[OT] Indian C programmers and "u"

[Richard Bos]

We [Indians] opt English as second language. Not like westerners whose
mother tongue is English

Excuse me. My mother tongue is not English, yet I have never even
_considered_ using dw33bsp33k. Not being a native Anglophone is not an
excuse for using spelling which is otherwise being used only by
juveniles.
_Especially_ not when you're as generally clueful as Indian programmers
otherwise aim to be.

Richard

 

[Nils Petter Vaskinn]

This is not what is happening in India (and some other Asian countries);
rather, it is a form of speed typing which motivates these
abbreviations.

But this is not a chat room, speed of typing doesn't matter. Clarity does.

It is not a sign Indian programmers are stupid,

I don't think Joona intended to imply that they are, he wondered if there
was any explanation for this common mistake in otherwise correct english.

(then he unfortunately proceeded to make a poor joke)

As another poster explained atleast one indian language is written the way
it sounds so writing "u" instead og "you" is an easy mistake when you're
used to such a language. That's a resonable explanation to me, I know I
make mistakes in my english and that atleast some of them are because of
my native tounge.

But if a person (of any nationality) has it pointed out to him that he
should type full words (instead of chat style abbreviations) in order to
make his text more readable (especially to those that aren't as good at
english), and he then continues to knowingly mistype words then that
particular person is stupid (in my opinion).

and there ought to be
more sensitive ways of objecting to the style, just as some can redirect
posters to, say, without questioning their
sanity.

I wasn't ridiculing people that makes unintentional spelling mistakes, I
was making fun of people that make intentional spelling mistakes in order
to look cool.

 

[Floyd Davidson]

It's fairly narrow, but this is not the point.

I have no doubt that you missed the point...

An entirely moot point, since we're talking about "question" as a NOUN,
not as a verb. I'm sure you can tell the difference, if you engage your
brain...

Engage that brain you tout so often Dan. Nothing restricted the
reference was to a noun. And indeed *that* is a moot point,
given the way the English language works.

It makes no difference whether he meant use as a noun, or not.
"Doubt" and "question" both mean an uncertainty, and that is
true when it is used as a verb or as a noun. The difference is
merely a matter of how skeptical the speaker is about the
validity of an answer. You could also use "problem", which
suggest even less bias about the expected answer.

The connotation of each is different, but that subtlety might
well be lost on anyone who speaks English as a second language.

Look up "doubtful", "questionable", and "problematical" in
a good dictionary. (Yes, I am aware that those are not nouns,
nor are they even verbs, transitive or otherwise.)

Joona was refering to people writing "I have a doubt about <whatever
C feature>", when they clearly mean "I have a question about...".

I have no doubt you did not know two words mean exactly the same
thing, in that context (or this one). And I do hope this helps
to answer your doubt.

 

[Rick]

Does it really matters if someone uses "u" instead of you? C'mon, I don't
like the MTV-chatbox-cyber-crap-talk either, but I can read it so what the
heck. As long as the question or explanation is clear it doesn't matter does
it?

I only had some basic english on school (is english with a small or big 'E'
?) and I'm sure this counts for lot's of users in newsgroups. So be happy we
try to do it in uniform english. The fact that english is the most used
language in the world doesn't mean we all have to speak it perfectly.
Languages and accents are cool, I can talk my own native language in such a
way only my friends understand it and I'm proud of that. It really doesn't
mean I'm stupid, in fact, it's creativity! (at least if you come up with it
yourself instead of copying someone else). But of course, I'm not supposed
to do that on a newsgroup where the common language is normal english. But
why even bother about some "u" talk? Their are worser things on earth, it's
not worth a post.

Though I agree on a newsgroup you'll have to try to make it understandable,
at least read your post for a small spelling check before sending. And I do
agree the way we learn english is a little bit wrong. It's because of that
darn TV, it rapes classical languages with all kind of shit so learning the
correct form is hard. You can't blame the little kids for writing "I luv U 4
effa" and that kind of crap. They grow up with Nelly and Britney Spears
saying that rubbish. Joona, send them a e-mail and tell to stop that


Greetings,
Rick

 

[Dik T. Winter]

> We [Indians] opt English as second language. Not like westerners whose
> mother tongue is English and still people are [ sizeable number ] who
> does not have even communication skills. There is enough room for
> North Europeans too.

The original poster was a North European who does not have English as his
mother tongue...

 

[Dan Pop]

In message <[email protected]>


FWIW, I'm British, and I'd say "I learnt", and "I have learned". I think
"learnt" as the past tense is certainly the dominant form here.

Likewise dreamt, spelt and others.

If English was less perverse, a verb would be either regular or irregular
but not both at the same time ;-)

Dan

 

[Alan Balmer]

IMHO??? Methinks somebody has just discovered either irony or hypocrisy.

HAND.

In this context, "imho" is no more "slangy shorthand" than "mph" or
"kph" when writing about speed limits. It's even possible that in the
far distant future, no-caps, ellipsis-filled, d00dsp33k will become an
accepted norm on newsgroups. I find this highly unlikely, though,
since there's nothing to recommend it other than obfuscation and the
occasional saving of a couple of keystrokes.

 

[Alan Balmer]

Where
would you think this guy would have achance to learn the Queen's
English.

The same place he's attempting to use it, obviously. I can appreciate
your sad story, but my point remains - anyone with the resources to
contribute to this newsgroup has, by definition, the resources to
observe and learn from other posters to the newsgroup.

 

[Alan Balmer]

This is not what is happening in India (and some other Asian countries);
rather, it is a form of speed typing which motivates these abbreviations.

You're joking, of course? Most of the examples I see actually take
longer to type.

 

[Dan Pop]

As another poster explained atleast one indian language is written the way
it sounds so writing "u" instead og "you" is an easy mistake when you're
used to such a language.

If it were, they would be making it in plenty of other words, too.
My mother tongue also uses a phonetical writing, yet I'm never tempted
to write English words in a phonetical manner.

Dan

 

[Dan Pop]

I have no doubt that you missed the point...


Engage that brain you tout so often Dan. Nothing restricted the
reference was to a noun. And indeed *that* is a moot point,
given the way the English language works.

It was the context that restricted it to a noun, as other people and
myself have already explained. This is what rendered your point moot.

You must be context blind to insist on your moot point ad nauseam.

Dan

 

[Dan Pop]

Does it really matters if someone uses "u" instead of you? C'mon, I don't
like the MTV-chatbox-cyber-crap-talk either, but I can read it so what the
heck. As long as the question or explanation is clear it doesn't matter does
it?

But, then, if "u" is acceptable, why not "r", "4", "ur", "l8r", "b4",
"4mer" and so on...

Writing properly is a form of displaying your respect towards your
intended audience. Which is particularly important when asking for
help.

Dan

 

[John L]

You're joking, of course? Most of the examples I see actually take
longer to type.

No, I'm saying there are separate phenomena being confused here,
or perhaps the same phenomenon (annoying abbreviations) with
distinct causes.

John.

 

[Irrwahn Grausewitz]

Kevin Bracey <[email protected]> writes:

If English was less perverse, a verb would be either regular or irregular
but not both at the same time ;-)

One could call it a meta-irregular verb, then. <g,d&r>

 

[Floyd Davidson]

It was the context that restricted it to a noun, as other people and
myself have already explained. This is what rendered your point moot.

You must be context blind to insist on your moot point ad nauseam.

Interesting comment, given that I've demonstrated it in *three*
different contexts (including the one you've chosen to insist it
must be).

Engage that touted brain, Dan. If you have more doubts, I'll
be happy to continuing trying to answer them, but *you* have
to _think_.

 

[Wolfgang Riedel]

I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
that one mistake sticks out. [...]

Crap like that seems to be acceptable in "chat rooms".

Not in the channels I use. People using such lame abbreviations are
generally kicked (or even banned), unless there are extreme mitigating
circumstances.

--
Richard Heathfield : (e-mail address removed)
"Usenet is a strange place." - Dennis M Ritchie, 29 July 1999.
C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
K&R answers, C books, etc: http://users.powernet.co.uk/eton

couldn't you unite those language and spelling threads in something like

[VMOT] little Indian seeks BigEndian

<g>?
Wolfgang

 

[Dan Pop]

Interesting comment, given that I've demonstrated it in *three*
different contexts (including the one you've chosen to insist it
must be).

In the one and only context that is relevant, it's a noun only.
Do you insist that "I have a doubt about malloc" and "I have a question
about malloc" are *perfectly* equivalent and interchangeable statements
in current English? Because this is the actual point of the discussion.

Engage that touted brain, Dan. If you have more doubts, I'll
be happy to continuing trying to answer them, but *you* have
to _think_.

Take your own advice. If you can...

Dan

 

[Alan Balmer]

I can talk my own native language in such a
way only my friends understand it and I'm proud of that.

Fine, but please don't do it here. This isn't a private communication
channel for you and your friends - that's part of the point we're
making here. The clearest communication comes when we use standardized
language in a standardized way, just as the most portable programs are
made with standardized languages in standardized ways. It doesn't mean
you can't use other language where appropriate, just as you can use
extensions to a programming language where appropriate. It does mean
that there's no point to inventing a function named p which does the
same thing as printf, unless you're deliberately writing obfuscated
code.

 

[CBFalconer]

.... snip ...

This is not what is happening in India (and some other Asian countries);
rather, it is a form of speed typing which motivates these abbreviations.
But because the one form looks much like the other, it is also condemned.
Other motivations for similar abominations have given Americans "thru"
and our children "Toys R Us".

You are confusing two tendencies. The "Toys R Us" foolishness is
an advertising gimmick dreamed up by some joker in a gray flannel
suit. "thru" dates from roughly 1900, and was part of a movement
to regularize spelling. It was never really accepted outside the
US, and has largely died out. "tho" is a similar situation. It
may have been a reaction to "ghoti"

 

[CBFalconer]

"every single" is overstatement; may be you meant "most".


When I was learning English (that was before I've seen Computers
and SMS), I'd thought why people unnecessarily use "yo" in "you"
when they just pronounce it as "u". In my native language (Tamil),
we write what we speak/pronounce; we pronounce what we write. It
is to say in Tamil, we don't have any silent words (as in
psychology or as in you).

Here are my reasons:

1. Browsing is too costly in India; many people don't know
typing. And so, they prefer to use "u" instead of long "you".
2. People think, "u" is stylish to use in web.
3. People don't know the difference between NG and chat room.
4. There is no such netiquettes. People may think, if ciao
(Italian) is acceptable in NG, then "u" must also be acceptable.
5. Few people may think why such hypocrisy---they accept dude
speak in chat rooms and IRC, but why not in NG.
....snip ...

Your sig marker is faulty. It should be precisely "-- ".

At last a sane explanation of the tendency, from someone who
presumably knows. Now the problem is to promulgate the realities
among the Indian users of newsgroups.

This is not the only annoying Indian tendency - another is the
proclivity to top-post and fail to snip. One would think that the
(reputed) relatively high cost of connect time there would
naturally curb this. Of course this fault is also highly evident
in other circles.