Online documentation for Geko/Mozilla browsers???

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Aidan, Nov 13, 2004.

  1. Aidan

    Aidan Guest

    I rely heavily on MSDN for documentation when it comes to
    HTML/DHTML/JavaScript/CSS but as a result I often have problems getting my
    stuff to work in Netscape/Mozilla/Firefox. I like the MSDN online
    documentation
    (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/workshop/author/dhtml/re
    ference/objects.asp) because it has complete lists of DHTML objects,
    properties, methods, collections and event and for each element you can
    easily view all the applicable attributes/propertes, behaviors, collections,
    events, filters, methods, objects and styles. And it is a all very well
    cross-referenced so for example if you are looking at an event you can see
    all the elements that it applies to.

    Is there any online equivalent for Mozilla/Geko based browsers?

    I have explored the Gecko DOM reference at
    http://www.mozilla.org/docs/dom/domref but frankly this sucks. I cannot find
    a complete list of all HTML elements and all attributes/properties, methods,
    events, styles etc. I'm thinking there has got to be some decent
    documentation like that on MSDN out there., can anybody point me in the
    right direction?
     
    Aidan, Nov 13, 2004
    #1
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  2. Aidan

    brucie Guest

    In alt.html,alt.html.dhtml Aidan said:

    > I cannot find a complete list of all HTML elements and all
    > attributes/properties, methods, events, styles etc. I'm thinking
    > there has got to be some decent documentation like that on MSDN out
    > there., can anybody point me in the right direction?


    cascading style sheets, level 2 specification
    http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
    cascading style sheets, level 2 revision 1 Candidate Recommendation
    http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
    master compatibility charts:
    http://centricle.com/ref/css/filters/
    http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/index.html
    http://macedition.com/cb/resources/abridgedcsssupport.html
    old:
    http://www.immix.net/html/CSSGuide.htm
    http://devedge.netscape.com/library/xref/2003/css-support/
    opera support: http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/css/
    HTML 4.01 Specification:
    http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/






    --
    the facts and opinions expressed by brucies
    l i t t l e v o i c e s
    are not necessarily the same as those held by brucie.
     
    brucie, Nov 13, 2004
    #2
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  3. On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:25:36 +1000, brucie <> wrote:

    [snip]

    > http://devedge.netscape.com/library/xref/2003/css-support/


    That link's dead now. You could always use the Wayback Machine for the
    time being:
    <URL:http://web.archive.org/web/20040202055733/http://devedge.netscape.com/library/xref/2003/css-support/>.

    [snip]

    I suppose you should also add the W3C DOM Recommendations:
    <URL:http://www.w3.org/DOM/DOMTR>.

    Mike

    --
    Michael Winter
    Replace ".invalid" with ".uk" to reply by e-mail.
     
    Michael Winter, Nov 13, 2004
    #3
  4. Aidan

    Aidan Guest

    Thanks for the response. http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/html/index2.htm
    looks a bit like the type of thing I am looking for but unfortunately this
    one is more than a year out of date, I need to see what is supported in the
    latest browsers such as Firefox 1.0. I am not looking for seperate
    stand-alone CSS docs, what I need is a complete and comprehensive
    cross-reference for element, attributes/properties, methods, events and
    styles supported by Mozilla based browsers. I'm thinking there has got to be
    something like this out there? I've used Danny Goodman's JavaScript Bible
    for a few years now but I need something more up to date and online. MSDN is
    excellent for IE, I really want an MSDN equivalent for Mozilla based
    browsers, surely there's got to be some decent documentation online?
     
    Aidan, Nov 13, 2004
    #4
  5. Aidan

    brucie Guest

    In alt.html,alt.html.dhtml Aidan said:

    > I need to see what is supported in the
    > latest browsers such as Firefox 1.0.


    that nice

    What is the accepted way to share a message across multiple newsgroups?
    http://smjg.port5.com/faqs/usenet/xpost.html


    --
    the facts and opinions expressed by brucies
    l i t t l e v o i c e s
    are not necessarily the same as those held by brucie.
     
    brucie, Nov 13, 2004
    #5
  6. Aidan

    SpaceGirl Guest

    Aidan wrote:
    > Thanks for the response. http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/html/index2.htm
    > looks a bit like the type of thing I am looking for but unfortunately this
    > one is more than a year out of date, I need to see what is supported in the
    > latest browsers such as Firefox 1.0. I am not looking for seperate
    > stand-alone CSS docs, what I need is a complete and comprehensive
    > cross-reference for element, attributes/properties, methods, events and
    > styles supported by Mozilla based browsers. I'm thinking there has got to be
    > something like this out there? I've used Danny Goodman's JavaScript Bible
    > for a few years now but I need something more up to date and online. MSDN is
    > excellent for IE, I really want an MSDN equivalent for Mozilla based
    > browsers, surely there's got to be some decent documentation online?
    >
    >
    >



    Hmmm but FireFox is written to render the W3C standards, not arbitary
    in-house stuff like MS does with IE. So, your point of reference should
    be w3c. FireFox's DOM is pretty strict, and sticks to the standards
    pretty well. Which is why you dont need an MSDN for FireFox...

    Anyway, O'Reilly do some great CSS ref books. Use them.

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Nov 13, 2004
    #6
  7. Aidan

    Aidan Guest

    "SpaceGirl" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > Hmmm but FireFox is written to render the W3C standards, not arbitary
    > in-house stuff like MS does with IE. So, your point of reference should
    > be w3c. FireFox's DOM is pretty strict, and sticks to the standards
    > pretty well. Which is why you dont need an MSDN for FireFox...
    >
    > Anyway, O'Reilly do some great CSS ref books. Use them.


    OK, I've concluded that the documentation I'm looking for does not exist.
    The W3C stuff is more of a spec than a developers reference so it is to
    difficult to find what I need. Love or hate MS, they have got some very user
    friendly documentation for IE, I just wish there was something like this for
    mozzilla or generic W3C DHTML. Also I was thinking that the different
    versions of mozilla/gecko have differences in what they support so they
    would not tie in exactly to the generic W3C standard. I think there is a
    major need for some a good online reference that cross-references all the
    technologies/standards and makes it easy for developers to find what they
    need without having to sift through a bunch of different sources.
     
    Aidan, Nov 13, 2004
    #7
  8. Aidan

    SpaceGirl Guest

    Aidan wrote:
    > "SpaceGirl" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >
    >>Hmmm but FireFox is written to render the W3C standards, not arbitary
    >>in-house stuff like MS does with IE. So, your point of reference should
    >>be w3c. FireFox's DOM is pretty strict, and sticks to the standards
    >>pretty well. Which is why you dont need an MSDN for FireFox...
    >>
    >>Anyway, O'Reilly do some great CSS ref books. Use them.

    >
    >
    > OK, I've concluded that the documentation I'm looking for does not exist.
    > The W3C stuff is more of a spec than a developers reference so it is to
    > difficult to find what I need. Love or hate MS, they have got some very user
    > friendly documentation for IE, I just wish there was something like this for
    > mozzilla or generic W3C DHTML. Also I was thinking that the different
    > versions of mozilla/gecko have differences in what they support so they
    > would not tie in exactly to the generic W3C standard. I think there is a
    > major need for some a good online reference that cross-references all the
    > technologies/standards and makes it easy for developers to find what they
    > need without having to sift through a bunch of different sources.
    >
    >


    www.w3schools.com is THE place to learn stuff if you get stuck.
    www.alistapart.com is also a great reference.

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Nov 13, 2004
    #8
  9. SpaceGirl wrote:
    > www.w3schools.com is THE place to learn stuff if you get stuck.


    No, it really isn't. To quote from page 1 of their "Learn to use HTML"
    section.

    > How does the browser fetch the pages?
    >
    > * A browser fetches a Web page from a server by a request.


    Yes, and I get books by placing an order at Amazon. (Lets ignore the bit
    where Amazon finds the books, packages them up, gives them to the post
    office, and they bring them to my office where I have to walk down to the
    collection shelves and pick them up.

    This also fails to take into account that most webpages are made up of more
    then one resource (images, style sheets, JavaScripts, etc) so the browser
    has to make multiple requests.

    > * A request is a standard HTTP request containing a page address.


    Not according to the w3s definition of page address. An HTTP 1.0 request
    will include the protocol and part parts of the URI, and HTTP 1.1 request
    will unclude the authority part as well. A request for
    "http://www.someone.com/page.htm" will look something like:

    GET /page.htm HTTP/1.0

    or

    GET /page.htm HTTP/1.1
    Host: www.someone.com

    So the http gets the case trasformed, the "://" is lost, the authority might
    be dropped entirely and the remaining parts appear in a different order
    with other data in between. The "page address" doesn't actually appear at
    all.

    > * A page address looks like this: http://www.someone.com/page.htm.


    I've never see this called a "page address" before. "URI" - yes. "URL" -
    yes. "Address" - yes. Not "page address" though.

    > How does the browser display the pages?
    >
    > * All Web pages contain instructions for display


    No they don't. An HTML 4.01 Strict document with no style sheet is very
    unlikely to include any information about how to display it. Not that there
    are any instructions anyway. The markup provides semantic information, the
    style sheet provides presentational hints.

    > * The browser displays the page by reading these instructions.


    .... and processing them, etc etc.

    > * The most common display instructions are called HTML tags.


    .... which should not be used for presentation.

    > * HTML tags look like this <p>This is a Paragraph</p>.


    No, that looks more like an element. It consists of two tags and some text.

    > Who is making the Web standards?
    >
    > * The Web standards are not made up by Netscape or Microsoft.


    http://w3.org/Consortium/Member/List - err... Microsoft is on the list.

    > * The rule-making body of the Web is the W3C.


    The W3C produces Recommendations, not Rules.

    > * W3C stands for the World Wide Web Consortium.


    Amazing! They got something right!

    > * W3C puts together specifications for Web standards.
    > * The most essential Web standards are HTML, CSS and XML.


    Opinion (and not one I agree with).

    > * The latest HTML standard is XHTML 1.0.


    No, its HTML 4.01. The W3C are pretty clear that XHTML is a replacement for
    HTML, not a new version of it.

    .... and that is just on the first page of their tutorial! Its a sad fact
    that there are no really good online HTML tutorials at present. Its
    probably best to stick to the specification (which is really pretty
    readable).

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
     
    David Dorward, Nov 13, 2004
    #9
  10. Aidan

    Toby Inkster Guest

    David Dorward wrote:

    > ... and that is just on the first page of their tutorial! Its a sad fact
    > that there are no really good online HTML tutorials at present.


    That's not entirely true. Blowing my own trumpet, I started work on what I
    felt was a good HTML tutorial a couple of years or so ago, back when I
    thought there were "no really good online HTML tutorials at present". :)

    http://tobyinkster.co.uk/html-tutorial

    It's not entirely finished yet, but getting there. It starts with the
    philosophy of HTML; then takes the reader through a simple worked example
    marking up a short document and introducing a few basic elements (HTML,
    HEAD, BODY, H1-H6, P, IMG, A, DIV, SPAN, TITLE, LINK and META); then
    introduces the concept of stylesheets, though doesn't go into too much
    detail; then touches on entities; then goes through lists (UL, OL, DL,
    DD, DT, LI), inline semantic elements (EM, STRONG, ABBR, Q, etc), layout
    elements (PRE, BR), horizontal rules, block semantic elements (ADDRESS,
    BLOCKQUOTE) and tables.

    When it's finished, it will contain a more complete worked example and
    links to other valuable resources.

    Since I started writing the tutorial though, I have discovered that there
    are decent HTML tutorials out there. Two that I like are:

    - http://www.htmldog.com/
    - http://tranchant.plus.com/web/html-tutorial/

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Nov 13, 2004
    #10
  11. Aidan wrote:
    > OK, I've concluded that the documentation I'm looking for does not exist.


    You're looking (in part) for an extensive reference for HTML and CSS.
    Since the W3C *wrote* HTML and CSS, they have the best references for
    them. Microsoft copied these languages and morphed them into something
    that defies standards and only works in IE. Their documentation is flawed.

    > The W3C stuff is more of a spec than a developers reference so it is to
    > difficult to find what I need.


    Well, it is a spec. However, I don't see how you are differenctiating
    spec and developer reference. Do you need pages such as these:

    http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/propidx.html
    http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/index/attributes.html
    http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/index/elements.html

    I have found these to be some of the most helpful pages in the specs,
    aside from the actual documentation they link to.

    > Also I was thinking that the different
    > versions of mozilla/gecko have differences in what they support so they
    > would not tie in exactly to the generic W3C standard.


    Incorrect. Mozilla knows what the word "standard" means.
    --
    Michael Wilcox, http://dataportalen.com/mike/
     
    Michael Wilcox, Nov 13, 2004
    #11
  12. Aidan

    DU Guest

    Aidan wrote:
    > "SpaceGirl" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >
    >>Hmmm but FireFox is written to render the W3C standards, not arbitary
    >>in-house stuff like MS does with IE. So, your point of reference should
    >>be w3c. FireFox's DOM is pretty strict, and sticks to the standards
    >>pretty well. Which is why you dont need an MSDN for FireFox...
    >>
    >>Anyway, O'Reilly do some great CSS ref books. Use them.

    >
    >
    > OK, I've concluded that the documentation I'm looking for does not exist.
    > The W3C stuff is more of a spec than a developers reference so it is to
    > difficult to find what I need. Love or hate MS, they have got some very user
    > friendly documentation for IE, I just wish there was something like this for
    > mozzilla or generic W3C DHTML.


    I said something similar (when referring to Gecko DOM reference) approx.
    3 years ago.

    Also I was thinking that the different
    > versions of mozilla/gecko have differences in what they support so they
    > would not tie in exactly to the generic W3C standard.



    You have a point. Which standard (property, attribute, method, etc) is
    supported by which version of a particular mozilla product (Mozilla,
    Firefox, etc)? You'll never find this out easily without testing thoroughly.

    I think there is a
    > major need for some a good online reference that cross-references all the
    > technologies/standards and makes it easy for developers to find what they
    > need without having to sift through a bunch of different sources.
    >


    I personally do not want to wait anymore for such kind of
    super-cross-reference of all technologies/standards from Gecko DOM
    Reference. I think the most practical approach is to verify empirically
    the standard/technology you want to use. There are bugs and regression
    also: version x might support some technology and then later, version y
    might no longer support it. I've seen this.

    2 other possibilities: contribute and offer to help. I have in several
    bugs related to documentation. Join DocDay in irc://moznet/documentation.
    You can start a thread in netscape.public.mozilla.documentation
    You'll never improve Gecko DOM reference in alt.html.dhtml btw.

    DU
    --
    The site said to use Internet Explorer 5 or better... so I switched to
    Mozilla 1.7.3 :)
     
    DU, Nov 14, 2004
    #12
  13. Aidan

    DU Guest

    Aidan wrote:

    > I rely heavily on MSDN for documentation when it comes to
    > HTML/DHTML/JavaScript/CSS but as a result I often have problems getting my
    > stuff to work in Netscape/Mozilla/Firefox. I like the MSDN online
    > documentation
    > (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/workshop/author/dhtml/re
    > ference/objects.asp) because it has complete lists of DHTML objects,
    > properties, methods, collections and event and for each element you can
    > easily view all the applicable attributes/propertes, behaviors, collections,
    > events, filters, methods, objects and styles.


    Many of them have properties or attributes which do not apply to
    elements. So, that resource is useful but not 100% accurate, not 100%
    reliable. The bottom line is you always need to verify empirically what
    you code.

    And it is a all very well
    > cross-referenced so for example if you are looking at an event you can see
    > all the elements that it applies to.
    >
    > Is there any online equivalent for Mozilla/Geko based browsers?
    >
    > I have explored the Gecko DOM reference at
    > http://www.mozilla.org/docs/dom/domref but frankly this sucks. I cannot find
    > a complete list of all HTML elements and all attributes/properties, methods,
    > events, styles etc.


    Even if you could find such list (and you do have such a list with DOM
    inspector btw), you would still need clear explanations, descriptions,
    examples (preferably interactive), browser version support,
    cross-browser version, links to other pages discussing that
    attribute/method/event/style/whatever, etc.. to make such documentation
    useful, worthy.
    Achieving this implies a collective effort into documentation.
    Mozilla.org is weak in that area, I'd say.

    I'm thinking there has got to be some decent
    > documentation like that on MSDN out there., can anybody point me in the
    > right direction?
    >


    Start with a good tool like Mozilla's DOM inspector which will return a
    much more reliable list of supported properties/methods/... for you.
    Such support may not be perfectly reliable.. that's another issue again.

    DU
    --
    The site said to use Internet Explorer 5 or better... so I switched to
    Mozilla 1.7.3 :)
     
    DU, Nov 14, 2004
    #13
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