OT Opera 7.54 Buggy

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Davmagic .Com, Oct 26, 2004.

  1. I just downloaded the latest version of Opera (7.54) and it (still) has
    a bug reading HTML...

    This page of mine for example: http://davmagic.com/PAGES22.html which
    has 2 "green link tables" one near the top and one near the bottom of
    the content area.... which _should_ be centered (as all the other
    browsers render it (correctly) Mozilla, Firefox, NN and IE).... where as
    Opera LEFT ALIGNS the two tables (in error)....

    Check it out, please and advise....

    Web Design, Magic, Painting, Junking, More
    http://www.davmagic.com/
    Paint A House
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    NOTE: This emailbox is CLOSED do NOT reply!!!
     
    Davmagic .Com, Oct 26, 2004
    #1
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  2. Davmagic .Com

    wacko Guest

    I downloaded Opera after it came highly recommended to me. God knows why
    they rate it. I think it's rubbish. Doesn't load websites properly and on
    some pages the text is really small. I've decided to stick with IE, it shows
    pages the way they should be shown.


    "Davmagic .Com" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I just downloaded the latest version of Opera (7.54) and it (still) has a

    bug reading HTML...
    >
     
    wacko, Oct 26, 2004
    #2
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  3. Davmagic .Com

    Neal Guest

    On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:41:51 +0100, wacko <> wrote:

    > I downloaded Opera after it came highly recommended to me. God knows why
    > they rate it. I think it's rubbish. Doesn't load websites properly and on
    > some pages the text is really small. I've decided to stick with IE, it
    > shows
    > pages the way they should be shown.


    I disagree. I use Opera as my preferred browser and newsreader, and I
    couldn't be happier.

    If the font-size is small, perhaps it's a flaw in the site design.
    Normally I have no issues. Post a URL of a site you have trouble with in
    Opera but not in IE.

    I'm frankly not surprised you find IE renders sites as you think they
    should, as so many sites are written expressly for IE as if it were the
    only browser in existence. I take great pains to design for all browsers I
    can get my hands on. Wish more authors - especially the ones getting paid
    for it - would have the same work ethic.
     
    Neal, Oct 26, 2004
    #3
  4. Davmagic .Com wrote;
    > I just downloaded the latest version of Opera (7.54) and it (still) has
    > a bug reading HTML...


    Well, it doesn't have bug. Table should not be centered when wrappad in
    <center> as it should not center block boxes.

    > This page of mine for example: http://davmagic.com/PAGES22.html which
    > has 2 "green link tables" one near the top and one near the bottom of
    > the content area.... which _should_ be centered (as all the other
    > browsers render it (correctly) Mozilla, Firefox, NN and IE).... where as
    > Opera LEFT ALIGNS the two tables (in error)....


    Yes, There is bug in Mozilla, FF, NN ans IE that they treat table as if
    it was inline table in some contexts.

    > Check it out, please and advise....


    You don't need nested table to do box with black border and green
    background. Your code is ugly and wasteful. You should start learning
    HTML from scratch, as you haven't got basics.






    --
    Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
     
    Lauri Raittila, Oct 26, 2004
    #4
  5. Davmagic .Com

    Kat Guest

    For a start there's Opera's own homepage http://www.opera.com/ , There's
    this forum http://sarahrulez.proboards19.com/index.cgi and this site
    http://www.elizedutoit.com/ Some sites are ok but as it's a real hit and
    miss situation I tend to stick with IE as I know the sites will show fine. I
    think most people do tend to have IE though so I guess that's why most sites
    are designed with IE in mind.


    "Neal" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:...
    > Post a URL of a site you have trouble with in
    > Opera but not in IE.
     
    Kat, Oct 26, 2004
    #5
  6. wacko wrote;
    > I downloaded Opera after it came highly recommended to me. God knows why
    > they rate it.


    It is best browser on earth. Just tested FF, and I'm even more sure now.
    Ie is ont browser, it is security risk. (it has had more security related
    bugs than it has browsing related features)

    > I think it's rubbish.


    I think you don't know what you are talking about.

    > Doesn't load websites properly


    Like which?. Opera usually shows websites as they should be shown, which
    surely sometimes results differently than on buggier browsers.

    > and on some pages the text is really small.


    That is propably becasue you haven't understood that you can change font
    size, and minimum font size. alt + p to preferences, fonts

    > I've decided to stick with IE, it shows
    > pages the way they should be shown.


    No, it shows them incorrectly. Mostly, that is. Problem is that there is
    so many stupid "webmasters" there that make websites whiout clue, so it
    is entirely possible, that their site only works on the browser they have
    tested. And since many of those clueless people use IE, sites don't work
    on other browsers, as they don't emulate all bugs in IE. The reason you
    don't often see problems with IE is that most people that have clue
    enaugh to use other browser than IE, usually also have clue to test with
    IE too, and make compromises so that thissecurity risk would show their
    site better.


    --
    Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
     
    Lauri Raittila, Oct 26, 2004
    #6
  7. Lauri Raittila wrote;
    > Davmagic .Com wrote;


    > Yes, There is bug in Mozilla, FF, NN ans IE that they treat table as if
    > it was inline table in some contexts.


    As OP most likely can't think himself, to "fix" this he can use
    display:inline-table

    --
    Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
     
    Lauri Raittila, Oct 26, 2004
    #7
  8. Davmagic .Com

    Mark Parnell Guest

    On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:25:05 -0400, "Davmagic .Com" <>
    declared in alt.html:

    > I just downloaded the latest version of Opera (7.54) and it (still) has
    > a bug reading HTML...


    Have you notified them of it? How do you expect them to fix it if they
    don't know about it?

    > This page of mine for example: http://davmagic.com/PAGES22.html which
    > has 2 "green link tables" one near the top and one near the bottom of
    > the content area.... which _should_ be centered (as all the other
    > browsers render it (correctly) Mozilla, Firefox, NN and IE).... where as
    > Opera LEFT ALIGNS the two tables (in error)....


    The code on that page is a mess anyway. I don't know how you expect it
    to display the way you want in any browser.

    AFAICT it's something to do with the nesting of the tables - that table
    is nested at least 3 levels deep, so working out exactly what is causing
    it is virtually impossible.

    Is it _really_ that important? No offence, but your page looks like a
    Geocities site from 10 years ago anyway - does it matter if something is
    left aligned instead of centred?

    FWIW, I think you're right - the table should be centred - but as I
    said, the code is such a mess that getting to the root cause of it would
    be too hard. If you can reproduce it on a simplified page showing
    exactly what causes it then do so, and let them know.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    "Never drink rum&coke whilst reading usenet" - rf 2004
     
    Mark Parnell, Oct 26, 2004
    #8
  9. Davmagic .Com

    Neal Guest

    On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 02:06:29 +0100, Kat <> wrote:

    > For a start there's Opera's own homepage http://www.opera.com/


    Sorry, I don't see the issue. The rendering differs, sure, but I don't
    know why one is better than the other.

    > There's
    > this forum http://sarahrulez.proboards19.com/index.cgi


    Both Opera and IE render this as flyshit. I see no substantial differences.

    > and this site
    > http://www.elizedutoit.com/


    Again, I don't immediately see any rendering issues.

    > Some sites are ok but as it's a real hit and
    > miss situation I tend to stick with IE as I know the sites will show
    > fine.


    One issue I do have is mail.yahoo.com when you're logged in. Some of the
    positioning is poor. I switch to User Mode to access some of the
    off-screen links.

    > I
    > think most people do tend to have IE though so I guess that's why most
    > sites
    > are designed with IE in mind.


    Very true, but still not how it SHOULD be. How it is, though.
     
    Neal, Oct 26, 2004
    #9
  10. Davmagic .Com

    Mark Parnell Guest

    On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 02:06:29 +0100, Kat <> declared in
    alt.html:

    > For a start there's Opera's own homepage http://www.opera.com/ , There's


    You're kidding, right? That site looks fine in Opera, but looks quite
    bad in IE. <aside>Wonder whether that's by design...</aside>

    Not saying that's a good thing, but you were supposedly giving examples
    of sites that work in IE and not Opera, not the other way around.

    > this forum http://sarahrulez.proboards19.com/index.cgi and this site
    > http://www.elizedutoit.com/


    Both of those look pretty much identical in Opera to IE AFAICT.

    > Some sites are ok but as it's a real hit and
    > miss situation I tend to stick with IE as I know the sites will show fine.


    I don't use IE because other browsers have a lot of features it doesn't,
    and it isn't as secure. Plus it isn't even an option on my computer at
    home. There are very few sites I can't use properly with other browsers.
    Some don't look quite the way the author intended, but that's the
    author's fault.

    > I
    > think most people do tend to have IE though so I guess that's why most sites
    > are designed with IE in mind.


    When they should be designed to work in all browsers, not just IE. :-(

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    "Never drink rum&coke whilst reading usenet" - rf 2004
     
    Mark Parnell, Oct 26, 2004
    #10
  11. Davmagic .Com

    Neal Guest

    On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:17:10 +1000, Mark Parnell
    <> wrote:

    > Is it _really_ that important? No offence, but your page looks like a
    > Geocities site from 10 years ago anyway - does it matter if something is
    > left aligned instead of centred?


    Mark makes a great point here. We have to differentiate between rendering
    issues which are inconvenient, and rendering issues which ruin the page.
    In my experience, with no data to back this up, I feel IE has more
    critical issues than any browser. It just so happens that IE luckily has
    the market share, so the problems are less likely to turn up in common
    usage.

    And if you're nesting tables, you are asking for it. I looked at that
    page, Dave, and I see a page which cold so easily be done in CSS. There's
    no excuse for using tables except some odd allegiance to an antiquitated
    design technique.
     
    Neal, Oct 26, 2004
    #11
  12. Lauri Raittila wrote;
    > Lauri Raittila wrote;
    > > Davmagic .Com wrote;

    >
    > > Yes, There is bug in Mozilla, FF, NN ans IE that they treat table as if
    > > it was inline table in some contexts.

    >
    > As OP most likely can't think himself, to "fix" this he can use
    > display:inline-table


    Or using margin:auto , to create illusion that other browsers don't have
    bug...

    --
    Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
     
    Lauri Raittila, Oct 26, 2004
    #12
  13. Mark Parnell wrote;
    > On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:25:05 -0400, "Davmagic .Com" <>
    > declared in alt.html:
    >
    > > I just downloaded the latest version of Opera (7.54) and it (still) has
    > > a bug reading HTML...

    >
    > Have you notified them of it? How do you expect them to fix it if they
    > don't know about it?


    Well, it is even harder to fix as it is not bug. It has been reported to
    opera though, but I hope they never "fix" it.

    > > This page of mine for example: http://davmagic.com/PAGES22.html


    > The code on that page is a mess anyway. I don't know how you expect it
    > to display the way you want in any browser.


    I knew what the problem likely was before looking code, so I was able to
    find it there ;-)

    > Is it _really_ that important? No offence, but your page looks like a
    > Geocities site from 10 years ago anyway - does it matter if something is
    > left aligned instead of centred?


    No, but he obviosly don't care. This is not first time he shows his
    horrible code here.


    --
    Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
     
    Lauri Raittila, Oct 26, 2004
    #13
  14. Davmagic .Com

    Mark Parnell Guest

    On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 04:40:18 +0300, Lauri Raittila
    <> declared in alt.html:

    > Well, it is even harder to fix as it is not bug. It has been reported to
    > opera though, but I hope they never "fix" it.


    I had a look at the specs, and it seems pretty unclear to me. The
    <center> element is supposed to behave exactly the same as <div
    align="center">. Because the align attribute is deprecated, there is
    nothing in the specs to say what effect this should have on block-level
    elements.

    Incidentally, if you just have something like:

    <center>
    <table><tr><td>blah</td><td>blah</td></tr></table>
    </center>

    Opera does centre it. It seems it's only when the tables are nested like
    in Dave's case that it doesn't.

    As I said in my previous post, I don't really see why it's a problem
    anyway.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    "Never drink rum&coke whilst reading usenet" - rf 2004
     
    Mark Parnell, Oct 26, 2004
    #14
  15. Mark Parnell wrote;
    > On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 04:40:18 +0300, Lauri Raittila
    > <> declared in alt.html:
    >
    > > Well, it is even harder to fix as it is not bug. It has been reported to
    > > opera though, but I hope they never "fix" it.

    >
    > I had a look at the specs, and it seems pretty unclear to me. The
    > <center> element is supposed to behave exactly the same as <div
    > align="center">.

    http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#edef-CENTER
    | The #edef-CENTERCENTER element is exactly equivalent to specifying the
    | DIV element with the align attribute set to "center"

    http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#adef-align
    | align = - -
    | center: text lines are centered.

    It does not say anything about centering block elements, so they aren't
    centered.

    > Because the align attribute is deprecated, there is
    > nothing in the specs to say what effect this should have on block-level
    > elements.


    Deprecated stuff is still defined in spec.

    > Incidentally, if you just have something like:
    >
    > <center>
    > <table><tr><td>blah</td><td>blah</td></tr></table>
    > </center>
    >
    > Opera does centre it. It seems it's only when the tables are nested like
    > in Dave's case that it doesn't.


    Most likely, they have added some "fix", since I last tested...

    > As I said in my previous post, I don't really see why it's a problem
    > anyway.


    Well, it surely isn't, especially when compared to other problems on that
    site...

    --
    Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
     
    Lauri Raittila, Oct 26, 2004
    #15
  16. Davmagic .Com

    Mark Parnell Guest

    On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:11:21 +0300, Lauri Raittila
    <> declared in alt.html:

    > Mark Parnell wrote;
    >>
    >> I had a look at the specs, and it seems pretty unclear to me. The
    >> <center> element is supposed to behave exactly the same as <div
    >> align="center">.

    > http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#edef-CENTER
    >| The #edef-CENTERCENTER element is exactly equivalent to specifying the
    >| DIV element with the align attribute set to "center"


    That's the one.

    > http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#adef-align
    >| align = - -
    >| center: text lines are centered.
    >
    > It does not say anything about centering block elements, so they aren't
    > centered.


    From that last link:

    <quote>
    It is possible to align block elements (tables, images, objects,
    paragraphs, etc.) on the canvas with the align attribute. Although this
    attribute may be set for many HTML elements, its range of possible
    values sometimes differs from element to element. Here we only discuss
    the meaning of the align attribute for text.
    </quote>

    According to that, block level elements _can_ be affected by the align
    attribute, but they don't go into any detail in the specs as to the
    specifics.

    Looking at the DTD, though reveals this:

    <quote>
    <!ATTLIST DIV
    ....
    %align; -- align, text alignment --
    </quote>

    "text alignment" - this implies that it only applies to text, but it is
    only a comment. I still think it is rather ambiguous, though I now don't
    think Opera's behaviour is wrong, just that the behaviour is undefined,
    and they happened to make a different decision to the other browser
    vendors.

    > Most likely, they have added some "fix", since I last tested...


    Possibly. I'm still running 7.23, though. From the OP, I assume it is
    the same in 7.54.

    > Well, it surely isn't, especially when compared to other problems on that
    > site...


    We certainly agree there. :)

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    "Never drink rum&coke whilst reading usenet" - rf 2004
     
    Mark Parnell, Oct 26, 2004
    #16
  17. Davmagic .Com

    brucie Guest

    In alt.html Davmagic .Com said:

    > I just downloaded the latest version of Opera (7.54) and it (still) has
    > a bug reading HTML...


    i know its more convenient to blame the browser but the problem is your
    lack of skill and knowledge. you're just making yourself look like an
    idiot.

    --


    v o i c e s
     
    brucie, Oct 26, 2004
    #17
  18. Mark Parnell wrote;
    > On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:11:21 +0300, Lauri Raittila
    > <> declared in alt.html:
    >
    > > Mark Parnell wrote;
    > >>
    > >> I had a look at the specs, and it seems pretty unclear to me. The
    > >> <center> element is supposed to behave exactly the same as <div
    > >> align="center">.

    > > http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#edef-CENTER
    > >| The #edef-CENTERCENTER element is exactly equivalent to specifying the
    > >| DIV element with the align attribute set to "center"

    >
    > That's the one.
    >
    > > http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#adef-align
    > >| align = - -
    > >| center: text lines are centered.
    > >
    > > It does not say anything about centering block elements, so they aren't
    > > centered.

    >
    > From that last link:
    >
    > <quote>
    > It is possible to align block elements (tables, images, objects,
    > paragraphs, etc.) on the canvas with the align attribute.


    I wonder what they mean with paragraphs there, but it is irrelevant, as
    paragraph can't contain table.

    > Although this
    > attribute may be set for many HTML elements, its range of possible
    > values sometimes differs from element to element. Here we only discuss
    > the meaning of the align attribute for text.
    > </quote>


    > According to that, block level elements _can_ be affected by the align
    > attribute, but they don't go into any detail in the specs as to the
    > specifics.


    Yes, the exact situations are defined elsewhere in the spec, and they
    don't apply situations where block level element is contained by element
    with align attribute, but the situation where align attribute is used
    directly on block element, which was not happening in this case.

    http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#h-15.1.3
    This defines its meaning for tables
    As you can see, table definition doesn't link to generic align attribute
    explanation, like DIV definition
    http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#adef-align-TABLE#adef-
    align-TABLE

    I agree that align is not very well defined:
    http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#h-11.3.2.1
    Table cell text alignment is inherit from table. It is not possible to
    change table text-alignment though, they even refer the place in spec
    that says so.

    > "text alignment" - this implies that it only applies to text, but it is
    > only a comment. I still think it is rather ambiguous,


    Seems that biggest part problem is in HTML spec, and that is already
    solved by deprecating all involved stuff. So there was no point in this
    discussion.

    > > Most likely, they have added some "fix", since I last tested...


    Likely before 7.2

    > Possibly. I'm still running 7.23, though. From the OP, I assume it is
    > the same in 7.54.


    --
    Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
     
    Lauri Raittila, Oct 26, 2004
    #18
  19. Davmagic .Com

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Davmagic .Com wrote:

    > http://davmagic.com/PAGES22.html which has 2 "green link tables" one
    > near the top and one near the bottom of the content area.... which
    > _should_ be centered (as all the other browsers render it (correctly)
    > Mozilla, Firefox, NN and IE).... where as Opera LEFT ALIGNS the two
    > tables (in error)....


    Opera gets it right. (So do the others!)

    The reason in this case is your <center> element. The XHTML spec (you are
    using XHTML 1.0 Transitional) defers to HTML for the definition of <center>.

    The HTML 4.01 spec says <center> is exactly equivalent to <div
    align="center"> (the end of part 15.1.2).

    The HTML spec explains (beginning of 15.1.2) how align="center" effects
    text:
    | center: text lines are centered.

    However, the HTML spec declines to mention what should happen to block
    elements within an aligned area. So quite simply any behaviour is correct!

    Opera's behaviour is more consistant with the CSS "text-align:center" than
    the others.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Oct 26, 2004
    #19
  20. Davmagic .Com

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Kat wrote:

    > I think most people do tend to have IE though so I guess that's why
    > most sites are designed with IE in mind.


    Most people are female, so I will design all my products so that it's
    impossible for men to use them.

    Discuss.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Oct 26, 2004
    #20
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