Progress in data processing

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by jacob navia, May 31, 2007.

  1. jacob navia

    jacob navia Guest

    OK I am running vista.

    My old machine died with a disk controller failure and I had to buy
    a new one. The new one was cheaper than the old one (1100 Euros vs
    620 Euros) but had twice as much RAM (2GB), twice as much disk
    space (500GB) and twice as much processor (dual core AMD 64 bits)

    Within the Vista OS, I installed a Virtual PC with windows XP,
    to remember the old days.

    And then, I compiled the source code of lcc-win32 using the
    lcc-win32 compiler.

    Vista: 3.5 seconds
    Windows XP (running under Vista emulation) 4.4 seconds...

    Can you imagine?

    I wonder if I put a windows 98 emulation it will run actually
    faster than the Vista version even if it is running in a
    virtual PC!!!

    Everything is slower or at best the same speed. I start
    Microsoft C and it takes forever, just as it did under
    XP, but much slower than it did under MSDOS.

    Then, surfing the web I found (slashdot pointer)
    http://hubpages.com/hub/_86_Mac_Plus_Vs_07_AMD_DualCore_You_Wont_Believe_Who_Wins

    Those guys measured the time it takes to do common tasks under
    a Mac of 1986 and a Vista/AMD dual core. The tasks are like
    doing an Excel spreadsheet, using Word, booting the system, etc.

    < QUOTE >
    Check out the results! For the functions that people use most often, the
    1986 vintage Mac Plus beats the 2007 AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+: 9 tests to
    8! Out of the 17 tests, the antique Mac won 53% of the time! Including a
    jaw-dropping 52 second whipping of the AMD from the time the Power
    button is pushed to the time the Desktop is up and usable.
    < END QUOTE >

    Yes, we wait longer for results today as we waited in 1986. The huge
    benefits that could be here with such a hardware speed are completely
    destroyed by the bloated software written in bloated languages that we
    run today.

    Why do I still use C?

    Precisely because of that. Because the language is still against the
    trend.

    Simple software, simple languages are now a thing of the past.
    Instead of progress we have regression. We have to run always
    faster to keep at the same speed.

    I am not implying that C is perfect or that I do not see the
    huge gaps in the language. What I am pointing at, is that the
    need for a simple and fast language is not in the present trends
    of software development.

    Actually this could be very good news for C. Obviously some
    applications exist that could be better in terms of speed. :)

    But the problem with C is that is seen as obsolete. Most people
    at the company where I was in my last consulting jobs used C++
    and would laugh at anyone that would dare question their
    templated bloat.

    Who cares about speed they said. Who cares about disk space or
    memory consumption.

    Ram is cheap, disk is cheap. BLOAT IT!!!!!!

    A disk costs the same if it is spinning with 50GB or with
    350GB inside. FILL IT!

    What now?

    There is a much simpler solution to templates. It is called
    aspect oriented programming.

    That is the subject of the next installment. The objective of this
    one is to point out that keeping things simple can be an
    objective *per se*. And to keep them simple and fats, a
    language without excessive bloat is needed.

    C (with some improvements) fits this description.

    jacob
    jacob navia, May 31, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. jacob navia

    Karl Heinze Guest

    On Thu, 31 May 2007 21:28:29 +0200, jacob navia
    <> wrote some quite reasonable stuff.

    Hi Jacob,

    I completely agree with (almost) all of what you've said.

    K. H.

    --

    E-mail: info<at>simple-line<dot>de
    Karl Heinze, May 31, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. jacob navia

    Ian Collins Guest

    jacob navia wrote:
    >
    > Yes, we wait longer for results today as we waited in 1986. The huge
    > benefits that could be here with such a hardware speed are completely
    > destroyed by the bloated software written in bloated languages that we
    > run today.
    >

    Not those of us who choose operating systems that get faster and lighter
    with each new release...

    >
    > But the problem with C is that is seen as obsolete. Most people
    > at the company where I was in my last consulting jobs used C++
    > and would laugh at anyone that would dare question their
    > templated bloat.
    >
    > Who cares about speed they said. Who cares about disk space or
    > memory consumption.
    >
    > Ram is cheap, disk is cheap. BLOAT IT!!!!!!
    >

    Sounds like a bunch of piss poor C++ programmers. Piss poor programmers
    work in all languages.

    --
    Ian Collins.
    Ian Collins, May 31, 2007
    #3
  4. I have to smile.
    I started working in D.P (thats Data Processing to you
    whippersnappers) in 1985.
    The computer was an old NCR century 100, its was 18 years old & I was
    17.
    This machine was one of the first to use MOS memory, 256K in all,
    though it still had about 4K of boot core memory.
    Every job was started with punched cards, we had a 'console' which was
    a typewriter keyboard & thermal printer.
    Disks were removable disk packs, they had been 'unstrapped' to
    increase the storage to 200Mb, there were three, the drives were the
    size of washing machines.
    Backup was to 1/2inch mag tape at a maximun density of 3200BPI (Bits
    per inch) though we ran them at 800BPI for safety.
    Out biggest client was a chain of Menswear stores we loaded each days
    transactions from there POS registers from cassette tape, about 35 of
    them.
    In that small system we ran Debtors, Creditors, General Ledger and
    Sales Analysis, some clients had stock control.
    Though the memory was 256K it was 'partitioned' into 4 so you could
    run 4 jobs at once.
    Most of the jobs would run in 48K, the OS used up 96K.
    It didnt have virtual memory, you could page in code by program
    control but it would be too slow to do that per transaction so a
    debtors end of month roll really did run in 48K.
    The systems were programmed in Cobol, the programs were patched with
    patch cards to change clients names & addresses by poked the strings
    into memory locations once the program was loaded. There were a only a
    few utlities to copy, backup or sort files.
    We had a 32K partition where we could run the editor, it drove a dumb
    terminal that ran an edlin style line editor.

    Makes me wonder what the computers will be like in another 40 years.

    Jeremy Thomson
    Jeremy Thomson, Jun 1, 2007
    #4
  5. jacob navia

    Cesar Rabak Guest

    jacob navia escreveu:
    > OK I am running vista.
    >

    [snipped]

    >
    > Then, surfing the web I found (slashdot pointer)
    > http://hubpages.com/hub/_86_Mac_Plus_Vs_07_AMD_DualCore_You_Wont_Believe_Who_Wins
    >
    >
    > Those guys measured the time it takes to do common tasks under
    > a Mac of 1986 and a Vista/AMD dual core. The tasks are like
    > doing an Excel spreadsheet, using Word, booting the system, etc.


    The comparison is not exactly fair as the versions, and because of it
    the _functionality_ of the 'same' programs are too different.

    If you could get hands on a version of Excel and Word (probably would be
    2.0) from the same period for an Intel machine, you'll probably would
    arrive at similar results.

    You'll need to arrive at a means of running Windows 3.1 on your new box :)

    Regards,

    --
    Cesar Rabak
    Cesar Rabak, Jun 1, 2007
    #5
  6. jacob navia

    Old Wolf Guest

    On Jun 1, 10:28 am, Ian Collins <> wrote:
    > Not those of us who choose operating systems that get faster and
    > lighter with each new release...


    Does such a thing exist? Linux used to comfortably
    fit on a CD; now it takes seven or more.
    Old Wolf, Jun 1, 2007
    #6
  7. jacob navia

    Ian Collins Guest

    Old Wolf wrote:
    > On Jun 1, 10:28 am, Ian Collins <> wrote:
    >> Not those of us who choose operating systems that get faster and
    >> lighter with each new release...

    >
    > Does such a thing exist? Linux used to comfortably
    > fit on a CD; now it takes seven or more.
    >

    That'll be all the bundled extras, if Linux is like Solaris, the core OS
    gets faster each release and still runs well on old hardware.

    --
    Ian Collins.
    Ian Collins, Jun 1, 2007
    #7
  8. jacob navia

    Clark Cox Guest

    On 2007-05-31 19:37:36 -0700, Old Wolf <> said:

    > On Jun 1, 10:28 am, Ian Collins <> wrote:
    >> Not those of us who choose operating systems that get faster and
    >> lighter with each new release...

    >
    > Does such a thing exist? Linux used to comfortably
    > fit on a CD; now it takes seven or more.


    It still does fit on a CD. I've got a couple of distros in my CD-wallet.

    --
    Clark S. Cox III
    Clark Cox, Jun 1, 2007
    #8
  9. jacob navia

    Guest

    On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 00:19:43 -0200, Cesar Rabak <>
    wrote:

    >jacob navia escreveu:
    >> OK I am running vista.
    >>

    >[snipped]
    >
    >>
    >> Then, surfing the web I found (slashdot pointer)
    >> http://hubpages.com/hub/_86_Mac_Plus_Vs_07_AMD_DualCore_You_Wont_Believe_Who_Wins
    >>
    >>
    >> Those guys measured the time it takes to do common tasks under
    >> a Mac of 1986 and a Vista/AMD dual core. The tasks are like
    >> doing an Excel spreadsheet, using Word, booting the system, etc.

    >
    >The comparison is not exactly fair as the versions, and because of it
    >the _functionality_ of the 'same' programs are too different.
    >
    >If you could get hands on a version of Excel and Word (probably would be
    >2.0) from the same period for an Intel machine, you'll probably would
    >arrive at similar results.
    >
    >You'll need to arrive at a means of running Windows 3.1 on your new box :)


    Word 2.0 seems to run just fine on Win98. (I just tried it).
    I don't know about any later OS.
    --
    ArarghMail705 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
    BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html

    To reply by email, remove the extra stuff from the reply address.
    , Jun 1, 2007
    #9
  10. Old Wolf said:

    > On Jun 1, 10:28 am, Ian Collins <> wrote:
    >> Not those of us who choose operating systems that get faster and
    >> lighter with each new release...

    >
    > Does such a thing exist? Linux used to comfortably
    > fit on a CD; now it takes seven or more.


    DSL fits in 50MB, by design. A month or so ago, my son installed it onto
    a ten-year-old laptop, and he's delighted with the performance gain.
    Mind you, it /was/ running Win98, so I suppose that's not surprising.

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
    http://www.cpax.org.uk
    email: rjh at the above domain, - www.
    Richard Heathfield, Jun 1, 2007
    #10
  11. JN> Yes, we wait longer for results today as we waited in 1986. The huge
    JN> benefits that could be here with such a hardware speed are completely
    JN> destroyed by the bloated software written in bloated languages that we
    JN> run today.

    True. But don't forget that you can also run __old__ software on
    modern hardware. For example, Borland's Turbo C 2.0 compiles and
    links already so blazingly fast on a 133MHz Pentium-1 that you think
    you are sitting in front of an interpreter.

    Thanks for keeping lcc-win32 non-bloated and zippy!

    Martin
    Martin Neitzel, Jun 1, 2007
    #11
  12. jacob navia

    Al Balmer Guest

    On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 09:51:16 +0000, Richard Heathfield
    <> wrote:

    >Old Wolf said:
    >
    >> On Jun 1, 10:28 am, Ian Collins <> wrote:
    >>> Not those of us who choose operating systems that get faster and
    >>> lighter with each new release...

    >>
    >> Does such a thing exist? Linux used to comfortably
    >> fit on a CD; now it takes seven or more.

    >
    >DSL fits in 50MB, by design. A month or so ago, my son installed it onto
    >a ten-year-old laptop, and he's delighted with the performance gain.
    >Mind you, it /was/ running Win98, so I suppose that's not surprising.


    DSL? All I can think of is Digital Subscriber Line, but you must mean
    something else.

    --
    Al Balmer
    Sun City, AZ
    Al Balmer, Jun 1, 2007
    #12
  13. Al Balmer said:
    > On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 09:51:16 +0000, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    >>Old Wolf said:
    >>> Ian Collins wrote:
    >>>> Not those of us who choose operating systems that get faster and
    >>>> lighter with each new release...
    >>>
    >>> Does such a thing exist? Linux used to comfortably
    >>> fit on a CD; now it takes seven or more.

    >>
    >>DSL fits in 50MB, by design. A month or so ago, my son installed it
    >>onto a ten-year-old laptop, and he's delighted with the performance
    >>gain. Mind you, it /was/ running Win98, so I suppose that's not
    >>surprising.

    >
    > DSL? All I can think of is Digital Subscriber Line, but you must mean
    > something else.



    http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/


    --
    Richard Heathfield
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
    http://www.cpax.org.uk
    email: rjh at the above domain, - www.
    Richard Heathfield, Jun 1, 2007
    #13
  14. jacob navia

    Al Balmer Guest

    On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:26:57 +0000, Richard Heathfield
    <> wrote:

    >Al Balmer said:
    >> On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 09:51:16 +0000, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    >>>Old Wolf said:
    >>>> Ian Collins wrote:
    >>>>> Not those of us who choose operating systems that get faster and
    >>>>> lighter with each new release...
    >>>>
    >>>> Does such a thing exist? Linux used to comfortably
    >>>> fit on a CD; now it takes seven or more.
    >>>
    >>>DSL fits in 50MB, by design. A month or so ago, my son installed it
    >>>onto a ten-year-old laptop, and he's delighted with the performance
    >>>gain. Mind you, it /was/ running Win98, so I suppose that's not
    >>>surprising.

    >>
    >> DSL? All I can think of is Digital Subscriber Line, but you must mean
    >> something else.

    >
    >
    >http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/


    Ah, now I remember. Looked at it quite a while ago. I see they've put
    in a lot of work since. I'm downloading a copy now.

    --
    Al Balmer
    Sun City, AZ
    Al Balmer, Jun 1, 2007
    #14
  15. jacob navia wrote:
    >
    > Vista: 3.5 seconds
    > Windows XP (running under Vista emulation) 4.4 seconds...
    >
    > Can you imagine?

    Actually I can, anything running in a virtual machine of any kind should
    be somewhat slower than running it in the main OS. Perhaps a little bit
    more difference than I would have expected but not surprising. Very
    processor intensive tasks take almost the same amount of time, but as
    soon as file system or screen I/O is involved there should be *some*
    difference.

    Could you try installing vista in a virtual machine and compare?

    Or did you swap the numbers? Or did I missunderstand you?

    >
    > I wonder if I put a windows 98 emulation it will run actually
    > faster than the Vista version even if it is running in a
    > virtual PC!!!


    I doubt it, but it is possible

    [snip]

    For the rest I absolutely agree with you...
    Johan Bengtsson, Jun 1, 2007
    #15
  16. jacob navia

    jacob navia Guest

    CBFalconer wrote:
    > Martin Neitzel wrote:
    >> Jacob Navia wrote:
    >>
    >>> Yes, we wait longer for results today as we waited in 1986. The
    >>> huge benefits that could be here with such a hardware speed are
    >>> completely destroyed by the bloated software written in bloated
    >>> languages that we run today.

    >> True. But don't forget that you can also run __old__ software on
    >> modern hardware. For example, Borland's Turbo C 2.0 compiles and
    >> links already so blazingly fast on a 133MHz Pentium-1 that you
    >> think you are sitting in front of an interpreter.

    >
    > But you can't (sometimes) run new software on old hardware.
    > lcc-win32 is an example, which creates some form of trap the moment
    > you try the debugger. The docs specify it runs under W98, but it
    > doesn't.
    >


    IR WILL NOT RUN IN A 486 CHUCK!!!!!

    I have told you this a thousand times.

    It needs pentium1 or higher
    jacob navia, Jun 1, 2007
    #16
  17. jacob navia

    Barry Guest

    "CBFalconer" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Jeremy Thomson wrote:
    >>
    >> I have to smile. I started working in D.P (thats Data Processing
    >> to you whippersnappers) in 1985.
    >>
    >> The computer was an old NCR century 100, its was 18 years old & I
    >> was 17. This machine was one of the first to use MOS memory,
    >> 256K in all, though it still had about 4K of boot core memory.
    >>
    >> Every job was started with punched cards, we had a 'console' which
    >> was a typewriter keyboard & thermal printer. Disks were removable
    >> disk packs, they had been 'unstrapped' to increase the storage to
    >> 200Mb, there were three, the drives were the size of washing
    >> machines.

    >
    > Sounds much like an early version of the HP3000 circa 1973 (I was
    > about 42), but with a much poorer OS. That could function with
    > 128kB (64 kW) of memory. We mounted a C on it about 10 years
    > later, when the memory was up to some number of megs, and the
    > machine was much smaller.
    >


    Well that was a few years before my time, but you probably
    remember the INP (it hung off the GIC). Early versions had
    a mulitasking OS in 16K. Of course it didn't have a file system.
    Barry, Jun 2, 2007
    #17
  18. CBFalconer wrote:
    > jacob navia wrote:
    >> CBFalconer wrote:
    >>

    > ... snip ...
    >>>
    >>> But you can't (sometimes) run new software on old hardware.
    >>> lcc-win32 is an example, which creates some form of trap the
    >>> moment you try the debugger. The docs specify it runs under
    >>> W98, but it doesn't.

    >>
    >> IR WILL NOT RUN IN A 486 CHUCK!!!!!
    >>
    >> I have told you this a thousand times.
    >>
    >> It needs pentium1 or higher

    >
    > I know that. However W98 runs on a 486, and you claim it runs
    > under W98. Which means your documentation is non-trustworthy.
    > I've said this before.


    Quoting from <http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/>:
    "Minimum requirements:
    Windows 95 or later for the command line tools, Windows 2000 or later for
    the IDE. All later operating systems (XP/2003/NT) are fully supported."

    Does lcc-win32 use a command line debugger? It's been a long while since I
    gave it a try, but as I recall it had a graphical debugger.
    Harald van =?UTF-8?B?RMSzaw==?=, Jun 2, 2007
    #18
  19. jacob navia

    jacob navia Guest

    Harald van Dijk wrote:
    > CBFalconer wrote:
    >> jacob navia wrote:
    >>> CBFalconer wrote:
    >>>

    >> ... snip ...
    >>>> But you can't (sometimes) run new software on old hardware.
    >>>> lcc-win32 is an example, which creates some form of trap the
    >>>> moment you try the debugger. The docs specify it runs under
    >>>> W98, but it doesn't.
    >>> IR WILL NOT RUN IN A 486 CHUCK!!!!!
    >>>
    >>> I have told you this a thousand times.
    >>>
    >>> It needs pentium1 or higher

    >> I know that. However W98 runs on a 486, and you claim it runs
    >> under W98. Which means your documentation is non-trustworthy.
    >> I've said this before.

    >
    > Quoting from <http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/>:
    > "Minimum requirements:
    > Windows 95 or later for the command line tools, Windows 2000 or later for
    > the IDE. All later operating systems (XP/2003/NT) are fully supported."
    >
    > Does lcc-win32 use a command line debugger? It's been a long while since I
    > gave it a try, but as I recall it had a graphical debugger.


    No command line debugger. I will change that to win98+pentium1.

    jacob
    jacob navia, Jun 2, 2007
    #19
  20. jacob navia

    Guest

    On May 31, 9:28 pm, jacob navia <> wrote:
    > OK I am running vista.
    >
    > My old machine died with a disk controller failure and I had to buy
    > a new one. The new one was cheaper than the old one (1100 Euros vs
    > 620 Euros) but had twice as much RAM (2GB), twice as much disk
    > space (500GB) and twice as much processor (dual core AMD 64 bits)
    >
    > Within the Vista OS, I installed a Virtual PC with windows XP,
    > to remember the old days.
    >
    > And then, I compiled the source code of lcc-win32 using the
    > lcc-win32 compiler.
    >
    > Vista: 3.5 seconds
    > Windows XP (running under Vista emulation) 4.4 seconds...
    >
    > Can you imagine?
    >
    > I wonder if I put a windows 98 emulation it will run actually
    > faster than the Vista version even if it is running in a
    > virtual PC!!!
    >
    > Everything is slower or at best the same speed. I start
    > Microsoft C and it takes forever, just as it did under
    > XP, but much slower than it did under MSDOS.
    >
    > Then, surfing the web I found (slashdot pointer)http://hubpages.com/hub/_86_Mac_Plus_Vs_07_AMD_DualCore_You_Wont_Beli...
    >
    > Those guys measured the time it takes to do common tasks under
    > a Mac of 1986 and a Vista/AMD dual core. The tasks are like
    > doing an Excel spreadsheet, using Word, booting the system, etc.
    >
    > < QUOTE >
    > Check out the results! For the functions that people use most often, the
    > 1986 vintage Mac Plus beats the 2007 AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+: 9 tests to
    > 8! Out of the 17 tests, the antique Mac won 53% of the time! Including a
    > jaw-dropping 52 second whipping of the AMD from the time the Power
    > button is pushed to the time the Desktop is up and usable.
    > < END QUOTE >
    >
    > Yes, we wait longer for results today as we waited in 1986. The huge
    > benefits that could be here with such a hardware speed are completely
    > destroyed by the bloated software written in bloated languages that we
    > run today.
    >
    > Why do I still use C?
    >
    > Precisely because of that. Because the language is still against the
    > trend.
    >
    > Simple software, simple languages are now a thing of the past.
    > Instead of progress we have regression. We have to run always
    > faster to keep at the same speed.
    >
    > I am not implying that C is perfect or that I do not see the
    > huge gaps in the language. What I am pointing at, is that the
    > need for a simple and fast language is not in the present trends
    > of software development.
    >
    > Actually this could be very good news for C. Obviously some
    > applications exist that could be better in terms of speed. :)
    >
    > But the problem with C is that is seen as obsolete. Most people
    > at the company where I was in my last consulting jobs used C++
    > and would laugh at anyone that would dare question their
    > templated bloat.
    >
    > Who cares about speed they said. Who cares about disk space or
    > memory consumption.
    >
    > Ram is cheap, disk is cheap. BLOAT IT!!!!!!
    >
    > A disk costs the same if it is spinning with 50GB or with
    > 350GB inside. FILL IT!
    >
    > What now?
    >
    > There is a much simpler solution to templates. It is called
    > aspect oriented programming.
    >
    > That is the subject of the next installment. The objective of this
    > one is to point out that keeping things simple can be an
    > objective *per se*. And to keep them simple and fats, a
    > language without excessive bloat is needed.
    >
    > C (with some improvements) fits this description.
    >
    > jacob


    Hehe. It's funny how people make conclusions like "Use Linux is FASTER
    than Windows", "C is faster than C++" etc...

    To me, it's all a matter of programming - and I don't think that C's
    great value resides in it's speed. (is it even defined by the
    standard? ;-) )
    , Jun 2, 2007
    #20
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Charlie Zhang
    Replies:
    3
    Views:
    1,237
    Paul Lutus
    Aug 16, 2004
  2. Hubert Hung-Hsien Chang
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    405
    Michael Foord
    Sep 17, 2004
  3. Replies:
    2
    Views:
    712
  4. BLUE

    Passing XML data and providing progress to client.

    BLUE, May 22, 2007, in forum: ASP .Net Web Services
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    115
  5. Roy
    Replies:
    3
    Views:
    159
    Aaron [SQL Server MVP]
    Jan 23, 2005
Loading...

Share This Page