paragraphs vs breaks

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Jim S, Jul 22, 2008.

  1. Jim S

    Jim S Guest

    My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p> paragraph
    tags.
    Since the latter involves 'before and after' line formatting, it seems to
    be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
    I'm sure there must be a reason, but I can't see it.
    Explain please.
    --
    Jim S
    Tyneside UK
    www.jimscott.co.uk
     
    Jim S, Jul 22, 2008
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Jim S wrote:
    > My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p> paragraph
    > tags.
    > Since the latter involves 'before and after' line formatting, it seems to
    > be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
    > I'm sure there must be a reason, but I can't see it.
    > Explain please.


    Paragraphs are paragraphs and should be marked as paragraphs. Things
    that aren't paragraphs, shouldn't be.

    Why do you think this is a sledgehammer? I'm not sure what you mean by
    "before and after line formatting", but if you're referring to the
    vertical margin between paragraphs, that's a normal way to arrange
    paragraphs. If you'd rather indent the first line of your paragraphs and
    not have a margin between them, use CSS to change their layout.
     
    Harlan Messinger, Jul 22, 2008
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Jim S

    Jim S Guest

    On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:38:45 -0400, Harlan Messinger wrote:

    > Jim S wrote:
    >> My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p> paragraph
    >> tags.
    >> Since the latter involves 'before and after' line formatting, it seems to
    >> be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
    >> I'm sure there must be a reason, but I can't see it.
    >> Explain please.

    >
    > Paragraphs are paragraphs and should be marked as paragraphs. Things
    > that aren't paragraphs, shouldn't be.
    >
    > Why do you think this is a sledgehammer? I'm not sure what you mean by
    > "before and after line formatting", but if you're referring to the
    > vertical margin between paragraphs, that's a normal way to arrange
    > paragraphs. If you'd rather indent the first line of your paragraphs and
    > not have a margin between them, use CSS to change their layout.


    What you say is exactly what I mean.
    My pages largely consist of photos with some text.
    Arranging this is simple if I add a <br> or two.
    If I use <p></p> then, unless I tell it not to do so, then I will get a
    'margin' between the photo and the text for example. That seems unnecessary
    to me. I use enough CSS as it is without adding more to get things NOT to
    do things I don't want.
    --
    Jim S
    Tyneside UK
    www.jimscott.co.uk
     
    Jim S, Jul 22, 2008
    #3
  4. Jim S

    Jim S Guest

    On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:38:11 +0200 (CEST), Neredbojias wrote:

    > On 22 Jul 2008, Jim S <> wrote:
    >
    >> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:38:45 -0400, Harlan Messinger wrote:
    >>
    >>> Jim S wrote:
    >>>> My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p>
    >>>> paragraph tags.
    >>>> Since the latter involves 'before and after' line formatting, it seems
    >>>> to be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
    >>>> I'm sure there must be a reason, but I can't see it.
    >>>> Explain please.
    >>>
    >>> Paragraphs are paragraphs and should be marked as paragraphs. Things
    >>> that aren't paragraphs, shouldn't be.
    >>>
    >>> Why do you think this is a sledgehammer? I'm not sure what you mean by
    >>> "before and after line formatting", but if you're referring to the
    >>> vertical margin between paragraphs, that's a normal way to arrange
    >>> paragraphs. If you'd rather indent the first line of your paragraphs
    >>> and not have a margin between them, use CSS to change their layout.

    >>
    >> What you say is exactly what I mean.
    >> My pages largely consist of photos with some text.
    >> Arranging this is simple if I add a <br> or two.
    >> If I use <p></p> then, unless I tell it not to do so, then I will get a
    >> 'margin' between the photo and the text for example. That seems
    >> unnecessary to me. I use enough CSS as it is without adding more to get
    >> things NOT to do things I don't want.

    >
    > Well, for instance, this:
    >
    > <body>
    >
    > <img src="bowl.jpg" alt="bowl">
    > <br>
    > <img src="bowel.jpg" alt="bowel">
    >
    > </body>
    >
    > ...is illegal markup whereas this:
    >
    > <body>
    >
    > <p><img src="bowl.jpg" alt="bowl">
    > <p><img src="bowel.jpg" alt="bowel">
    >
    > </body>
    >
    > ...isn't. (Under 4.01 strict, of course.) Sure, putting the whole first
    > section in a <div> can make it legal, but the tendency when using <br>s for
    > formatting is to mess up.


    I avoid <p> whenever possible and have no trouble validating 4.01 strict on
    472 pages.
    --
    Jim S
    Tyneside UK
    www.jimscott.co.uk
     
    Jim S, Jul 22, 2008
    #4
  5. Jim S wrote:
    > On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:38:11 +0200 (CEST), Neredbojias wrote:
    >
    >> On 22 Jul 2008, Jim S <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:38:45 -0400, Harlan Messinger wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Jim S wrote:
    >>>>> My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p>
    >>>>> paragraph tags.
    >>>>> Since the latter involves 'before and after' line formatting, it seems
    >>>>> to be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
    >>>>> I'm sure there must be a reason, but I can't see it.
    >>>>> Explain please.
    >>>> Paragraphs are paragraphs and should be marked as paragraphs. Things
    >>>> that aren't paragraphs, shouldn't be.
    >>>>
    >>>> Why do you think this is a sledgehammer? I'm not sure what you mean by
    >>>> "before and after line formatting", but if you're referring to the
    >>>> vertical margin between paragraphs, that's a normal way to arrange
    >>>> paragraphs. If you'd rather indent the first line of your paragraphs
    >>>> and not have a margin between them, use CSS to change their layout.
    >>> What you say is exactly what I mean.
    >>> My pages largely consist of photos with some text.
    >>> Arranging this is simple if I add a <br> or two.
    >>> If I use <p></p> then, unless I tell it not to do so, then I will get a
    >>> 'margin' between the photo and the text for example. That seems
    >>> unnecessary to me. I use enough CSS as it is without adding more to get
    >>> things NOT to do things I don't want.

    >> Well, for instance, this:
    >>
    >> <body>
    >>
    >> <img src="bowl.jpg" alt="bowl">
    >> <br>
    >> <img src="bowel.jpg" alt="bowel">
    >>
    >> </body>
    >>
    >> ...is illegal markup whereas this:
    >>
    >> <body>
    >>
    >> <p><img src="bowl.jpg" alt="bowl">
    >> <p><img src="bowel.jpg" alt="bowel">
    >>
    >> </body>
    >>
    >> ...isn't. (Under 4.01 strict, of course.) Sure, putting the whole first
    >> section in a <div> can make it legal, but the tendency when using <br>s for
    >> formatting is to mess up.

    >
    > I avoid <p> whenever possible and have no trouble validating 4.01 strict on
    > 472 pages.


    What you *asked* in your original post was why you are being advised to
    use p tags. The answer in two parts is that if you don't *have*
    paragraphs, then you *shouldn't* use p tags, but if you have paragraph
    then you should, because the whole point of HTML markup is to *describe
    your document*, while presentation details are addressed by CSS when you
    want them to differ from the default styles applied by browsers. If you
    don't care, do what you please, but that's the answer to your question.
    If you didn't want to know the answer, you shouldn't have asked. If you
    don't like the answer, well, it's still the answer.
     
    Harlan Messinger, Jul 22, 2008
    #5
  6. Jim S

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On 22 Jul, 15:26, Jim S <> wrote:
    > My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p> paragraph
    > tags.
    > Since the latter involves 'before and after' line formatting, it seems to
    > be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.


    Paragraphs are paragraphs, linebreaks are linebreaks. That's how it is
    (for a whole edifice of implied other pieces of software involved in
    "the web"), so you just don't get to change this. Use it how it ought
    to be used, or fight against it - but there's no "option to do it
    differently".

    <p> _could_ have been defined to mean "paragraph separator", but it
    wasn't. A choice. Made now, so live with it.

    If you want to understand _why_ all these things are how thhey are, at
    the cost of some fairly heavy reading, then dig out Hakon Lie's PhD
    thesis on the background to and design of CSS itself. Free download if
    you search, and well worth the effort of reading through it all.
     
    Andy Dingley, Jul 22, 2008
    #6
  7. Harlan Messinger wrote:

    > Jim S wrote:
    >> My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p> paragraph
    >> tags.
    >> Since the latter involves 'before and after' line formatting, it seems to
    >> be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
    >> I'm sure there must be a reason, but I can't see it.
    >> Explain please.

    >
    > Paragraphs are paragraphs and should be marked as paragraphs. Things
    > that aren't paragraphs, shouldn't be.


    I think if you look at Jim's...uh..."paragraph", above, you'll see why
    he's unsure of the concept. Even without consideration of markup, using
    plain text, his use of a newline after every period (full stop; sentence)
    shows confusion about the whole concept of the paragraph.

    > Why do you think this is a sledgehammer? I'm not sure what you mean by
    > "before and after line formatting", but if you're referring to the
    > vertical margin between paragraphs, that's a normal way to arrange
    > paragraphs. If you'd rather indent the first line of your paragraphs and
    > not have a margin between them, use CSS to change their layout.


    See above.


    --
    Blinky
    Killing all posts from Google Groups
    The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
    Need a new news feed? http://blinkynet.net/comp/newfeed.html
     
    Blinky the Shark, Jul 22, 2008
    #7
  8. Jim S

    Jim S Guest

    On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:49:54 -0700, Blinky the Shark wrote:

    > Harlan Messinger wrote:
    >
    >> Jim S wrote:
    >>> My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p> paragraph
    >>> tags.
    >>> Since the latter involves 'before and after' line formatting, it seems to
    >>> be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
    >>> I'm sure there must be a reason, but I can't see it.
    >>> Explain please.

    >>
    >> Paragraphs are paragraphs and should be marked as paragraphs. Things
    >> that aren't paragraphs, shouldn't be.

    >
    > I think if you look at Jim's...uh..."paragraph", above, you'll see why
    > he's unsure of the concept. Even without consideration of markup, using
    > plain text, his use of a newline after every period (full stop; sentence)
    > shows confusion about the whole concept of the paragraph.
    >
    >> Why do you think this is a sledgehammer? I'm not sure what you mean by
    >> "before and after line formatting", but if you're referring to the
    >> vertical margin between paragraphs, that's a normal way to arrange
    >> paragraphs. If you'd rather indent the first line of your paragraphs and
    >> not have a margin between them, use CSS to change their layout.

    >
    > See above.


    Blinky you are a tit.
    No-one writes paragraphs in usenet, because each newsreader displays text
    in its own peculiar way.
    I came here as usual for help, but it's very scarce.
    If my pages would be 'better' for the use of paragraphs then I might use
    them, but I was looking for someone to explain why. I can and do use
    paragraphs where continuous text is involved, but that is not where the
    criticism was directed.
    --
    Jim S
    Tyneside UK
    www.jimscott.co.uk
     
    Jim S, Jul 22, 2008
    #8
  9. Jim S wrote:
    > On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:49:54 -0700, Blinky the Shark wrote:
    >
    >> Harlan Messinger wrote:
    >>
    >>> Jim S wrote:
    >>>> My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p> paragraph
    >>>> tags.
    >>>> Since the latter involves 'before and after' line formatting, it seems to
    >>>> be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
    >>>> I'm sure there must be a reason, but I can't see it.
    >>>> Explain please.
    >>> Paragraphs are paragraphs and should be marked as paragraphs. Things
    >>> that aren't paragraphs, shouldn't be.

    >> I think if you look at Jim's...uh..."paragraph", above, you'll see why
    >> he's unsure of the concept. Even without consideration of markup, using
    >> plain text, his use of a newline after every period (full stop; sentence)
    >> shows confusion about the whole concept of the paragraph.
    >>
    >>> Why do you think this is a sledgehammer? I'm not sure what you mean by
    >>> "before and after line formatting", but if you're referring to the
    >>> vertical margin between paragraphs, that's a normal way to arrange
    >>> paragraphs. If you'd rather indent the first line of your paragraphs and
    >>> not have a margin between them, use CSS to change their layout.

    >> See above.

    >
    > Blinky you are a tit.
    > No-one writes paragraphs in usenet, because each newsreader displays text
    > in its own peculiar way.


    No one writes paragraphs in Usenet? What do you think my text beginning
    "Why do you think" and ending "change their layout" is? What do you
    think Blinky's text beginning "I think if" and ending "of the paragraph"
    is? Those are paragraphs.

    > I came here as usual for help, but it's very scarce.


    You came for the answer to a question. You were given the correct
    answer, and you chose to take it as a command against which you then
    rebelled and created a scene. Is it your intention to be a troll, or are
    you unaware that you're acting like one?

    > If my pages would be 'better' for the use of paragraphs then I might use
    > them, but I was looking for someone to explain why. I can and do use
    > paragraphs where continuous text is involved, but that is not where the
    > criticism was directed.


    If they *aren't* paragraphs, then don't use the friggin' p tags! I told
    you that twice already. What the hell is your problem?

    Maybe you're angry because no one here has explained to you why some
    other people have been telling you to use p tags in this particular
    instance. How the hell do we know? Ask them!
     
    Harlan Messinger, Jul 22, 2008
    #9
  10. Harlan Messinger wrote:
    > Jim S wrote:
    >> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:38:11 +0200 (CEST), Neredbojias wrote:
    >>
    >>> On 22 Jul 2008, Jim S <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:38:45 -0400, Harlan Messinger wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Jim S wrote:
    >>>>>> My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p>
    >>>>>> paragraph tags.

    <snip>
    >>>
    >>> <body>
    >>>
    >>> <img src="bowl.jpg" alt="bowl">
    >>> <br>
    >>> <img src="bowel.jpg" alt="bowel">
    >>>
    >>> </body>
    >>>
    >>> ...is illegal markup whereas this:
    >>>

    <snip>
    >>
    >> I avoid <p> whenever possible and have no trouble validating 4.01
    >> strict on
    >> 472 pages.

    > <snip>


    What would be an acceptable method of replicating the effect of what Jim
    has with now, a <br> after an <img scr=" .... ?
    Without using <p> </p> I mean :-}

    --
    Phil Kempster
    http://kempster.info
     
    Phil Kempster, Jul 22, 2008
    #10
  11. Phil Kempster wrote:
    > Harlan Messinger wrote:
    >> Jim S wrote:
    >>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:38:11 +0200 (CEST), Neredbojias wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> On 22 Jul 2008, Jim S <> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:38:45 -0400, Harlan Messinger wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Jim S wrote:
    >>>>>>> My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p>
    >>>>>>> paragraph tags.

    > <snip>
    >>>>
    >>>> <body>
    >>>>
    >>>> <img src="bowl.jpg" alt="bowl">
    >>>> <br>
    >>>> <img src="bowel.jpg" alt="bowel">
    >>>>
    >>>> </body>
    >>>>
    >>>> ...is illegal markup whereas this:
    >>>>

    > <snip>
    >>>
    >>> I avoid <p> whenever possible and have no trouble validating 4.01
    >>> strict on
    >>> 472 pages.

    >> <snip>

    >
    > What would be an acceptable method of replicating the effect of what Jim
    > has with now, a <br> after an <img scr=" .... ?
    > Without using <p> </p> I mean :-}
    >

    There isn't anything tremendously wrong with using <br> if the image is
    in some realistic way part of the information being conveyed. The
    semantically meaningless div tag can be used to make a chunk of code a
    block, and browsers by default add no margins to div elements..
     
    Harlan Messinger, Jul 22, 2008
    #11
  12. Jim S

    dorayme Guest

    In article <1nbk7idpvrzqe$>,
    Jim S <> wrote:

    > My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p> paragraph
    > tags.
    > Since the latter involves 'before and after' line formatting, it seems to
    > be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
    > I'm sure there must be a reason, but I can't see it.
    > Explain please.


    Short answer:

    You need to specify the exact case of the criticism. In some
    circumstances it would be using a sledgehammer to crack a pea, in others
    not.

    Longer answer:

    From my recollection of your pages, there are many pictures and
    thumbnails, captions and explanations of pics... So I will address just
    these two cases. One where there is a thumbnail or bigger and a caption.
    Two, where there is a pic and some longer explanation or reference to
    the picture.

    One, it is quite acceptable to use a br if you are using an inline image
    to place a few short words underneath the pic. If you do nothing, then
    the words will generally appear to the right and wrap only when space
    runs out - not what is wanted! You want a line break and that is what br
    does. It also has the natural advantage of making the words nice and
    close to the bottom of the pic, assuming line-height is not unusual. A
    look that is often wanted.

    But talking about looks, one advantage of enclosing the text, even in
    this particular circumstance in a suitable suitable element is that this
    element can often be more easily styled. The style can be changed in a
    style sheet to affect the whole site. You can have the text bold, or
    italic or small or big. You can also have the top margin smaller than
    the usual default (Browsers give p elements, for example, default
    margins that satisfy the usual needs of authors. Sometimes the author
    wants to use a paragraph without the usual gaps and in CSS this is
    easily accomplished).

    I am still on "one", the topic of the shortish caption. Above I
    mentioned the alternative to a simple br but did not mention a p
    specifically because it would be slightly uncomfortable to use a p for
    something that is not in the normal way a paragraph (a set of sentences,
    followed or preceded by others usually). In practice, it is not so easy
    to be so strict and a p would be acceptable imo. But if you wanted to be
    a bit stricter, you could use a div or even a span (depending on what
    quite you wanted).

    None of this stuff is laid down in heaven, you have to make decisions,
    how semantically strict you want to be, how such semanticity would be
    appreciated or totally wasted on the world and so on... <g>

    But the main point remains, you can just use br here for a caption.

    You can also style the words in spite of the br and no separate element
    for the words. (No, I am not contradicting what I said above) by
    attention to your circumstances. For example if your captions are in a
    context like:

    <div class="thumbbox>
    <img src="dummy.gif" alt="some">
    <br>
    a shortish caption
    </div>

    You can style

    ..thumbox img {display: block;}

    and this will stop the image being inline. The text will then
    automatically go to the next line.

    You can also style the text by the handle of the class:

    ..divbox {font-size: .9em; font-weight: bold; width:
    ....thumbnail-size...;}

    if there is no other text associated with such divs.

    Now to the second case where you have a picture and you truly want to
    say a few words, it is not a mere caption. Well, a paragraph looks to me
    to be the appropriate thing to use here. I better stop, had not meant to
    go on so with the above. <g>

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Jul 23, 2008
    #12
  13. Jim S

    dorayme Guest

    In article
    <>,
    dorayme <> wrote:

    > <div class="thumbbox>
    > <img src="dummy.gif" alt="some">
    > <br>
    > a shortish caption
    > </div>
    >
    > You can style
    >
    > .thumbox img {display: block;}


    read

    ..thumbbox img {display: block;}

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Jul 23, 2008
    #13
  14. Jim S

    Jim S Guest

    On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:24:59 +1000, dorayme wrote:

    > In article <1nbk7idpvrzqe$>,
    > Jim S <> wrote:
    >
    >> My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p> paragraph
    >> tags.
    >> Since the latter involves 'before and after' line formatting, it seems to
    >> be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
    >> I'm sure there must be a reason, but I can't see it.
    >> Explain please.

    >
    > Short answer:
    >
    > You need to specify the exact case of the criticism. In some
    > circumstances it would be using a sledgehammer to crack a pea, in others
    > not.
    >
    > Longer answer:
    >
    > From my recollection of your pages, there are many pictures and
    > thumbnails, captions and explanations of pics... So I will address just
    > these two cases. One where there is a thumbnail or bigger and a caption.
    > Two, where there is a pic and some longer explanation or reference to
    > the picture.
    >
    > One, it is quite acceptable to use a br if you are using an inline image
    > to place a few short words underneath the pic. If you do nothing, then
    > the words will generally appear to the right and wrap only when space
    > runs out - not what is wanted! You want a line break and that is what br
    > does. It also has the natural advantage of making the words nice and
    > close to the bottom of the pic, assuming line-height is not unusual. A
    > look that is often wanted.
    >
    > But talking about looks, one advantage of enclosing the text, even in
    > this particular circumstance in a suitable suitable element is that this
    > element can often be more easily styled. The style can be changed in a
    > style sheet to affect the whole site. You can have the text bold, or
    > italic or small or big. You can also have the top margin smaller than
    > the usual default (Browsers give p elements, for example, default
    > margins that satisfy the usual needs of authors. Sometimes the author
    > wants to use a paragraph without the usual gaps and in CSS this is
    > easily accomplished).
    >
    > I am still on "one", the topic of the shortish caption. Above I
    > mentioned the alternative to a simple br but did not mention a p
    > specifically because it would be slightly uncomfortable to use a p for
    > something that is not in the normal way a paragraph (a set of sentences,
    > followed or preceded by others usually). In practice, it is not so easy
    > to be so strict and a p would be acceptable imo. But if you wanted to be
    > a bit stricter, you could use a div or even a span (depending on what
    > quite you wanted).
    >
    > None of this stuff is laid down in heaven, you have to make decisions,
    > how semantically strict you want to be, how such semanticity would be
    > appreciated or totally wasted on the world and so on... <g>
    >
    > But the main point remains, you can just use br here for a caption.
    >
    > You can also style the words in spite of the br and no separate element
    > for the words. (No, I am not contradicting what I said above) by
    > attention to your circumstances. For example if your captions are in a
    > context like:
    >
    > <div class="thumbbox>
    > <img src="dummy.gif" alt="some">
    > <br>
    > a shortish caption
    > </div>
    >
    > You can style
    >
    > .thumbox img {display: block;}
    >
    > and this will stop the image being inline. The text will then
    > automatically go to the next line.
    >
    > You can also style the text by the handle of the class:
    >
    > .divbox {font-size: .9em; font-weight: bold; width:
    > ...thumbnail-size...;}
    >
    > if there is no other text associated with such divs.
    >
    > Now to the second case where you have a picture and you truly want to
    > say a few words, it is not a mere caption. Well, a paragraph looks to me
    > to be the appropriate thing to use here. I better stop, had not meant to
    > go on so with the above. <g>


    Thanks again friend.
    I cannot remember whether it was you or someone else, helping me some time
    ago and I cannot find the article in question, but I was in the process of
    ensuring that my pages conformed to 4.01 strict. I remember digging my
    heels in over my use of tables as placeholders, but whoever it was, said
    something to the effect that my repeated use of <br> instead of <p></p> was
    against the 'spirit' what I had managed to achieve at that point.
    --
    Jim S
    Tyneside UK
    www.jimscott.co.uk
     
    Jim S, Jul 23, 2008
    #14
  15. Jim S

    richard Guest

    On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:26:16 +0100, Jim S <> wrote:

    >My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p> paragraph
    >tags.
    >Since the latter involves 'before and after' line formatting, it seems to
    >be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
    >I'm sure there must be a reason, but I can't see it.
    >Explain please.


    The way I see it, a paragraph tag formats text in a certain way while
    a break merely injects a blank line.
    I would just as rather put the text in a division and CSS the division
    the way I want to show it. If I want to use two or more br's that's my
    damn business. Then we could go back to the old ways and include a
    spacer.gif.
    For those bitching and whining about the use of a carriage return
    after every frickin period, I say, horsehockey!
    Yes sir.
    Horsehockey!
    If ya don't like it, tough.
     
    richard, Jul 23, 2008
    #15
  16. Jim S wrote:

    > On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:49:54 -0700, Blinky the Shark wrote:
    >
    >> Harlan Messinger wrote:
    >>
    >>> Jim S wrote:
    >>>> My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p> paragraph
    >>>> tags.
    >>>> Since the latter involves 'before and after' line formatting, it seems to
    >>>> be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
    >>>> I'm sure there must be a reason, but I can't see it.
    >>>> Explain please.
    >>>
    >>> Paragraphs are paragraphs and should be marked as paragraphs. Things
    >>> that aren't paragraphs, shouldn't be.

    >>
    >> I think if you look at Jim's...uh..."paragraph", above, you'll see why
    >> he's unsure of the concept. Even without consideration of markup, using
    >> plain text, his use of a newline after every period (full stop; sentence)
    >> shows confusion about the whole concept of the paragraph.
    >>
    >>> Why do you think this is a sledgehammer? I'm not sure what you mean by
    >>> "before and after line formatting", but if you're referring to the
    >>> vertical margin between paragraphs, that's a normal way to arrange
    >>> paragraphs. If you'd rather indent the first line of your paragraphs and
    >>> not have a margin between them, use CSS to change their layout.

    >>
    >> See above.

    >
    > Blinky you are a tit.


    That's an interesting way of saying you'd like to suck me. :)

    I'll pass, though.


    --
    Blinky
    Killing all posts from Google Groups
    The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
    Need a new news feed? http://blinkynet.net/comp/newfeed.html
     
    Blinky the Shark, Jul 23, 2008
    #16
  17. richard wrote:

    > On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:26:16 +0100, Jim S <> wrote:
    >
    >>My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p> paragraph
    >>tags.
    >>Since the latter involves 'before and after' line formatting, it seems to
    >>be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
    >>I'm sure there must be a reason, but I can't see it.
    >>Explain please.

    >
    > The way I see it, a paragraph tag formats text in a certain way while
    > a break merely injects a blank line.
    > I would just as rather put the text in a division and CSS the division
    > the way I want to show it. If I want to use two or more br's that's my
    > damn business. Then we could go back to the old ways and include a
    > spacer.gif.
    > For those bitching and whining about the use of a carriage return
    > after every frickin period, I say, horsehockey!
    > Yes sir.
    > Horsehockey!
    > If ya don't like it, tough.


    Hey, it doesn't make *us* look st00pid.


    --
    Blinky
    Killing all posts from Google Groups
    The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
    Need a new news feed? http://blinkynet.net/comp/newfeed.html
     
    Blinky the Shark, Jul 23, 2008
    #17
  18. Jim S

    richard Guest

    On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:13:03 -0700, Blinky the Shark
    <> wrote:

    >richard wrote:
    >
    >> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:26:16 +0100, Jim S <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p> paragraph
    >>>tags.
    >>>Since the latter involves 'before and after' line formatting, it seems to
    >>>be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
    >>>I'm sure there must be a reason, but I can't see it.
    >>>Explain please.

    >>
    >> The way I see it, a paragraph tag formats text in a certain way while
    >> a break merely injects a blank line.
    >> I would just as rather put the text in a division and CSS the division
    >> the way I want to show it. If I want to use two or more br's that's my
    >> damn business. Then we could go back to the old ways and include a
    >> spacer.gif.
    >> For those bitching and whining about the use of a carriage return
    >> after every frickin period, I say, horsehockey!
    >> Yes sir.
    >> Horsehockey!
    >> If ya don't like it, tough.

    >
    >Hey, it doesn't make *us* look st00pid.


    look here cap'n dude, like I am the master at butchering the frickin
    queens english ya knows. It takes a lot of hard work resembling that
    remark ya frickin frootcake.
    An intelligent man can play the part of a fool, but a fool can never
    play the role of an intelligent man.
    Oh and please do blame it all on my college preparing high school
    english teachers ok.
     
    richard, Jul 23, 2008
    #18
  19. Jim S

    richard Guest

    On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:34:53 -0400, Harlan Messinger
    <> wrote:

    >Jim S wrote:
    >> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:49:54 -0700, Blinky the Shark wrote:
    >>
    >>> Harlan Messinger wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Jim S wrote:
    >>>>> My use of the <br> tag has been criticised in favour of <p></p> paragraph
    >>>>> tags.
    >>>>> Since the latter involves 'before and after' line formatting, it seems to
    >>>>> be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
    >>>>> I'm sure there must be a reason, but I can't see it.
    >>>>> Explain please.
    >>>> Paragraphs are paragraphs and should be marked as paragraphs. Things
    >>>> that aren't paragraphs, shouldn't be.
    >>> I think if you look at Jim's...uh..."paragraph", above, you'll see why
    >>> he's unsure of the concept. Even without consideration of markup, using
    >>> plain text, his use of a newline after every period (full stop; sentence)
    >>> shows confusion about the whole concept of the paragraph.
    >>>
    >>>> Why do you think this is a sledgehammer? I'm not sure what you mean by
    >>>> "before and after line formatting", but if you're referring to the
    >>>> vertical margin between paragraphs, that's a normal way to arrange
    >>>> paragraphs. If you'd rather indent the first line of your paragraphs and
    >>>> not have a margin between them, use CSS to change their layout.
    >>> See above.

    >>
    >> Blinky you are a tit.
    >> No-one writes paragraphs in usenet, because each newsreader displays text
    >> in its own peculiar way.

    >
    >No one writes paragraphs in Usenet? What do you think my text beginning
    >"Why do you think" and ending "change their layout" is? What do you
    >think Blinky's text beginning "I think if" and ending "of the paragraph"
    > is? Those are paragraphs.
    >
    >> I came here as usual for help, but it's very scarce.

    >
    >You came for the answer to a question. You were given the correct
    >answer, and you chose to take it as a command against which you then
    >rebelled and created a scene. Is it your intention to be a troll, or are
    >you unaware that you're acting like one?
    >
    >> If my pages would be 'better' for the use of paragraphs then I might use
    >> them, but I was looking for someone to explain why. I can and do use
    >> paragraphs where continuous text is involved, but that is not where the
    >> criticism was directed.

    >
    >If they *aren't* paragraphs, then don't use the friggin' p tags! I told
    >you that twice already. What the hell is your problem?
    >
    >Maybe you're angry because no one here has explained to you why some
    >other people have been telling you to use p tags in this particular
    >instance. How the hell do we know? Ask them!


    <p>
    Within the context of the English journalistic communication area, a
    paragraph is supposed to be a single train of thought. Ergo, if my
    train of thought passes on to a second sub-topic, then I create a
    second paragraph. Of which, both paragraphs could all be encompassed
    within one single <p> tag. As demonstrated by the use of <p></p> tags
    within this post.

    However, in the practices of html and web site presentation, a
    paragraph is actually a formatted area of text. Whether or not that
    area of text is actually in line with being the definition of a
    paragraph.

    Whereas, a break tag would be used to seperate two paragraphs for
    easier reading.
    </p>
     
    richard, Jul 23, 2008
    #19
  20. On 2008-07-23, richard wrote:
    ....
    ><p>
    > Within the context of the English journalistic communication area, a
    > paragraph is supposed to be a single train of thought. Ergo, if my
    > train of thought passes on to a second sub-topic, then I create a
    > second paragraph. Of which, both paragraphs could all be encompassed
    > within one single <p> tag. As demonstrated by the use of <p></p> tags
    > within this post.
    >
    > However, in the practices of html and web site presentation, a
    > paragraph is actually a formatted area of text. Whether or not that
    > area of text is actually in line with being the definition of a
    > paragraph.
    >
    > Whereas, a break tag would be used to seperate two paragraphs for
    > easier reading.
    ></p>


    Since <p> is for paragraph, not paragraphs, your usage is
    illogical and contrary to semantic markup.

    --
    Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://Woodbine-Gerrard.com>
    ===================================================================
    Author:
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
     
    Chris F.A. Johnson, Jul 23, 2008
    #20
    1. Advertising

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