OT - to non USA folks

J

Jeff Thies

kchayka said:
Are you implying all Iraqi's are insurgents? Don't be stupid. Iraqi's
are a big part of the armed forces over there, fighting alongside the
coalition.

You've been listening to the president too much. There are brave Iraqis
but the Iraqi armed force is a fraction of what it is supposed to be and
has been disolved and rebuilt often. This is largely because these were
poorly trained just to rush through numbers. In some case US soldiers
have noticed marked improvements in "insurgent" tactics after training
the Iraqi military. This is well documented.

Jeff
 
T

Toby Inkster

Wayfarer said:
"...the country that I want to live in has a government that honors the
vital fabric of land and life that supports us; it upholds the rights
and dignity of every being, even those without voice; it protects the
rights of its citizens to say what they believe. It is a place where
people are educated, where they participate in public life, and where
self-governance is welcome and necessary. The events of the past two
years have me wondering, where is that place?" - Janisse Ray (a U.S.
citizen)

Sounds like Sweden to me.
 
T

Toby Inkster

Neal said:
Frankly, the increased partisanship, the lack of responsibility with the
budget, the constant pandering to huge drug corporations while millions go
without health care - if almost half the nation didn't vote for him,
there's a good reason.

Actually about 65% of registered voters didn't vote for him. About 35% of
registered voters voted for other candidates and about 30% didn't vote at
all.
 
J

Jim Higson

kchayka said:
Are you implying all Iraqi's are insurgents? Don't be stupid. Iraqi's
are a big part of the armed forces over there, fighting alongside the
coalition.

Ok, when you said "armed forces personnel - US, Iraqi or otherwise" I
thought that must include, y'know the Iraqi army the USA was fighting
against a while back. Surely they fall into the category "Iraqi or
otherwise" (as do insurgents)

I guess someone believing they are right is only used as moral justification
when you also believe they are doing "The Right Thing". Sorry, but in this
case I don't.
I should have figured straw man arguments would show up here eventually.
It is alt.html, after all. ;)

I was just pointing out it's an odd argument that we should stand up for
someone just because they believe they are right - by that logic you would
stand up for dictators, terrorists etc.

Here in the UK Tony Blair comes out with this sort of argument a lot - for
example that he thinks it's ok he made serioius mistakes wrt intelegence
because he acted in good faith. Personally, I don't think that counts for
much.
 
L

Lemming

Here in the UK Tony Blair comes out with this sort of argument a lot - for
example that he thinks it's ok he made serioius mistakes wrt intelegence
because he acted in good faith. Personally, I don't think that counts for
much.

I don't believe Bliar acted in good faith. I believe he knew exactly
what he was doing, that Saddam was not a threat, he was not linked to
Muslim terrorists - certainly not linked to the fantasy enemy invented
by the US Government and commonly referred to as Al Qaeda. Bliar just
wanted to be a War Leader. Well, he got his wish. 100,000 Iraqi
civilians are dead. The ME is destabilised even further than before.
Iraq is likely to become another country like Iran (i.e. with an
elected, fundamentalist Muslim government). Countries who might
previously have got rid of their WMD programmes and allowed UN
inspectors access will not now do so because they see that once you
lose your weapons and demonstrate to the world that they are gone you
are ripe for invasion by the US and its allies. The world in general
is much less secure - and all to satisfy Bliar's vanity. I wonder how
he sleeps at night.

Lemming
 
M

Matthias Gutfeldt

Lemming said:
Iraq is likely to become another country like Iran (i.e. with an
elected, fundamentalist Muslim government).

Did you read the recent IHT article, "Conservatives: The right awaits
its ‘revolution’" at
<http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/11/04/news/neocon.html>? Looks like
the self-declared Conservative "Christians" (nothing christian in their
agenda, IMHO) want a fundamentalist Christian government in the USA.


Matthias
 
J

Jim Higson

Lemming said:
certainly not linked to the fantasy enemy invented
by the US Government and commonly referred to as Al Qaeda.

Greatly exaggerated, yes. But not a complete fantasy.

I think terrorism in general has been hyped way beyond reality. There is a
far greater danger of being murdered by someone from your own town than by
an extremeist from the other side of the world.

Or, taking a random world citizen, it is much more likely you'll be killed
by the war on terror than terrorism itself.
 
M

Matthias Gutfeldt

Jim said:
Lemming wrote:




Greatly exaggerated, yes. But not a complete fantasy.

I think terrorism in general has been hyped way beyond reality. There is a
far greater danger of being murdered by someone from your own town than by
an extremeist from the other side of the world.

Absolutely. Remember the "war on drugs"? The entertainment industry
loved it, they sold hundreds of movies about baaad drug gangstas. And
now, with the "war on terror", they sell hundreds of movies about baaaad
terrorists. Same for the computer game industry.

Or, taking a random world citizen, it is much more likely you'll be killed
by the war on terror than terrorism itself.

I'm afraid you're right. Once they discover the massive oil reservoirs
under Swiss soil they'll come and "liberate" us in no time at all :-(.


Matthias
 
K

Karl Core

Matthias Gutfeldt said:
I'm afraid you're right. Once they discover the massive oil reservoirs
under Swiss soil they'll come and "liberate" us in no time at all :-(.

Hey now. How else am I supposed to feed my big 5.0 liter SUV?!?
Sheesh!

-Karl
 
J

jake

Lemming said:
[snip]

The world in general
is much less secure - and all to satisfy Bliar's vanity. I wonder how
he sleeps at night.

He sleeps the sleep of the righteous -- what else would he do when he's
helped (as part of the coalition of the willing) to deliver an entire
people from oppression.

We're lucky to have a leader with a sense of what's right in this world.
 
N

Neal

Toby said:
Actually about 65% of registered voters didn't vote for him. About 35% of
registered voters voted for other candidates and about 30% didn't vote at
all.

And 45% of me can't quite figure the math. Oh well.
 
G

Greg Schmidt

Exactly. So only a quarter of the population was actually pro-Bush. One
quarter was anti-Bush, and half couldn't care less. Scary way to elect a
national leader.

I've been trying to decide whether the Australian system (where you are
legally required to vote, whether or not you even know the names of
candidates let alone their platforms) is any better. Now, if there was a
way to require that everyone eligible gets educated about the candidates
*and* votes, we might have something.
 
L

Lemming

Greatly exaggerated, yes. But not a complete fantasy.

The term Al Qaeda was invented in a US court in January 2001, by a
plea-bargaining con-man who gave it as the name of the organisation of
which OBL was leader. In fact, OBL is/was not a leader of any large
organisation. He's a money-man, a visionary, but otherwise is
isolated. The video footage available which shows him being escorted
by a private army is bogus - he hired the "troops" for the day. They
were even required to bring their own weapons, as OBL had none to give
them.

There is no organised global terror network. There are lots of
separate terrorist groups, but they all operate independently. They
are still capable of killing, of course, but the spectre of Al Qaeda
is pure fantasy, invented by the Bush administration in order to
instil fear in the American population, because if people are afraid
they are easier to control.
I think terrorism in general has been hyped way beyond reality. There is a
far greater danger of being murdered by someone from your own town than by
an extremeist from the other side of the world.

Or, taking a random world citizen, it is much more likely you'll be killed
by the war on terror than terrorism itself.

I strongly suspect that the so-called "War On Terror" has already
taken more innocent lives than all the other acts of terror combined
in this century and the last.

The terrorists have won: the people of the US re-elected them.

Lemming
 
L

Lemming

Lemming said:
[snip]

The world in general
is much less secure - and all to satisfy Bliar's vanity. I wonder how
he sleeps at night.

He sleeps the sleep of the righteous -- what else would he do when he's
helped (as part of the coalition of the willing) to deliver an entire
people from oppression.

Aye, I'll grant you that; He's freed over 100,000 of them to pieces.
We're lucky to have a leader with a sense of what's right in this world.

If only it were so.

Lemming
 
M

mike

I'm sorry that my country's a nation of fuckheads.

That is all.

-Karl

Hi All
Please lets set some things right in your minds?
1. The war is not about oil. Its a foot hold in the mid east!!
2. The high gas prices are because of the building that china
is doing and the rest of the world too.
3. Pres. Bush went to the U.N but that was a bad thing, Y The
bunch of them are crooks and hate us anyway becuase they are
poor.
4. We need to out source more jobs so all can have a good life.
5. sen. Kerry spent 4 months in country and happened to have a
video cam. not a easy thing back in 1969 I was there. Just a
rich kid their to get a few pictures to look good when he runs
for office.
^ i cuold go on but got to get back to work now
GOD BLESS AMERICA
PS sorry for the spelling but if thats a big thing to you i
cant help it get a life.
 
J

Jim

mike said:
Hi All
Please lets set some things right in your minds?
1. The war is not about oil. Its a foot hold in the mid east!!
2. The high gas prices are because of the building that china
is doing and the rest of the world too.
3. Pres. Bush went to the U.N but that was a bad thing, Y The
bunch of them are crooks and hate us anyway becuase they are
poor.
4. We need to out source more jobs so all can have a good life.
5. sen. Kerry spent 4 months in country and happened to have a
video cam. not a easy thing back in 1969 I was there. Just a
rich kid their to get a few pictures to look good when he runs
for office.
^ i cuold go on but got to get back to work now
GOD BLESS AMERICA
PS sorry for the spelling but if thats a big thing to you i
cant help it get a life.

You go brother!
 
T

Travis Newbury

Actually about 65% of registered voters didn't vote for him. About 35% of
registered voters voted for other candidates and about 30% didn't vote at
all.

Why is it so hard to accept he won fair and square, and most of the
people in the US are happy with the decision. Why try to belittle him
by throwing out number that don't reflect reality?
 

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