Paragraph tags different in Mozilla

Discussion in 'HTML' started by tshad, May 12, 2005.

  1. tshad

    tshad Guest

    I have a table where I have use a paragraph tag to indent my lines (actually
    Front Page added it). But it causes all kinds of problems in Mozilla.

    If you look at my samples you can see the difference.

    If you look at http://www.payrollworkshop.com/samples/paragraphtest1.htm you
    will see a box that is larger than the text if you look at it in Mozilla.
    In IE, the box is the same height (approx.) as the text. The code is:

    <td valign="bottom" bgcolor="#C0C0C0">
    <p style="margin-left: 15">Profiles on File:</p></td>
    <td valign="bottom" bgcolor="#C0C0C0" colspan="5">&nbsp; </td>

    I am only setting the margin on the left here, so why is Mozilla using it
    all around the box?

    If I take the <p> code out - it works fine in both IE and Mozilla
    (http://www.payrollworkshop.com/samples/paragraphtest2.htm).

    In either case, it doesn't seem to work. It doesn't seem to indent the
    text, anyway. I also tried it in the <td> field with no effect.

    Thanks,

    Tom
    tshad, May 12, 2005
    #1
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  2. tshad

    Adrienne Guest

    Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "tshad"
    <> writing in
    news:6tLge.1691$:

    > I have a table where I have use a paragraph tag to indent my lines
    > (actually Front Page added it). But it causes all kinds of problems in
    > Mozilla.
    >
    > If you look at my samples you can see the difference.
    >
    > If you look at
    > http://www.payrollworkshop.com/samples/paragraphtest1.htm you will see
    > a box that is larger than the text if you look at it in Mozilla. In IE,
    > the box is the same height (approx.) as the text. The code is:
    >
    > <td valign="bottom" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"> <p style="margin-left:
    > 15">Profiles on File:</p></td> <td valign="bottom" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"
    > colspan="5">&nbsp; </td>
    >
    > I am only setting the margin on the left here, so why is Mozilla using
    > it all around the box?
    >
    > If I take the <p> code out - it works fine in both IE and Mozilla
    > (http://www.payrollworkshop.com/samples/paragraphtest2.htm).
    >
    > In either case, it doesn't seem to work. It doesn't seem to indent the
    > text, anyway. I also tried it in the <td> field with no effect.
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    > Tom
    >
    >
    >


    1. Get rid of FrontPage.
    2. Stop abusing tables.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne, May 12, 2005
    #2
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  3. Adrienne wrote:
    > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "tshad"
    > <> writing in
    > news:6tLge.1691$:
    >
    >>I have a table where I have use a paragraph tag to indent my lines
    >>(actually Front Page added it). But it causes all kinds of problems in
    >>Mozilla.
    >>
    >>If you look at my samples you can see the difference.
    >>
    >>If you look at
    >>http://www.payrollworkshop.com/samples/paragraphtest1.htm you will see
    >>a box that is larger than the text if you look at it in Mozilla. In IE,
    >>the box is the same height (approx.) as the text. The code is:
    >>
    >> <td valign="bottom" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"> <p style="margin-left:
    >> 15">Profiles on File:</p></td> <td valign="bottom" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"
    >> colspan="5">&nbsp; </td>
    >>
    >>I am only setting the margin on the left here, so why is Mozilla using
    >>it all around the box?
    >>
    >>If I take the <p> code out - it works fine in both IE and Mozilla
    >>(http://www.payrollworkshop.com/samples/paragraphtest2.htm).
    >>
    >>In either case, it doesn't seem to work. It doesn't seem to indent the
    >>text, anyway. I also tried it in the <td> field with no effect.

    >
    > 1. Get rid of FrontPage.
    > 2. Stop abusing tables.


    3. Add some units to the incorrect <p style="margin-left: 15">

    15 cars? Dogs? Ah ... 15 cheeseburgers!

    --
    -bts
    -This space intentionally left blank.
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, May 12, 2005
    #3
  4. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Adrienne" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns96546E4DE49DCarbpenyahoocom@207.115.63.158...
    > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "tshad"
    > <> writing in
    > news:6tLge.1691$:
    >
    >> I have a table where I have use a paragraph tag to indent my lines
    >> (actually Front Page added it). But it causes all kinds of problems in
    >> Mozilla.
    >>
    >> If you look at my samples you can see the difference.
    >>
    >> If you look at
    >> http://www.payrollworkshop.com/samples/paragraphtest1.htm you will see
    >> a box that is larger than the text if you look at it in Mozilla. In IE,
    >> the box is the same height (approx.) as the text. The code is:
    >>
    >> <td valign="bottom" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"> <p style="margin-left:
    >> 15">Profiles on File:</p></td> <td valign="bottom" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"
    >> colspan="5">&nbsp; </td>
    >>
    >> I am only setting the margin on the left here, so why is Mozilla using
    >> it all around the box?
    >>
    >> If I take the <p> code out - it works fine in both IE and Mozilla
    >> (http://www.payrollworkshop.com/samples/paragraphtest2.htm).
    >>
    >> In either case, it doesn't seem to work. It doesn't seem to indent the
    >> text, anyway. I also tried it in the <td> field with no effect.
    >>
    >> Thanks,
    >>
    >> Tom
    >>
    >>
    >>

    >
    > 1. Get rid of FrontPage.


    I am not using FP, but my boss had been using it and is now mainly using DW
    to build pages.

    > 2. Stop abusing tables.


    How did I abuse tables in my example?

    Tom
    >
    > --
    > Adrienne Boswell
    > http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    > Please respond to the group so others can share
    tshad, May 12, 2005
    #4
  5. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in message
    news:yRMge.15969$...
    > Adrienne wrote:
    >> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "tshad"
    >> <> writing in
    >> news:6tLge.1691$:
    >>>I have a table where I have use a paragraph tag to indent my lines
    >>>(actually Front Page added it). But it causes all kinds of problems in
    >>>Mozilla.
    >>>If you look at my samples you can see the difference.
    >>>
    >>>If you look at
    >>>http://www.payrollworkshop.com/samples/paragraphtest1.htm you will see
    >>>a box that is larger than the text if you look at it in Mozilla. In IE,
    >>>the box is the same height (approx.) as the text. The code is:
    >>> <td valign="bottom" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"> <p style="margin-left:
    >>> 15">Profiles on File:</p></td> <td valign="bottom" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"
    >>> colspan="5">&nbsp; </td>
    >>>I am only setting the margin on the left here, so why is Mozilla using
    >>>it all around the box?
    >>>
    >>>If I take the <p> code out - it works fine in both IE and Mozilla
    >>>(http://www.payrollworkshop.com/samples/paragraphtest2.htm).
    >>>
    >>>In either case, it doesn't seem to work. It doesn't seem to indent the
    >>>text, anyway. I also tried it in the <td> field with no effect.

    >>
    >> 1. Get rid of FrontPage.
    >> 2. Stop abusing tables.

    >
    > 3. Add some units to the incorrect <p style="margin-left: 15">


    Again - Front Page added this.

    I agree. I assume this should be <p style="margin-left: 15px">

    Tom
    >
    > 15 cars? Dogs? Ah ... 15 cheeseburgers!
    >
    > --
    > -bts
    > -This space intentionally left blank.
    tshad, May 12, 2005
    #5
  6. tshad wrote:
    > Again - Front Page added this.
    >
    > I agree. I assume this should be <p style="margin-left: 15px">


    ...or 2em ...

    http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Tableless_layouts

    Your 8pt font is also unreadable. We discuss why not to use Verdana,
    and not to use px or pt for font every day here. Surely, you've read a
    few of those threads?

    --
    -bts
    -This space intentionally left blank.
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, May 12, 2005
    #6
  7. tshad

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Mark Parnell, May 13, 2005
    #7
  8. tshad

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Previously in alt.html, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"
    <> said:

    > 3. Add some units to the incorrect <p style="margin-left: 15">
    >
    > 15 cars? Dogs? Ah ... 15 cheeseburgers!


    Hobnobs. It's been a while since anyone brought any in here.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    alt.html FAQ :: http://html-faq.com/
    Mark Parnell, May 13, 2005
    #8
  9. tshad

    n|ck Guest

    Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
    > Your 8pt font is also unreadable. We discuss why not to use Verdana,


    I'm not sure I can see the rational behind shunning Verdana as a font for the
    web. I would've thought that the main problem was using Verdana when not using
    relative font sizes? Verdana was made for the screen... so why can't we use it?

    Basically, I don't see a problem with using it as long as it's size is set using
    a % (due to IE's "bug").
    n|ck, May 13, 2005
    #9
  10. n|ck wrote:
    > Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
    >
    >> Your 8pt font is also unreadable. We discuss why not to use
    >> Verdana,

    >
    > I'm not sure I can see the rational behind shunning Verdana as a
    > font for the web. I would've thought that the main problem was
    > using Verdana when not using relative font sizes? Verdana was made
    > for the screen... so why can't we use it?


    http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html

    > Basically, I don't see a problem with using it as long as it's size
    > is set using a % (due to IE's "bug").


    Yes, as long as you use 100 of them. 100%.

    --
    -bts
    -This space intentionally left blank.
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, May 13, 2005
    #10
  11. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in message
    news:CfOge.27169$...
    > tshad wrote:
    >> Again - Front Page added this.
    >>
    >> I agree. I assume this should be <p style="margin-left: 15px">

    >
    > ..or 2em ...
    >
    > http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Tableless_layouts
    >
    > Your 8pt font is also unreadable. We discuss why not to use Verdana, and
    > not to use px or pt for font every day here. Surely, you've read a few of
    > those threads?
    >


    Again, this is what FP puts out there.

    I actually do use fixed sized fonts, but they are all in my style sheets
    that I can change later. I just found that relative sizes caused me no end
    of problems when dealing with data input screens and getting things to line
    up.

    I actually use 10px, 12px and 14px:

    a.headerlink:active{
    font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
    font-size: 10px;
    color: #000000;
    text-decoration: underline;
    font-weight:bold;
    }
    ..UserHeader {
    color: #FFFFFF;
    font-size: 14px;
    font-weight: bold;
    font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
    }

    I also have them set at the same size as the graphic images I am using that
    have the text in them to make them consistant. How do you use a relative
    size font in a graphic image?

    Using standard out of the box browsers (IE, netscape, firefox) all look
    fine. I have my screen at 1024.

    We have had multiple people look at some of the pages without telling them
    how to set their browsers and they use different size screen resolutions and
    they don't seem to have a problem with it.

    I did figure out my problem, however.

    My example was missing the <p> tag, so it wasn't showing the problem
    correctly. Now it does.

    It was the DOCTYPE that was causing the problem.

    In http://www.payrollworkshop.com/Samples/ParagraphTest1.htm you can see
    this at the dop

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">

    As soon as I took the 2nd line out it works fine in all browsers. As you
    can see in http://www.payrollworkshop.com/Samples/ParagraphTest1.htm

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

    I found that not only did it have a large box around it, but the first
    example doesn't indent the text and the 2nd one does.

    Tom
    > --
    > -bts
    > -This space intentionally left blank.
    tshad, May 13, 2005
    #11
  12. tshad

    Toby Inkster Guest

    n|ck wrote:

    > I'm not sure I can see the rational behind shunning Verdana as a font
    > for the web. I would've thought that the main problem was using Verdana
    > when not using relative font sizes? Verdana was made for the screen...
    > so why can't we use it?


    http://tobyinkster.co.uk/web-fonts#verdana

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
    Toby Inkster, May 13, 2005
    #12
  13. tshad wrote:
    > "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in
    > message news:CfOge.27169$...
    >
    >> Your 8pt font is also unreadable. We discuss why not to use
    >> Verdana, and not to use px or pt for font every day here. Surely,
    >> you've read a few of those threads?

    >
    > Again, this is what FP puts out there.


    Sounds like a good reason to dump it. :)

    > I actually do use fixed sized fonts, but they are all in my style
    > sheets that I can change later. I just found that relative sizes
    > caused me no end of problems when dealing with data input screens
    > and getting things to line up.
    >
    > I actually use 10px, 12px and 14px:


    I always use 100% and have no problems at all. You must be doing
    something else wrong. Or, rather of course, FrontPage is doing
    something else wrong.

    Have we mentioned that IE users will not be able to resize your fonts
    if they have vision problems?

    > I also have them set at the same size as the graphic images I am
    > using that have the text in them to make them consistant. How do
    > you use a relative size font in a graphic image?


    A graphic image of text? Why not just use text? Unless you're showing
    mathematical formulae, or need a particular emphasized header, there
    is little reason to use a graphic of text.

    > Using standard out of the box browsers (IE, netscape, firefox) all
    > look fine. I have my screen at 1024.


    Screen size is unimportant. Browser window size is. My 1024 monitor
    usually has a browser window around 750-850px wide.

    > We have had multiple people look at some of the pages without
    > telling them how to set their browsers and they use different size
    > screen resolutions and they don't seem to have a problem with it.


    Again, screen resolution is not important.

    > I did figure out my problem, however.
    >
    > My example was missing the <p> tag, so it wasn't showing the
    > problem correctly. Now it does.
    >
    > It was the DOCTYPE that was causing the problem.
    >
    > In http://www.payrollworkshop.com/Samples/ParagraphTest1.htm you
    > can see this at the dop
    >
    > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
    > "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
    >
    > As soon as I took the 2nd line out it works fine in all browsers.
    > As you can see in
    > http://www.payrollworkshop.com/Samples/ParagraphTest1.htm
    >
    > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">


    The page still has the complete doctype. In fact, I think I recall
    that an incomplete doctype will still toss browsers into quirks mode.

    > I found that not only did it have a large box around it, but the
    > first example doesn't indent the text and the 2nd one does.


    ...and there are still no units on your paragraph margin.
    Still 15 cheeseburgers.

    --
    -bts
    -This space intentionally left blank.
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, May 13, 2005
    #13
  14. tshad

    Els Guest

    Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

    > Have we mentioned that IE users will not be able to resize your fonts
    > if they have vision problems?


    Only if they have vision problems? All the other users can resize px
    fonts? (SCNR ;-) )

    > The page still has the complete doctype. In fact, I think I recall
    > that an incomplete doctype will still toss browsers into quirks mode.


    Correct. It's the DTD (second half of doctype) that triggers standards
    mode.

    > ..and there are still no units on your paragraph margin.
    > Still 15 cheeseburgers.


    Hobnobs.

    --
    Els http://locusmeus.com/
    Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
    - Renato Russo -
    Now playing: Squeeze - Pulling Mussels (From The Shell)
    Els, May 13, 2005
    #14
  15. Els wrote:
    > Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
    >
    >> Have we mentioned that IE users will not be able to resize your
    >> fonts if they have vision problems?

    >
    > Only if they have vision problems? All the other users can resize
    > px fonts? (SCNR ;-) )


    Badly phrased, eh? "Have we mentioned that if IE users have vision
    problems and wish to resize so they can read it, won't be able to do
    that." Or even IE users who don't like microfonts ... <g>

    >> The page still has the complete doctype. In fact, I think I
    >> recall that an incomplete doctype will still toss browsers into
    >> quirks mode.

    >
    > Correct. It's the DTD (second half of doctype) that triggers
    > standards mode.
    >
    >> ..and there are still no units on your paragraph margin. Still 15
    >> cheeseburgers.

    >
    > Hobnobs.


    Cheeseburgers.

    --
    -bts
    -This space intentionally left blank.
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, May 13, 2005
    #15
  16. tshad

    Els Guest

    Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

    >>> ..and there are still no units on your paragraph margin. Still 15
    >>> cheeseburgers.

    >>
    >> Hobnobs.

    >
    > Cheeseburgers.


    Sorry, forgot you're American.
    ;P

    --
    Els http://locusmeus.com/
    Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
    - Renato Russo -
    Now playing: Twarres - She Couldn't Laugh
    Els, May 13, 2005
    #16
  17. tshad

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Els wrote:
    > Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
    >> Els wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hobnobs.

    >>
    >> Cheeseburgers.

    >
    > Sorry, forgot you're American.


    They dip *cheeseburgers* in *coffee* over there?

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
    Toby Inkster, May 13, 2005
    #17
  18. tshad

    Adrienne Guest

    Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "tshad"
    <> writing in
    news:7_Nge.1717$3%:

    > "Adrienne" <> wrote in message
    > news:Xns96546E4DE49DCarbpenyahoocom@207.115.63.158...
    >> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "tshad"
    >> <> writing in
    >> news:6tLge.1691$:
    >>
    >>> I have a table where I have use a paragraph tag to indent my lines
    >>> (actually Front Page added it). But it causes all kinds of problems
    >>> in Mozilla.
    >>>

    <snip>

    >> 1. Get rid of FrontPage.

    >
    > I am not using FP, but my boss had been using it and is now mainly
    > using DW to build pages.


    You will find that if you are going to be doing server side stuff that a
    plain text editor is a lot easier to use.

    >
    >> 2. Stop abusing tables.

    >
    > How did I abuse tables in my example?
    >


    <quote> I have a table where I use a paragraph...</quote>

    Tables are for tabular data, not for positioning of elements. There are
    plenty of elements that are sematically correct that can be styled a lot
    easier than your abuse of tables.

    After all, you probably wouldn't use Excel to write a business letter. Do
    not use tables for non-tabular data. Use the right tool for the job - use
    Strict HTML and CSS. Separate content from presentation.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne, May 14, 2005
    #18
  19. In article <>,
    Toby Inkster <> wrote:

    > Els wrote:
    > > Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
    > >> Els wrote:
    > >>> Hobnobs.
    > >>
    > >> Cheeseburgers.

    > >
    > > Sorry, forgot you're American.

    >
    > They dip *cheeseburgers* in *coffee* over there?


    Yeah, and we put ketchup on our doughnuts. It's a weird country, if you
    haven't already glommed onto that fact. ;-)

    --
    Joel.
    Joel Shepherd, May 14, 2005
    #19
  20. Joel Shepherd wrote:
    > In article <>, Toby
    > Inkster <> wrote:
    >
    >> Els wrote:
    >>
    >>> Sorry, forgot you're American.

    >>
    >> They dip *cheeseburgers* in *coffee* over there?

    >
    > Yeah, and we put ketchup on our doughnuts. It's a weird country, if
    > you haven't already glommed onto that fact. ;-)


    I use mustard on my doughnuts, and dip my cheeseburgers in *Pepsi*!

    --
    -bts
    -This space intentionally left blank.
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, May 14, 2005
    #20
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