p tag vs br tag

Discussion in 'HTML' started by posterguy, Apr 13, 2004.

  1. posterguy

    posterguy Guest

    Wow!

    I just got an email from a guy... well, read this:

    "STOP using <p> tags use <br> tags only <p> tags add
    unnecessary space"

    WHAT THE HELL IS HE TALKING ABOUT?? Is it ME, or is this guy NUTS?

    Ort
    posterguy, Apr 13, 2004
    #1
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  2. posterguy

    Neal Guest

    On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 20:40:46 GMT, posterguy <> wrote:

    > Wow!
    >
    > I just got an email from a guy... well, read this:
    >
    > "STOP using <p> tags use <br> tags only <p> tags add
    > unnecessary space"
    >
    > WHAT THE HELL IS HE TALKING ABOUT?? Is it ME, or is this guy NUTS?
    >


    <p> (and the closing tag </p> which may be optional for you) set off a
    paragraph. Most user agents render paragraphs with the space of one blank
    line between.

    <br>, of course, is a simple line break, or "carriage return", and leaves
    no space.

    Now, when I was first learning "tags" for using in forums and whatnot so
    many years ago, to me <p> meant "double space" and <br> meant "single
    space". Obviously, this is long before I ever REALLY learned HTML.

    So seems to me this guy is wet behind the ears on what these elements are
    for. Without knowing more about the context, I can't comment further.
    Neal, Apr 13, 2004
    #2
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  3. posterguy

    posterguy Guest

    "Neal" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:...
    > On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 20:40:46 GMT, posterguy <> wrote:
    >
    > > Wow!
    > >
    > > I just got an email from a guy... well, read this:
    > >
    > > "STOP using <p> tags use <br> tags only <p> tags add
    > > unnecessary space"
    > >
    > > WHAT THE HELL IS HE TALKING ABOUT?? Is it ME, or is this guy NUTS?
    > >

    >
    > <p> (and the closing tag </p> which may be optional for you) set off a
    > paragraph. Most user agents render paragraphs with the space of one blank
    > line between.
    >
    > <br>, of course, is a simple line break, or "carriage return", and leaves
    > no space.
    >
    > Now, when I was first learning "tags" for using in forums and whatnot so
    > many years ago, to me <p> meant "double space" and <br> meant "single
    > space". Obviously, this is long before I ever REALLY learned HTML.
    >
    > So seems to me this guy is wet behind the ears on what these elements are
    > for. Without knowing more about the context, I can't comment further.


    I use the <p> to end a paragraph, and set it apart from the next. He
    'suggests' using 2 <br> tags, which I use to set one line of say, items, in
    a column.

    I just don't get why he insists THIS ... <br><br><br> uses less space, than
    <p>. I think he's gone loopy.

    Additionally, he's making urls with SPACES in them. Yes, they resolve, but
    cutting/pasting his links to an email is a royal pain, having to close the
    gaps first! I have no idae where he gets these ideas.

    I dunno... seems like bad micromanaging to me...
    posterguy, Apr 13, 2004
    #3
  4. posterguy

    Karl Groves Guest

    "posterguy" <> wrote in message
    news:ifYec.3$...
    > Wow!
    >
    > I just got an email from a guy... well, read this:
    >
    > "STOP using <p> tags use <br> tags only <p> tags add
    > unnecessary space"
    >
    > WHAT THE HELL IS HE TALKING ABOUT?? Is it ME, or is this guy NUTS?


    He's an idiot.
    Tell him to get bent.

    -Karl
    Karl Groves, Apr 13, 2004
    #4
  5. posterguy

    C A Upsdell Guest

    "posterguy" <> wrote in message
    news:ifYec.3$...
    > Wow!
    >
    > I just got an email from a guy... well, read this:
    >
    > "STOP using <p> tags use <br> tags only <p> tags add
    > unnecessary space"
    >
    > WHAT THE HELL IS HE TALKING ABOUT?? Is it ME, or is this guy NUTS?


    He's nuts.
    C A Upsdell, Apr 13, 2004
    #5
  6. posterguy

    posterguy Guest

    "C A Upsdell" <cupsdell0311XXX@-@> wrote in message
    news:eBYec.856$...
    > "posterguy" <> wrote in message
    > news:ifYec.3$...
    > > Wow!
    > >
    > > I just got an email from a guy... well, read this:
    > >
    > > "STOP using <p> tags use <br> tags only <p> tags add
    > > unnecessary space"
    > >
    > > WHAT THE HELL IS HE TALKING ABOUT?? Is it ME, or is this guy NUTS?

    >
    > He's nuts.
    >
    >


    Welp... looks like I'm going to look for another job. I can't take this
    guy, anymore.

    Thank you all for your input. I thought I was going crazy for a minute
    there.

    That email I quoted completely floored me.

    peace

    mike
    posterguy, Apr 13, 2004
    #6
  7. posterguy

    Neal Guest

    On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 20:54:22 GMT, posterguy <> wrote:

    > I use the <p> to end a paragraph, and set it apart from the next. He
    > 'suggests' using 2 <br> tags, which I use to set one line of say, items,
    > in
    > a column.



    You are far more correct than he is, rest assured.

    I'll refer you to http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.3 and
    suggest he read it. I'll bet you the standards are news to him...
    Neal, Apr 13, 2004
    #7
  8. posterguy wrote:

    > I use the <p> to end a paragraph, and set it apart from the next.


    Actually <p> *begins* a paragraph.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?page=132
    Toby A Inkster, Apr 13, 2004
    #8
  9. posterguy

    Mark Parnell Guest

    On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 20:40:46 GMT, "posterguy" <>
    declared in alt.html:

    > I just got an email from a guy... well, read this:
    >
    > "STOP using <p> tags use <br> tags only <p> tags add
    > unnecessary space"
    >
    > WHAT THE HELL IS HE TALKING ABOUT?? Is it ME, or is this guy NUTS?


    Yes, he's nuts. If it is a paragraph, mark it up as a paragraph. If it
    is a line break, mark it up as a line break. Quite simple, isn't it? :)
    You can adjust the margins with CSS if you don't like the amount of
    space it creates.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    Mark Parnell, Apr 13, 2004
    #9
  10. posterguy

    brucie Guest

    in post: <news:ifYec.3$>
    "posterguy" <> said:

    > I just got an email from a guy... well, read this:
    >
    > "STOP using <p> tags use <br> tags only <p> tags add
    > unnecessary space"


    tell him you had to use <p>s because you ran out of <br>s


    --
    b r u c i e
    brucie, Apr 14, 2004
    #10
  11. posterguy

    Mark Parnell Guest

    On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:10:18 +1000, brucie <>
    declared in alt.html:

    > tell him you had to use <p>s because you ran out of <br>s


    Or tell him that you're not cold, but you need to visit the men's room.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    Mark Parnell, Apr 14, 2004
    #11
  12. posterguy

    posterguy Guest

    "Toby A Inkster" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > posterguy wrote:
    >
    > > I use the <p> to end a paragraph, and set it apart from the next.

    >
    > Actually <p> *begins* a paragraph.
    >
    > --
    > Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    > Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?page=132
    >


    Ah - Quite!

    mike
    posterguy, Apr 14, 2004
    #12
  13. posterguy

    Mark Parnell Guest

    On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 22:19:04 +0100, Toby A Inkster
    <> declared in alt.html:

    > Actually <p> *begins* a paragraph.


    Though if it immediately follows another paragraph that hasn't been
    closed, it does end that one as well as starting a new one.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    Mark Parnell, Apr 14, 2004
    #13
  14. "Mark Parnell" <> wrote in message
    news:6fwwr5cw0u1f$.1ovbgsatak1zz$...
    > On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 22:19:04 +0100, Toby A Inkster
    > <> declared in alt.html:
    >
    > > Actually <p> *begins* a paragraph.

    >
    > Though if it immediately follows another paragraph that hasn't been
    > closed, it does end that one as well as starting a new one.



    Unless its upside down and backwards. Then it just makes all the text look
    like it needs to go on the Atkin's diet. :-D

    --Tina
    Tina - AffordableHOST.com, Apr 14, 2004
    #14
  15. On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 20:54:22 +0000, posterguy wrote:

    > I just don't get why he insists THIS ... <br><br><br> uses less space, than
    > <p>. I think he's gone loopy.


    <style type="text/css">
    p { margin: 0; }
    br { padding: 8em; }
    </style>
    ....
    <p>I don't know what you're talking about.</p>

    --
    Some say the Wired doesn't have political borders like the real world,
    but there are far too many nonsense-spouting anarchists or idiots who
    think that pranks are a revolution.
    Owen Jacobson, Apr 14, 2004
    #15
  16. posterguy

    Jeff Thies Guest

    > Welp... looks like I'm going to look for another job. I can't take this
    > guy, anymore.
    >
    > Thank you all for your input. I thought I was going crazy for a minute
    > there.
    >
    > That email I quoted completely floored me.


    You have to understand that most clients just want a certain look.

    Paragraphs are good things, if your client doesn't like the margins, reduce
    them with CSS as has already been suggested.

    Cheers,
    Jeff

    >
    > peace
    >
    > mike
    >
    >
    Jeff Thies, Apr 14, 2004
    #16
  17. Toby A Inkster wrote:
    > posterguy wrote:
    >
    >> I use the <p> to end a paragraph, and set it apart from the next.

    >
    > Actually <p> *begins* a paragraph.


    A long time ago, and far far away, <p> was a paragraph separator. (Did </p>
    exist in those days?)

    Perhaps this is why Neal says "Now, when I was first learning "tags" for using
    in forums and whatnot so many years ago, to me <p> meant "double space" and
    <br> meant "single space"."

    --
    Barry Pearson
    http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/
    http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/
    http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/
    Barry Pearson, Apr 14, 2004
    #17
  18. posterguy

    Neal Guest

    On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 08:48:55 +0100, Barry Pearson
    <> wrote:


    > A long time ago, and far far away, <p> was a paragraph separator. (Did
    > </p>
    > exist in those days?)
    >
    > Perhaps this is why Neal says "Now, when I was first learning "tags" for
    > using
    > in forums and whatnot so many years ago, to me <p> meant "double space"
    > and
    > <br> meant "single space"."
    >


    This was, of course, back when I didn't even know it was HTML, just "cool
    stuff". But even then it was not a paragraph ender, but a starter.

    From http://ftp.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/html/rfc1866.txt :

    5.5.1. Paragraph: P

    The <P> element indicates a paragraph. The exact indentation, leading
    space, etc. of a paragraph is not specified and may be a function of
    other tags, style sheets, etc.

    Typically, paragraphs are surrounded by a vertical space of one line
    or half a line. The first line in a paragraph is indented in some
    cases.

    Example of use:

    <H1>This Heading Precedes the Paragraph</H1>
    <P>This is the text of the first paragraph.
    <P>This is the text of the second paragraph. Although you do not
    need to start paragraphs on new lines, maintaining this
    convention facilitates document maintenance.</P>
    <P>This is the text of a third paragraph.</P>

    Even in HTML 2.0, complete open and close markup was used. The closing tag
    was optional, as you can see.
    Neal, Apr 14, 2004
    #18
  19. Neal wrote:
    > On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 08:48:55 +0100, Barry Pearson
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> A long time ago, and far far away, <p> was a paragraph separator.
    >> (Did </p> exist in those days?)

    [snip]
    > This was, of course, back when I didn't even know it was HTML, just
    > "cool stuff". But even then it was not a paragraph ender, but a
    > starter.
    > From http://ftp.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/html/rfc1866.txt :

    [snip]

    I was probably being influenced by the following (and perhaps poor memory
    too):
    http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/HTMLPlus/htmlplus_11.html

    "If you wish, you may think of the <P> tag as a paragraph separator. This
    works since HTML+ formally doesn't require you to wrap text up as
    paragraphs.... Browsers, when parsing paragraphs, can choose to simply treat
    the <P> tag as denoting a paragraph break."

    HTML+ wasn't a formal specification, but a 1993 proposal. But the above page
    is interesting because of the way it talks of both forms as being
    similar/equivalent. Some of the rigour (well - sort-of) that we see in later
    specifications was not there early on, perhaps even in the thinking of the
    pioneers.

    I wonder how much of more rigorous thinking was influenced by the need to have
    an unambiguous document tree to enable CSS to make sense?

    --
    Barry Pearson
    http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/
    http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/
    http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/
    Barry Pearson, Apr 14, 2004
    #19
  20. Barry Pearson <> wrote:

    >>> A long time ago, and far far away, <p> was a paragraph
    >>> separator. (Did </p> exist in those days?)

    > [snip]
    >> This was, of course, back when I didn't even know it was HTML,
    >> just "cool stuff". But even then it was not a paragraph ender,
    >> but a starter.
    >> From http://ftp.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/html/rfc1866.txt :

    > [snip]
    >
    > I was probably being influenced by the following (and perhaps poor
    > memory too):
    > http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/HTMLPlus/htmlplus_11.html


    Even before HTML+, http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/draft-ietf-iiir-html-01.txt
    said that "The P element marks the break between two paragraphs", and
    it's content model was EMPTY:
    <!ELEMENT P - O EMPTY -- separates paragraphs -->

    --
    David Håsäther
    David Håsäther, Apr 14, 2004
    #20
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