Proposal to create a new mailing list

Discussion in 'Ruby' started by Daniel Schierbeck, Dec 30, 2006.

  1. Hello fellow Rubyphilics!

    As other have remarked, the quality of this list is rapidly declining --
    not because of a lack of participation, but rather because of the
    increase of the same. Each and every question, no matter how nubish, is
    answered, which of course is good. But the deep, poignant (no pun
    intended) discussions seem to have faded in both frequency and quality.

    I therefore propose we establish a ruby-experts (or the like) mailing
    list intended for exactly those discussions.

    Thoughts?


    Daniel Schierbeck
    Daniel Schierbeck, Dec 30, 2006
    #1
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  2. On 30.12.2006 17:07, Daniel Schierbeck wrote:
    > Hello fellow Rubyphilics!
    >
    > As other have remarked, the quality of this list is rapidly declining --
    > not because of a lack of participation, but rather because of the
    > increase of the same. Each and every question, no matter how nubish, is
    > answered, which of course is good. But the deep, poignant (no pun
    > intended) discussions seem to have faded in both frequency and quality.
    >
    > I therefore propose we establish a ruby-experts (or the like) mailing
    > list intended for exactly those discussions.
    >
    > Thoughts?


    Tons

    http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/browse_frm/thread/21d95f5999ab9fb7

    http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/browse_frm/thread/a7fd0a2e47257e2d

    robert
    Robert Klemme, Dec 30, 2006
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. On Sun, Dec 31, 2006 at 01:07:38AM +0900, Daniel Schierbeck wrote:
    } Hello fellow Rubyphilics!
    }
    } As other have remarked, the quality of this list is rapidly declining --
    } not because of a lack of participation, but rather because of the
    } increase of the same. Each and every question, no matter how nubish, is
    } answered, which of course is good. But the deep, poignant (no pun
    } intended) discussions seem to have faded in both frequency and quality.
    }
    } I therefore propose we establish a ruby-experts (or the like) mailing
    } list intended for exactly those discussions.
    }
    } Thoughts?

    First off, I vote no.

    Second, I think there has been a drop-off in "poignant" discussions largely
    because people have settled on what is needed (or, rather, the community's
    view of where Ruby should be going matches Matz's view to a large extent).
    At this point, there are really two major priorities for Ruby: some
    cleanup (piddling missing functionality like blocks that take blocks, code
    cleanup/rewrite, removing syntax ambiguity, a formal specification of the
    language, etc.), and performance (i.e. a VM rather than an interpreter).

    The first is being served by progress toward Ruby 2.0, which mostly gets
    discussed on ruby-core, I think. The second is being addressed by numerous
    initiatives, including YARV, Rubinius, Ruby.NET, Cardinal (Ruby on Parrot,
    which may or may not be dead), and JRuby.

    Third, I think you'll find that a lot of the "poignant" discussion is
    happening on blogs rather than the mailing list. For example, _why's blog
    (Redhanded) is a great place to find some interesting discussion of deep
    Ruby, particularly meta programming.

    Finally, try releasing something cool (that isn't a Rails app or plugin)
    and announcing it. I think you'll find that there is a lot of room on the
    current list for discussion when there is something specific to talk about.
    Not to be a _why fanboy, but Hpricot has gotten numerous discussions going
    both on ruby-talk and on the Rails list.

    } Daniel Schierbeck
    --Greg
    Gregory Seidman, Dec 30, 2006
    #3
  4. On Dec 30, 2006, at 10:07 AM, Daniel Schierbeck wrote:

    > Hello fellow Rubyphilics!
    >
    > As other have remarked, the quality of this list is rapidly
    > declining --
    > not because of a lack of participation, but rather because of the
    > increase of the same. Each and every question, no matter how
    > nubish, is
    > answered, which of course is good. But the deep, poignant (no pun
    > intended) discussions seem to have faded in both frequency and
    > quality.
    >
    > I therefore propose we establish a ruby-experts (or the like) mailing
    > list intended for exactly those discussions.
    >
    > Thoughts?


    Who decides who the experts are?

    James Edward Gray II
    James Edward Gray II, Dec 30, 2006
    #4
  5. Daniel Schierbeck

    Trans Guest

    Daniel Schierbeck wrote:
    > Hello fellow Rubyphilics!
    >
    > As other have remarked, the quality of this list is rapidly declining --
    > not because of a lack of participation, but rather because of the
    > increase of the same. Each and every question, no matter how nubish, is
    > answered, which of course is good. But the deep, poignant (no pun
    > intended) discussions seem to have faded in both frequency and quality.
    >
    > I therefore propose we establish a ruby-experts (or the like) mailing
    > list intended for exactly those discussions.
    >
    > Thoughts?


    While I think it is a worthy idea. But I can tell you from experience
    it probably won't fly unless it gets offical's ruby-lang.org support or
    you are some sort of marketing guru.

    Personally I think all these [Typo] blogs are the bane of of ruby-talk.
    Most posts would be much better served on a mailing list anyway.
    Communicating through blog comments is disorganized, decentralized,
    lacks audiance and cohesion. I think Blog and Ego are too closely
    related. I hope that now that Time's man of the year is the Blogger
    (and other such narcissists.), people can get over the hype and get
    back to better ways of communicating. On occsaion when you do have a
    serious "blogicle" than submitting it to a big name blog like Redhanded
    is a much better idea --more like contributing to a web mag.

    MOLMHO (More Or Less My Humble Opinion),
    T.
    Trans, Dec 30, 2006
    #5
  6. Daniel Schierbeck

    Paulo Köch Guest

    I think Daniel Schierbeck really wanted is to take n00b-caring off =20
    the ml.

    I think this is a good ideia to promote clean, good discussion and =20
    thought sharing. However, if the n00bs were to be "outcast" to a =20
    different system (yes, i think ml is not the best troubleshooting =20
    system), would you still go there and help them? And if you would, =20
    would the majority also go there? I don't think so. IMHO, i think =20
    this would just degrade the level of the community receptiveness. Do =20
    you really want to bipolarize it?

    If you really want poignant discussions, start them and make then =20
    regular. If you want to separate the "n00b noise", encourage tagging =20
    n00b mail. These are my two cents.

    Paulo Jorge Duarte K=F6ch



    On 2006/12/30, at 16:31, Gregory Seidman wrote:

    > On Sun, Dec 31, 2006 at 01:07:38AM +0900, Daniel Schierbeck wrote:
    > } Hello fellow Rubyphilics!
    > }
    > } As other have remarked, the quality of this list is rapidly =20
    > declining --
    > } not because of a lack of participation, but rather because of the
    > } increase of the same. Each and every question, no matter how =20
    > nubish, is
    > } answered, which of course is good. But the deep, poignant (no pun
    > } intended) discussions seem to have faded in both frequency and =20
    > quality.
    > }
    > } I therefore propose we establish a ruby-experts (or the like) =20
    > mailing
    > } list intended for exactly those discussions.
    > }
    > } Thoughts?
    >
    > First off, I vote no.
    >
    > Second, I think there has been a drop-off in "poignant" discussions =20=


    > largely
    > because people have settled on what is needed (or, rather, the =20
    > community's
    > view of where Ruby should be going matches Matz's view to a large =20
    > extent).
    > At this point, there are really two major priorities for Ruby: some
    > cleanup (piddling missing functionality like blocks that take =20
    > blocks, code
    > cleanup/rewrite, removing syntax ambiguity, a formal specification =20
    > of the
    > language, etc.), and performance (i.e. a VM rather than an =20
    > interpreter).
    >
    > The first is being served by progress toward Ruby 2.0, which mostly =20=


    > gets
    > discussed on ruby-core, I think. The second is being addressed by =20
    > numerous
    > initiatives, including YARV, Rubinius, Ruby.NET, Cardinal (Ruby on =20
    > Parrot,
    > which may or may not be dead), and JRuby.
    >
    > Third, I think you'll find that a lot of the "poignant" discussion is
    > happening on blogs rather than the mailing list. For example, =20
    > _why's blog
    > (Redhanded) is a great place to find some interesting discussion of =20=


    > deep
    > Ruby, particularly meta programming.
    >
    > Finally, try releasing something cool (that isn't a Rails app or =20
    > plugin)
    > and announcing it. I think you'll find that there is a lot of room =20
    > on the
    > current list for discussion when there is something specific to =20
    > talk about.
    > Not to be a _why fanboy, but Hpricot has gotten numerous =20
    > discussions going
    > both on ruby-talk and on the Rails list.
    >
    > } Daniel Schierbeck
    > --Greg
    >
    >
    Paulo Köch, Dec 30, 2006
    #6
  7. I think that's going to be a problem with any skill level based
    separator we create: Who is a beginner? Who is an expert? What if a
    beginner has a question that an expert needs to answer? If there
    needs to be a split, perhaps the only way to do it effectively is a
    topic driven one such as another's suggestion to create ruby-talk and
    ruby-help.


    --Jeremy

    On 12/30/06, James Edward Gray II <> wrote:
    > On Dec 30, 2006, at 10:07 AM, Daniel Schierbeck wrote:
    >
    > > Hello fellow Rubyphilics!
    > >
    > > As other have remarked, the quality of this list is rapidly
    > > declining --
    > > not because of a lack of participation, but rather because of the
    > > increase of the same. Each and every question, no matter how
    > > nubish, is
    > > answered, which of course is good. But the deep, poignant (no pun
    > > intended) discussions seem to have faded in both frequency and
    > > quality.
    > >
    > > I therefore propose we establish a ruby-experts (or the like) mailing
    > > list intended for exactly those discussions.
    > >
    > > Thoughts?

    >
    > Who decides who the experts are?
    >
    > James Edward Gray II
    >
    >
    Jeremy McAnally, Dec 30, 2006
    #7
  8. On Sun, 2006-12-31 at 01:39 +0900, James Edward Gray II wrote:
    > On Dec 30, 2006, at 10:07 AM, Daniel Schierbeck wrote:
    >
    > > Hello fellow Rubyphilics!
    > >
    > > As other have remarked, the quality of this list is rapidly
    > > declining --
    > > not because of a lack of participation, but rather because of the
    > > increase of the same. Each and every question, no matter how
    > > nubish, is
    > > answered, which of course is good. But the deep, poignant (no pun
    > > intended) discussions seem to have faded in both frequency and
    > > quality.
    > >
    > > I therefore propose we establish a ruby-experts (or the like) mailing
    > > list intended for exactly those discussions.
    > >
    > > Thoughts?

    >
    > Who decides who the experts are?


    No-one. Those who join the ruby-experts (I really just used "expert" to
    emphasize the higher level of discussion) can discuss topics on an
    expert level. Use whatever word you like, the real question here is
    whether we want two lists at all, not what their respective names should
    be.


    Cheers,
    Daniel
    Daniel Schierbeck, Dec 30, 2006
    #8
  9. Daniel Schierbeck

    James Britt Guest

    Paulo Köch wrote:
    > I think Daniel Schierbeck really wanted is to take n00b-caring off the ml.
    >
    > I think this is a good ideia to promote clean, good discussion and
    > thought sharing. However, if the n00bs were to be "outcast" to a
    > different system (yes, i think ml is not the best troubleshooting
    > system), would you still go there and help them? And if you would, would
    > the majority also go there? I don't think so. IMHO, i think this would
    > just degrade the level of the community receptiveness. Do you really
    > want to bipolarize it?


    I suspect many here are already bipolar.

    :)


    1) Banishing people to a Nuby Ghetto would be a Bad Thing.
    2) Experts? Who decides? How 'bout we call the new list
    "r00by-1337-h4x0rz!1!"

    >
    > If you really want poignant discussions, start them and make then
    > regular. If you want to separate the "n00b noise", encourage tagging
    > n00b mail. These are my two cents.


    Life is what you make it.



    --
    James Britt


    http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
    James Britt, Dec 30, 2006
    #9
  10. Daniel Schierbeck

    matt Guest

    Or how about:

    ruby-lang-new-mailing-list-discussion
    ruby-lang-spam
    ruby-lang-announcements-that-might-be-spam
    ruby-lang-could-someone-do-my-homework-for-me-pretty-please
    =20
    or my favorite:
    ruby-lang-sarcasm :)=20



    Happy New Year everyone!! =20


    Matt


    On Sun, 2006-12-31 at 02:49 +0900, James Britt wrote:
    > Paulo K=C3=B6ch wrote:
    > > I think Daniel Schierbeck really wanted is to take n00b-caring off the =

    ml.
    > >=20
    > > I think this is a good ideia to promote clean, good discussion and=20
    > > thought sharing. However, if the n00bs were to be "outcast" to a=20
    > > different system (yes, i think ml is not the best troubleshooting=20
    > > system), would you still go there and help them? And if you would, woul=

    d=20
    > > the majority also go there? I don't think so. IMHO, i think this would=20
    > > just degrade the level of the community receptiveness. Do you really=20
    > > want to bipolarize it?

    >=20
    > I suspect many here are already bipolar.
    >=20
    > :)
    >=20
    >=20
    > 1) Banishing people to a Nuby Ghetto would be a Bad Thing.=09
    > 2) Experts? Who decides? How 'bout we call the new list=20
    > "r00by-1337-h4x0rz!1!"
    >=20
    > >=20
    > > If you really want poignant discussions, start them and make then=20
    > > regular. If you want to separate the "n00b noise", encourage tagging=20
    > > n00b mail. These are my two cents.

    >=20
    > Life is what you make it.
    >=20
    >=20
    >=20
    matt, Dec 30, 2006
    #10
  11. On Sun, Dec 31, 2006 at 03:00:33AM +0900, matt wrote:
    } Or how about:
    }
    } ruby-lang-new-mailing-list-discussion
    } ruby-lang-spam
    } ruby-lang-announcements-that-might-be-spam
    } ruby-lang-could-someone-do-my-homework-for-me-pretty-please
    }
    } or my favorite:
    } ruby-lang-sarcasm :)

    Best. Post. Ever.

    } Happy New Year everyone!!
    } Matt
    --Greg
    Gregory Seidman, Dec 30, 2006
    #11
  12. Daniel Schierbeck

    Trans Guest

    matt wrote:
    > Or how about:
    >
    > ruby-lang-new-mailing-list-discussion
    > ruby-lang-spam
    > ruby-lang-announcements-that-might-be-spam
    > ruby-lang-could-someone-do-my-homework-for-me-pretty-please
    >
    > or my favorite:
    > ruby-lang-sarcasm :)
    >


    i think too many of you are bending this way out of shape. there are
    good reasons for some division. honestly would you want all ruby-core
    discussions on ruby-talk? how about rails discussions too? why bother
    separating the japanese list from english? come on lets just have one
    one big...

    ruby-enchilada

    t.
    Trans, Dec 30, 2006
    #12
  13. Daniel Schierbeck

    Pit Capitain Guest

    Trans schrieb:
    > (...)
    > Personally I think all these [Typo] blogs are the bane of of ruby-talk.
    > Most posts would be much better served on a mailing list anyway.
    > Communicating through blog comments is disorganized, decentralized,
    > lacks audiance and cohesion. (...)


    +1

    Sometimes I read some blogs about Ruby, and often I wonder why those
    messages aren't posted to ruby-talk. I almost never answer questions or
    participate in discussions there for exactly the reasons you mention.

    Regards,
    Pit
    Pit Capitain, Dec 30, 2006
    #13
  14. Daniel Schierbeck

    Pat Maddox Guest

    On 12/30/06, Pit Capitain <> wrote:
    > Trans schrieb:
    > > (...)
    > > Personally I think all these [Typo] blogs are the bane of of ruby-talk.
    > > Most posts would be much better served on a mailing list anyway.
    > > Communicating through blog comments is disorganized, decentralized,
    > > lacks audiance and cohesion. (...)

    >
    > +1
    >
    > Sometimes I read some blogs about Ruby, and often I wonder why those
    > messages aren't posted to ruby-talk. I almost never answer questions or
    > participate in discussions there for exactly the reasons you mention.


    Why not post to the list with a link to the blog, along with your thoughts?
    Pat Maddox, Dec 30, 2006
    #14
  15. On Dec 30, 2006, at 11:39 AM, James Edward Gray II wrote:

    > Who decides who the experts are?


    Why the experts themselves, of course :) It's an old problem, isn't
    it? Reminds me of Juvenal, the sixth satire: "Sed quis custodiet
    ipsos custodes?" It was probably an old problem already in his day.

    If the list _must_ be split, I urge the split not be made on the
    basis of the poster's level of experience, but on the basis of
    subject matter. I think spinning off a ruby-help list might be
    generally beneficial. Those seeking help on coding or installation
    problems could be more confident that they are posting to the right
    list, and those who wish to avoid reading such posts could simply not
    subscribe. Such a specialization would be commensurable with the
    other specialized mailing lists such as ruby-core.

    Regards, Morton
    Morton Goldberg, Dec 30, 2006
    #15
  16. Daniel Schierbeck wrote:
    > Hello fellow Rubyphilics!
    >
    > As other have remarked, the quality of this list is rapidly declining --
    > not because of a lack of participation, but rather because of the
    > increase of the same.

    I for one -- somewhere between Ruby nuby and Ruby expert but a genuine
    expert in many non-Ruby things -- think this is rubbish! I don't for a
    minute think that the quality of this list is declining, rapidly or
    otherwise.

    --
    M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
    http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

    If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given rabbits fire.
    M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, Dec 30, 2006
    #16
  17. > Why not post to the list with a link to the blog, along with your thoughts?

    I think this is a very good question.

    Blogs are better in some ways. If you blog about the homework you want
    other people to do for you, nobody's ever even going to see it.
    Likewise if you have a thought it takes some time to develop, blogs
    work slower, and encourage slower reactions. The worst blog fights
    I've ever seen have been better than even mild flame wars.

    At the same time, there's are good reasons mailing lists exist. But
    the user of a Ruby mailing list is the Ruby community, and the user of
    a blog about Ruby is also the Ruby community. So the idea that the
    blogs and the mailing lists should serve the community in tandem, that
    is actually a very, very good idea.

    I think that sort of thing happens in general quite naturally, but
    it'd be interesting to see what we could do deliberately to assist it.

    I think that'd be a lot more useful than a ruby-experts list.

    At the same time, I think it'd be really useful to stop the newbies
    from being annoying AND make sure they have a forum to be newbies in.
    There's a great post from Kathy Sierra's blog about how you have to do
    this IF you want your user community to grow. It's targeted of course
    at people who have that as an explicit goal; we seem to have it as a
    phenomenon like the weather, something we can't do anything about
    either way and just have to handle well whether we want to or not. But
    since the community is growing and very probably will continue to
    grow, it's worth thinking about.

    http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2006/12/how_to_build_a_.html

    I think a ruby-answers list might be the most useful thing. People are
    coming onto the general Ruby list to get specific answers, there's a
    type of fun in answering their questions, but it's different from the
    higher-level discussions that can also happen. Dedicating a space to
    that particular type of social interaction might clear this space a
    little bit. (If that is in fact a good goal.)

    --
    Giles Bowkett
    http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
    http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com
    http://gilesgoatboy.blogspot.com
    Giles Bowkett, Dec 30, 2006
    #17
  18. Giles Bowkett wrote:
    > I think a ruby-answers list might be the most useful thing. People are
    > coming onto the general Ruby list to get specific answers, there's a
    > type of fun in answering their questions, but it's different from the
    > higher-level discussions that can also happen.

    Indeed. I learned a lot of Ruby very quickly by answering questions (and
    reading others' answers) on ruby-talk.

    Devin
    Devin Mullins, Dec 30, 2006
    #18
  19. On Sun, 2006-12-31 at 02:14 +0900, Jeremy McAnally wrote:
    > I think that's going to be a problem with any skill level based
    > separator we create: Who is a beginner? Who is an expert? What if a
    > beginner has a question that an expert needs to answer? If there
    > needs to be a split, perhaps the only way to do it effectively is a
    > topic driven one such as another's suggestion to create ruby-talk and
    > ruby-help.


    Much better than my idea. Thanks!


    Cheers,
    Daniel
    Daniel Schierbeck, Dec 30, 2006
    #19
  20. On Sun, 2006-12-31 at 06:27 +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
    > Daniel Schierbeck wrote:
    > > Hello fellow Rubyphilics!
    > >
    > > As other have remarked, the quality of this list is rapidly declining --
    > > not because of a lack of participation, but rather because of the
    > > increase of the same.

    > I for one -- somewhere between Ruby nuby and Ruby expert but a genuine
    > expert in many non-Ruby things -- think this is rubbish! I don't for a
    > minute think that the quality of this list is declining, rapidly or
    > otherwise.


    I agree that it may just be that I'm not as enthusiastic as I have been,
    but I've lost that urge to check the list every few minutes, just to see
    if someone has posted something genius.

    It's very subjective, so I'm basically asking if you're feeling the
    same. You don't seem to, and of that I am jealous :p


    Cheers,
    Daniel
    Daniel Schierbeck, Dec 30, 2006
    #20
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