OT: Nested Table Rant

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Adrienne Boswell, Oct 30, 2003.

  1. <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
    hates them! I hates them!</movie>

    I've inherited a site that uses nested tables (4 deep) for
    presentation. Urgh! I hate debugging these things. I'm getting rid
    of them slowly but surely.

    Just had to get that off my chest.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    http://www.arbpen.com
    Adrienne Boswell, Oct 30, 2003
    #1
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  2. Adrienne Boswell wrote:

    > <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
    > hates them! I hates them!</movie>


    You forgot to put the element name. :)
    Leif K-Brooks, Oct 30, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Adrienne Boswell

    DU Guest

    Adrienne Boswell wrote:

    > <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
    > hates them! I hates them!</movie>
    >
    > I've inherited a site that uses nested tables (4 deep) for
    > presentation. Urgh! I hate debugging these things. I'm getting rid
    > of them slowly but surely.
    >
    > Just had to get that off my chest.
    >


    You're not off topic. You're definitively on the topic of webpage
    creation by amateurs. A lot, maybe as much as 50% of all websites out
    there (3 billions 200 millions webpages were indexed by google.com) are
    based on table designs.

    I also had to debug a site which had over 50 tables all used for
    positioning. Also 4 levels deep of nesting. It took me days, not hours,
    to fix.

    Each time I mentioned in this newsgroup that table design is bad (and
    nested tables is worse, is madness), I made sure and underlined the
    maintainance aspect of such page. Trying to debug and figure out a site
    based on tables is really long, hard, time-demanding.

    Why Tables For Layout is Stupid
    http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/
    October 2003

    Table design (furthermore nested tables based design):
    "
    # This makes the file sizes of your pages unnecessarily large, as users
    must download this presentational data for each page they visit.
    # Bandwidth ain't free.

    # This makes redesigns of existing sites and content extremely labor
    intensive (and expensive).
    # It also makes it extremely hard (and expensive) to maintain visual
    consistency throughout a site.
    # Table-based pages are also much less accessible to users with
    disabilities and viewers using cell phones and PDAs to access the Web."

    http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/06problems.html

    DU
    --
    Javascript and Browser bugs:
    http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/
    - Resources, help and tips for Netscape 7.x users and Composer
    - Interactive demos on Popup windows, music (audio/midi) in Netscape 7.x
    http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/Netscape7/Netscape7Section.html
    DU, Oct 30, 2003
    #3
  4. Adrienne Boswell

    Richard Guest

    Adrienne Boswell wrote:

    > <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
    > hates them! I hates them!</movie>


    > I've inherited a site that uses nested tables (4 deep) for
    > presentation. Urgh! I hate debugging these things. I'm getting rid
    > of them slowly but surely.


    > Just had to get that off my chest.


    <applause>clap!</applause>
    Richard, Oct 30, 2003
    #4
  5. Adrienne Boswell

    gmcclary Guest

    "DU" <> wrote in message
    news:bnq2tv$o8u$...
    > Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    >
    > > <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
    > > hates them! I hates them!</movie>
    > >
    > > I've inherited a site that uses nested tables (4 deep) for
    > > presentation. Urgh! I hate debugging these things. I'm getting rid
    > > of them slowly but surely.
    > >
    > > Just had to get that off my chest.
    > >

    >
    > You're not off topic. You're definitively on the topic of webpage
    > creation by amateurs. A lot, maybe as much as 50% of all websites out
    > there (3 billions 200 millions webpages were indexed by google.com) are
    > based on table designs.
    >
    > I also had to debug a site which had over 50 tables all used for
    > positioning. Also 4 levels deep of nesting. It took me days, not hours,
    > to fix.
    >
    > Each time I mentioned in this newsgroup that table design is bad (and
    > nested tables is worse, is madness), I made sure and underlined the
    > maintainance aspect of such page. Trying to debug and figure out a site
    > based on tables is really long, hard, time-demanding.
    >
    > Why Tables For Layout is Stupid
    > http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/
    > October 2003
    >
    > Table design (furthermore nested tables based design):
    > "
    > # This makes the file sizes of your pages unnecessarily large, as users
    > must download this presentational data for each page they visit.
    > # Bandwidth ain't free.
    >
    > # This makes redesigns of existing sites and content extremely labor
    > intensive (and expensive).
    > # It also makes it extremely hard (and expensive) to maintain visual
    > consistency throughout a site.
    > # Table-based pages are also much less accessible to users with
    > disabilities and viewers using cell phones and PDAs to access the Web."
    >
    > http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/06problems.html
    >
    > DU
    > --
    > Javascript and Browser bugs:
    > http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/
    > - Resources, help and tips for Netscape 7.x users and Composer
    > - Interactive demos on Popup windows, music (audio/midi) in Netscape 7.x
    > http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/Netscape7/Netscape7Section.html
    >


    Tables for layout works!

    The future of the Web is in nested tables! (or nested <div>'s)
    What, only four deep? You got no depth!

    Tell me this, not using tables... (got it, no tables...)
    Show me!
    You positon text left... (empty background right)
    You position text right... (empty area left)
    and you position text center... (empty area left and right)

    Now: then, (as part of the previous <div>) use a few thumbs (gif, png, who
    cares) two columns; and CENTER the caption UNDER them... (Centered! png's or
    gif thumnbs centered on canvas and text centered under each, agreed?)
    THEN, centered under it all, center text, with background left and right...
    show me...

    (BUT! You may not use more div's than tables--(got it, you cannot use more
    than 4 divs) )

    You cannot do it with css...no tables. (HTML 4.1 or XHTML1 and CSS2---to
    display in MSIE6, Opera 7.21, NS6)(all...)

    Hell, you can't even make one text block center (with background left and
    right) using only CSS without using <center> (of one definition or another,
    html 3.2, 4.0, 4.1, xhtml, (loose or otherwise) (and display in msie6, ns7
    and opera7) AND validate it w/ w3c)).

    come back?

    You show me, and I'll kiss your ugly dog on 1st and Main St at high noon,
    and give you an hour to draw a crowd.

    Glenn
    gmcclary, Oct 30, 2003
    #5
  6. Adrienne Boswell

    Adrienne Guest

    Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Leif K-Brooks
    <> writing in news:E90ob.1256$jg7.1138626
    @newshog.newsread.com:

    > Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    >
    >> <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
    >> hates them! I hates them!</movie>

    >
    > You forgot to put the element name. :)
    >


    Whoops!

    <voice movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
    hates them! I hates them!</voice>

    <voice movie="The Two Towers" character="Sméagol">CSS is our friend. We
    likes CSS. Go away Nested Tables - and never come back!</voice>

    --
    Adrienne Boswell
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    http://www.arbpen.com
    Adrienne, Oct 30, 2003
    #6
  7. gmcclary wrote:

    > Now: then, (as part of the previous <div>) use a few thumbs (gif, png, who
    > cares) two columns; and CENTER the caption UNDER them... (Centered! png's or
    > gif thumnbs centered on canvas and text centered under each, agreed?)


    Using CSS 2.1, but only works in Opera 7:
    http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/scratch/css-centre-aligned-thumbs.html

    Using CSS 2, works in IE5+, Mozilla, Netcape and Opera (and doesn't fail
    too miserably in IE4):
    http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/scratch/css-centre-aligned-thumbs-6.html

    Screenshots to prove it works:
    http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/scratch/css-centre-aligned-thumbs-6-ie5-800x600.png
    http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/scratch/css-centre-aligned-thumbs-6-ie6-1024x768.png
    http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/scratch/css-centre-aligned-thumbs-6-moz14-1024x768.png
    http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/scratch/css-centre-aligned-thumbs-6-o7-640x480.png

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?id=132
    Toby A Inkster, Oct 30, 2003
    #7
  8. Adrienne Boswell

    rf Guest

    "gmcclary" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "DU" <> wrote in message
    > news:bnq2tv$o8u$...
    > > Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    > >
    > > > <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
    > > > hates them! I hates them!</movie>
    > > >

    <snip rant>
    > >
    > > You're not off topic. You're definitively on the topic of webpage
    > > creation by amateurs. A lot, maybe as much as 50% of all websites out
    > > there (3 billions 200 millions webpages were indexed by google.com) are
    > > based on table designs.


    <snip gripe>
    >
    > Tables for layout works!


    but is a bastard to maintain

    > The future of the Web is in nested tables! (or nested <div>'s)
    > What, only four deep? You got no depth!


    This particular future ended last century.

    > Tell me this, not using tables... (got it, no tables...)
    > Show me!


    Hmmm. OK.

    > You positon text left... (empty background right)


    Yep.
    http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/test/pos/left.html

    > You position text right... (empty area left)


    Yep. I assume this is a cumulative challenge.
    http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/test/pos/right.html

    > and you position text center... (empty area left and right)


    Getting trickier...
    http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/test/pos/centre.html

    So far I don't think I have used a single <div>.

    > Now: then, (as part of the previous <div>) use a few thumbs (gif, png, who
    > cares) two columns; and CENTER the caption UNDER them... (Centered! png's

    or
    > gif thumnbs centered on canvas and text centered under each, agreed?)
    > THEN, centered under it all, center text, with background left and

    right...
    > show me...


    Ah, finally something worthy of consideration. Took me a good 5 minutes to
    solve this one :)

    http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/test/pos/thumbs.html

    Works with IE6 and Mozilla 1.4. Have not checked any others.

    > (BUT! You may not use more div's than tables--(got it, you cannot use more
    > than 4 divs) )


    <runs and counts &lt;div&gt;'s>

    Yep. Maximum <div> nesting level: 3. I could even cheat and use <span
    style="display: block"> but that would be cheating.

    > You cannot do it with css...no tables. (HTML 4.1 or XHTML1 and CSS2---to
    > display in MSIE6, Opera 7.21, NS6)(all...)


    Er, I just did, except for Opera, which I don't have to hand at the moment
    and NS, which I assume will work as Mozilla does. If it breaks in Opera
    either Opera is broken or we have an excercise for the student :)

    > Hell, you can't even make one text block center (with background left and
    > right) using only CSS without using <center> (of one definition or

    another,
    > html 3.2, 4.0, 4.1, xhtml, (loose or otherwise) (and display in msie6, ns7
    > and opera7) AND validate it w/ w3c)).


    What is wrong with, for example:

    ..someclass {width: 12em; margin: auto;} ?

    <p class="someclass">some centred text</p>

    I really think you should go over to http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/ , read
    it all and then play with it in each of the browsers you are interested in.

    > come back?


    Here I am. I never went away.

    > You show me, and I'll kiss your ugly dog on 1st and Main St at high noon,
    > and give you an hour to draw a crowd.


    Looks like I'll have to buy a dog. Er, where exactly are 1st and Main
    streets? There not on my map of Sydney :)

    Cheers
    Richard.
    rf, Oct 30, 2003
    #8
  9. Adrienne Boswell

    Eric Bohlman Guest

    "rf" <> wrote in
    news:7u3ob.170906$:

    >> Now: then, (as part of the previous <div>) use a few thumbs (gif,
    >> png, who cares) two columns; and CENTER the caption UNDER them...
    >> (Centered! png's

    > or
    >> gif thumnbs centered on canvas and text centered under each, agreed?)
    >> THEN, centered under it all, center text, with background left and

    > right...
    >> show me...

    >
    > Ah, finally something worthy of consideration. Took me a good 5
    > minutes to solve this one :)
    >
    > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/test/pos/thumbs.html


    [snip]

    > Er, I just did, except for Opera, which I don't have to hand at the
    > moment and NS, which I assume will work as Mozilla does. If it breaks
    > in Opera either Opera is broken or we have an excercise for the
    > student :)


    Desired effect achieved in Opera 7.20.
    Eric Bohlman, Oct 30, 2003
    #9
  10. In article <>, arbpen2003
    @sbcglobal.net says...
    > <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
    > hates them! I hates them!</movie>
    >
    > I've inherited a site that uses nested tables (4 deep) for
    > presentation. Urgh! I hate debugging these things. I'm getting rid
    > of them slowly but surely.
    >
    > Just had to get that off my chest.


    Be thankful you don't have to de-frame this:
    http://tinyurl.com/syyb

    --
    Hywel I do not eat quiche
    http://hyweljenkins.co.uk/
    http://hyweljenkins.co.uk/mfaq.php
    Hywel Jenkins, Oct 30, 2003
    #10
  11. Adrienne Boswell

    rf Guest

    "Adrienne" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns9423F010C9816arbpenyahoocom@207.115.63.158...
    > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Leif K-Brooks
    > <> writing in news:E90ob.1256$jg7.1138626
    > @newshog.newsread.com:
    >
    > > Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    > >
    > >> <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
    > >> hates them! I hates them!</movie>

    > >
    > > You forgot to put the element name. :)
    > >

    >
    > Whoops!
    >
    > <voice movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
    > hates them! I hates them!</voice>


    The media people usually use the <voiceover> element.

    Cheers
    Richard.
    rf, Oct 30, 2003
    #11
  12. Toby A Inkster, Oct 30, 2003
    #12
  13. Adrienne Boswell

    rf Guest

    "Hywel Jenkins" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <>, arbpen2003
    > @sbcglobal.net says...
    > > <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
    > > hates them! I hates them!</movie>
    > >
    > > I've inherited a site that uses nested tables (4 deep) for
    > > presentation. Urgh! I hate debugging these things. I'm getting rid
    > > of them slowly but surely.
    > >
    > > Just had to get that off my chest.

    >
    > Be thankful you don't have to de-frame this:
    > http://tinyurl.com/syyb


    Sometimes it's wiser to recommend that the client use that other company
    over there ---->

    Cheers
    Richard.
    rf, Oct 30, 2003
    #13
  14. Adrienne Boswell

    rf Guest

    "Toby A Inkster" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > Toby A Inkster wrote:
    >
    > >

    http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/scratch/css-centre-aligned-thumbs-6.html
    >
    > And my version


    <quote>
    <div style="width:100%;text-align:center;"> <!-- special wrapper for IE -->
    <div class="setofthumbs">
    <div class="thumb"><a href="image.jpeg"><img ...
    </quote>

    <counts divs> Three divs, nesting level 3, two nested divs.

    > kicks rf's ass.


    <quote>
    <div class="centre">
    <div class="thumbrow">
    <div class="leftcol"><img src="roo_small.jpg" ...</quote>

    <counts divs> Three divs, nesting level 3, two nested divs.

    I consider my arse unkicked :)

    Different approach though. Does seem to be a bit more robust especially with
    a narrow canvas.

    Cheers
    Richard.
    rf, Oct 30, 2003
    #14
  15. Adrienne Boswell

    informant Guest

    Re: OT: Nested BULLIS Rant

    "Richard" <anom@anom> wrote in message news:...
    > Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    >
    > > <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
    > > hates them! I hates them!</movie>

    >
    > > I've inherited a site that uses nested tables (4 deep) for
    > > presentation. Urgh! I hate debugging these things. I'm getting rid
    > > of them slowly but surely.

    >
    > > Just had to get that off my chest.

    >
    > <applause>clap!</applause>


    Oh, that's clever, Bullis.

    --
    Comments about Bullis:
    As unwelcome as you have always been in here....You keep going
    '.....offering idiotic comment after idiotic comment.

    I'm gonna echo these sentiments. We know Bullis is a sick ****.

    This appears to be a field in which you are not qualified to render an
    opinion.

    ....every time I resolve to be more civil on usenet, I see another post from
    "richard" giving someone completely off-the-wall advice with dangerous
    consequences. So instead of saying something uncivil like "richard, you
    clueless, pathetic moron, SHUT THE **** UP!!!" I;ll just bite my tongue and
    say nothing.

    Please stop posting legal advice, as you are clearly not qualified and most
    of your advice is worse than useless.

    Once again, following Richard's advice will end up with you being arrested.

    "Richard" <> wrote: "I may have fantasies involving rape
    of a child, but you're no mindreader and as long as the thoughts remain a
    fantasy, there is no possible way to convict".


    Path:
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    y.com!enews1
    From: "Richard" <anom@anom>
    Newsgroups: alt.html
    Subject: Re: OT: Nested Table Rant
    Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:47:11 -0600
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    informant, Oct 30, 2003
    #15
  16. Adrienne Boswell

    Kris Guest

    In article <>,
    "gmcclary" <> wrote:

    > Now: then, (as part of the previous <div>) use a few thumbs (gif, png, who
    > cares) two columns; and CENTER the caption UNDER them... (Centered! png's or
    > gif thumnbs centered on canvas and text centered under each, agreed?)
    > THEN, centered under it all, center text, with background left and right...
    > show me...
    >
    > (BUT! You may not use more div's than tables--(got it, you cannot use more
    > than 4 divs) )
    >
    > You cannot do it with css...no tables. (HTML 4.1 or XHTML1 and CSS2---to
    > display in MSIE6, Opera 7.21, NS6)(all...)


    If you care to express yourself more clearly, then i will show you how
    and why it is possible.

    --
    Kris
    erlands (nl)
    Kris, Oct 30, 2003
    #16
  17. rf wrote:

    > <quote>
    > <div style="width:100%;text-align:center;"> <!-- special wrapper for IE -->
    > <div class="setofthumbs">
    > <div class="thumb"><a href="image.jpeg"><img ...
    > </quote>
    >
    > <counts divs> Three divs, nesting level 3, two nested divs.


    Damn you! Forgot about that IE wrapper <div>.

    /me goes off to sulk...

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?id=132
    Toby A Inkster, Oct 30, 2003
    #17
  18. Adrienne Boswell

    DU Guest

    rf wrote:
    > "gmcclary" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >


    [snipped]

    >
    >>Hell, you can't even make one text block center (with background left and
    >>right) using only CSS without using <center> (of one definition or

    >
    > another,
    >
    >>html 3.2, 4.0, 4.1, xhtml, (loose or otherwise) (and display in msie6, ns7
    >>and opera7) AND validate it w/ w3c)).

    >
    >
    > What is wrong with, for example:
    >
    > .someclass {width: 12em; margin: auto;} ?
    >
    > <p class="someclass">some centred text</p>
    >
    > I really think you should go over to http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/ , read
    > it all and then play with it in each of the browsers you are interested in.
    >
    >


    Hmm.. I catch you here. This was even mentionned in CSS1.

    W3C CSS1
    4 Formatting model
    4.1.2 Horizontal formatting
    "(...) if both 'margin-left' and 'margin-right' are 'auto', they will be
    set to equal values. This will center the element inside its parent."
    http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1#horizontal-formatting

    W3C CSS2
    10 Visual formatting model details
    10.3.3 Block-level, non-replaced elements in normal flow
    "If both 'margin-left' and 'margin-right' are 'auto', their computed
    values are equal."
    http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visudet.html#q6

    But what needs to be said here is that margin:auto will NOT be honored
    in MSIE 5.x for windows and will NOT be honored in MSIE 6 in backward
    compatible mode. You need MSIE 6 to be in standards compatible rendering
    mode. So, here you've got an extra reason why people should validate
    their pages and include a doctype declaration (preferably a strict DTD).

    But I entirely agree with your whole post. Table-based designs are
    obsolete and can only hurt in many ways the web designers themselves.

    DU
    --
    Javascript and Browser bugs:
    http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/
    - Resources, help and tips for Netscape 7.x users and Composer
    - Interactive demos on Popup windows, music (audio/midi) in Netscape 7.x
    http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/Netscape7/Netscape7Section.html
    DU, Oct 30, 2003
    #18
  19. Adrienne Boswell

    Kevin Scholl Guest

    gmcclary wrote:

    >>><movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
    >>>hates them! I hates them!</movie>
    >>>
    >>>I've inherited a site that uses nested tables (4 deep) for
    >>>presentation. Urgh! I hate debugging these things. I'm getting rid
    >>>of them slowly but surely.
    >>>
    >>>Just had to get that off my chest.
    >>>

    >>
    >>You're not off topic. You're definitively on the topic of webpage
    >>creation by amateurs. A lot, maybe as much as 50% of all websites out
    >>there (3 billions 200 millions webpages were indexed by google.com) are
    >>based on table designs.
    >>
    >>I also had to debug a site which had over 50 tables all used for
    >>positioning. Also 4 levels deep of nesting. It took me days, not hours,
    >>to fix.
    >>
    >>Each time I mentioned in this newsgroup that table design is bad (and
    >>nested tables is worse, is madness), I made sure and underlined the
    >>maintainance aspect of such page. Trying to debug and figure out a site
    >>based on tables is really long, hard, time-demanding.
    >>
    >>Why Tables For Layout is Stupid
    >>http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/
    >>October 2003
    >>
    >>Table design (furthermore nested tables based design):
    >>"
    >># This makes the file sizes of your pages unnecessarily large, as users
    >>must download this presentational data for each page they visit.
    >># Bandwidth ain't free.
    >>
    >># This makes redesigns of existing sites and content extremely labor
    >>intensive (and expensive).
    >># It also makes it extremely hard (and expensive) to maintain visual
    >>consistency throughout a site.
    >># Table-based pages are also much less accessible to users with
    >>disabilities and viewers using cell phones and PDAs to access the Web."
    >>
    >>http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/06problems.html
    >>

    >
    >
    > Tables for layout works!


    Yes, it does. And table-base layouts are likely not going away anytime
    soon. That said...

    > The future of the Web is in nested tables! (or nested <div>'s)
    > What, only four deep? You got no depth!


    Nonsense.

    > Tell me this, not using tables... (got it, no tables...)
    > Show me!
    > You positon text left... (empty background right)
    > You position text right... (empty area left)
    > and you position text center... (empty area left and right)
    >
    > Now: then, (as part of the previous <div>) use a few thumbs (gif, png, who
    > cares) two columns; and CENTER the caption UNDER them... (Centered! png's or
    > gif thumnbs centered on canvas and text centered under each, agreed?)
    > THEN, centered under it all, center text, with background left and right...
    > show me...
    >
    > (BUT! You may not use more div's than tables--(got it, you cannot use more
    > than 4 divs) )
    >
    > You cannot do it with css...no tables. (HTML 4.1 or XHTML1 and CSS2---to
    > display in MSIE6, Opera 7.21, NS6)(all...)


    Been shown otherwise.

    > Hell, you can't even make one text block center (with background left and
    > right) using only CSS without using <center> (of one definition or another,
    > html 3.2, 4.0, 4.1, xhtml, (loose or otherwise) (and display in msie6, ns7
    > and opera7) AND validate it w/ w3c)).
    >
    > come back?
    >
    > You show me, and I'll kiss your ugly dog on 1st and Main St at high noon,
    > and give you an hour to draw a crowd.


    Oh, how I wish I could show you some of the layouts I've been developing
    at work. You'd be puckering up to that ugly dog many times over. And to
    drive home the point, I did the layouts first with table structures,
    then with CSS-P -- the latter came in an average of 40% lighter in terms
    of necessary code.

    --

    *** Remove the DELETE from my address to reply ***

    ======================================================
    Kevin Scholl

    ------------------------------------------------------
    Information Architecture, Web Design and Development
    ------------------------------------------------------
    We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of
    the dreams...
    ======================================================
    Kevin Scholl, Oct 31, 2003
    #19
  20. DU <> writes:

    > [...] You need MSIE 6 to be in standards compatible
    > rendering mode. So, here you've got an extra reason why people should
    > validate their pages and include a doctype declaration


    As you wish.

    <!DOCTYPE html SYSTEM>
    <title/foo/<h1/bar/

    validates just fine over here; if it doesn't at your end, fix your
    catalog. Doctype Sw^H^HBitching, on the other hand, is a good reason
    *not* to include a declaration in productive document instances. Double
    your efforts for no benefit at all. Barf, barf.

    > (preferably a
    > strict DTD).


    Not again; please read not the FAQ.

    | Q. What's a DTD?
    |
    | A. DTD is an acronym for Document Type Definition, which consists
    ^^^^^^^\
    (Editor's Note: ARRGH!)
    | of a formal part (specified in SGML) and an informal part (specified
    | in natural language).
    |
    | Many people forget about the informal part and use "DTD" to refer
    | only to the formal part (i.e., the stuff that usually goes in a
    | file named "something.dtd"). This is incorrect: the proper term
    | for this object is "the entity containing the external subset of
    | the formal part of the document type definition".
    |
    | (SGML has a tradition of using the longest possible phrases
    | to describe the most frequently talked-about concepts; see also
    | "declared-content-or-content-model".)
    |
    | The term "DTD" is also often confused with the document
    | type declaration, mostly because they have the same initials.
    |
    <http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt>

    For the sake of additional confusion, 'dtd' is the *public text class*
    for a *document type declaration _subset_*, as in

    <!DOCTYPE eric PUBLIC "-//EBB//DTD Eric Conspiracy//EN">
    ^^^
    which would be exactly equivalent to

    <!DOCTYPE eric SYSTEM "http://sandbox.bednarz.nl/sgml/dtd/eric-conspiracy.dtd">

    if it were mapped to that entity. No semantics or rocket science
    involved (neither are any clues involved in self-replicating glossy
    twaddles about so-called web standards in your weblog next door).


    --
    | ) Eric Bednarz
    -(
    | ) http://bednarz.nl/
    Eric B. Bednarz, Oct 31, 2003
    #20
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