Overriden method doesn't throw Exception, super may.

[Tony Morris]

I think what may be going on has nothing to do with the supposed

debate. What we may have is a dominance challenge, trying to make one
of the regulars look foolish. It is standard male gorilla behaviour,
complete with feces flinging.

I think any debate, heated or not, is beneficial if there is an opportunity
for either party to learn something.
I also think it is up to the participants to determine whether or not that
opportunity is still present.
If Participant1 decides that the argument is not going to be beneficial to
anybody, just cease it - it's damn easy.

Participant1: "But you said this"
Participant2: "No I said this"
Patricipant1: "Neither of us will benefit from this"
Participant2: "But you said this"
Participant1: *ignore and move on*

Heck, if you (not directed at anyone in particular) can't cease a newsgroup
debate, I don't know how you'd go in a *real* argument (for example, if you
had a girlfriend)

Life was so simple before I had a missus and kids and debts and ...

 

[Chris Smith]

I get sick to the stomach. I find these battles drain my energy which
is already quite limited. There are so many things that need to get
done, and yet we humans put these petty squabbles as top priority.

Really, no one is forcing you to listen.

I'm surprised that you and Tony are reading this any more, and I doubt
that many other people are. Yes, there are probably many better uses of
my time and "Java Architect"'s time than continuing this discussion, but
we're continuing it anyway... and there is some real content in addition
to the bad feelings going around, hence I'll probably stick around as
long as that content does. That content still ends up on Google, and
people might read it and find out something there.

I still haven't seen the feces you speak of, though. If I do, I'm
calling quits right there.

Anyway, if we all made the best possible use of our time, we'd all be
members of the Peace Corps or belong to a religious order of some kind,
and none of us would have internet connections; and then where would the
world be?

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

 

[Tony Morris]

I'm surprised that you and Tony are reading this any more, and I doubt

that many other people are.

I have a good reason to procrastinate I assure you.

 

[Roedy Green]

I'm surprised that you and Tony are reading this any more, and I doubt
that many other people are.

These pop up all over the place. Java groups are calmer than most
groups. The ones that are the real bears are the ones you are in
yourself where a guy tails you, changing ids if you plonk him, and
just won't go away.

I am partly here for moral support.

When stuck such as you are, I think to myself, "Have I made my points
clearly? Is there a way I could explain this another way? Am I just
repeating myself? Is there some delusion my opponent has that I could
pop?"

At a certain point you just have to say, "entertaining trolls is not
the highest use of my time" and let him have the last word.

Humour helps. Check out http://mindprod.com/jgloss/flame.html

You made your points to the audience. He is not going to say uncle.
It's a guy thing.

If you really want to win, you will have to find a way for him to save
face while capitulating.

Now watch great philosopher me lose it over in comp.lang.java.advocacy
in the HTML creep thread, where Justin Farley has decided I am an
incarnation of Dr. Ock.

 

[Java Architect]

I think what may be going on has nothing to do with the supposed
debate. What we may have is a dominance challenge, trying to make one
of the regulars look foolish. It is standard male gorilla behaviour,
complete with feces flinging.

There is no dominance challenge. I could care less about dominance, and who
is a regular, blah blah...

I had some time on my hands, posted a solution and Chris and I are engaged
in a debate about whether that solution is valid or not (it took a while to
take shape because I kept misreading the problem). We've strayed in a few
cases, but the overall discussion, I believe, is constructive.

I do take not that you used my words as a quote and '..trying to make one of
the regulars look foolish" certainly sounds like your hopping into the arena
without much thought other than "Who's been posting here longer" which,
quite frankly, is silly. If you don't like the discussion, please, feel free
to ignore it. You don't like what 'newbies' post, feel free to ignore them
as well.

Symptoms are when people start telling each other what they intended
to say, or twist words to interpret in the silliest possible way.

How dare people clarify themselves!

I do believe that twisting someone's words is an invalid argumentative
technique and I don't participate in it. I've neither twisted someone's
words, not tried to build a straw man. I have however complained that I
thought my post was quoted and edited in a manner to change it's meaning.
Chris said that wasn't his intention, so, I'm over it.

When one of these battles gets going, the participants are attempting
to put down rather than persuade.

Perhaps someday we will have AI filters to screen that nonsense.

In the interim, you could just see something you don't like, click the
'ignore' button and be bothered by it no more.

Perhaps someday we will have subnewsgroups where people agree to
refrain from ad hominems.

What was your gorilla remark?

Perhaps there will be some sort of forum where it is impossible to make

personal comments, starting with purely

anonymous posts.

Well, we'd have to start with a forum that doesn't allow anonymity. Since
Usenet isn't such a forum, I suggest you start on your own protocol to to
this.

I get sick to the stomach.I find these battles drain my energy which
is already quite limited.

I'm sorry that you take something like Usenet so seriously.

There are so many things that need to get
done, and yet we humans put these petty squabbles as top priority.

Perhaps resisting the temptation to defend oneself might work.

Perhaps resisting the temptation to attack others might work equally well.

 

[Roedy Green]

There is no dominance challenge. I could care less about dominance, and who
is a regular, blah blah...

I don't think so. Your attacks were ad hominem.

See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/adhominem.html if you are unsure what I
am talking about.

 

[Java Architect]

I don't think so. Your attacks were ad hominem.

First, I never 'attacked.' I did get pissed when I thought that Chris was
doing something argumentatively underhanded, but even then, I never made
anything close to the gorilla remark.

See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/adhominem.html if you are unsure what I
am talking about.

LOL I was captain of a debate team that did well enough for itself. We were
well trained in avoiding argumentative fallacies.

Your remark in another post about only dropping in for moral support says
that you're irrelevant to the discussion, you have no motivation to further
it and are not putting any input in which has any bearing whatsoever on the
actual topic. Please, since it makes you ill, feel free to ignore the
thread.

And, if I'm just a troll, as you so 'ad-hominemly' put it, put me in your
killfile. That way, you won't waste your time reading or responding to me.

I'm pretty much done with this topic anyway. I'm leaving Chris with the last
word because, we've both said our piece and saying more would probably be
just repitition. If any new questions are asked of me in this thread I'll
respond, but, I won't do the gorilla thing.

 

[Roedy Green]

LOL I was captain of a debate team that did well enough for itself. We were
well trained in avoiding argumentative fallacies.

Cough, then why the unfounded crack about Chris grandstanding to
attract customers? That's pure gorilla feces slinging.

And, even if he were grandstanding, that is still a logical fallacy.

I think you need a refresher. Check out that link
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/adhominem.html

 

[Roedy Green]

There is no dominance challenge. I could care less about dominance, and who
is a regular, blah blah..

The lady doth protest too much methinks. Look at your inflated handle
"Java architect". Who the hell do you think you are, James Gosling?

I am not sure if you are lying or simply unaware of the one-upmanship
games you are playing.

I don't think you are aware how you come across, as a whiny, arrogant,
spoiled teenager.

I presume you would like to be respected. What you are doing is
getting you the very opposite. Go ahead and argue; we love arguing
here, but do it with a civil tongue. That will gain you respect.

 

[Java Architect]

Cough, then why the unfounded crack about Chris grandstanding to
attract customers? That's pure gorilla feces slinging.

As I've said, I have nothing against building a rep here to attract
customers, so it absolutely wasn't slinging of anything. It was just
pointing out what I thought his motive was for doing something underhanded
in order to win an argument: it's absolutely not any kind of argumentative
fault to point out an ulterior motive (whether that motive is benign or not
is irrelevant). He says that wasn't his motive, and, with no reason not to,
I take his word for it. He and I already settled that, so who are you to
jump in and brew trouble?

 

[Java Architect]

The lady doth protest too much methinks. Look at your inflated handle
"Java architect". Who the hell do you think you are, James Gosling?

So, this is about you taking offense at my handle? So, your whole deal is to
try to humble the guy who used a job title as a nick? It happenned to be my
job title on the contract I was working at the time I began using it on IRC.
Man, I'd hate to see how you'd react to someone who had a nick like Chief
Technologist, CIO or, heaven forbid, CEO? A handle is not at all inflated if
it's accurate.

I am not sure if you are lying or simply unaware of the one-upmanship
games you are playing.

Or, maybe, I am not playing them. Maybe you are so concerned with my nick,
and took offense so easilly that you assumed the motives. Please, point out
the 'one-upmanship.' Is saying "I disagree" with a regular one-upmanship?

I don't think you are aware how you come across, as a whiny, arrogant,
spoiled teenager.

I know this is a type of 'you are/No, you are' response, but I was honestly
thinking this very thing about you regarding this thread. Maybe we both
should look in the mirror.

I presume you would like to be respected. What you are doing is
getting you the very opposite.

Actually, I'm not posting here for respect. I'm posting here because I
figured I might help some people. Chris' and my discussion was about
ferreting out which idea was better. Even though I thnk I'm right, I feel
that I lost the debate. I wish I could have made a better argument, but I'm
not gonna lose sleep. I don't need to save face because, well, I don't think
helping people is about that.

Maybe the paradigm should shift from "Regulars deserve respect and should
dispense advice without challenge," to "New- or old-timer, let's get some
synergy (in the Hegelian sense) going and come up with the best solutions
possible."

Go ahead and argue; we love arguing here, but do it with a civil tongue.

My tongue has been nothing but civil. I'm being quite civil to you even
though you hardly have warranted the couresy: I'm just that civil kinda guy.
I have not called anyone a troll. I have not called anyone a gorilla. The
only thing that could even remotely be considered uncivil would be my remark
about Chris's motivations, and I apologize for making it because it,
obviously, did not convey the meaning I intended.

 

[Tony Morris]

The lady doth protest too much methinks. Look at your inflated handle
"Java architect". Who the hell do you think you are, James Gosling?

I am not sure if you are lying or simply unaware of the one-upmanship
games you are playing.

I don't think you are aware how you come across, as a whiny, arrogant,
spoiled teenager.

I presume you would like to be respected. What you are doing is
getting you the very opposite. Go ahead and argue; we love arguing
here, but do it with a civil tongue. That will gain you respect.

A Java Architect is one who has achieved the SCEA in my opinion.
A job title is something I often have a chuckle at.
I'll never forget the "Internet Security Specialist" who asked me what HTTPS
is (in person).

Roedy, I think you are being a tad hypocritical.
Again, nobody will benefit from this thread, so why continue it?