Possibly OT. IE6 and background colors..

Discussion in 'Javascript' started by The Natural Philosopher, Oct 26, 2007.

  1. Another extremely weird feature from iE6

    I have a site, whose predominant colors are green background with white
    writing.

    There is a style sheet with many styles, of which all either specify a
    green background, or don't specify any. Body defaults to green.

    At the customer site, some <INPUT type="TEXT"> elements showed up with a
    white background on one machine running IE6. I didn't have a chance to
    investigate further. Highlighting the white on white entered text showed
    it was there, just invisible

    Further madness occurred when on this machine a form containing about 10
    of such inputs, that as far as I know were identical HTML, showed up
    with some white and some green background.

    My own test machine running AFAICT the same IE6 version does NOT display
    this problem.

    Her is a code snippet that gave some fields white, some green:-


    <TABLE width=90% border="0">
    <TR><TD align="right">Name:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    maxlength="32"name ="name" value=""></td>

    <TD align="right">Phone:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text" name=
    "phone" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    </TR><TR>
    <TD align="right">Address 1:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    name="address1" maxlength="30" value=""></td>
    <TD align="right">Mobile Phone:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT
    type="text" name=" phone2" maxlength="30" value=""></td>
    </TR><TR>
    <TD align="right">Address 2:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    name="address2" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    <TD align="right">Fax:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    name="fax" maxlength="32" value=""></td>

    </TR><TR>
    <TD align="right">Address 3:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    name="address3" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    <TD align="right">Email:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    name="email" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    </TR><TR>
    <TD align="right">Town:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    name="town" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    <TD align="right">Web:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    name="web" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    </TR><TR>

    <TD align="right">County/state:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT
    type="text" name="county" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    <TD align="right">Credit Limit:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT
    type="text" name="credit_limit" maxlength="32" value="0"></td>
    </TR><TR>
    <TD align="right">Post/ZIP code:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT
    type="text" name="postcode" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    <TD align="right">Status:</TD>
    <TD align="left">
    Cash<input type="radio" name="credit_status" value="cash" checked>

    Credit<input type="radio" name="credit_status" value="credit" >
    On Hold<input type="radio" name="credit_status" value="hold" >
    </td>
    </TR>


    At the least I would have thought that this would override any other
    styles - from the relevant stylesheet.


    INPUT, TEXTAREA, SELECT, OPTION {
    font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
    padding: 2px;
    color: white;
    font-size: 12px;
    background-color: #60a060;

    }

    No HTML errors or warnings are given: No errors are shown..


    Any ideas? graphics issue maybe?
    The Natural Philosopher, Oct 26, 2007
    #1
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  2. The Natural Philosopher

    David Mark Guest

    On Oct 26, 4:56 am, The Natural Philosopher <> wrote:
    > Another extremely weird feature from iE6
    >
    > I have a site, whose predominant colors are green background with white
    > writing.
    >
    > There is a style sheet with many styles, of which all either specify a
    > green background, or don't specify any. Body defaults to green.
    >
    > At the customer site, some <INPUT type="TEXT"> elements showed up with a
    > white background on one machine running IE6. I didn't have a chance to
    > investigate further. Highlighting the white on white entered text showed
    > it was there, just invisible
    >
    > Further madness occurred when on this machine a form containing about 10
    > of such inputs, that as far as I know were identical HTML, showed up
    > with some white and some green background.


    IE changes background colors of text inputs to indicate it has auto-
    fill choices available.

    Regardless, white text on a green background is a bad idea for text
    inputs.

    >
    > My own test machine running AFAICT the same IE6 version does NOT display
    > this problem.
    >
    > Her is a code snippet that gave some fields white, some green:-
    >
    > <TABLE width=90% border="0">
    > <TR><TD align="right">Name:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    > maxlength="32"name ="name" value=""></td>
    >
    > <TD align="right">Phone:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text" name=
    > "phone" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    > </TR><TR>
    > <TD align="right">Address 1:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    > name="address1" maxlength="30" value=""></td>
    > <TD align="right">Mobile Phone:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT
    > type="text" name=" phone2" maxlength="30" value=""></td>
    > </TR><TR>
    > <TD align="right">Address 2:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    > name="address2" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    > <TD align="right">Fax:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    > name="fax" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    >
    > </TR><TR>
    > <TD align="right">Address 3:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    > name="address3" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    > <TD align="right">Email:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    > name="email" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    > </TR><TR>
    > <TD align="right">Town:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    > name="town" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    > <TD align="right">Web:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    > name="web" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    > </TR><TR>
    >
    > <TD align="right">County/state:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT
    > type="text" name="county" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    > <TD align="right">Credit Limit:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT
    > type="text" name="credit_limit" maxlength="32" value="0"></td>
    > </TR><TR>
    > <TD align="right">Post/ZIP code:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT
    > type="text" name="postcode" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    > <TD align="right">Status:</TD>
    > <TD align="left">
    > Cash<input type="radio" name="credit_status" value="cash" checked>
    >
    > Credit<input type="radio" name="credit_status" value="credit" >
    > On Hold<input type="radio" name="credit_status" value="hold" >
    > </td>


    Why the sudden change of case?

    > </TR>
    >


    Regardless of colors, this is an inaccessible mess. Lose the table,
    add labels, etc. Try tabbing through it and you will get the idea.

    > At the least I would have thought that this would override any other
    > styles - from the relevant stylesheet.
    >
    > INPUT, TEXTAREA, SELECT, OPTION {
    > font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
    > padding: 2px;
    > color: white;
    > font-size: 12px;
    > background-color: #60a060;
    >


    Verdana is not appropriate for a Web page. 12px Verdana is even less
    appropriate. Verdana is a relatively large font, which may or may not
    be legible at 12px. When missing, its replacement will invariably be
    a smaller font, which is less likely to be legible at 12px.
    Regardless of the font, never size text with pixel units (IE won't
    scale it.)

    > }
    >
    > No HTML errors or warnings are given: No errors are shown..


    The HTML doesn't look valid to me. And none of this has anything to
    do with JavaScript. You should submit your deezyne to CSS and/or HTML
    groups for further assistance.
    David Mark, Oct 26, 2007
    #2
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  3. The Natural Philosopher

    Espen Koht Guest

    In article <>,
    David Mark <> wrote:

    > Verdana is not appropriate for a Web page. 12px Verdana is even less
    > appropriate. Verdana is a relatively large font, which may or may not
    > be legible at 12px.


    Care to make this argument more coherent? Verdana is designed for
    legibility on computer screens and by all accounts achieves this, even
    at small sizes.
    Espen Koht, Oct 26, 2007
    #3
  4. David Mark wrote:
    > On Oct 26, 4:56 am, The Natural Philosopher <> wrote:
    >> Another extremely weird feature from iE6
    >>
    >> I have a site, whose predominant colors are green background with white
    >> writing.
    >>
    >> There is a style sheet with many styles, of which all either specify a
    >> green background, or don't specify any. Body defaults to green.
    >>
    >> At the customer site, some <INPUT type="TEXT"> elements showed up with a
    >> white background on one machine running IE6. I didn't have a chance to
    >> investigate further. Highlighting the white on white entered text showed
    >> it was there, just invisible
    >>
    >> Further madness occurred when on this machine a form containing about 10
    >> of such inputs, that as far as I know were identical HTML, showed up
    >> with some white and some green background.

    >
    > IE changes background colors of text inputs to indicate it has auto-
    > fill choices available.
    >


    Hmm.

    > Regardless, white text on a green background is a bad idea for text
    > inputs.
    >


    Why? It looks great and has good contrast..

    >> My own test machine running AFAICT the same IE6 version does NOT display
    >> this problem.
    >>
    >> Her is a code snippet that gave some fields white, some green:-
    >>
    >> <TABLE width=90% border="0">
    >> <TR><TD align="right">Name:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    >> maxlength="32"name ="name" value=""></td>
    >>
    >> <TD align="right">Phone:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text" name=
    >> "phone" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    >> </TR><TR>
    >> <TD align="right">Address 1:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    >> name="address1" maxlength="30" value=""></td>
    >> <TD align="right">Mobile Phone:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT
    >> type="text" name=" phone2" maxlength="30" value=""></td>
    >> </TR><TR>
    >> <TD align="right">Address 2:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    >> name="address2" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    >> <TD align="right">Fax:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    >> name="fax" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    >>
    >> </TR><TR>
    >> <TD align="right">Address 3:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    >> name="address3" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    >> <TD align="right">Email:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    >> name="email" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    >> </TR><TR>
    >> <TD align="right">Town:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    >> name="town" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    >> <TD align="right">Web:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    >> name="web" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    >> </TR><TR>
    >>
    >> <TD align="right">County/state:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT
    >> type="text" name="county" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    >> <TD align="right">Credit Limit:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT
    >> type="text" name="credit_limit" maxlength="32" value="0"></td>
    >> </TR><TR>
    >> <TD align="right">Post/ZIP code:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT
    >> type="text" name="postcode" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    >> <TD align="right">Status:</TD>
    >> <TD align="left">
    >> Cash<input type="radio" name="credit_status" value="cash" checked>
    >>
    >> Credit<input type="radio" name="credit_status" value="credit" >
    >> On Hold<input type="radio" name="credit_status" value="hold" >
    >> </td>

    >
    > Why the sudden change of case?


    Why not?

    I use different cases to help debug actually - useful when PHP
    generation is spewing out a load of similar items.

    It makes <TaBlE> or <tR> a bit easier t spot than making it all look the
    same.

    >
    >> </TR>
    >>

    >
    > Regardless of colors, this is an inaccessible mess. Lose the table,
    > add labels, etc. Try tabbing through it and you will get the idea.
    >


    Why? it works the way I want it to..

    >> At the least I would have thought that this would override any other
    >> styles - from the relevant stylesheet.
    >>
    >> INPUT, TEXTAREA, SELECT, OPTION {
    >> font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
    >> padding: 2px;
    >> color: white;
    >> font-size: 12px;
    >> background-color: #60a060;
    >>

    >
    > Verdana is not appropriate for a Web page. 12px Verdana is even less
    > appropriate. Verdana is a relatively large font, which may or may not
    > be legible at 12px. When missing, its replacement will invariably be
    > a smaller font, which is less likely to be legible at 12px.
    > Regardless of the font, never size text with pixel units (IE won't
    > scale it.)
    >


    I noticed that ;-)

    However it looks OK to me.


    >> }
    >>
    >> No HTML errors or warnings are given: No errors are shown..

    >
    > The HTML doesn't look valid to me. And none of this has anything to
    > do with JavaScript. You should submit your deezyne to CSS and/or HTML
    > groups for further assistance.
    >


    MM. No errors shown tho.
    Not HTML./CS or anything.
    The Natural Philosopher, Oct 26, 2007
    #4
  5. Espen Koht wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > David Mark <> wrote:
    >
    >> Verdana is not appropriate for a Web page. 12px Verdana is even less
    >> appropriate. Verdana is a relatively large font, which may or may not
    >> be legible at 12px.

    >
    > Care to make this argument more coherent? Verdana is designed for
    > legibility on computer screens and by all accounts achieves this, even
    > at small sizes.


    Exactly.

    When looking for a legible small no serif font, we went through a load
    of options testing against IE5,6,7 Firefox and safari, and that
    particular one came up looking decent.
    The Natural Philosopher, Oct 26, 2007
    #5
  6. The Natural Philosopher

    David Mark Guest

    On Oct 26, 6:56 am, Espen Koht <> wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > David Mark <> wrote:
    >
    > > Verdana is not appropriate for a Web page. 12px Verdana is even less
    > > appropriate. Verdana is a relatively large font, which may or may not
    > > be legible at 12px.

    >
    > Care to make this argument more coherent? Verdana is designed for
    > legibility on computer screens and by all accounts achieves this, even
    > at small sizes.


    It is not available on all platforms. Ask about this in a CSS group
    as this is off-topic here.
    David Mark, Oct 26, 2007
    #6
  7. The Natural Philosopher

    David Mark Guest

    On Oct 26, 6:58 am, The Natural Philosopher <> wrote:
    > David Mark wrote:
    > > On Oct 26, 4:56 am, The Natural Philosopher <> wrote:
    > >> Another extremely weird feature from iE6

    >
    > >> I have a site, whose predominant colors are green background with white
    > >> writing.

    >
    > >> There is a style sheet with many styles, of which all either specify a
    > >> green background, or don't specify any. Body defaults to green.

    >
    > >> At the customer site, some <INPUT type="TEXT"> elements showed up with a
    > >> white background on one machine running IE6. I didn't have a chance to
    > >> investigate further. Highlighting the white on white entered text showed
    > >> it was there, just invisible

    >
    > >> Further madness occurred when on this machine a form containing about 10
    > >> of such inputs, that as far as I know were identical HTML, showed up
    > >> with some white and some green background.

    >
    > > IE changes background colors of text inputs to indicate it has auto-
    > > fill choices available.

    >
    > Hmm.
    >
    > > Regardless, white text on a green background is a bad idea for text
    > > inputs.

    >
    > Why? It looks great and has good contrast..
    >


    Dark on light is harder to read than light on dark. Also, the cursor
    is normally a dark color.

    Your particular choices are sub-standard in terms of contrast (color
    and brightness.)

    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >> My own test machine running AFAICT the same IE6 version does NOT display
    > >> this problem.

    >
    > >> Her is a code snippet that gave some fields white, some green:-

    >
    > >> <TABLE width=90% border="0">
    > >> <TR><TD align="right">Name:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    > >> maxlength="32"name ="name" value=""></td>

    >
    > >> <TD align="right">Phone:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text" name=
    > >> "phone" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    > >> </TR><TR>
    > >> <TD align="right">Address 1:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    > >> name="address1" maxlength="30" value=""></td>
    > >> <TD align="right">Mobile Phone:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT
    > >> type="text" name=" phone2" maxlength="30" value=""></td>
    > >> </TR><TR>
    > >> <TD align="right">Address 2:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    > >> name="address2" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    > >> <TD align="right">Fax:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    > >> name="fax" maxlength="32" value=""></td>

    >
    > >> </TR><TR>
    > >> <TD align="right">Address 3:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    > >> name="address3" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    > >> <TD align="right">Email:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    > >> name="email" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    > >> </TR><TR>
    > >> <TD align="right">Town:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    > >> name="town" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    > >> <TD align="right">Web:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    > >> name="web" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    > >> </TR><TR>

    >
    > >> <TD align="right">County/state:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT
    > >> type="text" name="county" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    > >> <TD align="right">Credit Limit:</TD><TD align="left"><INPUT
    > >> type="text" name="credit_limit" maxlength="32" value="0"></td>
    > >> </TR><TR>
    > >> <TD align="right">Post/ZIP code:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT
    > >> type="text" name="postcode" maxlength="32" value=""></td>
    > >> <TD align="right">Status:</TD>
    > >> <TD align="left">
    > >> Cash<input type="radio" name="credit_status" value="cash" checked>

    >
    > >> Credit<input type="radio" name="credit_status" value="credit" >
    > >> On Hold<input type="radio" name="credit_status" value="hold" >
    > >> </td>

    >
    > > Why the sudden change of case?

    >
    > Why not?
    >


    It is silly to have opening tags that don't match their closing
    counterparts.

    > I use different cases to help debug actually - useful when PHP
    > generation is spewing out a load of similar items.
    >
    > It makes <TaBlE> or <tR> a bit easier t spot than making it all look the
    > same.
    >


    If you must do that, make the closing tags the same.

    >
    >
    > >> </TR>

    >
    > > Regardless of colors, this is an inaccessible mess. Lose the table,
    > > add labels, etc. Try tabbing through it and you will get the idea.

    >
    > Why? it works the way I want it to..


    You don't design pages based on what you want. And do you really want
    to enter a name, then a phone number, then address 1, then another
    phone number, then address 2, etc.?

    Furthermore, screen reader users will never be able to make sense of
    that table.

    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >> At the least I would have thought that this would override any other
    > >> styles - from the relevant stylesheet.

    >
    > >> INPUT, TEXTAREA, SELECT, OPTION {
    > >> font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
    > >> padding: 2px;
    > >> color: white;
    > >> font-size: 12px;
    > >> background-color: #60a060;

    >
    > > Verdana is not appropriate for a Web page. 12px Verdana is even less
    > > appropriate. Verdana is a relatively large font, which may or may not
    > > be legible at 12px. When missing, its replacement will invariably be
    > > a smaller font, which is less likely to be legible at 12px.
    > > Regardless of the font, never size text with pixel units (IE won't
    > > scale it.)

    >
    > I noticed that ;-)
    >
    > However it looks OK to me.


    What looks okay on your monitor is of no concern (unless you are to be
    the sole user.)

    >
    > >> }

    >
    > >> No HTML errors or warnings are given: No errors are shown..

    >
    > > The HTML doesn't look valid to me. And none of this has anything to
    > > do with JavaScript. You should submit your deezyne to CSS and/or HTML
    > > groups for further assistance.

    >
    > MM. No errors shown tho.


    That would depend on your DOCTYPE. I assume you are using HTML
    transitional. Why would you use that for a new page?

    > Not HTML./CS or anything.


    Try an HTML or CSS group for further assistance.
    David Mark, Oct 26, 2007
    #7
  8. The Natural Philosopher

    David Mark Guest

    On Oct 26, 7:00 am, The Natural Philosopher <> wrote:
    > Espen Koht wrote:
    > > In article <>,
    > > David Mark <> wrote:

    >
    > >> Verdana is not appropriate for a Web page. 12px Verdana is even less
    > >> appropriate. Verdana is a relatively large font, which may or may not
    > >> be legible at 12px.

    >
    > > Care to make this argument more coherent? Verdana is designed for
    > > legibility on computer screens and by all accounts achieves this, even
    > > at small sizes.

    >
    > Exactly.


    Off the mark actually.

    >
    > When looking for a legible small no serif font, we went through a load
    > of options testing against IE5,6,7 Firefox and safari, and that
    > particular one came up looking decent.


    On Windows of course. Users of other operating systems will likely
    see a different font, which will be smaller than you intended as you
    based your deezyne on 12px Verdana.
    David Mark, Oct 26, 2007
    #8
  9. The Natural Philosopher

    Erwin Moller Guest

    The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    <snip>

    >>> Her is a code snippet that gave some fields white, some green:-
    >>>
    >>> <TABLE width=90% border="0">
    >>> <TR><TD align="right">Name:</td><TD align="left"><INPUT type="text"
    >>> maxlength="32"name ="name" value=""></td>
    >>>


    Hi,

    Small typo there.
    I doubt it will solve your problem, but you misplaced the space between
    maxlength="32"name ="name".

    Regards,
    Erwin Moller
    Erwin Moller, Oct 26, 2007
    #9
  10. The Natural Philosopher

    rf Guest

    "Espen Koht" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <>,
    > David Mark <> wrote:
    >
    >> Verdana is not appropriate for a Web page. 12px Verdana is even less
    >> appropriate. Verdana is a relatively large font, which may or may not
    >> be legible at 12px.

    >
    > Care to make this argument more coherent? Verdana is designed for
    > legibility on computer screens and by all accounts achieves this, even
    > at small sizes.


    Google will help you here. Search newsgroups.
    rf, Oct 26, 2007
    #10
  11. David Mark wrote:
    > On Oct 26, 6:56 am, Espen Koht <> wrote:
    >> In article <>,
    >> David Mark <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Verdana is not appropriate for a Web page. 12px Verdana is even less
    >>> appropriate. Verdana is a relatively large font, which may or may not
    >>> be legible at 12px.

    >> Care to make this argument more coherent? Verdana is designed for
    >> legibility on computer screens and by all accounts achieves this, even
    >> at small sizes.

    >
    > It is not available on all platforms. Ask about this in a CSS group
    > as this is off-topic here.
    >
    >

    thats why its not the only font specified.
    The Natural Philosopher, Oct 26, 2007
    #11
  12. Espen Koht wrote:
    > David Mark <> wrote:
    >
    >> Verdana is not appropriate for a Web page.


    Of course it is appropriate; AFAIK it was designed for the Web. One should
    take care of the fact that it could not be available, though, and provide
    one or more alternatives, of which the last in the list should be the
    generic `sans-serif' font family name, as recommended in the CSS
    Specification. (That requires the use of CSS of course.)

    >> 12px Verdana is even less appropriate.


    IBTD.

    >> Verdana is a relatively large font,


    Verdana is a typeface especially designed to be legible at small font sizes,
    even with anti-aliasing.

    >> which may or may not be legible at 12px.

    >
    > Care to make this argument more coherent? Verdana is designed for
    > legibility on computer screens and by all accounts achieves this, even
    > at small sizes.


    The actual size of a pixel depends on the display resolution, and
    IE before version 7.0 does not allow scaling of pixel-sized text.
    So David has a small piece of a pix^W point there.


    HTH

    PointedEars
    --
    realism: HTML 4.01 Strict
    evangelism: XHTML 1.0 Strict
    madness: XHTML 1.1 as application/xhtml+xml
    -- Bjoern Hoehrmann
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Oct 26, 2007
    #12
  13. The Natural Philosopher

    Espen Koht Guest

    In article <fBkUi.5547$>,
    "rf" <> wrote:

    >
    > "Espen Koht" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > In article <>,
    > > David Mark <> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Verdana is not appropriate for a Web page. 12px Verdana is even less
    > >> appropriate. Verdana is a relatively large font, which may or may not
    > >> be legible at 12px.

    > >
    > > Care to make this argument more coherent? Verdana is designed for
    > > legibility on computer screens and by all accounts achieves this, even
    > > at small sizes.

    >
    > Google will help you here. Search newsgroups.


    All that google appears to bring up are pages like this:
    <http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html> which are
    similarly incoherent and manages to summarising the argument for "Why
    you should avoid the Verdana font" as "web-authors are recommended to
    avoid using Verdana, at least for the main text of the page". How
    enlightening, but how about some reasoning before you draw your
    conclusion? That said, at least it doesn't make the original claim that
    Verdana may not be legible at these sizes, which simply isn't correct.
    Espen Koht, Oct 26, 2007
    #13
  14. The Natural Philosopher

    David Mark Guest

    On Oct 26, 10:00 am, Espen Koht <> wrote:
    > In article <fBkUi.5547$>,
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > "rf" <> wrote:
    >
    > > "Espen Koht" <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > > > In article <>,
    > > > David Mark <> wrote:

    >
    > > >> Verdana is not appropriate for a Web page. 12px Verdana is even less
    > > >> appropriate. Verdana is a relatively large font, which may or may not
    > > >> be legible at 12px.

    >
    > > > Care to make this argument more coherent? Verdana is designed for
    > > > legibility on computer screens and by all accounts achieves this, even
    > > > at small sizes.

    >
    > > Google will help you here. Search newsgroups.

    >
    > All that google appears to bring up are pages like this:
    > <http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html> which are
    > similarly incoherent and manages to summarising the argument for "Why
    > you should avoid the Verdana font" as "web-authors are recommended to
    > avoid using Verdana, at least for the main text of the page". How
    > enlightening, but how about some reasoning before you draw your
    > conclusion? That said, at least it doesn't make the original claim that
    > Verdana may not be legible at these sizes, which simply isn't correct.


    Go back and re-read my original statement on the subject. You
    completely missed the point, perhaps due to the fact that you snipped
    half of the argument. If you have further questions about fonts, try
    a CSS group.
    David Mark, Oct 26, 2007
    #14
  15. The Natural Philosopher

    David Mark Guest

    On Oct 26, 9:08 am, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <>
    wrote:
    > Espen Koht wrote:
    > > David Mark <> wrote:

    >
    > >> Verdana is not appropriate for a Web page.

    >
    > Of course it is appropriate; AFAIK it was designed for the Web. One should


    It is inappropriate for the Web.

    > take care of the fact that it could not be available, though, and provide
    > one or more alternatives, of which the last in the list should be the
    > generic `sans-serif' font family name, as recommended in the CSS
    > Specification. (That requires the use of CSS of course.)
    >
    > >> 12px Verdana is even less appropriate.

    >
    > IBTD.
    >


    Of course you do.

    > >> Verdana is a relatively large font,

    >
    > Verdana is a typeface especially designed to be legible at small font sizes,
    > even with anti-aliasing.


    It is too big at 100%. That's why most deezyners shrink it down to
    something like 12px or 85% or whatever, clueless to the fact that many
    users will see a replacement font that is smaller than Verdana,
    rendering their carefully tuned presentation illegible.

    >
    > >> which may or may not be legible at 12px.

    >
    > > Care to make this argument more coherent? Verdana is designed for
    > > legibility on computer screens and by all accounts achieves this, even
    > > at small sizes.

    >
    > The actual size of a pixel depends on the display resolution, and
    > IE before version 7.0 does not allow scaling of pixel-sized text.
    > So David has a small piece of a pix^W point there.


    Thanks professor. And just what is a "pix^W?"
    David Mark, Oct 26, 2007
    #15
  16. The Natural Philosopher

    Jules Guest

    On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 04:08:04 -0700, David Mark wrote:
    >> Care to make this argument more coherent? Verdana is designed for
    >> legibility on computer screens and by all accounts achieves this, even
    >> at small sizes.

    >
    > It is not available on all platforms. Ask about this in a CSS group
    > as this is off-topic here.


    Isn't that true of *any* font? I thought the only real guarantee was that
    a browser will have available at least on serif font, one sans-serif, and
    one fixed-width. Beyond that, it's all guesswork...
    Jules, Oct 26, 2007
    #16
  17. The Natural Philosopher

    Jules Guest

    On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 04:28:52 -0700, David Mark wrote:
    > On Windows of course. Users of other operating systems will likely
    > see a different font, which will be smaller than you intended as you
    > based your deezyne on 12px Verdana.


    Will 12px Verdana be bigger than 12px anything else, then?
    Jules, Oct 26, 2007
    #17
  18. The Natural Philosopher

    David Mark Guest

    On Oct 26, 11:49 am, Jules <>
    wrote:
    > On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 04:08:04 -0700, David Mark wrote:
    > >> Care to make this argument more coherent? Verdana is designed for
    > >> legibility on computer screens and by all accounts achieves this, even
    > >> at small sizes.

    >
    > > It is not available on all platforms. Ask about this in a CSS group
    > > as this is off-topic here.

    >
    > Isn't that true of *any* font? I thought the only real guarantee was that


    It is more true of Verdana. And *any* font will not have the same
    issues as Verdana. Google for "Verdana font Web."

    > a browser will have available at least on serif font, one sans-serif, and
    > one fixed-width. Beyond that, it's all guesswork...


    Guesswork has nothing to do with it.
    David Mark, Oct 26, 2007
    #18
  19. The Natural Philosopher

    David Mark Guest

    On Oct 26, 11:51 am, Jules <>
    wrote:
    > On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 04:28:52 -0700, David Mark wrote:
    > > On Windows of course. Users of other operating systems will likely
    > > see a different font, which will be smaller than you intended as you
    > > based your deezyne on 12px Verdana.

    >
    > Will 12px Verdana be bigger than 12px anything else, then?


    Bigger than most.
    David Mark, Oct 26, 2007
    #19
  20. The Natural Philosopher

    David Mark Guest

    On Oct 26, 12:45 pm, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <>
    wrote:
    > Jules wrote:
    > > On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 04:28:52 -0700, David Mark wrote:
    > >> On Windows of course. Users of other operating systems will likely
    > >> see a different font, which will be smaller than you intended as you
    > >> based your deezyne on 12px Verdana.

    >
    > > Will 12px Verdana be bigger than 12px anything else, then?

    >
    > Depends. In contrast to pt-, em- and percent-sized fonts, for px-sized
    > fonts the distance from the descent to the cap will always be as many
    > pixels as the font-size says, provided the font is scalable to that size.
    >
    > I don't know what "deezyne" means, but the fact above is actually a
    > disadvantage, because as I have said before the actual size of a pixel
    > depends on the display resolution. So the higher the display resolution,
    > the smaller the px-sized font will appear (the same person,
    > eye-screen-distance, and display device, no virtual desktops provided).
    >
    > It is unlikely that 12px Verdana would appear bigger than any other
    > 12px-sized font, the same initial conditions provided: font sizes around
    > 12px are likely to be displayed accordingly with fonts that are suited for
    > the Web (it is unlikely that users will use fonts that don't have this
    > property).
    >


    You are wrong. See for yourself:

    <div style="font-family:verdana;font-size:12px">The quick brown fox
    jumped over the lazy dog</div>
    <div style="font-family:arial;font-size:12px">The quick brown fox
    jumped over the lazy dog</div>
    David Mark, Oct 26, 2007
    #20
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