perl should be improved and perl6

[Gordon Etly]

[...]

As someone else pointed out, in many other groups centered around a
particular programming language, no one pays this kind of attention
of people like your self seem to.

Its a marker of if your inside the group of perl culture or out of
it. Its a short cut to find out if you have read and understood the
FAQ.

But it's a rather indicator. What is someone wants to be a little

Should be: "But it's a rather poor indicator. What if someone"

different, even after having read the FAQ? What if they typed 'man
perl' or 'perldoc perl' early on in their Perl life and just went
with the first few lines:

$ perldoc perl | head -n 10
PERL(1) User Contributed Perl Documentation
PERL(1)
^^^^


NAME
perl - Practical Extraction and Report Language
^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This alone should make seeing "PERL" not surprising, weather one has
read the FAQ or not. If various regulars can be different in their own
way, it's rather hypocritical to bare down on not-so-regular people
(or are they... many people might actually be //regular readers//) in
this manner.

[...]

If someone is a good programmer with the Perl language, does
it really make a difference how they spell it as long as they know
what they are doing?

Because reading the FAQ, paying attention to detail and understanding
what people tell them are aspects of knowing how to program in Perl.

No, you can judge someone purely on grounds like that. If someone
wants to write "PERL", whether based on the man/perldoc page for
"perl", that should be their choice. It is unfair to assume they are
'unworthy' simply because they want to me a little different. Again,
some well known members of this group do things differently as well
(Abigail's non-standard quoting, Uri's refusal to properly use the
shift key and such) yet it's a crime for others to be different in
more or less the same way?

You will find that people don't care about the spelling of random
words, its only when people start talking about Perl specific words
does it start to mattor.

Yes, but "PERL" and "Practical Extraction and Report Language" come
fro mthe man/perldoc page for "perl", how can one get more official
then something's own man page? Are you saying the FAQ for this group,
a user contributed document, as valvuable as it may be, carries more
weight then Perl's own man page?

 

[Gordon Etly]

Dr.Ruud wrote:
jm schreef:

perl [...] is poorly typed

By you? (Did you mean Perl by the way?)

Honestly, you know full well he was talking about the programming
language that pertains to this here news group, so feign
ignorance? I mean why is this even such an issue? Other places
where people talk about programming languages don't seem to care
if it's all caps, first only capitalized, or all lowercase, or
what have you. I've seen Java, java, and JAVA, cpp, C++, c++, c,
C, python, PYTHON, cobol, Cobol, COBOL, and the list goes on.

So why make such a stink about something so damn trivial?

Programming requires attention to detail. Well, good programming
does, anyway.

Yes, when _programming_, not with geenral petty conversations, such
responses as "it's Perl not perl or PERL" serve NO PURPOSE. Arguably
neither does this leg of the thread, but that because people like you
refuse to pull out your heads for some fresh air.

In my experience, people who cannot speak precisely cannot program
precisely. They pick up bad habits.

And just how does one distinguish between "perl", "Perl", and "PERL"
when //speaking// ?

Go type 'perldoc perl' and you will see that any of those forms is
perfectly valid. Are you saying one cannot be considered "precise" by
going according to Perl's own documentation?!? Does this group's FAQ, as
valuable as it may be, hold more weight then Perl's own docs/man-page?

 

[Andrew DeFaria]

_t_hat is very wrong. _s_ee my other post about this. _p_erl was never
originally an acronym and you can ask _l_arry. _h_mm, maybe _i_ should
the next time _i_ have dinner with him.

Hmmm... You either have no regard for proper capitalization of the
English language, lack a shift key or are just plain lazy. The above
underlined letters tell you all you need to know...

 

[Andrew DeFaria]

VR> Uri Guttman wrote:

VR> I'm a regular reader.

not a regular contributor. that downgrades your comments here. by a lot.

You did not request that he be a regular contributor - just a regular.
Shall we now condemn him for *your *ambiguity?

VR> 2) I'm not sure you should be preaching about using proper grammar
when
VR> you don't even bother to capitalize the first letter of your
sentences.

WELL I CAN HIT THE SHIFT KEY IF YOU WANT!!!

Ah, moron, did you not understand his point? It wasn't really that
difficult to comprehend. Stop being obtuse!

as for my casing, that is your problem. i choose to case my postings
this way. my documentation, POD, writing, teaching, slides are all
cased as others want them.

So let me get this straight... You *choose* to be a pompous little prick
and consciously want to lowercase everything even though you know it's
wrong to what? Attract more nerdy friends?!? Great job there ace!

 

[Andrew DeFaria]

because it is the newer users who need to learn the difference. saying
'perl' or 'PERL' has a bug are very different. being technically
accurate is a critical skill to a coder so using the correct name for
the language vs the compiler vs a backronym is important. if a perl
hacker wannabe can't get that right, they need to be told about it. i
have the same issue when i see jobs for 'PERL'. that is important to
me as i work in the job placement field and would never use that form.

You work in the "job placement field"?!? What are you a recruiter?

Total bull! You have people coming in here asking questions about how
perl "throws" a message to the "monitor"! Being technically accurate
will never, I repeat - NEVER be something you'll see a beginner be
proficient at! *Saying* "perl" or "PERL" means nothing - they *sound*
the same. They are typed differently. And quite frankly the case is
totally unimportant compared to teaching noobies the difference between
"throwing" a message on a "monitor" and actually printing to stdout.

You're argument is vacuous and your stance is nothing more than
argumentative.

 

[Andrew DeFaria]

Should be: "But it's a rather poor indicator. What if someone"

Since we're in correcting mode... This should be 'This alone should make
seeing "PERL" not surprising, _whether_ one has read the FAQ or not.' ;-)
--
Andrew DeFaria <http://defaria.com>
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and
willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then
why call him God?

 

[John Bokma]

Dr.Ruud wrote:
jm schreef:

perl [...] is poorly typed

By you? (Did you mean Perl by the way?)

Honestly, you know full well he was talking about the programming
language that pertains to this here news group, so feign ignorance?
I mean why is this even such an issue? Other places where people
talk about programming languages don't seem to care if it's all
caps,

There are already plenty of people who think PERL is an acronym (it's
not), so "we" like to avoid PERL.

Moreover, Perl is the programming language, and perl is the
executable, hence there is a good reason to be case sensitive. Hence,
perl [...] is poorly typed seems to refer to the executable, hence
Dr. Ruud's question.

As someone else pointed out, in many other groups centered around a
particular programming language, no one pays this kind of attention of
people like your self seem to.

I am sure that in a Java related group people will post remarks if
someone mixes up javac with java (executables).

Also, I am sure that in C related groups people start to ask questions
if you constantly talk about x is an integer and that you have problems
with it.

Second, why is it people like yourself
can never give a straight answer as to why it is of such high
importance?

Because programming is about being very specific and exact. Details do
matter. Calling a warning and error is another classic one (or vice
versa), or just stating that "my PERL program crashed, please help".

If someone is a good programmer with the Perl language, does
it really make a difference how they spell it as long as they know
what they are doing?

IMO a good Perl programmer knows the difference between Perl and perl,
and knows when to use which one.

I mean you have people like Abigail who use their own
quote characters, Uri who can't use a bloody shift key, etc,

Yes, and me, who has English as a second language. As long as all those
people don't write ambiguous statements related with the problem/answer,
I don't have a problem with it.

and you're
worried about how some random bloke cases the word/term Perl?

Yes. Look at the subject: perl should be improved. I read that as: the
perl executable should be improved. I have very little to say on that
subject (I am not a perl programmer/hacker)

However, if the subject is: Perl should be improved, I might like to
read it, because, as a Perl programmer, I have my own ideas.

 

[John Bokma]

Uri avoids the shift key for one reason or another. Regs here don't
mistake Uri for a newbie, and hence read over this.

The problem with people who use PERL, or perl if they mean Perl, and vice
versa, often are newbies. They increase their change of being taken
serious by getting it right. Or they might be able to get away with it, if
other regs recognize them as someone who knows their Perl :-D.

 

[John Bokma]

Attachment decoded: text-html-3

Oops, you just lost any credebility :-D

 

[John Bokma]

There is no real difference.

Yes there is. I can be hired as a Perl programmer, but if you are
looking for a perl programmer, I have to turn your project down.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=PERL

The spelling "Perl" is preferred over the older "PERL" (even though
some explain the language's name as originating in the acronym for
"Practical Extraction and Report Language"). The program that
interprets/compiles Perl code is called "perl", typically
"/usr/local/bin/perl" or "/usr/bin/perl".

Who do you trust more? People who make a living working with Perl on a
daily basis, who have contributed to the language in one way or another,
or some dictionary entry?

That's a very poor measuring stick.

Based on my experience of quite some years: *anyone* I have seen
constantly refering to Perl as PERL had either never programmed a single
line in Perl, or was an absolute newbie.

Seems also hypocritical, considering
some of the more well known people in this group are known for doing
thing differently (Abigail for her interesting alternate forms of
quoting in replies,

Yes, used to annoy me as well. But the alternate quoting has nothing to
do with Perl or perl (heh, or a lot ;-) ), and the value of the content
of *his* [1] posts severely outweights the quoting.

Uri for his inability to use the shift key, and so
forth),

Yeah, those people who have English as their second lenguage :-D.

to judge some random bloke who may also choose to be different.

If his piece was well written, nobody would have made a point of his
misspelling of Perl.

 

[Andrew DeFaria]

Oops, you just lost any credebility :-D

What a silly argument!

And you never had any credebility (sic) to start with!

ROTFLMAO, you guys bitch about "perl" vs. "Perl" saying that one must
pay attention to detail, yet you fail to recognize the little detail of
properly capitalizing sentences and proper names, etc. and then are
paying so much attention to detail that you can't even spell credibility
correctly! I mean was it not you John who just got finished saying:
"Because programming is about being very specific and exact. Details do
matter."???

And what's worse, you probably believe that somehow gives you
credibility!!!!

 

[John Bokma]

You might want to fix TB to post only in plain text instead of attaching a
HTML version as well. (Moreover, you might want to use a fixed font while
viewing Usenet postings (unless you already do), it makes some of the code
snippets a bit easier on the eye and doesn't break ASCII art).

 

[Andrew DeFaria]

Because programming is about being very specific and exact. Details do
matter.

Exactly! Because otherwise you'll lose credebility! I know. John said
so! ;-)

Yes, and me, who has English as a second language.

Bogus excuse. You've been told what is correct and you (well maybe not
you John but Abigail and Uri for sure) don't care and continue to do the
wrong thing. A word to the wise is sufficient as they say. Either you
are not wise or you purposely choose not to conform. If so then you are
in no position to lecture somebody else regarding this.

As long as all those people don't write ambiguous statements related
with the problem/answer, I don't have a problem with it.

Yes but others do have a problem with it.

Yes. Look at the subject: perl should be improved. I read that as: the
perl executable should be improved. I have very little to say on that
subject (I am not a perl programmer/hacker)

You have been told that that's the incorrect interpretation. Now what
are you gonna do? Stubbornly insist that it is? And how is that productive?
--
Andrew DeFaria <http://defaria.com>
As she lay there dozing next to me, one voice inside my head kept
saying, "Relax... you are not the first doctor to sleep with one of his
patients," but another kept reminding me, "Howard, you are a
veterinarian." - Roger Matthews

 

[Andrew DeFaria]

You might want to fix TB to post only in plain text instead of
attaching a HTML version as well.

Thanks but no thanks. There is nothing to "fix". This is by design.

(Moreover, you might want to use a fixed font while viewing Usenet
postings (unless you already do), it makes some of the code snippets a
bit easier on the eye and doesn't break ASCII art).

I've given up even a casual interest in ASCII art I'd say back in the
70's son...

 

[John Bokma]

This presents us with a serious problem. When we speak,

this is Usenet. If I read your posting aloud here on the street, most
people are not able to understand it. Should we now start to post in
Spanish?

 

[John Bokma]

Thanks but no thanks. There is nothing to "fix". This is by design.

You can turn it off in TB. If you keep posting with HTML attachements,
which have no place on Usenet, you will notice that soon few people if at
all will reply to your posts.

[..]

I've given up even a casual interest in ASCII art I'd say back in the
70's son...

It shows.

Anyway, ASCII art is now and then used in technical groups to illustrate
something.

 

[John Bokma]

And you never had any credebility (sic) to start with!

^^^
[sic]

;-)

 

[John W. Krahn]

John Bokma wrote: ...
Moreover, Perl is the programming language, and perl is the
executable, hence there is a good reason to be case sensitive.
Hence, perl [...] is poorly typed seems to refer to the
executable, hence Dr. Ruud's question.
As someone else pointed out, in many other groups centered around
a particular programming language, no one pays this kind of
attention of people like your self seem to.

Have you tried posting a question about a non-existence language
called C/C++ in comp.lang.c?

Yes I have. They are related languages. C++ is based on C. Most people
seem to understand that, while also understanding what sets them apart.

Think of the distinction between Perl and perl a clue-meter.

But that is just wrong. If the man/perldoc page for "perl" reads like,


$ perldoc perl | head -n 10
PERL(1) User Contributed Perl Documentation PERL(1)
^^^^

Are you saying that the roff(7) formatting of a header implies something?



John

 

[Andrew DeFaria]

this is Usenet. If I read your posting aloud here on the street, most
people are not able to understand it. Should we now start to post in
Spanish?

Did you have a point here? Or are you just continuing your streak of
being argumentative merely for arguments sake?

 

[Andrew DeFaria]

You can turn it off in TB.

What portion of "by design" are you having difficulty understanding?
Perhaps I could help you out!

If you keep posting with HTML attachements, which have no place on
Usenet, you will notice that soon few people if at all will reply to
your posts.

I've been doing so for years son and let me tell you - this has not been
the case. Only pinheads who make arbitrary distinctions between a "Word"
and a "word" tend to complain and eventually submit (because really, you
have no other choice). So my design is having exactly the effect I had
hoped for.

[..]

I've given up even a casual interest in ASCII art I'd say back in the
70's son...

It shows.

Indeed! It shows that I have a lot more taste than to admire ASCII
"art". That's for geeks who have never quite graduated from DOS and
who's only instrument of expression appears to be a single colored
crayon. Did your mommy let you out to play today there John?

Anyway, ASCII art is now and then used in technical groups to
illustrate something.

Yes, for those less creative people... I understand...