PHP and ASP why the difference?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Travis Newbury, Jul 17, 2005.

  1. I am working with PHP and MySQL for a few pet projects just because I
    get an easy/powerful server language and pretty powerful database for
    free. But it got my curiosity up and I decided to search the main job
    boards to see what the demand for PHP developers is.

    I was a little surprised to find that there was better than 10 to 1
    difference in PHP position vs ASP/ASP.net positions. Also the salary
    for PHP positions was about (generally) 25% less than ASP positions.
    Please note I am NOT asking or implying that one is better than the
    other!! I am just wondering why you think there is such a difference in
    the (US) job market?

    ps. If your reply is some kind of flame of one or the other languages
    save us all some time and don't bother replying.
    --
    -=tn=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Jul 17, 2005
    #1
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  2. Travis Newbury

    Dylan Parry Guest

    Using a pointed stick and pebbles, Travis Newbury scraped:
    > I am just wondering why you think there is such a difference in the
    > (US) job market?


    I would have thought it was because ASP and .NET are buzz words as far
    as employers are concerned, whereas PHP is something that when heard by
    most employers is more likely to get a response similar to "huh?"

    --
    Dylan Parry
    http://webpageworkshop.co.uk -- FREE Web tutorials and references
     
    Dylan Parry, Jul 17, 2005
    #2
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  3. "Dylan Parry" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Using a pointed stick and pebbles, Travis Newbury scraped:
    >> I am just wondering why you think there is such a difference in the
    >> (US) job market?

    >
    > I would have thought it was because ASP and .NET are buzz words as far
    > as employers are concerned, whereas PHP is something that when heard by
    > most employers is more likely to get a response similar to "huh?"



    "Dylan Parry" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Using a pointed stick and pebbles, Travis Newbury scraped:
    >> I am just wondering why you think there is such a difference in the
    >> (US) job market?

    >
    > I would have thought it was because ASP and .NET are buzz words as far
    > as employers are concerned, whereas PHP is something that when heard by
    > most employers is more likely to get a response similar to "huh?"


    Pretty much what I was going to say. Also, Microsoft spends a gazillion
    dollars each year on marketing.

    --Tina

    --
    http://www.AxisHOST.com - Serving the web since 1997
    Very Generous Cpanel Hosting & Fully Managed Servers
    Three month FREE hosting trial - discount code: axishost
     
    Tina - AxisHOST, Inc., Jul 17, 2005
    #3
  4. Travis Newbury

    Greg N. Guest

    Dylan Parry wrote:

    > I would have thought it was because ASP and .NET are buzz words as far
    > as employers are concerned, whereas PHP is something that when heard by
    > most employers is more likely to get a response similar to "huh?"


    I'd guess the answer is the other way round, sortof.

    PHP is so vastly popular that PHP programmers are easy to find. ASP has
    not been abywhere near as successful, hence, you have to look harder
    (and pay better) to get a good ASP programmer.
     
    Greg N., Jul 17, 2005
    #4
  5. Travis Newbury

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:02:40 -0400, Travis Newbury
    <> wrote:

    >I was a little surprised to find that there was better than 10 to 1
    >difference in PHP position vs ASP/ASP.net positions.


    Here in the UK there's a huge segregation in the markets for the two
    skills.

    ASP .NET - fair bit of demand.

    ASP (old style) - pretty much dead now.

    PHP - No demand at all, if you look at a site like JobServe (the main
    one)

    As far as I can tell, there's more demand for PHP people and more PHP
    being done, _but_ the large companies that recruit through agencies, and
    the agencies that recruit through JobServe etc. just aren't using PHP.
    The PHP work that is happening is one-man-and-dog outfits, or just a
    little bigger. These mainly recruit through word of mouth.

    As far as commercial work goes for bug projects, it's pretty much all
    Java. Yet looking in here, c.i.w.a.h and uk.n.w.a there seems to be
    almost no-one else using Java.
     
    Andy Dingley, Jul 17, 2005
    #5
  6. Dylan Parry wrote:
    > Using a pointed stick and pebbles, Travis Newbury scraped:
    >> I am just wondering why you think there is such a difference in the
    >> (US) job market?

    > I would have thought it was because ASP and .NET are buzz words as far
    > as employers are concerned, whereas PHP is something that when heard by
    > most employers is more likely to get a response similar to "huh?"


    I am leaning in the same direction. I think because PHP is homegrown
    (open source) that there is less of an organized promotion of it
    compared to Microsoft and ASP/.net
    >



    --
    -=tn=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Jul 17, 2005
    #6
  7. Greg N. wrote:
    > Dylan Parry wrote:
    >> I would have thought it was because ASP and .NET are buzz words as far
    >> as employers are concerned, whereas PHP is something that when heard by
    >> most employers is more likely to get a response similar to "huh?"

    > I'd guess the answer is the other way round, sortof.
    > PHP is so vastly popular that PHP programmers are easy to find. ASP has
    > not been abywhere near as successful, hence, you have to look harder
    > (and pay better) to get a good ASP programmer.


    But how would that account for the obvious lack of positions being
    offered with PHP (as compared to ASP)?


    --
    -=tn=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Jul 17, 2005
    #7
  8. Travis Newbury wrote:

    > But how would that account for the obvious lack of positions being
    > offered with PHP (as compared to ASP)?


    The people who make those types of decisions are often the type who don't
    really understand either, but know that "Nobody was ever fired for choosing
    Microsoft"

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
     
    David Dorward, Jul 17, 2005
    #8
  9. Travis Newbury

    SpaceGirl Guest

    Dylan Parry wrote:
    > Using a pointed stick and pebbles, Travis Newbury scraped:
    >
    >> I am just wondering why you think there is such a difference in the
    >> (US) job market?

    >
    >
    > I would have thought it was because ASP and .NET are buzz words as far
    > as employers are concerned, whereas PHP is something that when heard by
    > most employers is more likely to get a response similar to "huh?"
    >


    Not to mention PHP is pretty much only a "web" language, while ASP.Net
    is part of a suite of related languages that can be used for web,
    applications, hardware etc etc etc...

    Also, .Net being a "fixed" standard (it's not open source, there are
    only a few versions of it), you can easily expect a level of expertese
    from a .net programmer verses any other open language (js, php etc).

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
    # this post (c) Miranda Thomas 2005
    # explicitly no permission given to Forum4Designers
    # to duplicate this post.
     
    SpaceGirl, Jul 17, 2005
    #9
  10. Travis Newbury

    SpaceGirl Guest

    Andy Dingley wrote:
    > On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:02:40 -0400, Travis Newbury
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I was a little surprised to find that there was better than 10 to 1
    >>difference in PHP position vs ASP/ASP.net positions.

    >
    >
    > Here in the UK there's a huge segregation in the markets for the two
    > skills.
    >
    > ASP .NET - fair bit of demand.
    >
    > ASP (old style) - pretty much dead now.
    >
    > PHP - No demand at all, if you look at a site like JobServe (the main
    > one)
    >
    > As far as I can tell, there's more demand for PHP people and more PHP
    > being done, _but_ the large companies that recruit through agencies, and
    > the agencies that recruit through JobServe etc. just aren't using PHP.
    > The PHP work that is happening is one-man-and-dog outfits, or just a
    > little bigger. These mainly recruit through word of mouth.
    >
    > As far as commercial work goes for bug projects, it's pretty much all
    > Java. Yet looking in here, c.i.w.a.h and uk.n.w.a there seems to be
    > almost no-one else using Java.
    >


    PHP is not standards based, and I've noticed a BIG backlash against
    OpenSource in the big companies I've been dealing with recently. While
    IT people dont much like MS, they seem to hate OpenSource even more. I'm
    not sure why - it could be because there is so much hype around
    OpenSource stuff, but when it comes down to actual production if you
    have to support and document projects, or keep projects simple, .Net and
    the ilk are a lot easier to manage.

    ?? I'm not really a programmer I suppose, although I have noticed a LOT
    of C#.net and ASP.net jobs over the last year. I dont recall any for PHP.

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
    # this post (c) Miranda Thomas 2005
    # explicitly no permission given to Forum4Designers
    # to duplicate this post.
     
    SpaceGirl, Jul 17, 2005
    #10
  11. SpaceGirl wrote:

    > Not to mention PHP is pretty much only a "web" language,


    http://gtk.php.net/
    http://uk.php.net/features.commandline

    > Also, .Net being a "fixed" standard (it's not open source, there are
    > only a few versions of it), you can easily expect a level of expertese
    > from a .net programmer verses any other open language (js, php etc).


    Err... frankly, that's rubbish. Being open source with an open development
    process just means (in practical terms) that anyone can contribute. You
    still end up with a stable API at the end of it.

    (OK, an open source project can be forked - but then people need a
    compelling reason to switch to the forked version - and one or the other of
    the versions will usually die. Usually that one is the fork after failing
    to attract more then two developers. When a fork is successful, its usually
    due to something being very wrong with the original. If something is very
    wrong with the original in a proprietry project, then it stays wrong ... or
    dies and leaves all its users in the lurch)

    How many versions of PHP are there?
    How many versions of Perl are there?
    How many versions of Ruby are there?
    How many versions of Python are there?
    (Where a "version" is a separate developement process that has
    incompatibilities with others)

    You mentioned JavaScript, well that has lots of different implementations
    (but its a special case, since its an usually used as an add-on to web
    browsers, which already had separate, and proprietary implementations, and
    thus suffered through the browser wars), but now those bits of JavaScript
    which are standardized are (AFAIK) pretty evenly implemented across modern
    browsers. Besides - Javascript was not developed as an open source project,
    nor, AFAIK, was the language design generated using an open developmenet
    process.

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
     
    David Dorward, Jul 17, 2005
    #11
  12. Travis Newbury

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:39:19 +0200, "Greg N." <>
    wrote:

    >you have to look harder
    >(and pay better) to get a good ASP programmer.


    OTOH, finding a _good_ PHP developer, rather than a clueless code
    monkey, is so difficult that many projects give up and switch platform.

    Apart from maybe Perl, I've never seen such dreadful coding standards as
    I have on typical PHP projects. It's no wonder that some sites have
    banned its use as too insecure, when major products based on it (like
    phpNuke) can turn out to be susceptible to SQL injection attacks and the
    like.

    This sort of thing is trivial to avoid happening. But the PHP market is
    flooded by programmers who are barely worthy of the name and have only a
    handful of years experience. Because of the small size and rapid speed
    of modern projects, we're also seeing these people dropped into senior
    design roles that they just don't have the experience for. Ten years
    ago, there'd have been a senior developer on the team who already had
    significant experience of a particular platform - these days it's just
    monkeys led by monkeys.
     
    Andy Dingley, Jul 18, 2005
    #12
  13. Travis Newbury

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:22:20 +0100, SpaceGirl
    <> wrote:

    >Not to mention PHP is pretty much only a "web" language, while ASP.Net
    >is part of a suite of related languages that can be used for web,
    >applications, hardware etc etc etc...


    Complete rubbish.

    >Also, .Net being a "fixed" standard


    It's not even a standard (nor is PHP for that matter)


    >(it's not open source, there are
    >only a few versions of it),


    How many versions of _VB_ would you like ? M$oft are _terrible_ for
    dumping major incompatible platform shifts onto their developers. But as
    you're tied into them, you have no choice but to follow, bleating
    plaintively.

    >you can easily expect a level of expertese
    >from a .net programmer verses any other open language (js, php etc).


    Even more ridiculous.
     
    Andy Dingley, Jul 18, 2005
    #13
  14. Andy Dingley wrote:
    > How many versions of _VB_ would you like ? M$oft are _terrible_ for
    > dumping major incompatible platform shifts onto their developers. But as
    > you're tied into them, you have no choice but to follow, bleating
    > plaintively.


    Actually until .net, each version of VB (and their other primary
    development language C/C++) was completely compatible with code written
    in a previous version. What major incompatible platform shifts are you
    speaking of?

    --
    -=tn=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Jul 18, 2005
    #14
  15. Travis Newbury

    JDS Guest

    On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:27:25 +0100, SpaceGirl wrote:

    > PHP is not standards based, and I've noticed a BIG backlash against


    What standards? Microsoft? Is being MS-compliant the same as
    "standards-based" (to you)?

    PHP complies to many standards. But what standards are you referring to?

    --
    JDS |
    | http://www.newtnotes.com
    DJMBS | http://newtnotes.com/doctor-jeff-master-brainsurgeon/
     
    JDS, Jul 18, 2005
    #15
  16. JDS wrote:
    >>PHP is not standards based, and I've noticed a BIG backlash against

    > What standards? Microsoft? Is being MS-compliant the same as
    > "standards-based" (to you)?
    > PHP complies to many standards. But what standards are you referring to?


    ASP and PHP can both be used to produce HTML that is w3c standards
    compliant, but what standards are either of you talking about?


    --
    -=tn=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Jul 18, 2005
    #16
  17. JDS wrote:
    > PHP complies to many standards. But what standards are you referring to?


    Well, PHP certainly doesn't comply to the standard of having a
    non-bloated core namespace.
     
    Leif K-Brooks, Jul 18, 2005
    #17
  18. Travis Newbury

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Previously in alt.html, Leif K-Brooks <> said:

    > Well, PHP certainly doesn't comply to the standard of having a
    > non-bloated core namespace.


    Do you have a link to those specs? ;-)

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    alt.html FAQ :: http://html-faq.com/
     
    Mark Parnell, Jul 18, 2005
    #18
  19. Mark Parnell wrote:
    > Previously in alt.html, Leif K-Brooks <> said:
    >
    >>Well, PHP certainly doesn't comply to the standard of having a
    >>non-bloated core namespace.

    >
    > Do you have a link to those specs? ;-)


    <data:text/html,%44%6F%20%6E%6F%74%20%62%6C%6F%61%74%20%74%68%69%6E%65%20%63%6F%72%65%20%6E%61%6D%65%73%70%61%63%65%2E>
     
    Leif K-Brooks, Jul 18, 2005
    #19
  20. Travis Newbury

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Previously in alt.html, Leif K-Brooks <> said:

    > <data:text/html,%44%6F%20%6E%6F%74%20%62%6C%6F%61%74%20%74%68%69%6E%65%20%63%6F%72%65%20%6E%61%6D%65%73%70%61%63%65%2E>


    Wow - "thine"? That's an old standard, then. Sure it hasn't been
    superseded?

    On a more serious note, I actually have no idea what you're talking
    about, but is ASP any better? Do we even know since it's closed source?

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    alt.html FAQ :: http://html-faq.com/
     
    Mark Parnell, Jul 18, 2005
    #20
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