Pyfora, a place for python

[Saketh]

Hi everyone,

I am proud to announce the release of Pyfora (http://pyfora.org), an
online community of Python enthusiasts to supplement comp.lang.python
and #python. While the site is small right now, please feel free to
register and post any questions or tips you may have.

If you have any suggestions, let me know -- this is a community
effort!

Sincerely,
Saketh (username:catechu)

 

[Paul Rubin]

I am proud to announce the release of Pyfora (http://pyfora.org), an
online community of Python enthusiasts to supplement comp.lang.python
and #python.

And the reason to want to further fragment Python discussion is
exactly what?

 

[alex23]

If you have any suggestions, let me know -- this is a community
effort!

I'd like to suggest Pyaspora as a more apropos name

 

[Daniel Fetchinson]

If you have any suggestions, let me know -- this is a community

Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community.

When a community grows and consequently its needs also grow, how do
you differentiate "natural growth" from "fragmenting the community"?

Same question in another way: let's suppose Tim Peters sent the exact
email the OP sent with the exact same website. Would you have
responded to him the same way?

Rather, please direct seekers to the existing forums (the IRC channel,
the Usenet groups and mailing lists) rather than setting up new walled
gardens.

Cheers,
Daniel

 

[Diez B. Roggisch]

When a community grows and consequently its needs also grow, how do
you differentiate "natural growth" from "fragmenting the community"?

Same question in another way: let's suppose Tim Peters sent the exact
email the OP sent with the exact same website. Would you have
responded to him the same way?

Most probably not - but then because Tim certainly would have discussed this
move with peers from the community, if there is a need for this kind of
forum or not.

Being from germany, I can say that we *have* this fragmentation, and
frankly: I don't like it. I prefer my communication via NNTP/ML, and not
with those visually rather noisy and IMHO suboptimal forums. E.g. it
requires much more effort to get to know what new discussions arose, as
well as following ongoing ones - because the interface lacks a
comprehensive overview of that, and features like "jump to next unread
article".



Diez

 

[Daniel Fetchinson]

If you have any suggestions, let me know -- this is a community

Most probably not - but then because Tim certainly would have discussed this
move with peers from the community, if there is a need for this kind of
forum or not.

Being from germany, I can say that we *have* this fragmentation, and
frankly: I don't like it. I prefer my communication via NNTP/ML, and not
with those visually rather noisy and IMHO suboptimal forums.

If you prefer NNTP/ML, I'd suggest you pay attention to these channels
only. BTW, I prefer ML also and I'm very happy with c.l.p. However
that doesn't mean that I need to be hostile to other forms of
communication and it doesn't mean that I need to discourage people
from setting up other channels of communication for those folks who
prefer them.

If new channels open up for others it will not make c.l.p any worse.
If enough people like c.l.p. it will continue to be a good channel, if
too many too good people switch to an online forum, well, in that case
c.l.p. will cease to be great, but it won't be because of artificial
fragmentation by somebody but because the people started to prefer
online forums (words like "free market" come to mind )

I generally not register on any online forum and will most probably
not register on pyfora either. But I know for a fact that many people
prefer forums over ML and why shouldn't those people be happy with the
communication platform they like and why shouldn't they be given a
chance to join the python community if the only reason they stayed
away was that they didn't like c.l.p. for one reason or another?

E.g. it
requires much more effort to get to know what new discussions arose, as
well as following ongoing ones - because the interface lacks a
comprehensive overview of that, and features like "jump to next unread
article".

These are perfectly legitimate reasons for you to not use online
forums and stick to c.l.p. I do the same thing. But again, if an
enthusiastic python community member wants to open new channels for
those folks who like them, why should anyone be hostile to him/her?

Cheers,
Daniel

 

[Diez B. Roggisch]

If you prefer NNTP/ML, I'd suggest you pay attention to these channels
only. BTW, I prefer ML also and I'm very happy with c.l.p. However
that doesn't mean that I need to be hostile to other forms of
communication and it doesn't mean that I need to discourage people
from setting up other channels of communication for those folks who
prefer them.

Since when is the mere suggestion that fragmentation will occur and if
that's a desirable consequence is hostile? The OP is not bound to it,
and I also don't see the tone used by the two immediate answerers being
hostile. Paul might have been terse - but hostility looks different IMHO.

The OP *might* come to the conclusion that further fragmenting the
community isn't within his personal goals either. OTOH, he might also
simply think that once his forum gained traction, he can switch on the
google ads, and cash in. Which a forum announced by Tim Peters, run
under python.org wouldn't I'd say.

If new channels open up for others it will not make c.l.p any worse.

It will, if they catch on. As some competent people will move away.
Again, this is the case in the german python scene, and it plain sucks.
We have a ML, a NG, and a forum. None of them is synchronized in any
way. We wanted to do this for ML and NG - but the guy responsible for
the ML can't be reached, or refuses to answer.

If we had only one source, fragmentation wouldn't occur, and the
competence would be bundled. That I personally prefer MLs and NGs
doesn't mean that I wouldn't turn to the forum if it was *the* way to
talk about Python. But as it stands, there are three kind of things, of
which I'm already subsribed to two - and am annoyed of people posting
questions in both of them.

Now, I can't do anything about it in the sense that I can forbid it. But
questioning the move to create a new form of exchange (especially
something rather uninspired, in contrast to e.g. stackoverflow) I can.

If enough people like c.l.p. it will continue to be a good channel, if
too many too good people switch to an online forum, well, in that case
c.l.p. will cease to be great, but it won't be because of artificial
fragmentation by somebody but because the people started to prefer
online forums (words like "free market" come to mind )

Yes. Or all of them suck equally. Free market again. I'm not against it,
but asking the OP if he really thinks the value of his forum outweighs
the risk of making existing fora worse is a valid question. Free speech,
one other nice free thing out there.

I generally not register on any online forum and will most probably
not register on pyfora either. But I know for a fact that many people
prefer forums over ML and why shouldn't those people be happy with the
communication platform they like and why shouldn't they be given a
chance to join the python community if the only reason they stayed
away was that they didn't like c.l.p. for one reason or another?


These are perfectly legitimate reasons for you to not use online
forums and stick to c.l.p. I do the same thing. But again, if an
enthusiastic python community member wants to open new channels for
those folks who like them, why should anyone be hostile to him/her?

Again, nobody has been.

Diez

 

[Lorenzo Gatti]

Hi everyone,

I am proud to announce the release of Pyfora (http://pyfora.org), an
online community of Python enthusiasts to supplement comp.lang.python
and #python. While the site is small right now, please feel free to
register and post any questions or tips you may have.

I'll feel free to not even bookmark it. I'm sorry, but it is just a
bad idea.

Your forum cannot (and should not) compete either with Python's
official newsgroup, IRC channel and mailing list or with popular, well-
made and well-frequented general programming sites like
stackoverflow.com.

It would be the Internet equivalent of looking for a poker tournament
in a desert valley instead of driving half an hour less and going to
Las Vegas: there are no incentives to choose your forum, except
perhaps for isolationists who value being a big fish in a small pond
over being part of a community.

If you want to claim a small Python-related corner of the web, you
should write a blog: if it is any good, and probably even if it isn't,
it would be linked and read by someone and it would add to collective
knowledge instead of fragmenting it.

Regards,
Lorenzo Gatti

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

I'll feel free to not even bookmark it. I'm sorry, but it is just a bad
idea.

Your forum cannot (and should not) compete either with Python's official
newsgroup, IRC channel and mailing list or with popular, well- made and
well-frequented general programming sites like stackoverflow.com.

Are you saying that now that comp.lang.python and stackoverflow exists,
there no more room in the world for any more Python forums?

I think that's terrible.

Saketh, would you care to give a brief explanation for sets your forum
apart from the existing Python forums, and why people should choose to
spend time there instead of (or as well as) the existing forums? What
advantages does it have?

It would be the Internet equivalent of looking for a poker tournament in
a desert valley instead of driving half an hour less and going to Las
Vegas: there are no incentives to choose your forum, except perhaps for
isolationists who value being a big fish in a small pond over being part
of a community.

(Funny you mention Las Vegas -- it started off as a tiny little town in
the middle of the desert too.)

How about avoiding the noise and obtrusive advertising and bright lights
of Las Vegas, the fakery, the "showmanship", the horrible fake pyramid
and has-been celebrities, the crowds, the tackiness, the high prices, the
bright lights that never turn off (Las Vegas is the brightest city on
Earth)... if you're interested in poker without all the mayonnaise, maybe
that poker tournament away from the tourists is exactly what you need.

Personally, if I wanted to gamble, the last place I would go is any house
which had gold-plated taps in the bathrooms. That tells me the house's
percentage is *way* too high.

 

[Daniel Fetchinson]

Since when is the mere suggestion that fragmentation will occur and if
that's a desirable consequence is hostile? The OP is not bound to it,
and I also don't see the tone used by the two immediate answerers being
hostile. Paul might have been terse - but hostility looks different IMHO.

I was referring to this comment by Ben:

"Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community."

This IMHO is hostile, because it presupposes that the mere goal of the
OP is fragmenting the community, which is something negative, i.e. it
contains negative prejudice. What I would have written in Ben's place:

Have you considered the possibility that your website will further
fragment the community?

This wouldn't have been hostile, IMHO.

The OP *might* come to the conclusion that further fragmenting the
community isn't within his personal goals either. OTOH, he might also
simply think that once his forum gained traction, he can switch on the
google ads, and cash in. Which a forum announced by Tim Peters, run
under python.org wouldn't I'd say.


It will, if they catch on. As some competent people will move away.

Competent people will only move away if the website is
great/fun/useful/etc. In which case we should welcome it, since
something great/fun/useful/etc is a good thing. If it's not
great/fun/useful/etc competent people will not move away, in which
case c.l.p. will not be any worse as a result of launching the new
website.

Again, this is the case in the german python scene, and it plain sucks.
We have a ML, a NG, and a forum. None of them is synchronized in any
way. We wanted to do this for ML and NG - but the guy responsible for
the ML can't be reached, or refuses to answer.

Welcome to open source, the world of infinitely many forks, code
variants, MLs, forums, NGs, websites, in other words, welcome to the
bazaar!

Cheers,
Daniel

 

[Lorenzo Gatti]

On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 02:11:59 -0800, Lorenzo Gatti wrote: [...]
Are you saying that now that comp.lang.python and stackoverflow exists,
there no more room in the world for any more Python forums?

I think that's terrible.

Although there is a high barrier to entry for general Python forums,
it is not a problem because the door is always open for specialized
forums that become the natural "home" of some group or thought leader
or of some special interest, for example the forum of a new software
product or of the fans of an important blog.

Unfortunately, pyfora.org has neither a distinct crowd behind it nor
an unique topic, and thus no niche to fill; it can only contribute
fragmentation, which is unfortunate because Saketh seems enthusiastic.

What in some fields (e.g. warez forums or art boards) would be healthy
redundancy and competition between sites and forums becomes pure
fragmentation if the only effect of multiple forums is to separate the
same questions and opinions that would be posted elsewhere from
potential readers and answerers.
Reasonable people know this and post their requests for help and
discussions either in the same appropriate places as everyone else or
in random places they know and like; one needs serious personal issues
to abandon popular forums for obscure ones.

Saketh, would you care to give a brief explanation for sets your forum
apart from the existing Python forums, and why people should choose to
spend time there instead of (or as well as) the existing forums? What
advantages does it have?

That's the point, I couldn't put it better.

It would be the Internet equivalent of looking for a poker tournament in
a desert valley instead of driving half an hour less and going to Las
Vegas:
[...]

How about avoiding the noise and obtrusive advertising and bright lights
of Las Vegas, the fakery, the "showmanship",
[...]
if you're interested in poker without all the mayonnaise, maybe
that poker tournament away from the tourists is exactly what you need.

I didn't explain my similitude clearly: I was comparing the fitness
for purpose of going to Las Vegas with a plan to gamble with the
absurdity of stopping, say, at an isolated gas station in the hope of
finding a poker tournament there.
If you are hinting that popular newsgroups and forums might be so full
of fakery, showmanship, mayonnaise, etc. to deserve secession, it's
another topic.

Regards,
Lorenzo Gatti

 

[Gerhard Häring]

Hi everyone,

I am proud to announce the release of Pyfora (http://pyfora.org), an
online community of Python enthusiasts to supplement comp.lang.python
and #python. While the site is small right now, please feel free to
register and post any questions or tips you may have.

I'll feel free to not even bookmark it. I'm sorry, but it is just a
bad idea. [...]

I agree.

Your forum cannot (and should not) compete either with Python's
official newsgroup, IRC channel and mailing list or with popular, well-
made and well-frequented general programming sites like
stackoverflow.com. [...]

The good thing is, unless something the announced new forum gets
critical mass, it will just slowly (or not-so-slowly die).

But even though I'm an old-timer who still prefers newsgroups/mailing
lists, I think that there should be something better, browser based. In
particular supporting moderation/voting and tagging/filtering.

-- Gerhard

 

[Daniel Fetchinson]

I was referring to this comment by Ben:

It presupposes nothing of any goal. It describes a predictable result of
the OP's efforts, and requests those efforts to cease.

So I deny the characterisation of that request as hostile.

Probably this thread is going by far too far but let's see this again,

If A says to B "please don't do X" then A assumes that B does X.
Otherwise the request of A doesn't make sense, since it doesn't make
sense to ask somebody not to do something that he/she is not doing.

Agreed?

If no, please explain why you don't agree.

If yes, then I guess we will also agree that if A says to B "please
don't make efforts to do X" then request of A only makes sense if B
makes an effort to do X.

Agreed?

If no, please explain why.

If yes, great, let's continue! If A says to B "please don't make
efforts to fragment the community" then this request from A only makes
sense if B makes an effort to fragment the community.

Agreed?

If no, why not?

If yes, we are almost there! In our example the request of A only
makes sense if B is making an effort to fragment the community, in
other words, assuming that A tries to make a meaningful request, A is
assuming that B is making an effort to fragment the community.

Agreed?

If not, why not?

If yes, with the substitution A = Ben and B = OP we get "in order for
Ben's request to make sense, Ben has to assume that the OP is making
an effort to fragment the community". This assumption on the part of
Ben, I think, is hostile, since it assumes that the OP is making an
effort to do something not nice. Whether the OP is indeed doing
something not nice, is irrelevant. If the OP does do something not
nice, the hostility is warranted. If the OP is not doing anything not
nice, the hostility is unwarranted. But the fact that Ben was hostile
is a fact

Cheers,
Daniel

 

[Diez B. Roggisch]

Since when is the mere suggestion that fragmentation will occur and if

I was referring to this comment by Ben:

"Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community."

This IMHO is hostile, because it presupposes that the mere goal of the
OP is fragmenting the community, which is something negative, i.e. it
contains negative prejudice. What I would have written in Ben's place:

Have you considered the possibility that your website will further
fragment the community?

This wouldn't have been hostile, IMHO.

Well, this is *deep* into the realms of semantics and dialectics. To an
extend that personal prejudice would change the perception of the sentence.
If everything posted here (and elsewhere) had to be worded so carefully,
we'd hardly discussing anything at all.

Competent people will only move away if the website is
great/fun/useful/etc. In which case we should welcome it, since
something great/fun/useful/etc is a good thing. If it's not
great/fun/useful/etc competent people will not move away, in which
case c.l.p. will not be any worse as a result of launching the new
website.

There is not only the problem of people moving away - but also of them not
even finding *this* place to discuss because they found pyfora first, and
thus the "danger" of them getting not the good answers they are looking
for. This sometimes already happens, if one of the google ad farms out
there that tries to lure people onto their pages simply reproduces c.l.py
content - and people believe it's a genuine forum - and wonder why they
don't get answers there.

Welcome to open source, the world of infinitely many forks, code
variants, MLs, forums, NGs, websites, in other words, welcome to the
bazaar!

Oh please. If every dissent on the direction of an open-source project (or
commercial one) would lead to forking, we'd end up with a lot of projects
which none of them being competitive and mature. So can we scrap this
straw-man of an argument?

Diez

 

[Ethan Furman]

[mass snippitude]

If yes, with the substitution A = Ben and B = OP we get "in order for
Ben's request to make sense, Ben has to assume that the OP is making
an effort to fragment the community". This assumption on the part of
Ben, I think, is hostile, since it assumes that the OP is making an
effort to do something not nice. Whether the OP is indeed doing
something not nice, is irrelevant. If the OP does do something not
nice, the hostility is warranted. If the OP is not doing anything not
nice, the hostility is unwarranted. But the fact that Ben was hostile
is a fact

You were doing fine until you brought in the hostility. I must agree
with Ben that his comment was not hostile. It was merely a statement.
Not an exclamation, no name calling, just a plain request rooted in reality.

And that's a fact. ;-)

Shall we now discuss the nature of the space/time continuum and the
exact reality of quarks?

~Ethan~

 

[Daniel Fetchinson]

I was referring to this comment by Ben:

[mass snippitude]

If yes, with the substitution A = Ben and B = OP we get "in order for
Ben's request to make sense, Ben has to assume that the OP is making
an effort to fragment the community". This assumption on the part of
Ben, I think, is hostile, since it assumes that the OP is making an
effort to do something not nice. Whether the OP is indeed doing
something not nice, is irrelevant. If the OP does do something not
nice, the hostility is warranted. If the OP is not doing anything not
nice, the hostility is unwarranted. But the fact that Ben was hostile
is a fact

You were doing fine until you brought in the hostility. I must agree
with Ben that his comment was not hostile. It was merely a statement.
Not an exclamation, no name calling, just a plain request rooted in reality.

Okay, before we get to quarks let's see what 'hostile' means

From Merriam-Webster http://www.learnersdictionary.net/dictionary/hostile :

1 a : of or relating to an enemy <hostile fire>
b : marked by malevolence <a hostile act>
c : openly opposed or resisting <a hostile critic> <hostile to new ideas>
d (1) : not hospitable <plants growing in a hostile environment>
(2) : having an intimidating, antagonistic, or offensive nature
<a hostile workplace>

Now, I think the OP was perceived by Ben as doing something which he
thinks is not good. We most probably agree on this. In other words,
Ben was opposing the OP's ideas. Yet in other words, Ben was resisting
the OP's ideas. And yet in other words, Ben was not hospitable. So
perhaps 1a and 1b doesn't quite fit the bill since Ben didn't go as
far as call the OP an enemy and he wasn't evil or wished harm to the
OP, but 1c and d(1) are certainly correctly describing his behavior
and to a lesser extent d(2) as well.

And the quarks......

Cheers,
Daniel

 

[Daniel Fetchinson]

Hi everyone,

Are you saying that now that comp.lang.python and stackoverflow exists,
there no more room in the world for any more Python forums?
Exactly.

I think that's terrible.
Exactly.

Saketh, would you care to give a brief explanation for sets your forum
apart from the existing Python forums, and why people should choose to
spend time there instead of (or as well as) the existing forums? What
advantages does it have?

Yes, this is about the right kind of response I think everybody
deserves who puts energy/enthusiasm/effort/time into putting together
a python-related forum.

Cheers,
Daniel

 

[Ethan Furman]

I was referring to this comment by Ben:

"Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community."

This IMHO is hostile, because it presupposes that the mere goal of the
OP is fragmenting the community

It presupposes nothing of any goal. It describes a predictable result of
the OP's efforts, and requests those efforts to cease.

So I deny the characterisation of that request as hostile.

[mass snippitude]

If yes, with the substitution A = Ben and B = OP we get "in order for
Ben's request to make sense, Ben has to assume that the OP is making
an effort to fragment the community". This assumption on the part of
Ben, I think, is hostile, since it assumes that the OP is making an
effort to do something not nice. Whether the OP is indeed doing
something not nice, is irrelevant. If the OP does do something not
nice, the hostility is warranted. If the OP is not doing anything not
nice, the hostility is unwarranted. But the fact that Ben was hostile
is a fact

You were doing fine until you brought in the hostility. I must agree
with Ben that his comment was not hostile. It was merely a statement.
Not an exclamation, no name calling, just a plain request rooted in reality.

Okay, before we get to quarks let's see what 'hostile' means

From Merriam-Webster http://www.learnersdictionary.net/dictionary/hostile :

1 a : of or relating to an enemy <hostile fire>
b : marked by malevolence <a hostile act>
c : openly opposed or resisting <a hostile critic> <hostile to new ideas>
d (1) : not hospitable <plants growing in a hostile environment>
(2) : having an intimidating, antagonistic, or offensive nature
<a hostile workplace>

Now, I think the OP was perceived by Ben as doing something which he
thinks is not good. We most probably agree on this. In other words,
Ben was opposing the OP's ideas. Yet in other words, Ben was resisting
the OP's ideas. And yet in other words, Ben was not hospitable. So
perhaps 1a and 1b doesn't quite fit the bill since Ben didn't go as
far as call the OP an enemy and he wasn't evil or wished harm to the
OP, but 1c and d(1) are certainly correctly describing his behavior
and to a lesser extent d(2) as well.

AH hahahahahahah.

Okay, you got me. However, if we're going to start looking up the exact
denotations of words to justify our remarks, surely we should also pay
attention to the connotations? In normal, everyday speach the
denotations of 'resisting' and 'opposed to' are very different from
'hostile' -- hence such phrases as 'resisting with hostility' and
'hostiley opposed to'.

In other words, I'll grant you the win of that hair, but I still would
not characterize it as hostile. ;-)

~Ethan~

 

[Alan Franzoni]

Being from germany, I can say that we *have* this fragmentation, and
frankly: I don't like it. I prefer my communication via NNTP/ML, and not
with those visually rather noisy and IMHO suboptimal forums. E.g. it

That's right... forums, although more "accessible" to all the people who
can't/doesn't want to use specific email or nntp clients, are quite slow
to use.

But I think Ubuntu forums support threads and are kind of "channeled"
between ML and webinterface... something like Google Groups; I think
THAT would be a good idea. What about trying to "channel"
comp.lang.python and a forum?

 

[Ned Deily]

That's right... forums, although more "accessible" to all the people who
can't/doesn't want to use specific email or nntp clients, are quite slow
to use.

But I think Ubuntu forums support threads and are kind of "channeled"
between ML and webinterface... something like Google Groups; I think
THAT would be a good idea. What about trying to "channel"
comp.lang.python and a forum?

comp.lang.python *is* already "channel"ed in multiple venues: the Usenet
group itself, the base python.org mailing list, gmane.org (NNTP
newsgroup from the mailing list, various web interfaces, RSS feed),
google groups, and others.