Pop up technique

K

Kathleen Coyne

I've been searching and searching, and I just can't seem to find a pop
up that can do this for me. ALMOST... but not quite.

I need a pop up that will:

-If javascript (or whichever is used) is disabled, it will just pop up
a browser with the image in it.

-it will close when clicked.

-it will close when a new pop up is created.

I have found a wonderful script with all the above... except...

-it must resize the image and window depending upon the screen
resolution.

Any ideas?

Thank you.
 
A

Andrew Davidson

Kathleen Coyne said:
I've been searching and searching, and I just can't seem to find a pop
up that can do this for me. ALMOST... but not quite.
I need a pop up that will:

No you don't.
-If javascript (or whichever is used) is disabled, it will just pop up
a browser with the image in it.
whichever?

-it will close when clicked.

every window can be closed by clicking "close". It just doesn't get simpler than
that.
-it will close when a new pop up is created.

a *new* pop up? The first was one too many.
I have found a wonderful script with all the above... except...

No you haven't.
-it must resize the image and window depending upon the screen
resolution.

Why? Screen resolution is meaningless in this context.
Any ideas?

Yes - Don't make pop-ups. Don't resize *my* browser. Don't rely on javascript.
Don't invent new controls for common functions.
Thank you.

You're welcome.
 
N

never u mind

I have found a wonderful script with all the above...
No you haven't.

Who are you to tell her what she has and hasn't found.

Why? Screen resolution is meaningless in this context.

Because she wants it to. That's why.


Yes - Don't make pop-ups. Don't resize *my* browser. Don't rely on javascript.
Don't invent new controls for common functions.

I can almost see tears rolling down your face like a little baby. Don't
touch my candy, don't play with my toys, Don't resize "my" browser window.
Grow up you big pansy.
You're welcome.

Be helpful, don't be an ass.
 
D

DU

never said:
Who are you to tell her what she has and hasn't found.

Note that no url, no chunks of significant code was provided. Just a
tone of requesting this, that and give me that too.
Because she wants it to. That's why.

Scr. res. does not make sense really. MSIE 6 and Mozilla-browsers have
user settings for automatic resizing to fit the window dimensions. In
any case, if you click a thumbnail, that's normally because you want to
see the image in its original dimensions.
I can almost see tears rolling down your face like a little baby. Don't
touch my candy, don't play with my toys, Don't resize "my" browser window.
Grow up you big pansy.

Major browser manufacturers have understood the perspective of users.
It's now easy to turn off the javascript ability to resize a window in
NS 6.2+, Mozilla-based browsers, Opera 7 and many other browsers or MSIE
6 with add-ons. Web developers should concentrate on providing useful,
meaninful content and to let the chrome, toolbars, browser window in the
hands of browser software and users via user settings.
You're welcome.


Be helpful, don't be an ass.



Multi-posting is the very first thing I hate about posts (fragmenting
discussions, making other people post questions and answers when they
are unaware that the answer/solution was given in another thread,
etc..). That's what the OP did. There is already so many posts on popups
and already thousands of threads in alt.html and comp.lang.javascript
about popups that multiposting questions on popup is asking for trouble.

DU
--
Javascript and Browser bugs:
http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/
- Resources, help and tips for Netscape 7.x users and Composer
- Interactive demos on Popup windows, music (audio/midi) in Netscape 7.x
http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/Netscape7/Netscape7Section.html
 
N

never u mind

Hywel Jenkins said:
Show us how.

How about being helpful and not a bunch of arrogant jerks. This could be
such a great group, but instead there's a small handfull of people here that
think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the knowledge they
have to give must be given with a heaping side of arrogance. EVERYONE HAS
TO START SOMEWHERE. Why can't you give the same information in a kind
manner? Why do you have to act like a whiny baby when someone wants to make
a pop up. How about instead of "Don't resize *my* browser window" you say,
"most people find it annoying when there windows get resized, so it's best
not to do that". Ok, conveys the same message and nobody has to feel stupid
for wanting to try a new techninque. I'm so sick of arrogant pricks that
think they are better than everyone else. RF is known for being whiny when
it comes giving critiques....have you seen his site? He should be taking
some of his own medicine. And that goes for most of the "know it alls" in
this group with rather "bla" sites. Feel free to put me on your blocked
senders list, that's fine, but just remember this, We all have to start
somewhere. People come here looking for advice, not to be put down. There
is not need to make people feel stupid. And stop taking everything so damn
personally. Late............
 
A

Andrew Davidson

never u mind said:
Who are you to tell her what she has and hasn't found.

She said the script was wonderful, but her description shows that it isn't. (Who
am I? Some one who can read the OP.)
Because she wants it to. That's why.

She may want to, but I wish to point out that her desire almost certainly stems
from a misunderstanding. Many people think there is a straight-line ratio
between screen resolution and available browser size - there isn't.
I can almost see tears rolling down your face like a little baby.

Not on my face you don't. Most people create web-sites to be helpful or to
delight their visitors, yet everything she was trying to do would annoy and
alienate. I thought it worthwhile to advise her against those things. However, I
don't care whether she listens or not. My advice is given, and then I move on.
No tears, nada.
Be helpful, don't be an ass.

As explained, that's exactly what I did, whereas you just whinged and said
nothing useful (ah - now I see those tears - can I lend you a handkerchief
dearie?).
 
K

Kathleen Coyne

The "No pop ups" and "Don't close the window" arguments are
interesting.

The only reason why I implement those onto my website is because
people request them.

Yup. It's requested. It doesn't annoy them, in fact they prefer it.
Just about anyone I show my websites to prefer that it pops up. I
have even forgotten to implement a pop up, and the user got frustrated
because it didn't automatically pop up.

I had another user tell me they just don't close windows after a pop
up image. He likes that they pop up, but he always forgets to close
the window, and after awhile, he ends up with tons of open windows.
When I implemented a way to automatically close the window or show the
image in the other open window, he was extremely happy with the
result.

And every additional person has been very happy with the result as
well.

It's one thing for web masters to always design their sites for people
who want to browse the web in a certain way - but remember, the
average user doesn't know how to modify the web to their preferences -
and others are too lazy.

I've had someone tell me they don't want to put in the effort to
"alternate click/open in new window." I've had many tell me they get
pissed if an off site link doesn't pop up automatically because they
end up losing the original site iwhen they didn't notice it wasn't a
pop up, or they forgot to manually put it in a new browser.

The majority aren't web savvy. I don't design for the anal-rententive
web nazis. I design for my target audience - and for a portfolio
oriented site, the target audience has low web skills.
 
E

EightNineThree

Kathleen Coyne said:
The "No pop ups" and "Don't close the window" arguments are
interesting.

The only reason why I implement those onto my website is because
people request them.
The majority aren't web savvy. I don't design for the anal-rententive
web nazis. I design for my target audience - and for a portfolio
oriented site, the target audience has low web skills.

Opening new windows is a snake's nest of usability and accessibility
problems.
Why do you think AOL and Earthlink offer popup blockers? Why do Mozilla,
Opera, and Google Toolbar have settings to interrupt new windows opening?
Because they're a f&*%king nightmare to deal with and they *are not*
user-friendly.

In the overwhelming majority of the time, pop-up windows are unneccessary,
annoying, and inaccessible.
If you're opening pop-ups for supplemental content, you need to reassess the
information architecture of the site.


Dive Into Accessibility - Day 16: Not opening new windows

http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_16_not_opening_new_windows.html



Don't Use Frames or Navigational Popups

http://www.seankenney.com/publications/2001-04/



Top Ten New Mistakes of Web Design: (#2 Opening new windows)

http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html

Closing popup windows - or, the user rebellion
http://www.structureinteractive.com/thought/white_popup.htm
 
J

John C

Opening new windows is a snake's nest of usability and accessibility
problems.
Why do you think AOL and Earthlink offer popup blockers? Why do Mozilla,
Opera, and Google Toolbar have settings to interrupt new windows opening?
Because they're a f&*%king nightmare to deal with and they *are not*
user-friendly.

Oh, good grief. I've had nightmares, and new windows are not a nightmare.
I'd say they're more on the order of this freakin' mosquito that's
buzzing by my head every so often and who's gonna die pretty soon. Also,
new windows should be distinguished from popups, and further distinction
made for those that open without user input (the ads we all hate and
block) as opposed to those that open when a user clicks the link (the new
windows and/or popups that *some* people hate, *some* don't care, and
*some* find helpful when done in appropriate circumstances).
In the overwhelming majority of the time, pop-up windows are unneccessary,
annoying, and inaccessible.

I agree with that assessment (tho not sure about intended meaning of
'inaccessible'). But as with many things, the "thing" is not the evil,
but rather the manner in which it's used. Kind of like the saying "guns
don't kill people, people kill people". In the overall scheme of things,
however, popups are rarely lethal. But I've wondered if those flashing
ads could trigger an epileptic episode.
If you're opening pop-ups for supplemental content, you need to reassess the
information architecture of the site.

See Nielsen comment quoted below.
Top Ten New Mistakes of Web Design: (#2 Opening new windows)

http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html

At http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530_comments.html Mr. Nielsen says:

<quote>To me, a pop-up is a window that is intended as a supplement to a
primary browser window. Thus, it is typically smaller and it does not
contain a "full" page of info. In contrast, the "new browser windows" I
warned against as mistake #2 are intended to stand on their own and
contain a full page. I actually agree that pop-ups can be useful; I
simply observe that users often close the pop-ups without even looking at
their content. Thus, I currently warn against using them for anything
essential. Help may in fact be a great example of an appropriate pop-up:
the text should definitely be short and it is best to be able to see the
help without changing or obscuring the original context.</quote>
 
T

Toby A Inkster

Kathleen said:
The majority aren't web savvy. I don't design for the anal-rententive
web nazis. I design for my target audience - and for a portfolio
oriented site, the target audience has low web skills.

IME the non-web-savvy will be confused if you open a new window simply
because they won't be able to use the "back" button to get back to your
site.
 
K

Kris

It's one thing for web masters to always design their sites for people
who want to browse the web in a certain way - but remember, the
average user doesn't know how to modify the web to their preferences -
and others are too lazy.

I've had someone tell me they don't want to put in the effort to
"alternate click/open in new window." I've had many tell me they get
pissed if an off site link doesn't pop up automatically because they
end up losing the original site iwhen they didn't notice it wasn't a
pop up, or they forgot to manually put it in a new browser.

The majority aren't web savvy. I don't design for the anal-rententive
web nazis. I design for my target audience - and for a portfolio
oriented site, the target audience has low web skills.

This is all assuming that people *want* new windows. For those that
don't want it and those who do alike, you remove the choice.

Besides, my mom always told me "if you want something, you have to do
something for it".
 
J

John C

IME the non-web-savvy will be confused if you open a new window simply
because they won't be able to use the "back" button to get back to your
site.

I defer to people like Mr. Nielsen who've actually done studies. On the
other hand, I've personally observed people who more easily grasped
closing a second window than back-buttoning to their point of departure.
Some people don't realize they can click the back button more than once!
I've seen it several times. Admittedly, these were mostly government
employees and debatable whether members of the genus homo sapiens. But,
where on the evolutionary scale are you gonna draw the line for
discussing usability?
 
E

EightNineThree

John C said:
Oh, good grief. I've had nightmares, and new windows are not a nightmare.
I'd say they're more on the order of this freakin' mosquito that's
buzzing by my head every so often and who's gonna die pretty soon. Also,
new windows should be distinguished from popups, and further distinction
made for those that open without user input (the ads we all hate and
block) as opposed to those that open when a user clicks the link (the new
windows and/or popups that *some* people hate, *some* don't care, and
*some* find helpful when done in appropriate circumstances).

Again, I ask: Why do you think AOL and Earthlink offer popup blockers? Why
do Mozilla,
Opera, and Google Toolbar have settings to interrupt new windows opening?

Because enough people hate them that they've spawned the need for such
things.
I agree with that assessment (tho not sure about intended meaning of
'inaccessible').

Pop-up ads are typically inaccessible for two reasons:
1. They effectively break the back button
2. They are often coded incorrectly, using either "#" or "javascript:;" as
the hypertext reference. How does someone access that content if their
browser does not recognize javascript? First, "#" is not a NULL hypertext
reference, it is a fragment identified separator. Second, "javascript:;" is
obviously not a scheme that is very useful if the user's browser does not
recognize scripting.
3. While it is possible to create an accessible popup, most people don't do
it the right way.


See Nielsen comment quoted below.


At http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530_comments.html Mr. Nielsen says:

<quote>To me, a pop-up is a window that is intended as a supplement to a
primary browser window. Thus, it is typically smaller and it does not
contain a "full" page of info. In contrast, the "new browser windows" I
warned against as mistake #2 are intended to stand on their own and
contain a full page. I actually agree that pop-ups can be useful; I
simply observe that users often close the pop-ups without even looking at
their content. Thus, I currently warn against using them for anything
essential. Help may in fact be a great example of an appropriate pop-up:
the text should definitely be short and it is best to be able to see the
help without changing or obscuring the original context.</quote>

How does this negate my statement that, " If you're opening pop-ups for
supplemental content, you need to reassess the information architecture of
the site."?

I recognize the Logic mantra "Universal Statements are particularly false",
but I would venture to say that most people don't know the difference
between "appropriate pop-up" and an inappropriate one.

I've seen one appropriate pop-up: a glossary of terms on a Mortgage site.
 
S

Sean Jorden

Again, I ask: Why do you think AOL and Earthlink offer popup blockers?
Why do Mozilla,
Opera, and Google Toolbar have settings to interrupt new windows
opening?

I thought it was for people like my Grandpa who once came out in a cold
sweat asking why his screen is suddenly filling up with windows. LIKE he
was looking at CNN ;)

Remember, Google still allows user initiated popups and both Mozilla and
Google have white lists (never used the others, can't comment).
 
J

John C

Again, I ask: Why do you think AOL and Earthlink offer popup blockers?

Well, c'mon. Their decisions are purely marketing. Why does Proctor &
Gamble offer "new & improved!" dish soap every year or so?
Why
do Mozilla,
Opera, and Google Toolbar have settings to interrupt new windows opening?

I think Mozilla did because they saw a need or it was requested often,
Opera and Google for the same reasons that motivate AOL and Earthlink.
It's a hot bandwagon. Mind, I'm not saying that doesn't make it a good
thing. Market forces often yield genuine benefits to humanity. But if you
ask why a company does something, let's not confuse whose "need" for
"what" (money) is controlling.
Because enough people hate them that they've spawned the need for such
things.

Okay, that's different from saying they're inherently evil and all people
hate them.
Pop-up ads are typically inaccessible for two reasons:
1. They effectively break the back button
2. They are often coded incorrectly, using either "#" or "javascript:;" as
the hypertext reference. How does someone access that content if their
browser does not recognize javascript? First, "#" is not a NULL hypertext
reference, it is a fragment identified separator. Second, "javascript:;" is
obviously not a scheme that is very useful if the user's browser does not
recognize scripting.

No argument there. I do get the sense that the people who feel strongly
about popups and new windows are the same people who surf with javascript
disabled. Maybe authors who insist on using popups and spawning new
windows should be encouraged to use javascript exclusively.. ;-)

Web authors range from the clueless to the clued-in. Some toward the
clueless end still have useful content to contribute even though it's
"inaccessible" or obnoxious for lack of knowing better. How to educate
them? At what point in this thread should the OP have acquired an
understanding of the www principles relevant to her inquiry as opposed to
thinking she just ran into some reactionary personal opinions? You did
the best job of educating by including some resources and references, but
personal bias was still so unadulterated as to impair credibility.
 
J

John C

You did
the best job of educating by including some resources and references, but
personal bias was still so unadulterated as to impair credibility.

Karl - I owe you an apology for that last bit about unadulterated bias. I
just reviewed the entire thread as well as your first post, and your
remarks, while colorfully reflecting a bias, were well balanced and
referenced to enhance credibility. I still stand by the bit about your
doing the best job of educating in the thread.

John C.
 
K

Kathleen Coyne

Dispite all these arguments, it still doesn't address the issue at
hand. As if it's being avoided.

Every average user I speak of about web issues *prefer* pop ups in the
type of implemation that I use them for (larger images, and outside
links), to the point of requesting their implementation.

The reason why there are "pop up blockers" is because users don't want
ads, or extra drivel when they are surfing. That is also why the
Google blocker is considered a "smart blocker" because it allows user
initiated pop ups.

Thats what I have in my site - user initiated pop ups. The back
button isn't "broken" because the pop ups are smaller than the screen
size. Even if the user is browsing non-full screen, any pop ups will
be offset from the original location. Thusly, it's known it's a pop
up, and only causing minimal cases of "broken back button" confusion.

My original request for a pop up simply was for a gallery of images.
Anyone who regularly peruses through galleries expects the larger
images to be popped up. It's not like I came up with this idea out of
the blue. I used many different presidences that were recomended,
weeding out ones with greater evils (frames), and choosing the most
popular, and slowly modifying things along with user requests.

The "over whelming majority of the time is unnessisary" was
mentioned... but many are behaving as if it should never be done. A
pop up is not a f** nightmare, as being compared to. User initiated
pop ups are far from that to even those who are hyper sensitive to pop
ups on the web.
 
R

rf

Kathleen Coyne said:
User initiated
pop ups

Here is the key phrase. *User* initiated pop-ups.

Just about every browser out there has a facility to open a link in a new
window. In many of them this is as simple as holding down a key while
clicking the link.

The *user* has a choice. Open the link in the current window or open it in a
new window.

However if you, the author, arrange it so that the link always opens a new
window then you have removed the choice from the user. You have limited
their options to *only* openeing the link in a new window.

If a user *likes* popups then, fine, allow them to open new windows.
Similarly if a user does *not* like popups then, once again, allow them to
do what they want.

If *you* feel that your galery of images is best used in a popup environment
then tell your viewers how to do this *if they want to*.

Cheers
Richard.
 
E

EightNineThree

Dispite all these arguments, it still doesn't address the issue at
hand. As if it's being avoided.

Every average user I speak of about web issues *prefer* pop ups in the
type of implemation that I use them for (larger images, and outside
links), to the point of requesting their implementation.

Please post an URL to an example.


The issue you're attempting to address is made even worse with pop-ups, IMO.
Your user doesn't go to a photo gallery to see one image. So, if you do it
wrong, you could end up creating a whole swarm of open windows on the user's
screen.
You'd be even smarter to keep everything on one page and use something like
PHP to display the larger image on request on the same page.
This will allow the user to navigate the gallery without switching back &
forth to different windows.

//something like this

if (!isset($detail)) {
print ("<a href=\"gallery.php?detail=123\"><img src=\"thumbnail.jpg\"
alt=\"Click for the large version\"></a>");
// print all the other thumbs, too.
}

else if (isset($detail) {
switch($detail){
case '123':
print ("<img src=\"large_version.jpg\" alt=\"This is the
large version\">");
break;
// continue with switch
}
// then, print remaining thumbnails to choose from
}


No need for popups, does the same thing.
 

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