pissed off

Discussion in 'HTML' started by windandwaves, Oct 13, 2005.

  1. windandwaves

    windandwaves Guest

    Hi Folk

    I was just wondering if any of you are pissed off with the enormous amount
    of garbage out there on the net:

    <body leftmargin="0" right.....>
    </font><font blah blah></p><p></font><p></p> etc.....

    while all that could have been
    <p id="x">...</p>

    I am not actually angry about people making a mess, but what annoys me is
    that their page can "look" just as tidy as html strict with superbly
    formatted stylesheets, etc...

    How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their mess "behind
    the scenes"? and can we blame frontpage + dreamweaver for this mess?

    Keen to hear your comments.

    - Nicolaas
     
    windandwaves, Oct 13, 2005
    #1
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  2. "windandwaves" <> said:
    > I am not actually angry about people making a mess, but what
    > annoys me is that their page can "look" just as tidy as html
    > strict with superbly formatted stylesheets, etc...


    I think there are a heck of a lot of people out there that "prefer"
    the looks you can get with that shity code.


    > How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their
    > mess "behind the scenes"? and can we blame frontpage +
    > dreamweaver for this mess?


    Tell him about all the nerds and geeks that use something other than
    FF or IE that his pages may not look exactly the same way in... I am
    sure you will knock their sox off when you show them how great it
    "looks" to a blind person...

    Ok, I may be joking a litle, but that is argument you will have to
    win ESPECIALLY if they perceive their current website as being
    sucessfull.


    --
    -=tn=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Oct 13, 2005
    #2
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  3. windandwaves

    Mark Parnell Guest

    In our last episode, windandwaves <> pronounced
    to alt.html:

    > How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their mess "behind
    > the scenes"?


    Bandwidth - clean pages are smaller, therefore much less bandwidth used.
    This can make a big difference, especially for big sites.

    WRT CSS vs presentational HTML, code maintenance is much quicker and
    easier - changes are made in one place, not throughout every file in the
    site.

    Not sure about NZ, but here in Australia, and in many other countries,
    accessible sites are required by law. It's much easier to make a site
    accessible if it's coded properly.

    > and can we blame frontpage + dreamweaver for this mess?


    Frontpage to an extent, Dreamweaver (recent versions at least) less so.
    Ultimately it's clueless web authors that are truly to blame - if they
    didn't accept rubbish code, the editors would have to play nice.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://clarkecomputers.com.au
    alt.html FAQ :: http://html-faq.com/
     
    Mark Parnell, Oct 14, 2005
    #3
  4. windandwaves

    windandwaves Guest

    Travis Newbury wrote:
    > "windandwaves" <> said:
    >> I am not actually angry about people making a mess, but what
    >> annoys me is that their page can "look" just as tidy as html
    >> strict with superbly formatted stylesheets, etc...

    >
    > I think there are a heck of a lot of people out there that "prefer"
    > the looks you can get with that shity code.
    >
    >
    >> How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their
    >> mess "behind the scenes"? and can we blame frontpage +
    >> dreamweaver for this mess?

    >
    > Tell him about all the nerds and geeks that use something other than
    > FF or IE that his pages may not look exactly the same way in... I am
    > sure you will knock their sox off when you show them how great it
    > "looks" to a blind person...
    >
    > Ok, I may be joking a litle, but that is argument you will have to
    > win ESPECIALLY if they perceive their current website as being
    > sucessfull.


    You will win the argument, but not the commercial argument, because for
    small and medium-sized business with a couple of hundred clients each year,
    the blind and the ultrageeks are a very smalll percentage of their customers
    (if any).
     
    windandwaves, Oct 14, 2005
    #4
  5. windandwaves

    windandwaves Guest

    Mark Parnell wrote:
    > In our last episode, windandwaves <>
    > pronounced to alt.html:
    >
    >> How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their mess
    >> "behind the scenes"?

    >
    > Bandwidth - clean pages are smaller, therefore much less bandwidth
    > used. This can make a big difference, especially for big sites.
    >
    > WRT CSS vs presentational HTML, code maintenance is much quicker and
    > easier - changes are made in one place, not throughout every file in
    > the site.
    >
    > Not sure about NZ, but here in Australia, and in many other countries,
    > accessible sites are required by law. It's much easier to make a site
    > accessible if it's coded properly.


    I have heard this argument before, but I do not think it is the case for
    business. Government sites sure, but as a business you can put whatever you
    want on your site and that, i think, is fair enough. I would not want
    anyone telling me how to structure my pages - that stops progress.

    >> and can we blame frontpage + dreamweaver for this mess?

    >
    > Frontpage to an extent, Dreamweaver (recent versions at least) less
    > so. Ultimately it's clueless web authors that are truly to blame - if
    > they didn't accept rubbish code, the editors would have to play nice.


    Yep, true. Ultimately, it always comes back to choice.
     
    windandwaves, Oct 14, 2005
    #5
  6. windandwaves

    Mark Parnell Guest

    In our last episode, windandwaves <> pronounced
    to alt.html:

    [accessibility]
    > I have heard this argument before, but I do not think it is the case for
    > business. Government sites sure, but as a business you can put whatever you
    > want on your site and that, i think, is fair enough. I would not want
    > anyone telling me how to structure my pages - that stops progress.


    "The World Wide Web Consortium has developed web access guidelines, and
    non-compliance with them by the operators of Australian websites is in
    breach of the Act,"
    http://www.hreoc.gov.au/media_releases/2002/72_02.html

    No mention of it only applying to government.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://clarkecomputers.com.au
    alt.html FAQ :: http://html-faq.com/
     
    Mark Parnell, Oct 14, 2005
    #6
  7. windandwaves wrote:
    > Hi Folk
    >
    > I was just wondering if any of you are pissed off with the enormous amount
    > of garbage out there on the net:
    >
    > <body leftmargin="0" right.....>
    > </font><font blah blah></p><p></font><p></p> etc.....
    >
    > while all that could have been
    > <p id="x">...</p>
    >
    > I am not actually angry about people making a mess, but what annoys me is
    > that their page can "look" just as tidy as html strict with superbly
    > formatted stylesheets, etc...
    >
    > How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their mess "behind
    > the scenes"? and can we blame frontpage + dreamweaver for this mess?
    >
    > Keen to hear your comments.



    When they get the quote by someone hired to edit the mess when they want
    to make changes!

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Oct 14, 2005
    #7
  8. windandwaves

    dorayme Guest

    > From: "windandwaves" <>

    > How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their mess "behind
    > the scenes"? and can we blame frontpage + dreamweaver for this mess?
    >


    If they are your clients, and certainly if your position is not
    new or precarious, it depends to some extent on your standing,
    your record with them, the respect they hold for you (see note
    1). You can work in the changes gradually (see note 2) as the
    updates are done. And sort of announce them as fait complete as
    part of the work. You need to be reasonable in how you charge
    for this and take on a little without charge, it never kills you
    and boosts your confidence as you become prouder and more in
    control. And if you go really good css and minimal html, no one
    else but you, Mark Parnell, Els, Jonathon and Toby Inkster (see
    note 3) would know anything about it anyway and are unlikely to
    be found to take it over, so the firm would be stuck with you
    (destroy all the old mish mash code)...

    dorayme

    Note 1: In my case, I have a simple technique, I employ gunmen
    to sort of hang around when a client might visit or have them
    hang about in the car or lobby when I am visiting. Men like the
    three at the very start at the railway station in Once Upon a
    Time in the West (Claudia Cardinale, Charles Bronson, Henry
    Fonda and Luigi Donatello). Yeah, I know, they got shot up real
    bad by their mouth organ playing quarry, (Charles Bronson in his
    best role ever), when he arrived on the next train). Wanna know
    why he was playing the mouth organ (hauntingly) at all by any
    chance? It's worth knowing...

    Note 2: I play some tracks from the parts of the cartoons where
    Jerry is trying to sneak up on Tom when I do this...

    Note 3: Look here, I know I have left some other good folk out
    but the point is still good. You might have to watch out for
    Korpela though... unlike me, he probably does not need gunmen to
    accompany him...
     
    dorayme, Oct 14, 2005
    #8
  9. windandwaves

    Jake Guest

    In message <scB3f.261$>, windandwaves
    <> writes
    >Hi Folk
    >
    >I was just wondering if any of you are pissed off with the enormous amount
    >of garbage out there on the net:


    Not really; life's too short ...........
    >
    ><body leftmargin="0" right.....>
    ></font><font blah blah></p><p></font><p></p> etc.....
    >
    >while all that could have been
    ><p id="x">...</p>


    Or even better:
    <p class="x"> ... </p>
    >
    >I am not actually angry about people making a mess, but what annoys me is
    >that their page can "look" just as tidy as html strict with superbly
    >formatted stylesheets, etc...
    >
    >How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their mess "behind
    >the scenes"?


    Does the site 'work' at the moment? Will it cost money to change it?

    If the answer is 'yes' to both of these questions, then it's going to be
    hard/impossible to make a case.

    Try when the site is being redesigned/rebuilt.

    > and can we blame frontpage + dreamweaver for this mess?
    >
    >Keen to hear your comments.
    >
    >- Nicolaas
    >
    >


    --
    Jake ( -- just a 'spam trap' mail address)
     
    Jake, Oct 14, 2005
    #9
  10. windandwaves

    windandwaves Guest

    windandwaves wrote:
    Thank you all for your great answers. I am sure that other people have
    encountered it before. I am just a purist and even though my life is a
    mess, I dont want the www to turn into a chaos. Just imagine, for example,
    how much faster the web would be if we did not have all the dreamweaver
    tables ;-)

    Thanks again

    - Nicolaas
     
    windandwaves, Oct 14, 2005
    #10
  11. windandwaves

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, windandwaves quothed:

    > windandwaves wrote:
    > Thank you all for your great answers. I am sure that other people have
    > encountered it before. I am just a purist and even though my life is a
    > mess, I dont want the www to turn into a chaos. Just imagine, for example,
    > how much faster the web would be if we did not have all the dreamweaver
    > tables ;-)


    The more chaos there is, the more order there is.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    Neredbojias, Oct 14, 2005
    #11
  12. windandwaves

    Ed Guest

    windandwaves wrote:
    > windandwaves wrote:
    > Thank you all for your great answers. I am sure that other people have
    > encountered it before. I am just a purist and even though my life is a
    > mess, I dont want the www to turn into a chaos. Just imagine, for example,
    > how much faster the web would be if we did not have all the dreamweaver
    > tables ;-)


    The WWW already is 'chaos', but that makes it all the more interesting -
    of course, the entire planet is in disarray, which is interesting too.
    Therefore, don't get too wound up when you come across a website built
    on a scaffold of tables, it isn't too long ago that most readers of this
    newsgroup authored websites in the same manner. In my opinion, CSS-P
    evangelists are just as bad as those who try to force Christianity (or
    any other religion) down your throat - and that comes from someone who
    has not used tables for layout for several years.

    It will take some time before you see large corporate websites switch to
    CSS positioning, as it will only be considered prior to a major redesign
    ($$$). And remember, it is still extremely hard work to make your CSS
    layout work flawlessly on Windows, Mac, Linux and a whole range of
    browsers and browser versions. We often rely on CSS hacks, depending on
    the complexity of the layout, and that is worrisome, considering future
    browsers - IE7 comes to mind.


    Ed


    ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
    http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
    ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
     
    Ed, Oct 15, 2005
    #12
  13. windandwaves

    Steve Pugh Guest

    windandwaves wrote:
    >
    > I was just wondering if any of you are pissed off with the enormous amount
    > of garbage out there on the net:


    Only when it either screwd up my browsing by being slow and buggy in my
    browser; or when it's provided by some third party affiliate (yes BT
    I'm looking at you) and I need to combine with the accessible, easily
    stylable, fast, valid cde on the site I maintain.

    > How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their mess "behind
    > the scenes"?


    If they're my clients then the clean up happens as a matter of course
    whilst I'm doing other work. Many clients want a total design revamp
    every couple of years at least and at that point the old code gets
    chucked out the new put in. No point even mentioning this sort of
    'under the hood' stuff to the average client.

    Steve
     
    Steve Pugh, Oct 15, 2005
    #13
  14. windandwaves

    Guest

    windandwaves wrote:
    > Hi Folk
    >
    > I was just wondering if any of you are pissed off with the enormous amount
    > of garbage out there on the net:

    Hmm. Not really.

    >
    > <body leftmargin="0" right.....>
    > </font><font blah blah></p><p></font><p></p> etc.....

    Well I can tell you that my site at http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc loads
    quickly and validates without a problem... According to the W3C.
    I agree with the previous posters, that at the end of the day clients,
    well a lot of them would not really care what the code looks like they
    just want the site to work...
    Oh and those type of sites that you have mentioned above work perfictly
    fine as far as accessability goes. For most users (I am speeking from a
    blind persons perspective here).
    I use Jaws For Windows version 5.0 and the only problem I have with
    sites made with DW is the ones that use flash to the point of no
    reterne.
    Oh and there are those sites which have a lot of images with no alt
    text. They really anoy me. But that's another story.
    Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc
    >
    > while all that could have been
    > <p id="x">...</p>
    >
    > I am not actually angry about people making a mess, but what annoys me is
    > that their page can "look" just as tidy as html strict with superbly
    > formatted stylesheets, etc...
    >
    > How do you convince your clients they need to clean up their mess "behind
    > the scenes"? and can we blame frontpage + dreamweaver for this mess?
    >
    > Keen to hear your comments.
    >
    > - Nicolaas
     
    , Oct 15, 2005
    #14
  15. windandwaves

    dorayme Guest

    > From: "Steve Pugh" <>
    >
    > If they're my clients then the clean up happens as a matter of course
    > whilst I'm doing other work. Many clients want a total design revamp
    > every couple of years at least and at that point the old code gets
    > chucked out the new put in. No point even mentioning this sort of
    > 'under the hood' stuff to the average client.



    This is correct, I add that one can introduce changes as one
    generally maintains a site, especially with moderate to
    substantial new material, even if there is no explicit request
    for "a total revamp". If you do start talking about this 'under
    the hood' stuff, you can easily be met with silence and/or
    suspicion that you are out to do what is quite understandable,
    encourage work for yourself and get more money... There are no
    fast rules and much does depend on trust and respect. If that is
    there, you can with some confidence make decisions, you put on
    your best professional consultant coat and think "this is my
    responsibility". At least the better clients pick up on this
    without knowing the details, maybe they say "ouch" a bit, but
    gee, their site is nice and gives no trouble...

    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Oct 15, 2005
    #15
  16. windandwaves

    Jeanne D Guest

    Just think how much easier it would be if they could set a standard and
    stick with it. First I had to learn HTML, now I'm hearing that's no
    good - learn CSS, toss away your tables, nested is a dirty word.

    As a graphic designer, I want to concentrate on design not code. But a
    lot is expected of us these days, and now CSS.

    Blech. I like CSS and understand it's beauty - but please, what will
    replace CSS after I spend time away from my design tools learning it?
    Here we go again.
     
    Jeanne D, Oct 15, 2005
    #16
  17. windandwaves

    windandwaves Guest

    Jeanne D wrote:
    > Just think how much easier it would be if they could set a standard
    > and stick with it. First I had to learn HTML, now I'm hearing that's
    > no good - learn CSS, toss away your tables, nested is a dirty word.
    >
    > As a graphic designer, I want to concentrate on design not code. But a
    > lot is expected of us these days, and now CSS.
    >
    > Blech. I like CSS and understand it's beauty - but please, what will
    > replace CSS after I spend time away from my design tools learning it?
    > Here we go again.


    That is what life is all about: change and transformation. Otherwise, there
    would be no point living ;-)

    You will actually be amazed how similar html and css is when compared to 10
    years ago. Lots of the standards we use today were conceived before 2000.

    - Nicolaas
     
    windandwaves, Oct 16, 2005
    #17
  18. windandwaves

    JDS Guest

    On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 13:06:58 +1300, windandwaves wrote:

    > You will actually be amazed how similar html and css is when compared to 10
    > years ago. Lots of the standards we use today were conceived before 2000.


    Good point. CSS is not new at all. It's just that browsers capable of
    adequately implementing CSS are (relatively) new.

    For that matter, HTML is, at its core, quite old, really. You can trace
    the roots of HTML back over 35 years.

    --
    JDS |
    | http://www.newtnotes.com
    DJMBS | http://newtnotes.com/doctor-jeff-master-brainsurgeon/
     
    JDS, Oct 16, 2005
    #18
  19. windandwaves

    dorayme Guest

    > From: "Jeanne D" <>
    >
    > Just think how much easier it would be if they could set a standard and
    > stick with it. First I had to learn HTML, now I'm hearing that's no
    > good - learn CSS, toss away your tables, nested is a dirty word.
    >


    HTML is insufficient rather than no good. You don't /have to/ toss away your
    tables. And you don't have to follow every trend until you see for yourself
    a limitation that is actually bothersome in some way that you can see or
    know about for sure yourself...

    > As a graphic designer, I want to concentrate on design not code. But a
    > lot is expected of us these days, and now CSS.


    Well, what does this really mean? Designing for the web means learning to
    use the web tools. Were you turning out nice work in tables? Did it look
    nice for all your intended audience? Fine then...

    > Blech. I like CSS and understand it's beauty - but please, what will
    > replace CSS after I spend time away from my design tools learning it?
    > Here we go again.


    You see, I think there is some confusion here. The design tools
    are what? Your Illustrator ones? Gorgeous as these are
    (seriously, they are nice!), they are for preparing graphics and
    (for the print medium, text too) but that is only one part of
    website work. You will have a good eye for a result on
    individual screens. But what does designing for the web mean? It
    means being able to deliver to all manner of screens and devices
    various stuff. Designing in this context means knowing and
    allowing for different receiving machines to get your material,
    it not likely always "looking" like on your screen. The art then
    is to design not for an artboard but for an impossibly general
    object, all the devices capable of getting web content
    (including as an ideal, no visual renderers (Christ, that will
    put a spanner in the Graphic Design works!)...

    To make it manageable, best perhaps to think of a statistically
    common denominator: a person with a 17" screen who might not
    want to use it all, better not count on more than 800px wide.
    This does not mean you design only for that, some people have
    huge screens and it would be nice that they can fill them to
    some extent, that folk can enlarge the fonts a great deal and
    still get what you have to offer... Making your way through all
    the competing pressures is really nothing whatever to do with
    your Graphic Design background. It is a conceptual field, higher
    and more beautiful than brain surgery, deeper than the deepest
    thoughts of even European Existential philosophers (not!)... er
    maybe I better stop and get my pills...

    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Oct 16, 2005
    #19
  20. "dorayme" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:BF77F67C.18EE9%...
    > > From: "Jeanne D" <>
    > >
    > > Just think how much easier it would be if they could set a standard and
    > > stick with it. First I had to learn HTML, now I'm hearing that's no
    > > good - learn CSS, toss away your tables, nested is a dirty word.
    > >


    > To make it manageable, best perhaps to think of a statistically
    > common denominator: a person with a 17" screen who might not
    > want to use it all, better not count on more than 800px wide.


    800px sounds ok but less than 600 px....

    --
    Luigi Donatello Asero
    (sono italiano ma vivo in Svezia)
    (Ñ Ð¸Ñ‚Ð°Ð»ÑŒÑнец но Ñ Ð¶Ð¸Ð²Ñƒ в Швеции )
    (我是 æ„大利人 , 但是 我 ä½ åœ¨ ç‘žå…¸)
    (minä olen Italian kansalainen, mutta minä asun Ruotsissa)
    (yo soy italiano mas vivo en Suecia)
    (je suis italien mais j'habite en Suède)
    (ich bin Italiener aber ich lebe in Schweden)
    https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/faktaomitalien.php
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Oct 16, 2005
    #20
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