[OT?] C++ Standard - 14882:2003

S

Sumit Rajan

On searching ANSI's webstore (using 14882 as the keyword), I came across two
results: INCITS/ISO/IEC 14882-2003 for $18 and ISO/IEC 14882:2003 for $273.
Their file sizes seem identical. Are they the same in content also? Is the
$18 document - the INCITS one - substantially different from 14882:1998
which was previously available at this website?

Thanks.
Sumit.
 
J

Jacques Labuschagne

Sumit said:
On searching ANSI's webstore (using 14882 as the keyword), I came across two
results: INCITS/ISO/IEC 14882-2003 for $18 and ISO/IEC 14882:2003 for $273.
Their file sizes seem identical. Are they the same in content also? Is the
$18 document - the INCITS one - substantially different from 14882:1998
which was previously available at this website?

Thanks.
Sumit.

The electronic copy is $18, the hardcopy is $273. There's nothing wrong
with the cheap version (it's what I have; there's nothing missing).

Jacques.
 
S

Sumit Rajan

Jacques Labuschagne said:
The electronic copy is $18, the hardcopy is $273. There's nothing wrong
with the cheap version (it's what I have; there's nothing missing).

Jacques.

Thanks for responding,

The $273 version also seems to be an electronic version - it says that the
file size is 2.35 MB. Or do they mean that you get an electronic copy along
with you hardcopy?

Regards,
Sumit.
 
J

Jacques Labuschagne

Sumit said:
The $273 version also seems to be an electronic version - it says that the
file size is 2.35 MB. Or do they mean that you get an electronic copy along
with you hardcopy?

I assume you get an electronic copy free with the hardcopy. I just
bought the electronic copy and printed it out (on the departmental
printer, naturally). :)

Jacques.
 
S

Sumit Rajan

I assume you get an electronic copy free with the hardcopy. I just
bought the electronic copy and printed it out (on the departmental
printer, naturally). :)

Clever! :)

Do you have any idea as to whether there is a significant difference between
14882:1998 and 14882:2003?

Regards,
Sumit.
 
R

Ron Natalie

Sumit Rajan said:
On searching ANSI's webstore (using 14882 as the keyword), I came across two
results: INCITS/ISO/IEC 14882-2003 for $18 and ISO/IEC 14882:2003 for $273.
Their file sizes seem identical. Are they the same in content also? Is the
$18 document - the INCITS one - substantially different from 14882:1998
which was previously available at this website?

Yes, it's some quirk in the way ANSI and ISO interact. They used to have two prices
for the electronic 14882-1999 as well. When the 2003 (TC1 updates) was published
it seems that only the expensive version made the store. Nobody has indicated when
and if an "ANSI" cheap version will become available. Printed copies from J Wiley
in the UK are available at the normal text book prices (~$80).
 
R

Ron Natalie

Ron Natalie said:
Yes, it's some quirk in the way ANSI and ISO interact. They used to have two prices
for the electronic 14882-1999 as well. When the 2003 (TC1 updates) was published
it seems that only the expensive version made the store. Nobody has indicated when
and if an "ANSI" cheap version will become available. Printed copies from J Wiley
in the UK are available at the normal text book prices (~$80).
OK, I see, they have put out the 18$ version of the 2003.

By the way, ANSI SCREWS AGAIN! Thie 2003 version is missing the TABLE OF CONTENTS
in the book marks section that both the 1998 C++ and 1999 C standards have (and the section numbers
in the rest of the document are still not links as they were in the drafts).
 
C

CrayzeeWulf

Ron said:
By the way, ANSI SCREWS AGAIN! Thie 2003 version is missing the TABLE OF
CONTENTS in the book marks section that both the 1998 C++ and 1999 C
standards have (and the section numbers in the rest of the document are
still not links as they were in the drafts).
Yeah. That really sucks. The PDF file does not contain bookmarks or links;
this makes it very hard to navigate through the document. Is this really
ANSI's fault ?
 
A

Andrew Koenig

By the way, ANSI SCREWS AGAIN! Thie 2003 version is missing the TABLE OF
CONTENTS
in the book marks section that both the 1998 C++ and 1999 C standards have (and the section numbers
in the rest of the document are still not links as they were in the
drafts).

The version of the standard that I sent to ISO had bookmarks and a table of
contents, so if the official version is missing those, someone else must
have removed them.
 
R

Ron Natalie

Andrew Koenig said:
drafts).

The version of the standard that I sent to ISO had bookmarks and a table of
contents, so if the official version is missing those, someone else must
have removed them.
Probably lost when they hacked the thing into burning in the purchaser's name.
 
C

CrayzeeWulf

Andrew said:
The version of the standard that I sent to ISO had bookmarks and a table
of contents, so if the official version is missing those, someone else
must have removed them.
Is there any way to convince them fix the bookmarks and table of contents
back to the file you submitted ? I have sent them an email and will call
them on Monday. However, my pleas might be insignificant.

Thanks,
 
R

Ron Natalie

CrayzeeWulf said:
Is there any way to convince them fix the bookmarks and table of contents
back to the file you submitted ? I have sent them an email and will call
them on Monday. However, my pleas might be insignificant.
Well when the 1999 came out it was locked against text selection (and
cut and paste). There was much bitching and they fixed that. Since
I was a primary bitcher, they actually sent me the fixed version (although
they claimed they weren't going to do that for everybody).

Hey, Andy is the original document still troff (with tbl & pic), or did we go
to more sophisticated word processing in the intervening years?
 
A

Andrew Koenig

Hey, Andy is the original document still troff (with tbl & pic), or did we
go
to more sophisticated word processing in the intervening years?

It's still troff. It would be nice for the next standard to use something
more modern, but it's not obvious what it should be, and a lot of work to
convert it.
 
J

John Brown

The version of the standard that I sent to ISO had bookmarks and a table
of
contents, so if the official version is missing those, someone else must
have removed them.

Do you know why links were never implemented however, notwithstanding the
time required to facilitate this (in the index especially). The document is
extremely difficult to navigate. Even the page numbers in the index are
inaccurate from the perspective of someone trying to use "Go To Page" in
Acrobat Reader (you need to mentally add 26 to the page number seen in the
index). I was also told by another committee member sometime ago (his name
escapes me off-hand) that members even have an HTML version but the ISO
itself is responsible for its release as a ".pdf" file. The document may be
just an electronic copy of the final standard but I suspect many developers
(myself included) frequently reference it. Proper page numbers, links, and
the ability to move back and forth to previously visited pages like in one's
favorite (HTML) browser would be a welcome relief. I could contact the ISO
if they're ultimately responsible but I seriously doubt it would go
anywhere. An official source would carry much more weight. Your comments?
Thanks.
 
A

Andrew Koenig

Do you know why links were never implemented however, notwithstanding the
time required to facilitate this (in the index especially).

The main reason is that the standard is produced using tools that were
designed for producing paper, and predate the existence of the web and
hyperlinks.
 
S

Sumit Rajan

Ron Natalie said:
By the way, ANSI SCREWS AGAIN! Thie 2003 version is missing the TABLE OF CONTENTS
in the book marks section that both the 1998 C++ and 1999 C standards have (and the section numbers
in the rest of the document are still not links as they were in the
drafts).

I had sent them an email yesterday complaining about this. They have now
rectified this issue and sent me the version with the bookmarks.

Regards,
Sumit.
 
R

Ron Natalie

I had sent them an email yesterday complaining about this. They have now
rectified this issue and sent me the version with the bookmarks.
Yes, they just emailed me one as well.
 
D

Dietmar Kuehl

John Brown said:
I was also told by another committee member sometime ago (his name
escapes me off-hand) that members even have an HTML version but the ISO
itself is responsible for its release as a ".pdf" file.

There is indeed a HTML version used by committee members. However, this
version is not always 100% accurate and is occasionally missing some stuff
or has mangled text. Thus, it is not fit as a standard document: the
authorative version is the PDF one, even though the HTML is often used
when working on this stuff.
The document may be
just an electronic copy of the final standard but I suspect many developers
(myself included) frequently reference it. Proper page numbers, links, and
the ability to move back and forth to previously visited pages like in one's
favorite (HTML) browser would be a welcome relief.

If it so much of a relief, you might want to consider joining the committee
and get the [unofficial] HTML version...
I could contact the ISO
if they're ultimately responsible but I seriously doubt it would go
anywhere. An official source would carry much more weight. Your comments?

ISO is not responsible for releasing documents to the public. This is the
job of the national bodies, eg. ANSI, BSI, or DIN. Since these bodies
receive a reasonable part of their income from selling standard documents
it took already a huge amount of arguing with them to offer any electronic
version at a reasonable price at all (my understanding is that C++ was the
first standard made available in electronic form at low costs thanks to
Tom Plum pressing the issue with ANSI; recently BSI agreed to publishing
the C and C++ standards in form of a book at relatively low costs thanks
to Francis Glassborow pressing the issue with BSI). I doubt that any
standards body would agree to an easily modifyable format, like HTML: the
effects of circulating modified versions (well, of course, both circulating
and modifying version would be illegal) would be pretty bad! Actually,
some people still use old HTML version of CD1 or CD2 which bad enough
already...

Another complication is the production of the HTML in the first place: the
standard document is still maintained in troff. Actually, I think it is
even a modified version of troff which means that even if there is a version
of troff (or groff) which would be capable of creating HTML, it would not
be able to process the sources for the C++ standard (the reasons for this
lie in the history of the standard). There was some discussion of moving to
a more modern source but this isn't an easy task: apart from the effort
needed to convert the sources, there are some neat features of the current
system which are not readily available in alternatives. The HTML used
internally by the committee has some flaws which isn't that harmful because
the people working on the respective section normally know what should be
there.

BTW: there was no standard voted on in 2003. The current C++ standard is
still the one from 1998. The 2003 document is the 1998 standard augmented
with the changes from 2003 Technical Corrigendum. However, the resulting
document is not really binding although implementers are likely to resolve
conflicts and ambiguities in the 1998 standard to follow the Technical
Corrigendum. The next C++ standard will not become finished before 2007.
Actually, I personally doubt that it will become finished before 2009
barely making the C++0X goal...
 
R

Roger Leigh

Another complication is the production of the HTML in the first place: the
standard document is still maintained in troff. Actually, I think it is
even a modified version of troff which means that even if there is a version
of troff (or groff) which would be capable of creating HTML, it would not
be able to process the sources for the C++ standard (the reasons for this
lie in the history of the standard).

Recent versions of groff include a "grohtml" device, which outputs
HTML. Just use "-t html".
 

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