proliferation of computer languages

Discussion in 'Java' started by xahlee@gmail.com, Jul 18, 2008.

  1. Guest

    Today, i took sometime to list some major or talked-about langs that
    arose in recent years.

    Here's the result:
    http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/new_langs.html

    Plain text version follows.

    -------------------------------------
    There is a proliferation of computer languages today like never
    before. In this page, i list some of them.

    In the following, i try to list some of the langs that are created
    after 2000, or become very active after 2000.

    * Erlang↗. Functional, concurrent.
    * Haskell↗ Oldish, functional.
    * Mercury↗. Logic, functional.
    * Q↗. Functional lang, based on term rewriting. To be replaced by
    “Pure†http://pure-lang.sourceforge.net/.

    ML Family:

    * Oz↗. Concurrent. Multiparadigm.
    * Alice↗. Concurrent, ML derivative. Saarland University, Germany.
    * OCaml↗
    * F#↗. Microsoft's functional lang.

    Lisp family:

    * Mathematica↗
    * NewLisp↗
    * Arc↗. Paul Graham's selling his name.
    * Qi↗. Common Lisp added with modern functional lang features.
    * Scheme↗, notably PLT Scheme↗.
    * Dylan programming language↗. Rather dead.

    Proof systems:

    * Coq↗. For formal proofs.
    * For much more, see Automated theorem proving↗.

    Perl Family or derivative:

    * PHP↗. Decendent of Perl for server side web apps.
    * Ruby↗. Perl with rectified syntax and semantics.
    * Perl6↗
    * Sleep↗. A scripting lang, perl syntax. On Java platform.

    Java related:

    * C#↗. Microsoft's answer to Java.
    * Scala↗. A FP+OOP lang on Java platform as a Java alternative.
    * Groovy↗. Scritping lang on on Java platform.

    2D graphics related.

    * Scratch↗
    * Adobe Flash↗'s ActionScript↗. 2D graphics.
    * Processing↗. 2D graphics on Java platform.

    Misc:

    * Linden_Scripting_Language↗. Used in virtual world Second Life..

    ------------------------------

    Following are some random comments on comp langs.

    in the above, i tried to not list implementations. (e.g. huge number
    of Scheme implemented in JVM with fluffs here and there; also e.g.
    JPython, JRuby, and quite a lot more.) Also, i tried to avoid minor
    derivatives or variations. Also, i tried to avoid langs that's one-
    man's fancy with little followings.

    For those of you developens in Java, Perl, Python for example, it
    would be fruitful to spend a hour or 2 to look at the Wikipedia
    articles about these, or their home pages. Wikipedia has several pages
    that is a listing of comp langs, of which you can read about perhaps
    over 2 hundreds of langs if you want.

    The user base of the langs differ by some magnitude. Some, such as for
    example PHP, C#, are within the top 10 most popular lang with active
    users (which is perhaps in order of hundreds of millions). Some
    others, are niche but still with huge users (order of tens or hundreds
    of thousands), such as LSL, Erlang, Mathematica. Others are niche but
    robust and industrial (counting academic use), such as Coq (a proof
    system), Processing, PLT Scheme, AutoLisp. Few are mostly academic
    followed with handful of experimenters, Qi, Arc, Mercury, Q,
    Concurrent Clean are probably examples.

    ------------------

    I was prompted to have a scan at these new lang because recently i
    wrote a article titled “The Fundamental Problems of Lispâ€
    ( http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/lisp_problems.html (ranty)),
    which mentioned my impression of a proliferation of languages (and all
    sorts of computing tools and applications). Quote:

    10 years ago, in the dot com days (~1998), where Java, Javascript,
    Perl are screaming the rounds. It was my opinion, that lisp will
    inevitably become popular in the future, simply due to its inherent
    superior design, simplicity, flexibility, power, whatever its existing
    problems may be. Now i don't think that'll ever happen as is. Because,
    due to the tremendous technological advances, in particular in
    communication (i.e. the internet and its consequences, e.g. Wikipedia,
    youtube, youporn, social networks sites, blogs, Instant chat, etc)
    computer languages are proliferating like never before. (e.g. erlang,
    OCaml, Haskell, PHP, Ruby, c#, f#, perl6, arc, NewLisp, Scala, Groovy,
    Goo, Nice, E, Q, Qz, Mercury, Scratch, Flash, Processing, ..., helped
    by the abundance of tools, libraries, parsers, existance of
    infrastructures) New langs, basically will have all the advantages of
    lisps or lisp's fundamental concepts or principles. I see that,
    perhaps in the next decade, as communication technologies further hurl
    us forward, the proliferation of langs will reduce to a trend of
    consolidation (e.g. fueled by virtual machines such as
    Microsoft's .NET. (and, btw, the breaking of programer's social taboo
    of cross communication of computing languages, led by Xah Lee)).

    ---------------------

    in general, creating a lang is relatively easy to do in comparison to
    programing tasks in the industry (such as, for example, writing robust
    signal processing lib, a new feature in web server, video web server
    framework, a game engine ...etc.). Computing tasks typically have a
    goal, where all sorts of complexities and nit-gritty detail arise in
    the solving process. Creating a lang often is simply based on a
    individual's creativity that doesn't have much fixed constraints, much
    as in painting or sculpting. Many langs that have become popular, in
    fact arose this way. Popularly known examples includes perl6, Ruby,
    Arc, Python. Creating a lang requires the skill of writing a compiler
    though, which isn't trivial, but today with mega proliferation of
    tools, even the need for compiler writing skill is reduced. (e.g. Arc.
    (10 years ago, writing a parser is mostly not required due to existing
    tools such as lex/yacc))

    Some lang are created to solve a immediate problem or need.
    Mathematica, Adobe Flash's ActionScript, Emacs Lisp, LSL would be good
    examples. Some are created due to a new discoveries in computing
    models. Lisp, Haskell, Qi, Prolog, SmallTalk, are of this type...

    Some are created by corporations from scratch for one reasons or
    another. e.g. Java, Javascript, AppleScript, Dylan, C#. The reason is
    mostly to make money by creating a lang that solves perceived problems
    or need, as innovation. The problem may or may not actually exist. (C#
    is a lang created probably mostly just for legal reasons)

    -------------------

    Looking at some tens of langs, one might think that there might be
    some unifying factor, some unifying theory or model, that limits their
    type, class, or model. With influence from Stephen Wolfram book “A New
    Kind of Scienceâ€, i'd think there's no such thing. That is to say,
    different languages are potentionally endless, and each can become
    quite useful or important or with large user bases. In other words, i
    think there's no theoretical basis that would govern what languages
    will be popular due to its technical/mathematical properties... (sorry
    just writing out my thoughts here...) Perhaps another way to phrase
    this imprecise thought is that, languages will keep proliferating, and
    even if we don't consider langs that are one-man's fancy, there will
    still probably be forever birth of languages, and they will all be
    useful or solve some niche problem, because there is no theoretical or
    techinacal reason that sometimes in the future there would be one lang
    that can be fittingly used to solve all computing problems.

    Also, the possibilities of lang's syntax are basically unlimited, even
    considering that they be practical and human readible. So, any joe,
    can potentionally create a new syntax. The syntaxes of existing langs,
    when compared to the number of all potentionally possible (human
    readible) syntaxes, are probably a very small fraction. That is to
    say, even with so many existing langs today with their wildly
    differing syntax, we probably haven't seen nothing yet.

    Also note here all langs mentioned here are all plain-text linear
    ones. Spread sheet and visual programing langs would be example of 2D
    syntax... but i haven't thought about how they can be classified as
    syntax. (nor do i fully understand the ontology of syntax)
    (see e.g.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntax
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language
    )

    Just some extempore thoughts.

    Xah
    ∑ http://xahlee.org/

    ☄
     
    , Jul 18, 2008
    #1
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  2. On Jul 19, 3:17 am, "" <> wrote:
    > Today, i took sometime to ..


    ..do some more trolling? It is not the proliferation
    of computer languages that is any problem, merely the
    proliferation of cross-posting trolls such as yourself.

    Piss off.

    F-U set to c.l.j.programmer only.

    --
    Andrew T.
     
    Andrew Thompson, Jul 19, 2008
    #2
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  3. I can't say that I see any particular point to the essay. But I did
    want to point out that Oz should not be considered part of the ML
    family. Aside from not being statically typed - a very central tenet
    to ML, Oz is much more part of the Logic family of languages (Mercury,
    Prolog, etc...).

    On Jul 18, 12:17 pm, "" <> wrote:
    > Today, i took sometime to list some major or talked-about langs that
    > arose in recent years.
    >
    > ML Family:
    >
    > * Oz¨J. Concurrent. Multiparadigm.
    > * Alice¨J. Concurrent, ML derivative. Saarland University, Germany.
    > * OCaml¨J
    > * F#¨J. Microsoft's functional lang.
     
    Chris Rathman, Jul 22, 2008
    #3
  4. Chris Rathman <> wrote:
    >I can't say that I see any particular point to the essay.


    You must be new here. There never is any particular point to Xah Lee's
    rantings except to cross-post borderline topics to borderline relevant
    NGs and then lay back and enjoy the ensuing slaughter.

    PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLL

    >On Jul 18, 12:17 pm, "" <> wrote:


    jue
     
    Jürgen Exner, Jul 22, 2008
    #4
  5. szr Guest

    Jürgen Exner wrote:
    > Chris Rathman <> wrote:
    >
    >> I can't say that I see any particular point to the essay.

    >
    > You must be new here. There never is any particular point to Xah
    > Lee's rantings except to cross-post borderline topics to borderline
    > relevant NGs and then lay back and enjoy the ensuing slaughter.


    Admittedly, I'm not all too familiar with his postings, but on a general
    note, isn't it possible that someone else might not see it the same as
    you do? I really didn't see anything really sinister about the posting
    or it's content. It may very well be someone attempting to create a
    conversation, someone who may not be generally well received a lot of
    the time I gather.

    Also, if have such a distaste for his postings, you are free to ignore
    them as well. That said, I am all for alerting someone of something
    which may be a complete waste of their time, but in this case it feels
    like you are projecting your own dislike for the OP. Unless the OP
    really is deserving of such branding (in which case I'd stand
    corrected), I don't think it is reason enough to tell others not to read
    of his work just because you aren't particularly fond of it.

    Perhaps citing an actual example illustrating a reason to avoid him like
    the plague would of helped :)

    --
    szr
     
    szr, Jul 22, 2008
    #5
  6. cartercc Guest

    On Jul 18, 1:17 pm, "" <> wrote:
    > Today, i took sometime to list some major or talked-about langs that
    > arose in recent years.


    You missed PowerShell and ActionScript.

    Languages are just tools. It may have escaped your notice, but it's a
    remarkable fact that no two languages are alike! It's not the language
    that we should focus on, but the task at hand. Personally, I feel that
    we can gain a lot more by studying the different kinds of problems we
    can solve by computing and relate the language to the job, rather than
    learning a language and then trying to find a fit with a particular
    class of problems.

    If you look at TIOBE and the like, you will note that the top four
    language categories (Java/JavaScript, C/C++, Basic, and Perl/Python/
    Ruby) account for around eighty percent of the language usage (not
    counting PHP), and all the other languages quickly fall off. No. 13 on
    the TIOBE rating was PL/SQL at 0.073 percent. If you read the
    employment ads (Dice, etc.) the percentage is even greater for the big
    languages. To me, this indicates that we have several mainstream
    languages that account for the vast majority of work and a vast number
    of task specific languages for special purposes.

    CC
     
    cartercc, Jul 22, 2008
    #6
  7. szr Guest

    Grant Edwards wrote:
    > On 2008-07-22, szr <> wrote:
    >> J?rgen Exner wrote:
    >>> Chris Rathman <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I can't say that I see any particular point to the essay.
    >>>
    >>> You must be new here. There never is any particular point to
    >>> Xah Lee's rantings except to cross-post borderline topics to
    >>> borderline relevant NGs and then lay back and enjoy the
    >>> ensuing slaughter.

    >>
    >> Admittedly, I'm not all too familiar with his postings, but on
    >> a general note, isn't it possible that someone else might not
    >> see it the same as you do? I really didn't see anything really
    >> sinister about the posting or it's content.

    >
    > That's the, uh, "beauty" of Xah Lee's posts. There's enough
    > "there" there to suck people into what they think is going to
    > be a conversation. But it's not really a conversation. He
    > doesn't really read (or doesn't comprehend) responses to his
    > posts and will just continue to ramble on in a somewhat
    > insulting, half-rational stream of utterly opaque metaphors
    > that he thinks makes him sound deeply philosphical. It has
    > been theorized that he's an AI project.


    So, some dark government experiment gone horribly wrong?

    >> It may very well be someone attempting to create a
    >> conversation, someone who may not be generally well received a
    >> lot of the time I gather.

    >
    > Quite a few people here in c.l.p put forth a a lot of effort
    > (for Usenet, anyway) trying to have a reasonable exchange with
    > xah lee, but it seems to be pointless. He's a perpetual critic
    > who looks down his nose at everything and thinks he could do
    > everything better than everybody else (not that he has actually
    > ever _done_ anything, AFAICT).


    That's good to know.

    >> Also, if have such a distaste for his postings, you are free
    >> to ignore them as well. That said, I am all for alerting
    >> someone of something which may be a complete waste of their
    >> time,

    >
    > It's not a waste of your time if you find him entertaining, but
    > I wouldn't expect any actual conversation where he reads and
    > understands your replies and responds to them in a rational
    > manner.


    Yeah I wasn't really aware it was that bad.

    >> but in this case it feels like you are projecting your
    >> own dislike for the OP. Unless the OP really is deserving of
    >> such branding (in which case I'd stand corrected), I don't
    >> think it is reason enough to tell others not to read of his
    >> work just because you aren't particularly fond of it.
    >>
    >> Perhaps citing an actual example illustrating a reason to
    >> avoid him like the plague would of helped :)

    >
    > google groups should be able to find you plenty of examples
    > both here and in perl groups.


    Thank you for filling in some voids.

    --
    szr
     
    szr, Jul 22, 2008
    #7
  8. Guest

    over the past 5 years there are some negative remarks on me or my
    posts. I have almost never responded to any of them. Here i want to
    clarify a few things.

    • I seldomly write off-topic posts. For example, any argument about
    netiquette, i consider off-topic, including defense such as what i'm
    doing now. But in recent years i gradually relaxed my stringent self-
    imposed rules in my posting habit.
    (See “Aloofness vs Approableâ€
    http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/aloof_vs_approachable.html )

    • many says i'm posting off topic posts. In recent years they start to
    say i'm posting tangentially relevant posts. That's not correct. In
    fact, there are huge number of blatantly off-topics posts by regulars
    that spawn off from threads, happens regularly. The topics vary
    anywhere from discussing politics, law, licenses, free speech, math
    education, yapping on happenings of celebrity programers, and
    including rampant flamewars and accusations among themselves.
    (see ★ “Old School Netiquetteâ€
    http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/os_netiquette.html
    )

    • Some people says that i don't participate in discussion, and this is
    part of the reason they think i'm a so-called “trollâ€. Actually i do,
    and read every reply to my post, as well have replied to technical
    questions other posted. Most reply to my posts are attacks or trivial
    (of few sentences) i don't consider worthy to reply.

    A few, maybe 10% replies to my controvial posts, i consider having
    some value. But if i don't have opinion on what they remarked, i don't
    reply. Also, if all i wanted to say is “thanksâ€, i tend to avoid
    posting such trivial posts too. (i used to reply by personal email in
    such cases, I still do sometimes now, but today that can be considered
    intrusive.)

    (see ★ “Philosophies of Netiquetteâ€
    http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/phil_netiquette.html ,
    )

    In newsgroups which i feel i'm more part of the community, i do reply
    more often. (e.g. in the dot com years (~1999) i'm much more active in
    comp.lang.perl.misc including asking technical questions; during
    2005-2006 while i was learning python, did somewhat frequent posts to
    comp.lang.python; in this year in comp.lang.lisp, i frequently replied
    and argued more freely. But in this year, also very active in
    gnu.emacs.help, most of my posts there just answered tech questions)

    • Most newsgroup tech geekers consider cross-posting wrong. I consider
    the taboo of this convention being a major contribution to the
    redundant creation of new languages, and foster the hostile faction
    nature of programing language communities we see.
    (see ★ “Cross-posting & Language Factionsâ€
    http://xahlee.org/Netiquette_dir/cross-post.html
    )

    • There's a lot rumors that says i post prodigiously. Actually, when
    i'm active, i post only about 1 or 2 posts per week, in the past 10
    years. (See the “Aloofness vs Approachble†article cited above. Note
    that, last time i checked, the stat given by poster's profile at
    groups.google.com is actually erroneous. I think it counts all replies
    or multiply cross posts)

    • Many say i repeatedly post old essays i wrote that are published on
    my website. The total number of times i've done that is perhaps 4 or
    absoletly less than than 10, since the 12 years of using newsgroup
    started in 1996. The first of such “repeat†must be sometimes after
    2004. The interval of a “repeat†happens is at least half a year, more
    likely 1 or 2 years. Also, the repeat does not happen more than once.
    (to be absolutely correct, possibly there is 1 essay that are posted
    at a max of 3 times) I “repeat†a essay i've written because i think
    the issue is important, the situation has not changed, and i consider
    it worth to be said again. When appropriate, i incorporate information
    from the discussion into by my essay, with proper credits. (this esp
    has happened in my Python tutorial, emacs lisp tutorial, java
    tutorial, various classical literature on my site)

    Actually, most accusations about me falls apart if one just take 10
    min to check the facts.

    • When i used my google email account to post, as opposed to my older
    google account , often people accuse me of “changing
    identity to avoid killfileâ€. This is just one of their ways these
    people drivel. I don't really give a **** i'm kill filed or not kill
    filed. People change emails all the time. In the past 10 years of
    using newsgroups, i've only used and .
    And before 2000, i had few other emails before i registered the domain
    xahlee.org. I rather stick with , but the re-login to
    different google accounts with several of their services is becoming a
    pain. See, for example, this post this month:

    http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Accounts-API/browse_thread/thread/a179b4fd348900aa?tvc=2

    Also, whenever i had a new webhosting provider, people dig it up and
    accuse me of changing IP to troll. (this happens more frequently in
    the past, say before 2003, i think that the knowledge of digging up IP
    is now considered lame even amoneg these stupid tech geekers)

    My site xahlee.org has changed web hosting about every 2 years for
    variety of reasons. For a few years it was hosted free on the math
    educational site that used to be mathforum.org of Swathmore edu.
    (For some detail of my website hosting and history, see:
    ★ “Web Hosting Compared: 2006-01â€
    http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t1/webhosting.html
    A little trivia: before i had xahlee.org in 2000, my site was hosted
    at
    best.com/~xah starting in 1996.
    Some very very old sites still link to that.
    )

    The only time that my change of web hoster has anything to do with my
    posting, is in 2006 someone harrassed me to have my web hosting kick
    me off due to my controversial postings in comp.lang.* groups. I have
    written a detailed account about it on my website. you can easily find
    the url by web search “xah, dreamhost, harrassmentâ€.

    (for the record, any ban, or harrasment on me, i keep a record as
    truthful as possile. Most of these bans, kicks, or fights happens in
    just aboun every online forum, inworld game groups, irc chat
    groups, ...etc where the participants are almost all males. Typically,
    they are not unlike highschool boys brawling things out. If the issue
    effected me or pissed me in some serious way, i publish it on my
    website. The keeping record is very tedious. For example, in
    newsgroups you might want to save all the messages in a thread this
    happened. In online forums, blogs, social networking sites, where
    posts can be deleted or modified easily, it's more tedious to keep a
    history of the site (e.g. screenshots), and to keep a manual written
    log of what happened when. Similarly, in irc, you have to save the
    chat, manage the chat logs, adding comment on what happened where with
    what chat log, finding out people's real identities if proper, etc.
    (as a example, i've been ban'd in freenode.com's #emacs irc chat since
    2006. See ★ “Emacs Irc Channel Ban on Xah Lee†http://xahlee.org/emacs/xah_ban_emacs_irc.html
    . I have a bunch of irc chat logs when i'm banned. I always save the
    chat log when someone ban me unjustly. But it's quite time consuming
    to organize them and write about them.))

    (as another example of ban, in about 2 months ago i was ban'd in
    Wikipedia. I was editing 3 article related to Tibet, of which i
    consider my edit very proper. But, in my opinion, it's too much againt
    Western's popular beliefs. I wrote detailed argument about my edit in
    my Wikipedia's personal talk page. The Wikipedia fuckheads not only
    ban'd me, but subsequently ban'd me in editing my pesonal Wikipedia
    page too, and blatantly deleted the detailed reason that i defended my
    edit. The incident is here, bottom:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:P0lyglut
    the writing where i defended my edit, is here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:P0lyglut&diff=prev&oldid=215672906

    Wikipedia these days is a huge organization (ranked top 10 of all
    sites), and part of the good thing is that they have some rules and
    regulations that prevents the fuckheads powers struggle too much, in
    that they have 1-month ban, with record of history, and in general has
    ways to further one's case to judgement. However, it's still subject
    to a lot tech geekers or other cartel of vested interest in keeping
    some article to the way they liked. I do consider Wikipedia one of the
    most important site and in fact part of my life, but these days i
    avoid “contributingâ€. (e.g. i have now over 4000 links to Wikipedia
    articles from my site. I estimate, that for each link i've made, there
    are maybe 10 more article i've read. See for example:
    ★ “Links To Wikipedia from XahLee.orgâ€
    http://xahlee.org/wikipedia_links.html ,
    ★ “Generate a Web Links Report with Emacs Lispâ€
    http://xahlee.org/emacs/elisp_link_report.html ,
    ★ “Encyclopedia, My Experiencesâ€
    http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/encyclopedia.html
    ★ “Lispers and Wikipediaâ€
    http://xahlee.org/emacs/lispers_n_wikipedia.html
    )
    )
    -----------------

    I've been actively using online forums since 1991 in CompuServe and
    AppleLink days. I've seen my share of flames, netiquette arguments,
    etc. (the medium include: newsgroup, mailing list, web forum, irc,
    communities inside massive multi-player online games) I've been banned
    now and then in places. (in one case, legally definable harrassment,
    which happened and perhapss well-known at the time in comp.lang.*
    groups few years ago) From what i see, the banning, heated accusations
    and quarrels, are mostly exhibition of male nature and political
    struggle, not unlike political struggles that happens in society at
    large, such as in academia, corporations, goverment orgs, between
    corporations, between nations.

    Some say “why can't you be normal�

    It is true i tend to discuss controversial topics and with non-
    conformal attitude. I have my reasons and you could say it's just a
    personality. However, “being not normal†is not a reason to accuse.
    There are philosophers, unorthodox, dissenters, free thinkers, flag
    bunners, protesters, traitor/founder, homosexuals ... many are
    persecuted, considered a crime, in the past, and some are now
    considered national or international heros.

    Btw, this post is not some kinda formal defense to some formal
    accusations. Newsgroups has always been a very contentious and
    argumentive medium, and perhaps far more wortheless with relatively
    little readership and impact on society than tech geeking regulars
    like to think. People in fact like newsgroups that way. I don't feel
    necessary to respond to morons. This post is just one of my post i
    feels like writing. You guys to whatever it is that you do.

    PS as i have detailed, i have my own moral ethics in posting. Most
    posts and opinions are just too stupid, igonrant, for me to consider
    replying. If you really belived that some of my opinion or posts are
    wrong, contain bad advice, or wrong fact, then do post, as i do read
    every reply it shows up in groups.google.com. And, whatever is your
    opinion, i would recommend you spend 30 minutes to write your reply.
    (as i do spend 1 to even 6 hours in most of my newsgroup posts as
    explained in detail in one of the above cited article) Also, if the
    subject is unconventional and you see i put forth my opinion
    forcefully, i suggest you take 30 minutes, to think, do research,
    about it before you reply. Also, if prefer to reply to those who post
    with real names.

    Again, i don't consider this is some serious issue, or that my
    opinions and beliefs and behaviors are always correct. It's just
    another newsgroup day. Do whatever it is that you do.

    Xah
    ∑ http://xahlee.org/

    ☄
     
    , Jul 23, 2008
    #8
  9. OT: OT posts [was Re: proliferation of computer languages]

    wrote:
    > • many says i'm posting off topic posts. In recent years they start to
    > say i'm posting tangentially relevant posts. That's not correct. In
    > fact, there are huge number of blatantly off-topics posts by regulars
    > that spawn off from threads, happens regularly. The topics vary
    > anywhere from discussing politics, law, licenses, free speech, math
    > education, yapping on happenings of celebrity programers, and
    > including rampant flamewars and accusations among themselves.


    There is a difference. Many of your claimant off-topic posts are buried
    in the end of threads, not at the explicit start of a thread. In those
    cases, I personally feel that not moving to another forum is trumped by
    the sake of continuity. Even then, it should be indicated as such by OT:
    in the subject, but it gets easy to forget it. Starting a thread that is
    OT does not have such continuity considerations, though.

    And realize that something is not on-topic merely because it's relevant
    to Java programmers. You can see people's responses to one of Roedy's
    threads as an example.

    > • Most newsgroup tech geekers consider cross-posting wrong. I consider
    > the taboo of this convention being a major contribution to the
    > redundant creation of new languages, and foster the hostile faction
    > nature of programing language communities we see.


    X-Posting to groups as diverse as c.l.perl.misc, c.l.python, c.l.lisp,
    c.l.functional, and c.l.java.programmer (the last one especially, as it
    is not a functional language nor will it ever be) is generally a sign
    that you are not X-Posting in a germane fashion. Your original topic
    belongs in comp.programming or maybe (I can see a case for it) in
    c.l.functional, but not the other four groups.


    > I wrote detailed argument about my edit in
    > my Wikipedia's personal talk page. The Wikipedia fuckheads not only
    > ban'd me,


    "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Fragrantly violating the
    established rules of an organization, especially after being reminded of
    these rules, is sufficient cause for disciplinary action.


    And you're entire post gets more and more OT every paragraph. I can in
    no good faith allow this to continue. Setting F-U header to take
    appropriate actions.

    --
    Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
    tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
     
    Joshua Cranmer, Jul 23, 2008
    #9
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