bla...

    This web site is one of the best and neat design I've ever seen without
    any clutter, messy display in some browsers and editors, and of course
    validates.

    Graphic design is beautiful without distracting flash crap and moving gifs.


    What else would you want?
     
    iwach, Jan 14, 2009
    #16
  17. On 2009-01-14, iwach wrote:
    > Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
    >> On 2009-01-13, iwach wrote:
    >>> Any idea? Good or bad!?
    >>>
    >>> Example...
    >>>
    >>> http://www.realitysoftware.ca/services/website-development/design/
    >>>
    >>> IMHO very well design and of course validated.

    >>
    >> Not very well coded:
    >> <cfaj.freeshell.org/testing/reality.jpg>

    >
    > What I'm surprised, these pages are showing properly in any of my editors.


    Most people view web pages in browsers, not editors.

    > Dreamweaver, Front Page 2003 and Expression Web. That is not happening
    > often!


    'Nuff said!

    > Not using <p> saves space. What I've read here typing <font size -1>
    > etc. is wasting space because if millions of hits on a web page... bla
    > bla bla...


    Not using <p> creates a sematic nonsense if you actually have
    paragraphs.

    > This web site is one of the best and neat design I've ever seen without
    > any clutter, messy display in some browsers and editors, and of course
    > validates.
    >
    > Graphic design is beautiful without distracting flash crap and moving gifs.


    ...if you ignore link text that is barely readable, headers
    which are indistinguishable from the text, amateurish
    containers that do not contain their text, etc..

    > What else would you want?


    A page that works at my default text size.

    --
    Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://Woodbine-Gerrard.com>
    ===================================================================
    Author:
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
     
    Chris F.A. Johnson, Jan 14, 2009
    #17
  18. iwach

    dorayme Guest

    In article <e0378$496d3daa$cef88ba3$>,
    "Chris F.A. Johnson" <> wrote:

    > On 2009-01-14, iwach wrote:
    > > Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


    > > Not using <p> saves space. What I've read here typing <font size -1>
    > > etc. is wasting space because if millions of hits on a web page... bla
    > > bla bla...

    >
    > Not using <p> creates a sematic nonsense if you actually have
    > paragraphs.
    >


    OP is wrong to value so highly this "space spacing" quality of the
    absence of the paragraph element. But it is not quite true that its
    absence entails semantic nonsense for bunches of text that a user will
    see or hear or feel as a paragraph.

    The most we can say is play safe because there is a danger that it could
    be not as usable as it should be.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Jan 14, 2009
    #18
  19. iwach wrote:

    > Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
    >> On 2009-01-13, iwach wrote:
    >>> Any idea? Good or bad!?
    >>>
    >>> Example...
    >>>
    >>> http://www.realitysoftware.ca/services/website-development/design/
    >>>
    >>> IMHO very well design and of course validated.

    >>
    >> Not very well coded:
    >> <cfaj.freeshell.org/testing/reality.jpg>
    >>
    >>

    >
    > What I'm surprised, these pages are showing properly in any of my editors.
    >
    > Dreamweaver, Front Page 2003 and Expression Web. That is not happening
    > often!
    >
    > Not using <p> saves space. What I've read here typing <font size -1> etc.
    > is wasting space because if millions of hits on a web page... bla bla
    > bla...
    >
    > This web site is one of the best and neat design I've ever seen without
    > any clutter, messy display in some browsers and editors, and of course
    > validates.
    >
    > Graphic design is beautiful without distracting flash crap and moving
    > gifs.
    >
    > What else would you want?


    To p or not to p; that is the question.

    --
    Blinky
    Killing all posts from Google Groups -
    The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
     
    Blinky the Shark, Jan 14, 2009
    #19
  20. iwach

    Chaddy2222 Guest

    On Jan 14, 3:04 am, "+mrcakey" <> wrote:
    > "Andy Dingley" <> wrote in message
    >
    > news:...
    >
    > > On 13 Jan, 10:22, iwach <> wrote:
    > >> Any idea? Good or bad!?

    >
    > > "Better than the usual crap" doesn't mean "good".

    >
    > > Uses XHTML. Always a sign of cluelessness unless the author can
    > > demonstrate some good reason _why_.

    >
    > Oooh, contentious!!!
    >
    > Reason I like it - it just fits better in my slightly anal version of how
    > disciplined markup should look. I like things indented neatly, I like
    > "code"-y bits clearly differentiated in the markup. I like tags to have an
    > open and close. And clients like having their websites designed with
    > something with an "X" in it.
    >
    > It doesn't actually do any *harm* to serve XHTML as HTML, save for the harm
    > it does to the concept, but until the big M rectifies that, the concept is
    > dead in the water.
    >

    But, you can do the same stuff with XHTML served as text/html that
    you can with HTML 4.01 Strict, so you really are better off just
    useing HTML 4.01 as XHTMl in the majority of cases has no benifit.
    It can actually be harmfull as it throws IE7 into quirks mode, while
    as HTML 4.01 strict users standards mode.
    --
    Regards Chad. http://freewebdesignonline.org
     
    Chaddy2222, Jan 14, 2009
    #20
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