Printing why's (poignant) guide to ruby

Discussion in 'Ruby' started by Richard Dale, Feb 13, 2005.

  1. Richard Dale

    Richard Dale Guest

    I'd like to try ruby on non-programmers teaching them using why's amazing
    guide, to see how it works as a beginner's language. I showed some ruby
    code to my 45 year old lodger who has never used a computer or seen a
    computer program. He said "it looks like English, I thought computer
    programming was maths". And he is especially impressed with the cartoon
    foxes in Chapter 3, they have got to be the killer feature..

    But it would be great to be able to print the guide out as a PDF. Is there a
    version with markup available, so it can translated to a PDF to make it
    easier to print?

    -- Richard
     
    Richard Dale, Feb 13, 2005
    #1
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  2. Richard Dale <> wrote:
    > I'd like to try ruby on non-programmers teaching them using why's amazing
    > guide, to see how it works as a beginner's language. I showed some ruby
    > code to my 45 year old lodger who has never used a computer or seen a
    > computer program. He said "it looks like English, I thought computer
    > programming was maths". And he is especially impressed with the cartoon
    > foxes in Chapter 3, they have got to be the killer feature..


    Oh you think Ruby might be suitable for a total beginner?

    I have the same problem. My dad wants to learn programming. I
    thought maybe Python or even Visual Basic (or one of the KDE
    implementations) might be more suitable. He's going to be pretty much
    learning on his own, so a suitable book and references must be
    available. With something like Visual Basic, he'll probably be able
    to get immediate and more gratifying results as well, which should
    help keep up the motivation.

    I've seen some interesting beginner books for Python that make it a
    strong contender as well. One thing that might be a problem at first
    is the whitespace issue...

    Somehow I'm not sure that Ruby would fit the bill here but I'm
    interested in hearing of other's experiences/opinions. I never
    considered/read why's guide before but I'll have to take a look now.

    Cheers,
    Navin.
     
    Navindra Umanee, Feb 13, 2005
    #2
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  3. i'm really puzzled by this.
    why python? or even worse. vb??!!

    Alex

    On Feb 13, 2005, at 11:08 PM, Navindra Umanee wrote:

    > Richard Dale <> wrote:
    >> I'd like to try ruby on non-programmers teaching them using why's
    >> amazing
    >> guide, to see how it works as a beginner's language. I showed some
    >> ruby
    >> code to my 45 year old lodger who has never used a computer or seen a
    >> computer program. He said "it looks like English, I thought computer
    >> programming was maths". And he is especially impressed with the
    >> cartoon
    >> foxes in Chapter 3, they have got to be the killer feature..

    >
    > Oh you think Ruby might be suitable for a total beginner?
    >
    > I have the same problem. My dad wants to learn programming. I
    > thought maybe Python or even Visual Basic (or one of the KDE
    > implementations) might be more suitable. He's going to be pretty much
    > learning on his own, so a suitable book and references must be
    > available. With something like Visual Basic, he'll probably be able
    > to get immediate and more gratifying results as well, which should
    > help keep up the motivation.
    >
    > I've seen some interesting beginner books for Python that make it a
    > strong contender as well. One thing that might be a problem at first
    > is the whitespace issue...
    >
    > Somehow I'm not sure that Ruby would fit the bill here but I'm
    > interested in hearing of other's experiences/opinions. I never
    > considered/read why's guide before but I'll have to take a look now.
    >
    > Cheers,
    > Navin.
    >
     
    Alexander Kellett, Feb 13, 2005
    #3
  4. Richard Dale

    Joao Pedrosa Guest

    Hi,

    On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:08:53 +0900, Navindra Umanee
    <> wrote:
    > Richard Dale <> wrote:
    > > I'd like to try ruby on non-programmers teaching them using why's amazing
    > > guide, to see how it works as a beginner's language. I showed some ruby
    > > code to my 45 year old lodger who has never used a computer or seen a
    > > computer program. He said "it looks like English, I thought computer
    > > programming was maths". And he is especially impressed with the cartoon
    > > foxes in Chapter 3, they have got to be the killer feature..

    >
    > Oh you think Ruby might be suitable for a total beginner?
    >
    > I have the same problem. My dad wants to learn programming. I
    > thought maybe Python or even Visual Basic (or one of the KDE
    > implementations) might be more suitable. He's going to be pretty much
    > learning on his own, so a suitable book and references must be
    > available. With something like Visual Basic, he'll probably be able
    > to get immediate and more gratifying results as well, which should
    > help keep up the motivation.
    >
    > I've seen some interesting beginner books for Python that make it a
    > strong contender as well. One thing that might be a problem at first
    > is the whitespace issue...
    >
    > Somehow I'm not sure that Ruby would fit the bill here but I'm
    > interested in hearing of other's experiences/opinions. I never
    > considered/read why's guide before but I'll have to take a look now.


    Visual Basic too needs some thinking to put together a program. I
    would say that the event-based programming of tools like VB is hard
    enough to understand to make them suitable to total beginners, unless
    they are kids who are not afraid of trying out things. :)

    I think that the development of non-gui apps is generally easier to
    get a grasp of. The one execution path of such apps should help a
    beginner understand what programming is all about (you wish :p).

    Anyways, there are some materials on the net that you could use. Of
    course that you will need to help him setup everything.

    I would go with Ruby. :)

    Regards,
    Joao
     
    Joao Pedrosa, Feb 13, 2005
    #4
  5. Alexander Kellett, 13/2/2005 19:17:
    > i'm really puzzled by this.
    > why python? or even worse. vb??!!
    >
    > On Feb 13, 2005, at 11:08 PM, Navindra Umanee wrote:
    >
    >> Richard Dale <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> I'd like to try ruby on non-programmers teaching them using why's
    >>> amazing
    >>> guide, to see how it works as a beginner's language. I showed some ruby
    >>> code to my 45 year old lodger who has never used a computer or seen a
    >>> computer program. He said "it looks like English, I thought computer
    >>> programming was maths". And he is especially impressed with the cartoon
    >>> foxes in Chapter 3, they have got to be the killer feature..

    >>
    >>
    >> Oh you think Ruby might be suitable for a total beginner?
    >>
    >> I have the same problem. My dad wants to learn programming. I
    >> thought maybe Python or even Visual Basic (or one of the KDE
    >> implementations) might be more suitable. He's going to be pretty much
    >> learning on his own, so a suitable book and references must be
    >> available. With something like Visual Basic, he'll probably be able
    >> to get immediate and more gratifying results as well, which should
    >> help keep up the motivation.
    >>
    >> I've seen some interesting beginner books for Python that make it a
    >> strong contender as well. One thing that might be a problem at first
    >> is the whitespace issue...
    >>
    >> Somehow I'm not sure that Ruby would fit the bill here but I'm
    >> interested in hearing of other's experiences/opinions. I never
    >> considered/read why's guide before but I'll have to take a look now.



    I think Ruby easier to learn than Python for a beginer.
    Python may be easier for someone migrating from C.
    Both languages are quite easy for the beginners, and people who have
    never programed can do interesting things in the first or second day.
     
    Caio Tiago Oliveira, Feb 13, 2005
    #5
  6. On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 07:08:53AM +0900, Navindra Umanee wrote:
    > Richard Dale <> wrote:
    > > I'd like to try ruby on non-programmers teaching them using why's amazing
    > > guide, to see how it works as a beginner's language. I showed some ruby
    > > code to my 45 year old lodger who has never used a computer or seen a
    > > computer program. He said "it looks like English, I thought computer
    > > programming was maths". And he is especially impressed with the cartoon
    > > foxes in Chapter 3, they have got to be the killer feature..

    >
    > Oh you think Ruby might be suitable for a total beginner?
    >


    I think Ruby would be a great language for a 'total' beginner. First -
    the syntax and "wording" makes look and feel very natural IMO. Second -
    all you need is a text editor and Ruby itself - no confusing steps where
    you have to "make", "compile" or "build" anything. Just "run" your
    program (this is of course true for all scripting languages). Third -
    there is no need to introduce object oriented concepts such as classes
    and objects before the user is ready for them. Compare the standard
    Hello World example in Ruby with one in java:

    Ruby:

    (hello.rb)
    puts "Hello World"

    $> ruby hello.rb

    Java:

    (Hello.java)
    public class Hello {
    public static void main(String[] args) {
    System.out.println("Hello World");
    }
    }

    $>javac Hello.java
    $>java Hello

    The java example prints out the same stuff as the Ruby example, but the
    novice user would think: "What is a class?", "What is 'public'?", "What
    is 'static'?", "What about that 'args' stuff?", "Where did that
    Hello.class file come from, and why do I run 'java Hello' and not 'java
    Hello.class'?" etc.

    //Anders
    --
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    Anders Engström
    http://www.gnejs.net PGP-Key: ED010E7F
    [Your mind is like an umbrella. It doesn't work unless you open it.]
     
    Anders Engström, Feb 13, 2005
    #6
  7. The Ruby user would think "Who puts?" :)

    Michael

    On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:42:57 +0900, Anders Engström <> wrote:
    > On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 07:08:53AM +0900, Navindra Umanee wrote:
    > > Richard Dale <> wrote:
    > > > I'd like to try ruby on non-programmers teaching them using why's amazing
    > > > guide, to see how it works as a beginner's language. I showed some ruby
    > > > code to my 45 year old lodger who has never used a computer or seen a
    > > > computer program. He said "it looks like English, I thought computer
    > > > programming was maths". And he is especially impressed with the cartoon
    > > > foxes in Chapter 3, they have got to be the killer feature..

    > >
    > > Oh you think Ruby might be suitable for a total beginner?
    > >

    >
    > I think Ruby would be a great language for a 'total' beginner. First -
    > the syntax and "wording" makes look and feel very natural IMO. Second -
    > all you need is a text editor and Ruby itself - no confusing steps where
    > you have to "make", "compile" or "build" anything. Just "run" your
    > program (this is of course true for all scripting languages). Third -
    > there is no need to introduce object oriented concepts such as classes
    > and objects before the user is ready for them. Compare the standard
    > Hello World example in Ruby with one in java:
    >
    > Ruby:
    >
    > (hello.rb)
    > puts "Hello World"
    >
    > $> ruby hello.rb
    >
    > Java:
    >
    > (Hello.java)
    > public class Hello {
    > public static void main(String[] args) {
    > System.out.println("Hello World");
    > }
    > }
    >
    > $>javac Hello.java
    > $>java Hello
    >
    > The java example prints out the same stuff as the Ruby example, but the
    > novice user would think: "What is a class?", "What is 'public'?", "What
    > is 'static'?", "What about that 'args' stuff?", "Where did that
    > Hello.class file come from, and why do I run 'java Hello' and not 'java
    > Hello.class'?" etc.
    >
    > //Anders
    > --
    > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    > . Anders Engström
    > . http://www.gnejs.net PGP-Key: ED010E7F
    > . [Your mind is like an umbrella. It doesn't work unless you open it.]
    >
    >
     
    Michael Walter, Feb 13, 2005
    #7
  8. On 2005-02-13 17:17:44 -0500, Alexander Kellett <> said:

    > i'm really puzzled by this.
    > why python? or even worse. vb??!!
    >
    > Alex
    >
    > On Feb 13, 2005, at 11:08 PM, Navindra Umanee wrote:
    >
    >> Richard Dale <> wrote:
    >>> I'd like to try ruby on non-programmers teaching them using why's amazing
    >>> guide, to see how it works as a beginner's language. I showed some ruby
    >>> code to my 45 year old lodger who has never used a computer or seen a
    >>> computer program. He said "it looks like English, I thought computer
    >>> programming was maths". And he is especially impressed with the cartoon
    >>> foxes in Chapter 3, they have got to be the killer feature..

    >>
    >> Oh you think Ruby might be suitable for a total beginner?
    >>
    >> I have the same problem. My dad wants to learn programming. I
    >> thought maybe Python or even Visual Basic (or one of the KDE
    >> implementations) might be more suitable. He's going to be pretty much
    >> learning on his own, so a suitable book and references must be
    >> available. With something like Visual Basic, he'll probably be able
    >> to get immediate and more gratifying results as well, which should
    >> help keep up the motivation.


    I agree that Ruby would make a good "first" language, but I have to
    admit that _why's book probably won't be the best guide for your Dad.
    It's a great book, don't get me wrong, but it's way too, ah,
    avant-guarde for Dad-type people. Unless your dad is an IPod-dancing
    Halo II champion that likes to party all night, that is. :)
     
    Timothy Hunter, Feb 13, 2005
    #8
  9. Michael Walter wrote:
    > The Ruby user would think "Who puts?" :)
    >
    > Michael
    >
    > Anders Engström <> wrote:
    > > Ruby:
    > >
    > > (hello.rb)
    > > puts "Hello World"


    "Hello, world!".display
     
    William James, Feb 13, 2005
    #9
  10. Alexander Kellett <> wrote:
    > i'm really puzzled by this.
    > why python? or even worse. vb??!!


    How is a total beginner going to learn Ruby? By reading Pickaxe? I'm
    not talking about a CS student here. My dad lives half-way around the
    world from me.

    Besides, Python is a more restricted and syntactically uniform
    language. Ruby is more flexible and expressive, but IMHO to really
    understand the code you have to know more CS concepts and have a
    deeper understanding of the syntax than some people like to admit.

    Even though in Ruby you can abuse the syntax or treat it glibly --
    which makes it look like a nice thing for experienced programmers -- I
    think it is better to understand what you are doing first. Python
    forces you to understand these issues.

    I prefer Ruby but I think Python will be easier for a beginner to
    grasp at the beginning, and it has less hurdles as well
    documentation/book-wise -- I even saw one of the beginner books
    describe how to implement a neat graphical game in a few steps.

    And yeah, VB has wizards and stuff on top of plenty of documentation.
    Like I said, quicker gratification can be a good thing. Someone used
    to fancy windows and GUI stuff probably isn't going to be happy stuck
    at the command-line level. Joao makes a good point, of course.

    Cheers,
    Navin.
     
    Navindra Umanee, Feb 13, 2005
    #10
  11. Richard Dale

    Richard Dale Guest

    Alexander Kellett wrote:

    > i'm really puzzled by this.
    > why python? or even worse. vb??!!

    Why do you think they are easier to learn than ruby? I'd just like to try
    teaching non-programmers programming and find out what it is they don't
    know. Or if they don't know much can they get started and learn
    incremently?

    From Alan Kay's recent interview:

    http://acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=273

    "Basically what happened is this vehicle became more and more a programmer’s
    vehicle and less and less a children’s vehicle—the version that got put
    out, Smalltalk ’80, I don’t think it was ever programmed by a child. I
    don’t think it could have been programmed by a child because it had lost
    some of its amenities, even as it gained pragmatic power."

    I don't think Why's is the first in the line of 'cartoon computer science
    books'. I have 'Think about [TLC] Logo - A Graphic Look at Computing with
    Ideas' by John R. Allen, Ruth E. Davis and John F. Johnson. It has great
    cartoons, and is written by serious people (I believe why is very serious
    too - that's why he's so funny).

    People don't seem to want teach computer programming to children anymore (or
    45 year old beginners)..

    -- Richard
     
    Richard Dale, Feb 13, 2005
    #11
  12. On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 08:19:57AM +0900, William James wrote:
    >
    > Michael Walter wrote:
    > > The Ruby user would think "Who puts?" :)
    > >
    > > Michael
    > >
    > > Anders Engström <> wrote:
    > > > Ruby:
    > > >
    > > > (hello.rb)
    > > > puts "Hello World"

    >
    > "Hello, world!".display
    >


    Ok, that's probably more intuitive :) But not if you want to achieve the
    same effect as 'puts'. Then you'd have to change it to:

    "Hello World!\n".display

    That '\n' is pretty confusing for a newbie.

    //Anders

    --
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    Anders Engström
    http://www.gnejs.net PGP-Key: ED010E7F
    [Your mind is like an umbrella. It doesn't work unless you open it.]
     
    Anders Engström, Feb 14, 2005
    #12
  13. On Feb 14, 2005, at 12:19 AM, Navindra Umanee wrote:
    > Alexander Kellett <> wrote:
    >> i'm really puzzled by this.
    >> why python? or even worse. vb??!!

    >
    > How is a total beginner going to learn Ruby? By reading Pickaxe? I'm
    > not talking about a CS student here. My dad lives half-way around the
    > world from me.


    google is your friend :)

    http://www.google.nl/search?
    hl=en&lr=&q=learning+to+program+ruby&btnG=Search

    Alex
     
    Alexander Kellett, Feb 14, 2005
    #13
  14. Navindra Umanee, 13/2/2005 20:19:
    > Alexander Kellett <> wrote:
    >> i'm really puzzled by this.
    >> why python? or even worse. vb??!!

    >
    > How is a total beginner going to learn Ruby? By reading Pickaxe? I'm
    > not talking about a CS student here. My dad lives half-way around the
    > world from me.
    >
    > Besides, Python is a more restricted and syntactically uniform
    > language. Ruby is more flexible and expressive, but IMHO to really
    > understand the code you have to know more CS concepts and have a
    > deeper understanding of the syntax than some people like to admit.
    >
    > Even though in Ruby you can abuse the syntax or treat it glibly --
    > which makes it look like a nice thing for experienced programmers -- I
    > think it is better to understand what you are doing first. Python
    > forces you to understand these issues.
    >
    > I prefer Ruby but I think Python will be easier for a beginner to
    > grasp at the beginning, and it has less hurdles as well
    > documentation/book-wise -- I even saw one of the beginner books
    > describe how to implement a neat graphical game in a few steps.
    >
    > And yeah, VB has wizards and stuff on top of plenty of documentation.
    > Like I said, quicker gratification can be a good thing. Someone used
    > to fancy windows and GUI stuff probably isn't going to be happy stuck
    > at the command-line level. Joao makes a good point, of course.




    Someone posted this code here:
    def fib:
    a, b = 1, 1
    while true:
    yield a
    a, b = b, a+b

    It fails. Ask why! Because are missing '()' after 'fib'.
    Ruby is more prolixe. It's bad to refactoring tools, but is easier for
    the ones who can't remember the names of everything.
    Isn't a good thing you got errors because is missing a space, or because
    you couldn't choose a number so great
    (try
    j = 0
    for i in range(1000000000):
    j = j + 1

    ).
     
    Caio Tiago Oliveira, Feb 14, 2005
    #14
  15. Anders Engström, 13/2/2005 21:03:
    > On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 08:19:57AM +0900, William James wrote:
    >>
    >> Michael Walter wrote:
    >> > The Ruby user would think "Who puts?" :)
    >> >
    >> > Michael
    >> >
    >> > Anders Engström <> wrote:
    >> > > Ruby:
    >> > >
    >> > > (hello.rb)
    >> > > puts "Hello World"

    >>
    >> "Hello, world!".display
    >>

    >
    > Ok, that's probably more intuitive :) But not if you want to achieve the
    > same effect as 'puts'. Then you'd have to change it to:
    >
    > "Hello World!\n".display
    >
    > That '\n' is pretty confusing for a newbie.


    "Hello world!
    I'm here.
    ".display


    Without "\n"!
     
    Caio Tiago Oliveira, Feb 14, 2005
    #15
  16. Richard Dale

    James Britt Guest

    Anders Engström wrote:
    >
    >
    > That '\n' is pretty confusing for a newbie.


    How do you know that?

    I'd be interested in any good sources that detail the sort of things
    different types of newbies find troublesome or confusing.

    Offhand, I don't quite see that "\n" would be such a problem given a
    reasonably succinct explanation. My own experience with teaching
    programming newbies suggests that most of them are comfortable with
    fairly straight-forward edicts (e.g., "That's just how you tell the
    computer to start writing to a new line").

    It's the more abstract stuff (e.g., blocks, high-order functions, even
    the notion of a variable) that spooks them.

    James
     
    James Britt, Feb 14, 2005
    #16
  17. Caio Tiago Oliveira wrote:
    > Anders Engström, 13/2/2005 21:03:
    > > Ok, that's probably more intuitive :) But not if you want to

    achieve the
    > > same effect as 'puts'. Then you'd have to change it to:
    > >
    > > "Hello World!\n".display
    > >
    > > That '\n' is pretty confusing for a newbie.

    >
    > "Hello world!
    > I'm here.
    > ".display
    >
    >
    > Without "\n"!


    Nice. I didn't know that. Ruby certainly has a lot of bells and
    whistles.
     
    William James, Feb 14, 2005
    #17
  18. --Apple-Mail-1--951252625
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset=ISO-8859-1;
    format=flowed

    I agree. I've just started teaching someone C++ and he had no problem=20
    with \n. This is the first time he's ever looked at a language but,=20
    even so, it's not like he's a dumb person. Often times it seems we=20
    (programmers) underestimate the ability of non-programmers to learn=20
    programming. We tell ourselves that the only reason it looks simple to=20=

    us is because we're so used to it when, really, a lot of it is pretty=20
    simple. The parts that we find a bit difficult - that's what we should=20=

    focus on. (That last statement may be a little to limiting, it's just=20=

    a thought).

    -Shalev

    On Feb 13, 2005, at 9:55 PM, James Britt wrote:

    > Anders Engstr=F6m wrote:
    >> That '\n' is pretty confusing for a newbie.

    >
    > How do you know that?
    >
    > I'd be interested in any good sources that detail the sort of things=20=


    > different types of newbies find troublesome or confusing.
    >
    > Offhand, I don't quite see that "\n" would be such a problem given a=20=


    > reasonably succinct explanation. My own experience with teaching=20
    > programming newbies suggests that most of them are comfortable with=20
    > fairly straight-forward edicts (e.g., "That's just how you tell the=20
    > computer to start writing to a new line").
    >
    > It's the more abstract stuff (e.g., blocks, high-order functions, even=20=


    > the notion of a variable) that spooks them.
    >
    > James
    >


    --Apple-Mail-1--951252625--
     
    Shalev NessAiver, Feb 14, 2005
    #18
  19. James Britt wrote:

    > Anders Engström wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>
    >> That '\n' is pretty confusing for a newbie.

    >
    >
    > How do you know that?
    >
    > I'd be interested in any good sources that detail the sort of things
    > different types of newbies find troublesome or confusing.
    >
    > Offhand, I don't quite see that "\n" would be such a problem given a
    > reasonably succinct explanation. My own experience with teaching
    > programming newbies suggests that most of them are comfortable with
    > fairly straight-forward edicts (e.g., "That's just how you tell the
    > computer to start writing to a new line").
    >
    > It's the more abstract stuff (e.g., blocks, high-order functions, even
    > the notion of a variable) that spooks them.
    >
    > James
    >

    I have to agree with James. I taught several young children the basics
    of ruby over the summer and they had no problem with the concept of a
    newline. They know what the return key does on a keyboard, just tell
    them that it is like that.
    Ruby is a great first language. If someone has no programming
    experience then it would be ideal if they had a mentor they could talk
    to for the basics and OO stuff but I see no reason why someone couldn't
    learn ruby and programming from a combination of
    http://pine.fm/LearnToProgram/ , Programming Ruby and,
    http://poignantguide.net/ruby/.

    -Matthew Margolis
     
    Matthew Margolis, Feb 14, 2005
    #19
  20. > > def fib:
    > > a, b = 1, 1
    > > while true:
    > > yield a
    > > a, b = b, a+b
    > >
    > > It fails. Ask why! Because are missing '()' after 'fib'.

    >
    > Um yeah the whole program is syntactically wrong. Fortunately Python
    > tells you there's an error on practically every single line.


    Whoops. Okay the whole program is not syntactically wrong... I cut
    and paste the code into the interpreter instead of trying it from a
    file, so it rejected everything since it couldn't get past the first
    line.

    I also got confused seeing "yield" there. Hmm, I didn't know Python
    supported that.

    Later,
    Navin.
     
    Navindra Umanee, Feb 14, 2005
    #20
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