prealoding and "_blank" linking

G

gtanasa

Prealoding the visuals for my site is really cool, it loads easier whe
you browse the different pages BUT I also have some links to photos an
other sites which open in new windows for the viewer's convenience AN
my problem is that when you return to my site's window the swap imag
buttons of the navbar and other slices are very slow as if they ar
loading again. If I don't use the _blank option for the link
everything is OK but I find it more elegant to open links in ne
windows, so can anyone give me any clues around this problem?
Thank you in advance
-
gtanas
 
K

Karl Groves

gtanasa said:
Prealoding the visuals for my site is really cool, it loads easier when
you browse the different pages BUT I also have some links to photos and
other sites which open in new windows for the viewer's convenience

Opening new windows *is not* a convenience for the user.

-Karl
 
A

Art Sackett

Karl Groves said:
Opening new windows *is not* a convenience for the user.

Kinda depends upon *why* you're doing it, IMAO. Sometimes it's the best
possible user interface, sometimes it's just annoying crap.

Concept. What a reality.
 
N

Neal

Kinda depends upon *why* you're doing it, IMAO. Sometimes it's the best
possible user interface, sometimes it's just annoying crap.

Can you cite reasons you'd think opening a new window would be preferable?
 
K

Karl Groves

Art Sackett said:
Kinda depends upon *why* you're doing it, IMAO. Sometimes it's the best
possible user interface, sometimes it's just annoying crap.

I've not seen one incidence where it is "the best possible".
I have, in fact, seen users become completely disoriented and frustrated by
them.

-Karl
 
C

Chris Morris

Karl Groves said:
I've not seen one incidence where it is "the best possible".
I have, in fact, seen users become completely disoriented and frustrated by
them.

Hmm. I had a web application [1] which was basically a (potentially)
long form. Information related to filling in the form was available on
other pages (there was just too much of it to fit on the same
page). So, I started with links to the information by the relevant
form controls. You could access them before you started filling in the
form, but people didn't bother.

At this point (no matter what I did to the caching headers to try to
be friendly) _some_ browsers would lose the partially-completed form
information when the user went off to one of these links and then came
back. I got a lot of complaints about this.

Solution: Put *two* links to each resource - one that opens same
window, one that opens new window. No complaints [2]. Proportion of
forms requested but not completed (they needed authentication to
complete, so I could get this fairly accurately) fell. About 5/6 of
hits went for the new window links, but on the other hand it was on
the left of the two links, so this could be mostly people not caring
which link they use.

Yes, _I_ know that a normal link can be opened in a new window in some
browsers by right-click / shift-click / etc. The problem was that the
users *didn't*, and it wasn't practical for me to tell them in this
application, given the number of different ways in different browsers
to do it.

[1] Online voting - preference orders for options/candidates.
[2] Okay, still various complaints/suggestions, but none related to
this.
 
W

Whitecrest

Can you cite reasons you'd think opening a new window would be preferable?

Why? Any reason he could possibly give, you will poo-poo because you do
not feel there is any justifiable reason.
 
W

Whitecrest

I've not seen one incidence where it is "the best possible".
I have, in fact, seen users become completely disoriented and frustrated by
them.

Which is why we are all different. And that is a good thing.
 
M

my-wings

Karl Groves said:
I've not seen one incidence where it is "the best possible".
I have, in fact, seen users become completely disoriented and frustrated by
them.

Well, I'm going to have one on my site. This is because I hate the shopping
cart that I got for free, and I don't have time to learn perl or another
language to correct what I perceive are its defects. So, I'm going low tech
(sort of). If a user wants to order books, he can click on the "order books"
link which will open a new window. In that new window, he can cut and paste
the titles of desired books, and the form will be emailed to me.

I'm opening in a separate window because book buyers like to browse, and
this will enable them to keep the "order" window open while they examine as
many titles as they want. I realize a more sophisticated user could
right-click and "open in a new window" but I suspect many of my customers
won't be that knowledgeable.

This probably won't pass muster as a reason for opening a new window, but
it's the best interim solution I can think of that will enable me to get on
with selling books without becoming a programmer first. I just can't wait
for life to get perfect before I do something, lol.

Alice
 
K

Karl Groves

my-wings said:
Well, I'm going to have one on my site. This is because I hate the shopping
cart that I got for free, and I don't have time to learn perl or another
language to correct what I perceive are its defects. So, I'm going low tech
(sort of). If a user wants to order books, he can click on the "order books"
link which will open a new window. In that new window, he can cut and paste
the titles of desired books, and the form will be emailed to me.

I'm opening in a separate window because book buyers like to browse, and
this will enable them to keep the "order" window open while they examine as
many titles as they want. I realize a more sophisticated user could
right-click and "open in a new window" but I suspect many of my customers
won't be that knowledgeable.

This probably won't pass muster as a reason for opening a new window, but
it's the best interim solution I can think of that will enable me to get on
with selling books without becoming a programmer first. I just can't wait
for life to get perfect before I do something, lol.

Alice

You can mark this day in your calendar as the day you were officially told
that you've made the wrong decision.
Then, when you've finally chosen to *hire* someone who knows WTF they're
doing and you finally begin to turn a reasonable profit, you can then count
the days back to today and dream of what could have been bought with the
money you could be making had you made the right decision today.

When you ask a random person on the street where they'd go to order books
online, what do you think they say? Amazon.com
Why don't they say <insert whatever Alice's site here> ?
Well, there's countless reasons, not the least of which is their advertising
budget and longevity.

So, what can you offer that Amazon can't? Do you carry titles that they
don't? Maybe, but probably not. Do you offer better shipping options? No
friggin way. Do you offer better payment options? Definitely not (an
e-mailed form? C'mon.).

The truth of the matter is, any time you get an order, it will be due to one
thing only: That you offered exactly what they were looking for at the exact
moment that they were looking for it and they weren't about to go looking
somewhere else. This isn't all bad. In fact, this is the reason why 98% of
people use the Internet, anyway - to look for something specific.

What it boils down to is that considering the fact that you'll never be able
to compete with Amazon, you MUST do everything in your power to make your
site easy to use. But here's the problem - It appears to me that you're
ignorantly planning on doing everything you can to NOT succeed.

First and foremost is this business of "In that new window, he can cut and
paste the titles of desired books, and the form will be emailed to me."
You're out of your mind if you think users are going to cut & paste titles
of books into a form. And then what? Are you going to call them to get their
credit card? Hell, at that point they coulda driven to the nearest Barnes
and Noble and picked up the friggin thing.

You say "I'm opening in a separate window because book buyers like to
browse"
How do you know this? Do you have experience watching "book buyers" interact
with book websites? I doubt it. Because if you had, you'd have noticed that
your new window is an unequivocal nuisance. If you'd like to give your
users the ability to compare titles, then you need to program an interface
that can do so. You're right in saying that people like comparing items
before they buy, but vomiting new windows on the screen is definitely NOT
the answer.
it's the best interim solution I can think of that will enable me to get on
with selling books without becoming a programmer first
The best "interim solution" is to hire someone that knows what they're
doing. It isn't what you want to hear, but it is nevertheless the truth. If
you're a brick & mortar book store, put up a page on the web that lists
directions, hot titles, and a call-to-action that induces the visitor to
call. In the meantime have an EXPERIENCED professional working on doing the
site correctly. This is your *business* we're talking about here!

-KArl
 
M

my-wings

Karl Groves said:
You can mark this day in your calendar as the day you were officially told
that you've made the wrong decision.
Then, when you've finally chosen to *hire* someone who knows WTF they're
doing and you finally begin to turn a reasonable profit, you can then count
the days back to today and dream of what could have been bought with the
money you could be making had you made the right decision today.

When you ask a random person on the street where they'd go to order books
online, what do you think they say? Amazon.com
Why don't they say <insert whatever Alice's site here> ?
Well, there's countless reasons, not the least of which is their advertising
budget and longevity.

So, what can you offer that Amazon can't? Do you carry titles that they
don't? Maybe, but probably not. Do you offer better shipping options? No
friggin way. Do you offer better payment options? Definitely not (an
e-mailed form? C'mon.).

The truth of the matter is, any time you get an order, it will be due to one
thing only: That you offered exactly what they were looking for at the exact
moment that they were looking for it and they weren't about to go looking
somewhere else. This isn't all bad. In fact, this is the reason why 98% of
people use the Internet, anyway - to look for something specific.

What it boils down to is that considering the fact that you'll never be able
to compete with Amazon, you MUST do everything in your power to make your
site easy to use. But here's the problem - It appears to me that you're
ignorantly planning on doing everything you can to NOT succeed.

First and foremost is this business of "In that new window, he can cut and
paste the titles of desired books, and the form will be emailed to me."
You're out of your mind if you think users are going to cut & paste titles
of books into a form. And then what? Are you going to call them to get their
credit card? Hell, at that point they coulda driven to the nearest Barnes
and Noble and picked up the friggin thing.

You say "I'm opening in a separate window because book buyers like to
browse"
How do you know this? Do you have experience watching "book buyers" interact
with book websites? I doubt it. Because if you had, you'd have noticed that
your new window is an unequivocal nuisance. If you'd like to give your
users the ability to compare titles, then you need to program an interface
that can do so. You're right in saying that people like comparing items
before they buy, but vomiting new windows on the screen is definitely NOT
the answer.
on
with selling books without becoming a programmer first
The best "interim solution" is to hire someone that knows what they're
doing. It isn't what you want to hear, but it is nevertheless the truth. If
you're a brick & mortar book store, put up a page on the web that lists
directions, hot titles, and a call-to-action that induces the visitor to
call. In the meantime have an EXPERIENCED professional working on doing the
site correctly. This is your *business* we're talking about here!

Thanks for your opinion, Karl. I couldn't agree with you more, if I were
taking on Amazon.com. But I'm not. Right now, I'm having too much fun
learning to use CSS and recoding my website to be in compliance with HTML
4.01 strict. So far, the only thing that doesn't validate is that
"target=_blank" thing, and I know it's not optimum. If anyone can help me
with that other question I've posted, though, I'll be ready to put up my
non-sales content in the new format.

Then I'll revamp the Access data base where I store my inventory so it will
automatically generate my product pages and a Froogle feed. THEN I'll be
ready to tackle PHP and MySQL, I think....or maybe try to understand the
perl shopping cart they gave me. In fact, even though I love putting scarce
and out-of-print books in the hands of new owners....it's possible that
selling books is only an excuse to hang out in a newsgroup like this and do
this other fun stuff. What do you think?

Alice
not giving up my day job yet, lol
 
A

Art Sackett

Neal said:
Can you cite reasons you'd think opening a new window would be preferable?

1. Preservation of canvas for data, with controls for manipulating
that data in a child window, e.g. intranet inventory control.
2. Transient presentation needs, e.g. help systems, product
comparison charts.

My goal is always to get the user from point of entry to completion of
task as easily/efficiently as possible. If a child window will aid me
in accomplishing that goal, so be it.
 
A

Art Sackett

Karl Groves said:
I've not seen one incidence where it is "the best possible".

I accept that you haven't seen one instance in which you thought a
child window provided the best possible interface. I'll admit that I've
seen many misapplications of the concept, as well. I don't hold any
dogmatic beliefs about the nature of child windows.
I have, in fact, seen users become completely disoriented and frustrated by
them.

As have I -- more often attributable to the implementation than to the
concept.
 
A

Adrienne

Thanks for your opinion, Karl. I couldn't agree with you more, if I
were taking on Amazon.com. But I'm not. Right now, I'm having too much
fun learning to use CSS and recoding my website to be in compliance
with HTML 4.01 strict. So far, the only thing that doesn't validate is
that "target=_blank" thing, and I know it's not optimum. If anyone can
help me with that other question I've posted, though, I'll be ready to
put up my non-sales content in the new format.

Seriously, please do not open new windows using target="_blank". That
could potentially spawn many, many windows, and could a) confuse the
visitor, b) use up the visitors precious CPU resources. If you _MUST_ open
a new window, at least let the user know you are going to do so, and let
the user know that a new window will be opened each time.
Then I'll revamp the Access data base where I store my inventory so it
will automatically generate my product pages and a Froogle feed.

Wait... you're going to let _Access_ generate product pages? No... please
say it isn't so, Access is worse than Word... If you're using Access, you
might be able to use ASP which sometimes uses Access for its database

THEN
I'll be ready to tackle PHP and MySQL, I think....or maybe try to
understand the perl shopping cart they gave me.

A shopping cart is really pretty easy when you think about it. Usually, in
order to use a shopping cart, you are required to select a username,
password, etc. Then each time you are something to the shopping cart, the
database probably looks something like: user=100&product=1
In fact, even though I
love putting scarce and out-of-print books in the hands of new
owners....it's possible that selling books is only an excuse to hang
out in a newsgroup like this and do this other fun stuff. What do you
think?

I love old, out-of-print books. I recently bought The American Woman's
Cookbook, 1942, that I had when I was a teenager (no I was not a teenager
in 1942, I wasn't even an egg in my mother). I'm on a quest now for some
cookbook series that I've had and lost.
Alice
not giving up my day job yet, lol

If you need help, let me know. I love old books.
 
A

Art Sackett

Whitecrest said:

8 said:
Why? Any reason he could possibly give, you will poo-poo because you do
not feel there is any justifiable reason.

If he wants to poo-poo my reasons, that's fine. My feelings won't be
hurt.

Oh, yeah: Long time no see! I hope all's well in your world. :)
 
M

my-wings

Adrienne said:
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "my-wings"
<[email protected]> writing in


Seriously, please do not open new windows using target="_blank". That
could potentially spawn many, many windows, and could a) confuse the
visitor, b) use up the visitors precious CPU resources. If you _MUST_ open
a new window, at least let the user know you are going to do so, and let
the user know that a new window will be opened each time.

Yes...the link that opens that window is clearly labeled so the visitor
won't get a surprise.
Wait... you're going to let _Access_ generate product pages? No... please
say it isn't so, Access is worse than Word... If you're using Access, you
might be able to use ASP which sometimes uses Access for its database

Well, I don't actually let Access generate the pages directly. I didn't
spend all this time learning CSS to let Microsoft muck it up! (Maybe I'm a
bit of a control freak, or maybe I just don't like things generated when I'm
not exactly sure how they work. I'm doing my HTML in notepad, for instance.)
What I do is use Access to store the book info, and then use some VBA (which
I'm also learning as I go) to BUILD a page with the HTML I want in it.
That's why I had to get my design for the site set before I re-worked my
data base -- so I would know what I needed for code. I know there are better
ways to do everything I'm doing, but I really have fun learning this stuff,
and there is only so much I can comprehend at once. I would rather take it
slow, and enjoy the process than beat myself up for not being able to do
everything all at once.

THEN

A shopping cart is really pretty easy when you think about it. Usually, in
order to use a shopping cart, you are required to select a username,
password, etc. Then each time you are something to the shopping cart, the
database probably looks something like: user=100&product=1

Well, I did actually get the shopping cart working, but it was free, and I
guess you get what you pay for. The most irritating thing about it was the
search function. It would make a list of inventory, but the only choice the
user had was to add the item to the shopping cart. There was no way to click
on a link and view the item description. (I'm absolutely serious. I tracked
this down to the provider site, and that's what the specs said. Who would
buy anything, let alone an out-of-print book, based on title only, without
being able to read a description?) Other problems included a very clunky
option for calculating shipping by weight and the fact that the perl script
created all the pages based on fields stored in txt files, and google wasn't
spidering the site. I'm sure most of this is fixable if you know perl, but
I'm just not ready to learn that yet.
I love old, out-of-print books. I recently bought The American Woman's
Cookbook, 1942, that I had when I was a teenager (no I was not a teenager
in 1942, I wasn't even an egg in my mother). I'm on a quest now for some
cookbook series that I've had and lost.


If you need help, let me know. I love old books.

Thanks. I'm sure I'll be back, lol.

Please feel free to contact me off list (un-munging the reply address is
pretty obvious) if you'd like to continue the book discussion. I can point
you to some good search sites if you're looking for specific titles.
Learning the HTML and web stuff is fun, but books are my passion. I'm
probably taking so long getting my site going because I don't really want to
part with them!

Alice
 
G

Guest

Neal said:
Can you cite reasons you'd think opening a new window would be preferable?

I have a genealogy web page and one of the feature is a listing or ancestral photos, there are in excess of 75! Assuming most people interested in genalogy are not young buck it's save to assume they have dial up modems. Why then, should they expected to reload the index file every time they view a photo?

Doesn't make good sense to me.

Also, I have a list of off-site URLs that offer this and that. I suspect users mitght want to visit and see that the link has to offer. If they stay, no big deal they just have another window open. Is that a burden on their operating system? If they decide not to say they don't have to reaload my Index.html file.

Doesn't make good sense to me.

Don
Username munged by FixNews
 
K

Karl Groves

preferable?

I have a genealogy web page and one of the feature is a listing or
ancestral photos, there are in excess of 75! Assuming most people
interested in genalogy are not young buck it's save to assume they have dial
up modems. Why then, should they expected to reload the index file every
time they view a photo?
Doesn't make good sense to me.

Once the originating page has been downloaded, it and all the object it
contains/ links to are placed in the browser's cache.
Even though you think you're saving them from having to download stuff,
you're actually having an opposite effect.

-Karl
 
K

Karl Groves

Karl Groves said:
ancestral photos, there are in excess of 75! Assuming most people
interested in genalogy are not young buck it's save to assume they have dial
up modems. Why then, should they expected to reload the index file every
time they view a photo?

Once the originating page has been downloaded, it and all the object it
contains/ links to are placed in the browser's cache.

Addendum - by "links to", I was referring to the images, style sheet(s), and
any external scripts.

-Karl
 

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