On some web sites I see that <p> is not used.

[iwach]

Any idea? Good or bad!?

Example...

http://www.realitysoftware.ca/services/website-development/design/

IMHO very well design and of course validated.

What caught my attention is that:

#logo {
width : 313px;
height : 48px;
background-image : url(images/logo.png);
text-indent : -9999px;
float : left;
}

text-indent : -9999px;

 

[Harlan Messinger]

Any idea? Good or bad!?

Example...

http://www.realitysoftware.ca/services/website-development/design/

IMHO very well design and of course validated.

It is used, but only where they felt they needed a line break, which is
not what the p tag is for. It's wrong: a paragraph should be marked up
as a paragraph. So much for their ability to create a "truly well
designed website".

 

[Bergamot]

Any idea? Good or bad!?

Looking only at the message text I had no idea what you were talking
about. Please do not put vital info about your query only in the subject
line. Repeat or restate it in the body of the message. thanks

Example...

http://www.realitysoftware.ca/services/website-development/design/

2 line breaks do not equal a paragraph, i.e. <br><br> != <p>
Anonymous text (missing <p> tag following a heading) is not assumed to
be a paragraph, either.

If you don't understand the semantic difference, look at how <br><br>
comes out in Lynx.

What caught my attention is that:

#logo {
background-image : url(images/logo.png);
text-indent : -9999px;
}

That's an image replacement method. Look at the page with image loading
disabled and you won't be so impressed. That's the biggest flaw in most
IR methods, and a good reason to not use them.

 

[Andy Dingley]

Any idea? Good or bad!?

"Better than the usual crap" doesn't mean "good".

Uses XHTML. Always a sign of cluelessness unless the author can
demonstrate some good reason _why_.

Home page doesn't demonstrate a real problem but this page:
<http://www.realitysoftware.ca/services/website-development/e-commerce/Doesn't know its <p> from its <br> and that's just plain dumb wrong.
Not always invalid, but still wrong.

 

[+mrcakey]

"Better than the usual crap" doesn't mean "good".

Uses XHTML. Always a sign of cluelessness unless the author can
demonstrate some good reason _why_.

Oooh, contentious!!!

Reason I like it - it just fits better in my slightly anal version of how
disciplined markup should look. I like things indented neatly, I like
"code"-y bits clearly differentiated in the markup. I like tags to have an
open and close. And clients like having their websites designed with
something with an "X" in it.

It doesn't actually do any *harm* to serve XHTML as HTML, save for the harm
it does to the concept, but until the big M rectifies that, the concept is
dead in the water.

+mrcakey

 

[richard]

Any idea? Good or bad!?

Example...

http://www.realitysoftware.ca/services/website-development/design/

IMHO very well design and of course validated.

What caught my attention is that:

#logo {
width : 313px;
height : 48px;
background-image : url(images/logo.png);
text-indent : -9999px;
float : left;
}

text-indent : -9999px;

wtf is <p>?

Oh yeah.
It has a specific usage and some people use it wisely, while some
don't.
After all, CSS can do practically anything a <p> can nowadays.
Which is what I prefer to do.
If I need some space between two areas, just slip in a <div> and
define it with css.

 

[Ari Heino]

richard kirjoitti seuraavasti:

wtf is <p>?

Oh yeah.
It has a specific usage and some people use it wisely, while some
don't.

Which group do You belong to, then?

After all, CSS can do practically anything a <p> can nowadays.

Practically yes, semantically, not.

Which is what I prefer to do.

What happens when someone turns of the default css?

If I need some space between two areas, just slip in a <div> and
define it with css.

That's not the purpose of p. Or div, either.

 

[dorayme]

Uses XHTML. Always a sign of cluelessness unless the author can
demonstrate some good reason _why_.

This is one of those in-house statements that needs to be taken with a
grain of salt. It does not follow, for example, that the cluelessness
has any particularly bad effects to the public at large, or that there
is any real incompetence in the making of websites.

 

[dorayme]

wtf is <p>?

Oh yeah.
It has a specific usage and some people use it wisely, while some
don't.
After all, CSS can do practically anything a <p> can nowadays.
Which is what I prefer to do.
If I need some space between two areas, just slip in a <div> and
define it with css.

I cannot believe you said this. Are you cleverly trolling here?

 

[dorayme]

wtf is <p>?

Oh yeah.
It has a specific usage and some people use it wisely, while some
don't.
After all, CSS can do practically anything a <p> can nowadays.
Which is what I prefer to do.
If I need some space between two areas, just slip in a <div> and
define it with css.

I cannot believe you said this. Are you cleverly trolling here?

 

[Jukka K. Korpela]

I cannot believe you said this. Are you cleverly trolling here?

I cannot believe _you_ posted the same message twice and asked whether
"richard" is trolling - even less that you implied that he could be able to
troll cleverly.

 

[Bergamot]

Are you cleverly trolling here?

There is nothing clever about him.

 

[dorayme]

I cannot believe _you_ posted the same message twice and asked whether
"richard" is trolling - even less that you implied that he could be able to
troll cleverly.

You would believe it if you had seen my newsreader reporting a problem
with sending the first one! My post was so important that I felt
compelled to make sure it got up there.

What everyone does not realise here is that Richard has enormous
potential and he deserves respect and encouragement to develop it. How
easy does anyone think it is to climb down from a truck and start
HTML/CSSing? It is an enormous change of personal direction.

 

[dorayme]

There is nothing clever about him.

Give him time, there are flashes of good sense and, if you keep an open
mind, you might be very surprised. Please try to make time this year to
encourage him as much as possible. Yes, I realise the temptations are
enormous but how about this scheme. For the next two years, you, JK, JL
and, above all, Richard's greatest anti-fan, Andy D, be all sweet and
light to him. And we review the effectiveness of this at the end of the
period.

 

[Chris F.A. Johnson]

Any idea? Good or bad!?

Example...

http://www.realitysoftware.ca/services/website-development/design/

IMHO very well design and of course validated.

Not very well coded:
<cfaj.freeshell.org/testing/reality.jpg>

 

[iwach]

Not very well coded:
<cfaj.freeshell.org/testing/reality.jpg>

What I'm surprised, these pages are showing properly in any of my editors.

Dreamweaver, Front Page 2003 and Expression Web. That is not happening
often!

Not using <p> saves space. What I've read here typing <font size -1>
etc. is wasting space because if millions of hits on a web page... bla
bla bla...

This web site is one of the best and neat design I've ever seen without
any clutter, messy display in some browsers and editors, and of course
validates.

Graphic design is beautiful without distracting flash crap and moving gifs.


What else would you want?

 

[Chris F.A. Johnson]

What I'm surprised, these pages are showing properly in any of my editors.

Most people view web pages in browsers, not editors.

Dreamweaver, Front Page 2003 and Expression Web. That is not happening
often!

'Nuff said!

Not using <p> saves space. What I've read here typing <font size -1>
etc. is wasting space because if millions of hits on a web page... bla
bla bla...

This web site is one of the best and neat design I've ever seen without
any clutter, messy display in some browsers and editors, and of course
validates.

Graphic design is beautiful without distracting flash crap and moving gifs.

...if you ignore link text that is barely readable, headers
which are indistinguishable from the text, amateurish
containers that do not contain their text, etc..

What else would you want?

A page that works at my default text size.

 

[dorayme]

Not using <p> creates a sematic nonsense if you actually have
paragraphs.

OP is wrong to value so highly this "space spacing" quality of the
absence of the paragraph element. But it is not quite true that its
absence entails semantic nonsense for bunches of text that a user will
see or hear or feel as a paragraph.

The most we can say is play safe because there is a danger that it could
be not as usable as it should be.

 

[Blinky the Shark]

What I'm surprised, these pages are showing properly in any of my editors.

Dreamweaver, Front Page 2003 and Expression Web. That is not happening
often!

Not using <p> saves space. What I've read here typing <font size -1> etc.
is wasting space because if millions of hits on a web page... bla bla
bla...

This web site is one of the best and neat design I've ever seen without
any clutter, messy display in some browsers and editors, and of course
validates.

Graphic design is beautiful without distracting flash crap and moving
gifs.

What else would you want?

To p or not to p; that is the question.

 

[Chaddy2222]

Oooh, contentious!!!

Reason I like it - it just fits better in my slightly anal version of how
disciplined markup should look. I like things indented neatly, I like
"code"-y bits clearly differentiated in the markup. I like tags to have an
open and close. And clients like having their websites designed with
something with an "X" in it.

It doesn't actually do any *harm* to serve XHTML as HTML, save for the harm
it does to the concept, but until the big M rectifies that, the concept is
dead in the water.

But, you can do the same stuff with XHTML served as text/html that
you can with HTML 4.01 Strict, so you really are better off just
useing HTML 4.01 as XHTMl in the majority of cases has no benifit.
It can actually be harmfull as it throws IE7 into quirks mode, while
as HTML 4.01 strict users standards mode.