Opinion: Do web standards matter?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Sugapablo, Mar 26, 2005.

  1. Sugapablo

    Sugapablo Guest

    Just out of curiosity, while checking on a site I was working on, I
    decided to throw a couple of the web's most popular URLs into the W3C
    Markup Validator.

    Out of microsoft.com, google.com, amazon.com, yahoo.com, aol.com, and
    mozilla.org, only Mozilla's site came back "Valid HTML".

    So if all these places, with their teams of web developers don't seem to
    care, should the rest of us small time web devs concern ourselves with
    standards? I do, but sometimes I feel it's a wasted effort. What do yinz
    think?

    P.S. Slashdot returned a 403 Forbidden to the validator but when I saved
    the homepage locally, it failed too.


    --
    [ Sugapablo ]
    [ http://www.sugapablo.net <--personal | http://www.sugapablo.com <--music ]
    [ http://www.2ra.org <--political | http://www.subuse.net <--discuss ]

    http://www.subuse.net : text-only, low bandwidth, anonymous web forums
    Sugapablo, Mar 26, 2005
    #1
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  2. On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:01:30 -0500, Sugapablo wrote:

    > Just out of curiosity, while checking on a site I was working on, I
    > decided to throw a couple of the web's most popular URLs into the W3C
    > Markup Validator.
    >
    > Out of microsoft.com, google.com, amazon.com, yahoo.com, aol.com, and
    > mozilla.org, only Mozilla's site came back "Valid HTML".
    >
    > So if all these places, with their teams of web developers don't seem to
    > care, should the rest of us small time web devs concern ourselves with
    > standards? I do, but sometimes I feel it's a wasted effort. What do yinz
    > think?
    >
    > P.S. Slashdot returned a 403 Forbidden to the validator but when I saved
    > the homepage locally, it failed too.


    I follow the standards. It isn't a guarantee that the page(s) will work
    everywhere, but I like to think it will. Maybe eventually, the browsers
    will catch up and follow the standards too. In the mean time, some
    manufacturers like to make their own standards, rather than following
    those already in existance.

    I also try to produce pages with minimal bloat. Keep the pages small, so
    they load fast. It also makes them easier to edit later on.

    Carolyn
    Carolyn Marenger, Mar 26, 2005
    #2
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  3. Sugapablo

    Sugapablo Guest

    On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:08:11 -0500, Carolyn Marenger wrote:

    > I also try to produce pages with minimal bloat. Keep the pages small, so
    > they load fast. It also makes them easier to edit later on.


    Yeah, that's why I created http://www.subuse.net

    Sometimes, I still get this romantic nostalgia for the days when I had a
    2400 baud modem, telix, lynx, and nothing but command line. Silly, but...

    Plus, today, with so many web phones and mobile devices, there aren't many
    sites that work well with them, so I figured there's a need for minimalism
    again.

    --
    [ Sugapablo ]
    [ http://www.sugapablo.net <--personal | http://www.sugapablo.com <--music ]
    [ http://www.2ra.org <--political | http://www.subuse.net <--discuss ]

    http://www.subuse.net : text-only, low bandwidth, anonymous web forums
    Sugapablo, Mar 26, 2005
    #3
  4. Sugapablo wrote:

    > Just out of curiosity, while checking on a site I was working on, I
    > decided to throw a couple of the web's most popular URLs into the W3C
    > Markup Validator.


    Good idea; good initiative.

    > Out of microsoft.com, google.com, amazon.com, yahoo.com, aol.com, and
    > mozilla.org, only Mozilla's site came back "Valid HTML".


    That is sad news. This reflects on disregard for standards and moreover --
    the inexperience of Web developers that these companies hire.

    The movement of Web standards, much like that of Open Source, promotes a Web
    that does not discriminate. This benefits everybody. So surely, Amazon,
    Yahoo and M¥¢ro$o£t do not care enough. Mozilla have been discriminated
    against for many years.

    Want to know more about Web standards? Talk to the visually impaired, talk
    to the PDA user, talk to the person in Africa who cannot afford a Window$
    licence.

    > So if all these places, with their teams of web developers don't seem to
    > care, should the rest of us small time web devs concern ourselves with
    > standards?


    Yes. One day many of us will have to 'clean up' our Web sites. You, however,
    will not need to do so. Your present effort will be merited. 1 year ago
    people designed their site to be compatible with IE. With so much going on
    at the moment, can anyone look 5 years ahead?

    > I do, but sometimes I feel it's a wasted effort. What do yinz
    > think?


    Once you practice a few validations, you learn from your mistakes and no
    longer repeat them. Valid code becomes innate.

    > P.S. Slashdot returned a 403 Forbidden to the validator but when I saved
    > the homepage locally, it failed too.


    Ouch. Probably the result of several people collaborating on content.

    Roy

    --
    Roy Schestowitz
    http://schestowitz.com
    Roy Schestowitz, Mar 26, 2005
    #4
  5. Sugapablo wrote:

    > Just out of curiosity, while checking on a site I was working on, I
    > decided to throw a couple of the web's most popular URLs into the W3C
    > Markup Validator.
    >
    > Out of microsoft.com, google.com, amazon.com, yahoo.com, aol.com, and
    > mozilla.org, only Mozilla's site came back "Valid HTML".
    >
    > So if all these places, with their teams of web developers don't seem to
    > care, should the rest of us small time web devs concern ourselves with
    > standards? I do, but sometimes I feel it's a wasted effort. What do yinz
    > think?
    >
    > P.S. Slashdot returned a 403 Forbidden to the validator but when I saved
    > the homepage locally, it failed too.

    You should note that it can be pretty hard to get such pages (I mean the
    large portal like microsoft, yahoo...) valid. Such pages are dynamically
    constructed with content from various sources. It is more of an
    organizational monster act, to get the code corrected in databases in
    various departments (finding and convincing the responsible people first),
    hardcoded in custom software (perhaps developed by external contractors),
    ad code delivered by affiliates...

    mozilla.org is (compared to the others) a pretty small site and has just
    been redesigned.
    Even if the others started fixing their sites two year ago, I wouldn't
    expect them to get the job done by now.
    Microsoft for example just started this job (not sure, if it was
    microsoft.com or another of their portal sites). They did pretty well, but
    are still far from being perfect. IIRC some microsoft guy wrote about it -
    and the obstacles in his blog.


    --
    Benjamin Niemann
    Email: pink at odahoda dot de
    WWW: http://www.odahoda.de/
    Benjamin Niemann, Mar 26, 2005
    #5
  6. Sugapablo

    accooper Guest

    I too try and follow the standards but I don't take much stock in the W3C
    validator. Sometimes it will say stupid stuff like " a space is not allowed
    here". I mean is that really gunna make a difference.

    Also on things like CSS, IE does not support correctly half of it. Like
    positioning is iffy. So I try my best and test my pages in IE and Mozilla or
    Fire Bird. I'm more worried about my spelling!

    --
    Andrew C. Cooper
    www.wordforlife.com/cmhm
    Check Out Our New Free Christian
    Music Downloads At
    www.wordforlife.com
    "Sugapablo" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:08:11 -0500, Carolyn Marenger wrote:
    >
    >> I also try to produce pages with minimal bloat. Keep the pages small, so
    >> they load fast. It also makes them easier to edit later on.

    >
    > Yeah, that's why I created http://www.subuse.net
    >
    > Sometimes, I still get this romantic nostalgia for the days when I had a
    > 2400 baud modem, telix, lynx, and nothing but command line. Silly, but...
    >
    > Plus, today, with so many web phones and mobile devices, there aren't many
    > sites that work well with them, so I figured there's a need for minimalism
    > again.
    >
    > --
    > [
    > ]
    > [ http://www.sugapablo.net <--personal | http://www.sugapablo.com
    > <--music ]
    > [ http://www.2ra.org <--political | http://www.subuse.net
    > <--discuss ]
    >
    > http://www.subuse.net : text-only, low bandwidth, anonymous web forums
    accooper, Mar 26, 2005
    #6
  7. Sugapablo

    Jim Royal Guest

    In article <>,
    Sugapablo <> wrote:

    > So if all these places, with their teams of web developers don't seem to
    > care, should the rest of us small time web devs concern ourselves with
    > standards? I do, but sometimes I feel it's a wasted effort. What do yinz
    > think?


    Web standards are validation are a tool for you, for your own
    development work -- today and into the future. But there's no value to
    the visitor in trumpeting a web site as standards-compliant. No one
    cares. But it definitely makes your job easier if you can check your
    code against the W3C validators.

    The Microsoft, Amazon and Yahoo! sites are works in progress. They
    contain a great deal of legacy content and code, and are being modified
    and updated all the time, on the fly. It is not surpirsing that such
    sites are not yet standards-compliant. Only sites that are rewritten
    from the ground-up can be made easily using web standards.

    If web standards help you as a web developer, then use them, and forget
    what the huge portals are doing.

    --
    Jim Royal
    "Understanding is a three-edged sword"
    http://JimRoyal.com
    Jim Royal, Mar 26, 2005
    #7
  8. On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:01:30 -0500, Sugapablo
    <> wrote:

    >Just out of curiosity, while checking on a site I was working on, I
    >decided to throw a couple of the web's most popular URLs into the W3C
    >Markup Validator.
    >
    >Out of microsoft.com, google.com, amazon.com, yahoo.com, aol.com, and
    >mozilla.org, only Mozilla's site came back "Valid HTML".
    >


    Why, I'm *shocked* that major corporations aren't developing to
    standards! ;-)

    >So if all these places, with their teams of web developers don't seem to
    >care, should the rest of us small time web devs concern ourselves with
    >standards? I do, but sometimes I feel it's a wasted effort.


    Think of it as "future-proofing" your markup. You won't have to go
    back and fix your sites that are broken in IE 8.2 or Fire&animal; 3.5.


    >What do yinz think?


    I think you must be from Pittsburgh.

    Nick

    --
    Nick Theodorakis

    contact form:
    http://theodorakis.net/contact.html
    Nick Theodorakis, Mar 26, 2005
    #8
  9. Sugapablo wrote:

    > Out of microsoft.com, google.com, amazon.com, yahoo.com, aol.com, and
    > mozilla.org, only Mozilla's site came back "Valid HTML".
    >
    > So if all these places, with their teams of web developers don't seem to
    > care, should the rest of us small time web devs concern ourselves with
    > standards? I do, but sometimes I feel it's a wasted effort. What do yinz
    > think?


    I took a look at the nutrition info for some of the most popular eateries in
    the US: McDonald's, Wendy's, Burger King, Pizza Hut, and Taco Bell. Turns
    out they're terrible for you! Loaded down with fat, sugar, and sodium.

    So, if these places don't seem to care, why should the rest of us concern
    ourselves with nutrition when we're cooking our own meals?

    sherm--

    --
    Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
    Hire me! My resume: http://www.dot-app.org
    Sherm Pendley, Mar 26, 2005
    #9
  10. Sugapablo

    Toby Inkster Guest

    accooper wrote:

    > I too try and follow the standards but I don't take much stock in the
    > W3C validator. Sometimes it will say stupid stuff like " a space is not
    > allowed here". I mean is that really gunna make a difference.


    The W3C validator doesn't ask itself "is this mistake going to make a
    difference?" It just asks "is this valid?" And when it answers, it's
    rarely incorrect.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
    Toby Inkster, Mar 26, 2005
    #10
  11. On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:01:30 -0500, Sugapablo <> wrote:

    > So if all these places, with their teams of web developers don't seem to
    > care, should the rest of us small time web devs concern ourselves with
    > standards?


    Violating my own standards here (read all responses already made, before
    responding myself, as to avoid duplication of answers):

    I get my motivation to code according to standards from within. I don't really
    care what others do. _I_ mind, because:
    - I like to create with a certain quality, and I think working according to
    standards adds quality to what I create;
    - I experience how easy it is to maintain quality code;
    - I experience how easy it is to find flaws and mistakes with validating my
    pages every now and again, when I made some major changes; flaws and mistakes
    that can influence the rendering of my pages in a way that I think is
    undesirable;
    - I experience expanding my knowledge (train as I 'fight') if I challange myself
    to stay within standards.

    But, I like to be a bit naughty sometimes, so I created my own DTD that included
    the <nobr> for example. So 'web standards' is really what you make of them in
    the end, how else does evolution get a change ;-)

    Now, I'll read what others had to say on this.

    --
    ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
    | weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
    | webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
    |zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
    `-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'
    Barbara de Zoete, Mar 26, 2005
    #11
  12. Toby Inkster wrote:

    > accooper wrote:
    >
    >> I too try and follow the standards but I don't take much stock in the
    >> W3C validator. Sometimes it will say stupid stuff like " a space is not
    >> allowed here". I mean is that really gunna make a difference.

    >
    > The W3C validator doesn't ask itself "is this mistake going to make a
    > difference?" It just asks "is this valid?" And when it answers, it's
    > rarely incorrect.


    Actually it answers (should answer) "it /is/ correct", as defined by the
    standards in question. At present this means that it will "rarely be
    rendered incorrectly by browsers". This implies that some browsers are
    broken, not the validators which rely on formal standards.

    Roy

    --
    Roy Schestowitz
    http://schestowitz.com
    Roy Schestowitz, Mar 26, 2005
    #12
  13. Sugapablo

    Adrienne Guest

    Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Sugapablo
    <> writing in
    news:p:

    > Out of microsoft.com, google.com, amazon.com, yahoo.com, aol.com, and
    > mozilla.org, only Mozilla's site came back "Valid HTML".


    Opera is valid XHTML

    >
    > So if all these places, with their teams of web developers don't seem
    > to care, should the rest of us small time web devs concern ourselves
    > with standards? I do, but sometimes I feel it's a wasted effort. What
    > do yinz think?
    >


    I write valid markup for a few reasons:

    1. It's easier for me to write to standards.
    2. It's easier to find bugs. I do a lot of server side coding, and I
    find it's easier to find a server side bug if I know the markup is valid
    first. 3. Documents are more consistent across browsers and platforms.
    4. Search engines seem to like valid markup better, and they seem to like
    semantic markup even more. 5. I'm a control freak. I like everything to
    be "just so".


    --
    Adrienne Boswell
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne, Mar 26, 2005
    #13
  14. Sugapablo

    David Ross Guest

    If my Web page complies with the W3C specifications, any problem
    you have with viewing it as I intended is the fault of your
    browser. It's not my fault, and I won't do anything about it.

    If your page does not comply with the specifications and guidelines
    — or worse uses proprietary capabilities found in only one
    company's browser — any problem that I have with viewing it as you
    intended may easily be the fault of your Web page. You need to fix
    your page before pointing an accusing finger at my browser. If you
    don't care, then I don't choose to view your page.

    For details, see
    <URL:http://www.rossde.com/internet/Webdevelopers.html>.

    --

    David E. Ross
    <URL:http://www.rossde.com/>

    I use Mozilla as my Web browser because I want a browser that
    complies with Web standards. See <URL:http://www.mozilla.org/>.
    David Ross, Mar 26, 2005
    #14
  15. Sugapablo

    Uncle Pirate Guest

    Sugapablo wrote:

    > So if all these places, with their teams of web developers don't seem to
    > care, should the rest of us small time web devs concern ourselves with
    > standards? I do, but sometimes I feel it's a wasted effort. What do yinz
    > think?


    I sometimes wonder if it's worth it too. I try to stick to the
    recommendations and do none of the stuff that causes me to leave so many
    sites today. I also teach HTML and I use the w3c validator as part of
    my grading. I do tell me students that I am teaching them the "correct"
    way and expect all of their pages to validate. Once they are done with
    the class however, they are free to follow the recommendation they want
    to (loose, strict, whatever). I've seen many of my students finish the
    class and go right back to table layout and either no doctype or a loose
    doctype.

    Because the browser manufacturers allow the crap code to work, it's a
    losing battle. Personnally, though, I'll keep putting out the best
    markup that I possibly can.

    --
    Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
    Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
    Coordinator, Tularosa Basin Chapter, ABATE of NM; AMA#758681; COBB
    '94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) :( http://motorcyclefun.org/Dcp_2068c.jpg
    A zest for living must include a willingness to die. - R.A. Heinlein
    Uncle Pirate, Mar 26, 2005
    #15
  16. On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:29:16 -0700, Uncle Pirate <> wrote:

    > I also teach HTML and I use the w3c validator as part of my grading. I do
    > tell me students that I am teaching them the "correct" way and expect all of
    > their pages to validate. Once they are done with the class however, they are
    > free to follow the recommendation they want to (loose, strict, whatever).
    > I've seen many of my students finish the class and go right back to table
    > layout and either no doctype or a loose doctype.
    >


    Hmmm. Makes me wounder. What is the reason you give your students? Not just so
    they understand the knowledge you provide, but the actual insight, wisdom,
    whatever, that takes them beyond the simple understanding level. What is it you
    strive to accomplish with your students?

    --
    ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
    | weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
    | webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
    |zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
    `-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'
    Barbara de Zoete, Mar 26, 2005
    #16
  17. Sugapablo

    Uncle Pirate Guest

    Barbara de Zoete wrote:
    > On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:29:16 -0700, Uncle Pirate <> wrote:
    >
    >> I also teach HTML and I use the w3c validator as part of my grading.
    >> I do tell me students that I am teaching them the "correct" way and
    >> expect all of their pages to validate. Once they are done with the
    >> class however, they are free to follow the recommendation they want
    >> to (loose, strict, whatever). I've seen many of my students finish
    >> the class and go right back to table layout and either no doctype or
    >> a loose doctype.
    >>

    >
    > Hmmm. Makes me wounder. What is the reason you give your students? Not
    > just so they understand the knowledge you provide, but the actual
    > insight, wisdom, whatever, that takes them beyond the simple
    > understanding level. What is it you strive to accomplish with your
    > students?


    I tell my students that "Transitional" means just that. Although things
    may "work" with no doctype or using the transitional method, it is
    outdated. The time of transition from a 1998 recommendation is long
    past; new pages *should* meet the recommendations. I give them
    information about quirks mode, how browsers render differently
    with/without various doctypes. I show them how much simpler pages are
    to work on eliminating the table layout methods. I try to teach the
    "modern correct" methods of web development. But I can only "make" them
    do it while they are taking my class and being graded on their
    assignments. Your question makes me wonder if I shouldn't gather some
    statistics to review. Your question just might make a good course
    assessment project. Thanks.

    --
    Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
    Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
    Coordinator, Tularosa Basin Chapter, ABATE of NM; AMA#758681; COBB
    '94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) :( http://motorcyclefun.org/Dcp_2068c.jpg
    A zest for living must include a willingness to die. - R.A. Heinlein
    Uncle Pirate, Mar 26, 2005
    #17
  18. On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 14:07:05 -0700, Uncle Pirate <> wrote:

    > Barbara de Zoete wrote:
    >> On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:29:16 -0700, Uncle Pirate <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> I also teach HTML and I use the w3c validator as part of my grading. I do
    >>> tell me students that I am teaching them the "correct" way and expect all
    >>> of their pages to validate. Once they are done with the class however,
    >>> they are free to follow the recommendation they want to (loose, strict,
    >>> whatever). I've seen many of my students finish the class and go right
    >>> back to table layout and either no doctype or a loose doctype.
    >>>

    >> Hmmm. Makes me wounder. What is the reason you give your students? Not just
    >> so they understand the knowledge you provide, but the actual insight,
    >> wisdom, whatever, that takes them beyond the simple understanding level.
    >> What is it you strive to accomplish with your students?

    >
    > I tell my students that "Transitional" means just that. Although things may
    > "work" with no doctype or using the transitional method, it is outdated. The
    > time of transition from a 1998 recommendation is long past; new pages *should*
    > meet the recommendations. I give them information about quirks mode, how
    > browsers render differently with/without various doctypes. I show them how
    > much simpler pages are to work on eliminating the table layout methods. I try
    > to teach the "modern correct" methods of web development. But I can only
    > "make" them do it while they are taking my class and being graded on their
    > assignments. Your question makes me wonder if I shouldn't gather some
    > statistics to review. Your question just might make a good course assessment
    > project. Thanks.
    >


    What I miss in your explanation to me, is the passion. The reasoning about
    Transitional is what they can read or figger out themselves. The passion tells
    them about reaching all people on earth that are somehow connected to the
    internet. No matter what machine, what browser, what ever means, if someone is
    connected, you can reach them.

    I once stood on a line in Europe, a path that was several thousands of
    kilometers long, knowing that with me, in a few hours before me and after me,
    over one hundred and fifty milion people stood on that same line. It was the
    path that plotted the course of the shadow on earth of a full sun eclips, as it
    occured. I rarely ever felt so bonded with people before or after, but sometimes
    I get that feeling if a visitor of my site responds out of the blue to my
    publishings.

    That. That is why I code to standards. I want everybody to be able to connect to
    me. If you are serious about reaching out, your code shows it.

    --
    ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
    | weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
    | webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
    |zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
    `-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'
    Barbara de Zoete, Mar 26, 2005
    #18
  19. Nick Theodorakis wrote:
    > On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:01:30 -0500, Sugapablo
    ><> wrote:


    >>Just out of curiosity, while checking on a site I was working on, I
    >>decided to throw a couple of the web's most popular URLs into the W3C
    >>Markup Validator.


    >>Out of microsoft.com, google.com, amazon.com, yahoo.com, aol.com, and
    >>mozilla.org, only Mozilla's site came back "Valid HTML".



    > Why, I'm *shocked* that major corporations aren't developing to
    > standards! ;-)


    >>So if all these places, with their teams of web developers don't seem to
    >>care, should the rest of us small time web devs concern ourselves with
    >>standards? I do, but sometimes I feel it's a wasted effort.


    > Think of it as "future-proofing" your markup. You won't have to go
    > back and fix your sites that are broken in IE 8.2 or Fire&animal; 3.5.


    >>What do yinz think?


    > I think you must be from Pittsburgh.


    :) I can't seem to find it, but there used to be a great dictionary
    site on how to talk like you're from Picksburgh. I think it's best if
    you have some Arn City within arm's reach.

    --
    Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
    Who has implemented Usenet Solution #45933:
    Now killing all posts originating at Google Groups
    Blinky the Shark, Mar 26, 2005
    #19
  20. [OT] Re: Opinion: Do web standards matter?

    Blinky the Shark wrote:

    > Nick Theodorakis wrote:


    >> On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:01:30 -0500, Sugapablo
    >><> wrote:


    >>>What do yinz think?


    >> I think you must be from Pittsburgh.


    >:) I can't seem to find it, but there used to be a great dictionary
    > site on how to talk like you're from Picksburgh. I think it's best if
    > you have some Arn City within arm's reach.


    http://www.pittsburghese.com/glossary.ep.html?type=nouns

    See dropdown for other categories.

    --
    Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
    Who has implemented Usenet Solution #45933:
    Now killing all posts originating at Google Groups
    Blinky the Shark, Mar 26, 2005
    #20
    1. Advertising

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