PLEASE HELP - How do I include OpenSSL in my code?

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by cpptutor2000@yahoo.com, May 12, 2006.

  1. Guest

    Could some C guru please help me? I have a simple piece of code as:

    #include <stdio.h>
    #include <stdlib.h>
    #include <openssl/rand.h>

    int main(){
    unsigned char temp[4];

    RAND_bytes(temp, 4);
    return 0;
    }

    If I type: whereis openssl
    I get: openssl: /usr/bin/openssl /usr/include/openssl
    /usr/share/man/man1/openssl.1ssl.gz

    I compile this as:
    gcc -g -o test test.c -I/usr/include/openssl -L/usr/bin/openssl

    I get a linker error message as :
    /tmp/cc4tQEqd.o(.text+0x1af0): In function `main':
    /home/ecelrc/students/abanerj/cpp/test.c:6: undefined reference to
    `RAND_bytes'

    Could someone please point out what I am doing wrong? Any help would be
    greatly
    appreciated.
    , May 12, 2006
    #1
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  2. said:

    > I get a linker error message as :
    > /tmp/cc4tQEqd.o(.text+0x1af0): In function `main':
    > /home/ecelrc/students/abanerj/cpp/test.c:6: undefined reference to
    > `RAND_bytes'


    You forgot to add -lssl to the end of your gcc line.

    Strictly speaking, third party libs are off-topic in clc - but hey, I won't
    tell if you don't.

    Next time, though, try a Linux group, just to play safe. Here, we get all
    antsy if it ain't ANSI. :)

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
    http://www.cpax.org.uk
    email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
    Richard Heathfield, May 12, 2006
    #2
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  3. wrote:
    > Could some C guru please help me? I have a simple piece of code as:
    >
    > #include <stdio.h>
    > #include <stdlib.h>
    > #include <openssl/rand.h>


    You're trying to get us into trouble, aren't you. Even if openssl were
    on topic here, or if your implementation-specific question were on
    topic, the language from the openssl site would scre me off:
    > PLEASE REMEMBER THAT EXPORT/IMPORT AND/OR USE OF STRONG CRYPTOGRAPHY
    > SOFTWARE, PROVIDING CRYPTOGRAPHY HOOKS OR EVEN JUST COMMUNICATING
    > TECHNICAL DETAILS ABOUT CRYPTOGRAPHY SOFTWARE IS ILLEGAL IN SOME
    > PARTS OF THE WORLD. SO, WHEN YOU IMPORT THIS PACKAGE TO YOUR COUNTRY,
    > RE-DISTRIBUTE IT FROM THERE OR EVEN JUST EMAIL TECHNICAL SUGGESTIONS
    > OR EVEN SOURCE PATCHES TO THE AUTHOR OR OTHER PEOPLE YOU ARE STRONGLY
    > ADVISED TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO ANY EXPORT/IMPORT AND/OR USE LAWS
    > WHICH APPLY TO YOU. THE AUTHORS OF OPENSSL ARE NOT LIABLE FOR ANY
    > VIOLATIONS YOU MAKE HERE. SO BE CAREFUL, IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
    Martin Ambuhl, May 12, 2006
    #3
  4. Ben C Guest

    On 2006-05-12, <> wrote:
    > Could some C guru please help me? I have a simple piece of code as:
    >
    > #include <stdio.h>
    > #include <stdlib.h>
    > #include <openssl/rand.h>
    >
    > int main(){
    > unsigned char temp[4];
    >
    > RAND_bytes(temp, 4);
    > return 0;
    > }
    >
    > If I type: whereis openssl
    > I get: openssl: /usr/bin/openssl /usr/include/openssl
    > /usr/share/man/man1/openssl.1ssl.gz
    >
    > I compile this as:
    > gcc -g -o test test.c -I/usr/include/openssl -L/usr/bin/openssl
    >
    > I get a linker error message as :
    > /tmp/cc4tQEqd.o(.text+0x1af0): In function `main':
    > /home/ecelrc/students/abanerj/cpp/test.c:6: undefined reference to
    > `RAND_bytes'
    >
    > Could someone please point out what I am doing wrong? Any help would be
    > greatly
    > appreciated.


    You need -l.

    -L tells gcc where to look for libraries, -l tells it what libraries to
    look in for symbols.

    -lxxx means "look for a library called libxxx.a in the usual places".
    You add places to "the usual places", if necessary, with -L.

    The library you want is libssl.a and is quite likely in /usr/lib, where
    gcc looks anyway, so -lssl with no -L option will probably do the trick:

    $ gcc -g -o test test.c -I/usr/include/openssl -lssl

    or also add -L/usr/lib/openssl (or something, depending on where
    libssl.a is on your system) if you need it.

    (gnu.gcc.help is the right NG for this by the way).
    Ben C, May 12, 2006
    #4
  5. Re: PLEASE HELP - How do I include OpenSSL in my code? <OT: Cryptographic laws>

    On 2006-05-12, Martin Ambuhl <> wrote:
    > wrote:
    >> Could some C guru please help me? I have a simple piece of code as:
    >>
    >> #include <stdio.h>
    >> #include <stdlib.h>
    >> #include <openssl/rand.h>

    >
    > You're trying to get us into trouble, aren't you. Even if openssl were
    > on topic here, or if your implementation-specific question were on
    > topic, the language from the openssl site would scre me off:
    >> [snipped]


    It wouldn't scare me off, but seeing people posting solid walls of text
    in all caps would.

    My poor eyes...

    Also, if you understood basic import/export cryptography laws, those
    warnings would be warnings and you'd know how to avoid legal issues.
    For example, there are no laws barring export between the US and
    Canada that I know of, but to transfer cryposystems overseas you must
    not use an electronic form.
    Andrew Poelstra, May 13, 2006
    #5
  6. Re: PLEASE HELP - How do I include OpenSSL in my code? <OT: Cryptographiclaws>

    Andrew Poelstra wrote:
    > On 2006-05-12, Martin Ambuhl <> wrote:
    >
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>>Could some C guru please help me? I have a simple piece of code as:
    >>>
    >>>#include <stdio.h>
    >>>#include <stdlib.h>
    >>>#include <openssl/rand.h>

    >>
    >>You're trying to get us into trouble, aren't you. Even if openssl were
    >>on topic here, or if your implementation-specific question were on
    >>topic, the language from the openssl site would scre me off:
    >>
    >>>[snipped]

    >
    >
    > It wouldn't scare me off, but seeing people posting solid walls of text
    > in all caps would.


    On the other hand, changing the text from the openssl website to cater to

    > My poor eyes...


    would be dishonest. It is not the posting that is all caps, but the
    quoted text.

    > Also, if you understood basic import/export cryptography laws, those
    > warnings would be warnings and you'd know how to avoid legal issues.


    If you sufficiently understand these laws well enough to be sure of
    avoiding problems (and the courts do not agree on what that
    interpretation should be), then you should be getting the big bucks as a
    corporate lawyer insted of programming.

    > For example, there are no laws barring export between the US and
    > Canada that I know of, but to transfer cryposystems overseas you must
    > not use an electronic form.


    Now you expect us to treat messages posted as somehow limited to the US
    and Canada, and further to rely on your imperfect knowledge ("that I
    know of"). Ephraim, you are a cake not turned.
    Martin Ambuhl, May 13, 2006
    #6
  7. Re: PLEASE HELP - How do I include OpenSSL in my code? <OT: Cryptographic laws>

    Andrew Poelstra said:

    <snip>

    > Also, if you understood basic import/export cryptography laws, those
    > warnings would be warnings and you'd know how to avoid legal issues.
    > For example, there are no laws barring export between the US and
    > Canada that I know of, but to transfer cryposystems overseas you must
    > not use an electronic form.


    I've got news for you, folks - we already have strong crypto outside the
    USA. We've had unbreakable crypto (albeit impractical for many purposes)
    for almost a century, and almost-unbreakable public/private key for - well,
    for just a few years longer than you. :)

    And in any case, inventing a reasonably secure cryptosystem is, frankly,
    trivial. The tricky bit is not the "technology" if that's the word, but the
    usage - a great many ciphers are cracked not because they are inherently
    weak but because they are misused.

    The genie has been out of the bottle for a very long time.

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
    http://www.cpax.org.uk
    email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
    Richard Heathfield, May 13, 2006
    #7
  8. Re: PLEASE HELP - How do I include OpenSSL in my code? <OT: Cryptographic laws>

    In article <>,
    Andrew Poelstra <> wrote:
    >Also, if you understood basic import/export cryptography laws, those
    >warnings would be warnings and you'd know how to avoid legal issues.
    >For example, there are no laws barring export between the US and
    >Canada that I know of, but to transfer cryposystems overseas you must
    >not use an electronic form.


    There *are* laws controlling the export of cryptography from the US to
    Canada. Those laws happen to say something on the order of, "providing
    these conditions are met, no export permit is required" to export to
    Canada, and that "providing these conditions are met, there is an
    automatic export permit" to a small number of other countries. The
    catch is in the "these conditions are met" portion.

    For example, if a citizen of one of the six or so designated "hostile
    countries" manages to legally reach the USA, then that citizen may
    freely use strong cryptography *within the USA*, and that foreign
    citizen may buy books, attend lectures, enter a cryptography PhD
    program and so on -- as long as that foreign citizen does not -export-
    the cryptographic programs.

    I, a Canadian citizen, can buy and utilize US-originated strong
    encryption programs within Canada (or to the USA or the other select
    countries). However, the way the US export laws are written, if the
    strong encryption program had been exported from the USA, then I [in
    Canada] could not permit that same foreign citizen from using my copy
    of the program, not even just to communicate within Canada between they
    and I.


    Now, it happens that some of our employees are from one of those
    designated countries; and I am not permitted to discriminate against
    any employee based upon country of origin, so my choice was effectively
    to either be careful only to use cryptography that did not originate in
    the USA, or else to not make cryptographic services routinely available
    to any of our employees.

    I did raise this point with our corporate security people at one point;
    they believed that there was an exemption covering the situation, but
    they did not have any justification available for such an exemption; I
    gather that they casually asked someone who works for A Four Letter
    Acronym {Three Letter Acronyms are for the USA ;-) } and were casually
    told it wasn't a problem. (I preferred a stronger reassurance...)
    --
    All is vanity. -- Ecclesiastes
    Walter Roberson, May 14, 2006
    #8
  9. Re: PLEASE HELP - How do I include OpenSSL in my code? <OT: Cryptographic laws>

    On 2006-05-13, Martin Ambuhl <> wrote:
    > Andrew Poelstra wrote:
    >> On 2006-05-12, Martin Ambuhl <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>Could some C guru please help me? I have a simple piece of code as:
    >>>>
    >>>>#include <stdio.h>
    >>>>#include <stdlib.h>
    >>>>#include <openssl/rand.h>
    >>>
    >>>You're trying to get us into trouble, aren't you. Even if openssl were
    >>>on topic here, or if your implementation-specific question were on
    >>>topic, the language from the openssl site would scre me off:
    >>>
    >>>>[snipped]

    >>
    >>
    >> It wouldn't scare me off, but seeing people posting solid walls of text
    >> in all caps would.

    >
    > On the other hand, changing the text from the openssl website to cater to
    >

    He needed neither to change the text or to quote it at all.

    >> My poor eyes...

    >
    > would be dishonest. It is not the posting that is all caps, but the
    > quoted text.

    I know; but on the site I can set stylesheets so that the colors aren't
    so painful (slrn put the post in red on black).

    >> Also, if you understood basic import/export cryptography laws, those
    >> warnings would be warnings and you'd know how to avoid legal issues.

    >
    > If you sufficiently understand these laws well enough to be sure of
    > avoiding problems (and the courts do not agree on what that
    > interpretation should be), then you should be getting the big bucks as a
    > corporate lawyer insted of programming.
    >

    See below.

    >> For example, there are no laws barring export between the US and
    >> Canada that I know of, but to transfer cryposystems overseas you must
    >> not use an electronic form.

    >
    > Now you expect us to treat messages posted as somehow limited to the US
    > and Canada, and further to rely on your imperfect knowledge ("that I
    > know of"). Ephraim, you are a cake not turned.
    >

    "For example" does not mean "As applies to everyone here". US/Canada is
    the border that concerns me personally the most, but I'm in no way
    speaking for everyone.
    Andrew Poelstra, May 14, 2006
    #9
  10. Re: PLEASE HELP - How do I include OpenSSL in my code? <OT: Cryptographic laws>

    On 2006-05-13, Richard Heathfield <> wrote:
    > Andrew Poelstra said:
    >
    ><snip>
    >
    >> Also, if you understood basic import/export cryptography laws, those
    >> warnings would be warnings and you'd know how to avoid legal issues.
    >> For example, there are no laws barring export between the US and
    >> Canada that I know of, but to transfer cryposystems overseas you must
    >> not use an electronic form.

    >
    > I've got news for you, folks - we already have strong crypto outside the
    > USA. We've had unbreakable crypto (albeit impractical for many purposes)
    > for almost a century, and almost-unbreakable public/private key for - well,
    > for just a few years longer than you. :)
    >

    Yes, I'm well aware of that. :)

    > And in any case, inventing a reasonably secure cryptosystem is, frankly,
    > trivial. The tricky bit is not the "technology" if that's the word, but the
    > usage - a great many ciphers are cracked not because they are inherently
    > weak but because they are misused.
    >

    True; of course, most people who hear that believe that ciphertext =
    plaintext ^ 5 is a "reasonably secure cryptosystem". I prefer to say
    simply that only cryptographers can make decent ciphers. It saves me
    from every having to debug a homebrew one.
    >
    Andrew Poelstra, May 14, 2006
    #10
  11. Re: PLEASE HELP - How do I include OpenSSL in my code? <OT: Cryptographic laws>

    Andrew Poelstra said:

    > On 2006-05-13, Richard Heathfield <> wrote:
    >
    >> And in any case, inventing a reasonably secure cryptosystem is, frankly,
    >> trivial. The tricky bit is not the "technology" if that's the word, but
    >> the usage - a great many ciphers are cracked not because they are
    >> inherently weak but because they are misused.
    >>

    > True; of course, most people who hear that believe that ciphertext =
    > plaintext ^ 5 is a "reasonably secure cryptosystem".


    And so it is, provided nobody actually tries to crack it (which, again, is
    true of most cryptosystems!).

    When people do try to roll their own, it is sometimes embarrassing to see
    just how quickly they can be broken. A guy I used to work with came up with
    what he thought was an uncrackably complex scheme. He had spent several
    days designing it. He gave me no algorithm, just some ciphertext, and it
    took me about ten minutes. <sigh>

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
    http://www.cpax.org.uk
    email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
    Richard Heathfield, May 14, 2006
    #11
  12. Martin Ambuhl wrote:
    > wrote:
    >> Could some C guru please help me? I have a simple piece of code as:
    >>
    >> #include <stdio.h>
    >> #include <stdlib.h>
    >> #include <openssl/rand.h>

    >
    > You're trying to get us into trouble, aren't you. Even if openssl were
    > on topic here, or if your implementation-specific question were on
    > topic, the language from the openssl site would scre me off:
    >> PLEASE REMEMBER THAT EXPORT/IMPORT AND/OR USE OF STRONG CRYPTOGRAPHY
    >> SOFTWARE, PROVIDING CRYPTOGRAPHY HOOKS OR EVEN JUST COMMUNICATING
    >> TECHNICAL DETAILS ABOUT CRYPTOGRAPHY SOFTWARE IS ILLEGAL IN SOME
    >> PARTS OF THE WORLD. SO, WHEN YOU IMPORT THIS PACKAGE TO YOUR COUNTRY,
    >> RE-DISTRIBUTE IT FROM THERE OR EVEN JUST EMAIL TECHNICAL SUGGESTIONS
    >> OR EVEN SOURCE PATCHES TO THE AUTHOR OR OTHER PEOPLE YOU ARE STRONGLY
    >> ADVISED TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO ANY EXPORT/IMPORT AND/OR USE LAWS
    >> WHICH APPLY TO YOU. THE AUTHORS OF OPENSSL ARE NOT LIABLE FOR ANY
    >> VIOLATIONS YOU MAKE HERE. SO BE CAREFUL, IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.


    Why is this scary? It's just a typical "you cannot sue us" extension of
    the BSD license. In reality there are only a few countries where this
    would be a problem. A hint is that OpenSSL development having to do
    with encryption is not done in those countries (and therefore, not
    subject to export law). They ship from those countries "because they
    can" (quote from the OpenSSL website).

    Even in the US, as long as you do not export the software you write
    based on strong crypto like OpenSSL you should be fine. It is not
    illegal to code (yet). Most export laws are triggered once you try to
    sell or provide software based on such tech to another country or agent
    of another country.

    However, the laws regarding such material are byzantine and subject to
    broad interpretation. This warning is a just a YMMV.
    Clever Monkey, May 15, 2006
    #12
  13. Clever Monkey wrote:

    > Why is this scary? It's just a typical "you cannot sue us" extension of

    How about this:
    >>> OR EVEN JUST EMAIL TECHNICAL SUGGESTIONS

    > the BSD license.


    The BSD license is irrelevant. We have a government in the US that is
    technically challenged (so they don't understand the pointlessness of
    these attempts to control information about cryptology) and with a will
    to arrest on the slightest provocation.

    > In reality there are only a few countries where this
    > would be a problem.


    "A few countries" are a serious problem with an uncontrolled medium like
    a newsgroup.

    > Even in the US, as long as you do not export the software you write
    > based on strong crypto like OpenSSL you should be fine. It is not
    > illegal to code (yet).


    Please don't offer legal advice unless you are willing to be sued should
    it go wrong. The original poster asked for technical suggestions. Are
    you willing to bet your freedom and property that the government will
    not come after people who answer him? Are you willing to bet your
    freedom and property that this newsgroup does not reach those "few
    countries" in which this could be a problem.
    Martin Ambuhl, May 15, 2006
    #13
  14. Malcolm Guest

    Re: PLEASE HELP - How do I include OpenSSL in my code? <OT: Cryptographic laws>

    "Richard Heathfield" <> wrote in message
    >> True; of course, most people who hear that believe that ciphertext =
    >> plaintext ^ 5 is a "reasonably secure cryptosystem".

    >
    > And so it is, provided nobody actually tries to crack it (which, again, is
    > true of most cryptosystems!).
    >
    > When people do try to roll their own, it is sometimes embarrassing to see
    > just how quickly they can be broken. A guy I used to work with came up
    > with
    > what he thought was an uncrackably complex scheme. He had spent several
    > days designing it. He gave me no algorithm, just some ciphertext, and it
    > took me about ten minutes. <sigh>
    >

    But if you are scanning every email sent in the country, for the string "Mr
    Vladimir orders three quarts of cheese", then those ten minutes are
    prohibitive.
    --
    www.personal.leeds.ac.uk/~bgy1mm
    Malcolm, May 17, 2006
    #14
  15. Re: PLEASE HELP - How do I include OpenSSL in my code? <OT: Cryptographic laws>

    On 2006-05-17, Malcolm <> wrote:
    > "Richard Heathfield" <> wrote in message
    >>> True; of course, most people who hear that believe that ciphertext =
    >>> plaintext ^ 5 is a "reasonably secure cryptosystem".

    >>
    >> And so it is, provided nobody actually tries to crack it (which, again, is
    >> true of most cryptosystems!).
    >>
    >> When people do try to roll their own, it is sometimes embarrassing to see
    >> just how quickly they can be broken. A guy I used to work with came up
    >> with
    >> what he thought was an uncrackably complex scheme. He had spent several
    >> days designing it. He gave me no algorithm, just some ciphertext, and it
    >> took me about ten minutes. <sigh>
    >>

    > But if you are scanning every email sent in the country, for the string "Mr
    > Vladimir orders three quarts of cheese", then those ten minutes are
    > prohibitive.

    Don't cut attribution lines; it took me five minutes to figure out that I
    had made the post Richard replied to.

    Once you crack a message, you can figure out the algorithm, and from there it
    no longer takes 10 minutes per message.

    --

    Andrew Poelstra < http://www.wpsoftware.net/blog >
    Andrew Poelstra, May 18, 2006
    #15
  16. Re: PLEASE HELP - How do I include OpenSSL in my code? <OT: Cryptographic laws>

    Malcolm said:

    > "Richard Heathfield" <> wrote in message
    >>> True; of course, most people who hear that believe that ciphertext =
    >>> plaintext ^ 5 is a "reasonably secure cryptosystem".

    >>
    >> And so it is, provided nobody actually tries to crack it (which, again,
    >> is true of most cryptosystems!).
    >>
    >> When people do try to roll their own, it is sometimes embarrassing to see
    >> just how quickly they can be broken. A guy I used to work with came up
    >> with
    >> what he thought was an uncrackably complex scheme. He had spent several
    >> days designing it. He gave me no algorithm, just some ciphertext, and it
    >> took me about ten minutes. <sigh>
    >>

    > But if you are scanning every email sent in the country, for the string
    > "Mr Vladimir orders three quarts of cheese", then those ten minutes are
    > prohibitive.


    Yes, but this was (almost) twenty years ago, by hand. With a computer, it
    would have taken approximately three xesoseconds[1] to crack the code -
    which, despite all its superficial complexity, was a mono.

    Two common mistakes made by bozocryptographers are:

    (1) they think that, to get the plaintext, the cryppies are required to
    reverse-engineer the actual (secret) cryptosystem devised by the
    cryptographer;
    (2) they don't realise that two (or even a great many more than two)
    substitution schemes are basically the same as one substitution scheme and
    can be solved as if they were one.

    Well, it was almost twenty years ago, so I think I've known enough Andrews
    that I can call the guy Andrew (his real name) without fear of embarrassing
    him. What Andrew had done was to set up a monoalphabetic substitution
    cipher (A = R, B = K, C = Z, whatever). He had then replaced each letter by
    an entire word beginning with that letter. He then replaced the word by a
    picture representing the word. And he then replaced the picture by a
    four-digit number. He thought there was no way I'd be able to even guess
    that pictures were involved (which was true!), and that therefore I would
    be unable to decipher the message (which was not!).



    [1] abbrev for "oneofthosenewfangledprefixesoseconds"

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
    http://www.cpax.org.uk
    email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
    Richard Heathfield, May 18, 2006
    #16
  17. Jordan Abel Guest

    Re: PLEASE HELP - How do I include OpenSSL in my code? <OT: Cryptographic laws>

    On 2006-05-18, Andrew Poelstra <> wrote:
    > On 2006-05-17, Malcolm <> wrote:
    >> "Richard Heathfield" <> wrote in message
    >>>> True; of course, most people who hear that believe that ciphertext =
    >>>> plaintext ^ 5 is a "reasonably secure cryptosystem".
    >>>
    >>> And so it is, provided nobody actually tries to crack it (which, again, is
    >>> true of most cryptosystems!).
    >>>
    >>> When people do try to roll their own, it is sometimes embarrassing to see
    >>> just how quickly they can be broken. A guy I used to work with came up
    >>> with
    >>> what he thought was an uncrackably complex scheme. He had spent several
    >>> days designing it. He gave me no algorithm, just some ciphertext, and it
    >>> took me about ten minutes. <sigh>
    >>>

    >> But if you are scanning every email sent in the country, for the string "Mr
    >> Vladimir orders three quarts of cheese", then those ten minutes are
    >> prohibitive.

    > Don't cut attribution lines; it took me five minutes to figure out that I
    > had made the post Richard replied to.
    >
    > Once you crack a message, you can figure out the algorithm, and from there it
    > no longer takes 10 minutes per message.


    Assuming the secret is also the same for all the other messages - an
    algorithm on its own buys you very little.
    Jordan Abel, May 18, 2006
    #17
  18. Old Wolf Guest

    Re: PLEASE HELP - How do I include OpenSSL in my code? <OT: Cryptographic laws>

    Richard Heathfield wrote:
    > When people do try to roll their own, it is sometimes embarrassing to see
    > just how quickly they can be broken. A guy I used to work with came up with
    > what he thought was an uncrackably complex scheme. He had spent several
    > days designing it. He gave me no algorithm, just some ciphertext, and it
    > took me about ten minutes. <sigh>


    But you are a genius. See:
    http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/msg/e105e5d339edec01
    Old Wolf, May 19, 2006
    #18
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