Python Evangelism

[Fredrik Lundh]

That doesn't make Python easier to sell here...

verkligen? jag kan inte påminna mig om att någon någonsin langat
upp det argumentet, annat än möjligen som ett tamt skämt...

(borde du inte vara ute på stan och svira, förresten, istället för att
sitta på jobbet så här sent? ;-)

</F>

 

[Tim Churches]

And re Cheeseshop, yes, it's a poor name when you consider that the
point of the skit was that the cheeseshop _had no cheese_, whose only
purpose was to "deliberately waste your time." Not a great name for a
package library, especially for those in the know of Python humor!

"Cheese shop" is intended as a double irony, surely? I suppose some
cultures (and certain types of people, especially PHBs) are challenged
by single irony, let alone a double dose.

Tim C

 

[Tim Churches]

Ruby didn't start catching on until Ruby on Rails came out. If Python
has a naming problem, it's with the name of Django, rather than
Python. Firstly, Django doesn't have "Python" in the name, so it
doesn't popularize the language behind it, even should Django become
very popular. Secondly, Django just doesn't have the ring of "Ruby on
Rails". They should change the name to "Blood Python" instead. Okay,
well, maybe not. How about "Green Tree Python"? Hmmm, kind of
boring. Well, maybe "Python on the Bullet Train"? Okay, too
derivative. "Maglev Python"? "Python with Panache"? "Python on
Prozac"?

How about Amethyst? As in "amethyst python" - see
http://www.stthomasschool.org/Classrooms/ausnz/AmPython.htm

Of course, although amethyst was originally considered a "cardinal gem"
alongside ruby, it no longer is since huge quantities were discovered in
Brazil - at least, that's what is says here:
http://www.answers.com/topic/gemstone-1

I give up. In any case, I'm sure Django was a great musician, but the
product needs a better name to have any chance of displacing Rails.

I find the Django name tres cool and am considering changing the names
of two Python projects on which I am working to Thelonious and Miles.

Tim C

 

[Andrew Gwozdziewycz]

I agree that names are very important -- Java would never have caught

on the way that it did if Sun had left the name as "Oak". I think
you're wrong about the name "Python", though. Snakes are cool and
have street cred. That's why there are cars with names like "Cobra"
and "Viper".

It doesn't matter if the average joe is scared when they see a folder
named "python" on their computer, as the average joe isn't a
programmer.

Ruby didn't start catching on until Ruby on Rails came out. If Python
has a naming problem, it's with the name of Django, rather than
Python. Firstly, Django doesn't have "Python" in the name, so it
doesn't popularize the language behind it, even should Django become
very popular. Secondly, Django just doesn't have the ring of "Ruby on
Rails". They should change the name to "Blood Python" instead. Okay,
well, maybe not. How about "Green Tree Python"? Hmmm, kind of
boring. Well, maybe "Python on the Bullet Train"? Okay, too
derivative. "Maglev Python"? "Python with Panache"? "Python on
Prozac"?

I'll admit "Ruby on Rails" is a clever name. The fact that you mention
it "didn't catch on"
is only partially true. Popular? Not by any means, but there were a
good number of users
before Rails. Quite a lot of libraries and a very usable language.
Rails did however
jump start it's new career as the definitive web2.0 language, but who
cares? Not me!

We're talking python here. There's no need for Python to have "Python
on Cables" or
some other equally stupid named project. Python doesn't even need to
be the definitive web
language. Who cares? Use it if you want to to build a website. Hell I
like django quite
a bit, but anyone writing something for django knows it's written in
python. Anyone
writing something with Ruby On Rails knows that ruby is the language
behind it. Does
some non programmer care? No. If some non-programmer decided to
create a new web
app, and his friend said, 'I hear django is quick and oh, it use's
this really cool easy to learn
language python,' What's the difference? Is calling it Python on Trees
any different? The
guy doesn't know what python on is, let alone why it's on trees?

 

[Terry Hancock]

It's not too late to rename the cheese shop though.
(We don't need even more stink...)

I love cheese, so no problem on that score. But the
problem is, if you actually know where "Python" comes
from, you are likely to suspect that said site contains
no cheese.

I think even GvR mentioned this at PyCon. ;-)

OTOH, I guess ironic naming can be cool, too.

I'm still a little put off by "Dogpile" though. And
isn't there a language called "brainfuck" or something?

So "python" is hardly the worst.

Reminds me of Slartibartfast's original name in the
Hitchhiker's radio scripts -- the point being that he
has this really embarrassing name and doesn't want to
talk about it. The original joke was funnier (but
unbroadcastable). Even now I'm wondering if some
filter is going to kill this message.

Anyway, "python" could theoretically apply the
"bad=good" marketing, although something venomous
would probably be more effective.

Cheers,
Terry

 

[UrsusMaximus]

Python is a friendly name, like Mickey Mouse. If you saw a real mouse
(or worse, a rat), you wouldn't likely fall in love with it; but Mickey
is about as good a marketing icon as any in history.

Python also has staying power. Snakes may be scary and even dangerous,
but they get respect; think about the symbol for medical science.

A friendly snake is a good snake, and the Python logo snake is very
friendly.

In fact, If there's one word I would suggest as a slogan for Python,
it's "friendly". Python is friendly for Linux users, friendly for Mac
OS X users, friendly for Windows users, friendly to JVM users, and
handheld users; friendly for web server programmers, client-side GUI
programmers, etc.

Python has a friendly community, is friendly to experts, and friendly
to newbies.

Heck, we're even friendly to other programming language communities
;-)))

Ron Stephens
Python411
www.awaretek.com/python/index.html

 

[John Pote]

This thread was great entertainment at the end of today reading down the
screen with a beer going down on the side. Here's my penny's worth:

Over this side of the pond the good old British Post Office changed its name
to 'Consignia' in 2001. After a year and a bit they chucked the fancy new
name for the old one - 'Post Office'. Although I scan the trade rags I
missed the editorial announcing hp re-branding some of its products (test
and measurement) Agilent and it confused me for some time as I saw Agilent
products advertised that looked just like hp ones. (And I still think of my
"Agilent" oscilloscope as an 'hp', this probably reflects my middle years!)

As no one in this thread has said why Python is so good here's my reasons.

The text
print "hello world"
stuck in a file and executed actually works and does exactly what it says on
the tin - great for knocking up simple procedural scripts. On the other hand
there's lots of freely available modules in the standard lib and 'out there'
for doing full blown OO programming for complex multi-threaded apps. (I'm
currently looking at Twisted for a distributed internet app - looks good so
far)

wxPython + Glade I'm finding is a good combination for putting together
Python + GUI apps.

No compile then link (while I go and make a coffee, stare out the window . .
.. ) stage, write once run anywhere.

what's in a name? fortran, algol, rexx, hope, haskell, pascal, modula,
eiffel, B, C, J, tcl, pearl, ruby, rebol, cobol, basic, vb, .net, assembler,
forth, snobol, ada, prolog, simula, smalltalk, oberon, dylan, bob, ML et al
ad nauseum.
- is Python any less meaningful? Anyway I LIKE the chesse shop sketch!

active news group that's always been helpful

One language does full blown apps and simple desktop scripts.

It's more readable than other languages I've looked at.

Any suggestions for improvement?

Well yes,
mainly documentation - especially exceptions. The principle of exceptions is
described well in the reference manual and standard books. What I mean is
the ref manual often buries exception details in the text description and
gives only outline detail of the exception's cause(s) and details of the
exception object. Some lib modules do state that other exceptions may be
thrown but unless they are listed how can robust programmes be written? The
httplib does list the HTTPException based exceptions but there is no mention
of the 'socket' exceptions that can be thrown. This leaves the programmer
with using a catch all (frowned upon) or scanning through hundreds/thousands
of lines of code in possibly deeply nested modules.

The beer's run out so I'll stop here.

keep at it everyone, best regards,

John Pote

 

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

I'll admit "Ruby on Rails" is a clever name. The fact that you mention

Unless one's first thought is that the "rails" in question are
long-legged shore birds.

PERL's before Swine?
--

 

[Terry Hancock]

I see your points Terry. And I understand the need for
tinkerers and the value of knowing what options are
available in a given language.

But, I think relying on the language as a selling
point/feature is short sighted. I can't recall any program
that has gained mass acceptance who's selling point was
"written in ..."

That makes sense if the author's objective is "mass
acceptance". But that's not what you get "paid" for on
an open source project.

Payment -- in the form of contributions to your project --
occurs because you attract people who share your interest
in working on the code.

Of course, this really depends a lot on who the author is,
and what their motivations were in creating the package.

But in the classic "scratch an itch"/"single developer
working in their spare time" scenario, it's pretty
common.

It's also probably a bit much to expect "savvy marketing"
from said back room developer. ;-)

It helps if you think of it as a "swap meet" instead
of a "department store".

In the case of language evangelism, It'd be nice if kick
ass programs were produced that revolutionized computing
and how people communicate. If they were written in a
language that I already know and can extend if I desire,
even better. if the equation were flipped and it was just
a program written in a language I know, but does not do
anything of value for me that isn't already fulfilled
elsewhere, then it essentially holds no value.

That would be true if programs were atomic. But it
quite frequently happens that a program which provides
a "mundane" piece of programming infrastructure (say
an email client) is a useful part to add to that
"revolutionary" application that you've been tinkering
with for the last few months.

Anyway, I think most of us are into evolution more than
revolution. The latter is more newsworthy, but the former
is where most of the action is most of the time. Kind
of like any field in science or engineering.

why did you reply to me instead of the list?

Thumbfingered, I guess. ;-) I've responded to both and
left myself quoted. Normally, my client *does* respond
automatically to the list, I'm not sure why it didn't
this time.

Cheers,
Terry

 

[Kay Schluehr]

They do this on purpose in the U.S. A country full
of religious fanatics, where it's impossible to be
elected president unless you claim that you are a
devoted Christian and say "God bless America" every
time you open your mouth.

Maybe Pythonistas should make a cultural investment in emergent
markets?

http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_naga.htm

Kay

 

[Tim Churches]

Maybe Pythonistas should make a cultural investment in emergent
markets?

http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_naga.htm

I notice the above page mentions Glykon - see also
http://www.livius.org/gi-gr/glykon/glykon.html

I think that Glykon should be invited to be the sponsoring divinity for
PyCon next year. I hear that worship of pagan gods is, like everything
else, bigger in Texas.

Tim C

 

[Juho Schultz]

I think you have a point, but I also think it's a bit
late to change it after 15 years or so, considering all
books, web sites etc. We're stuck with Python, and can
only do the best of that. Actually, in Swedish, "Jag
mår pyton" i.e. "I feel like python" means "I feel
sick", and "det luktar pyton" i.e. "it smells python",
means "it stinks". That doesn't make Python easier to
sell here... Still to late to change...

In Finnish "ajaa käärme pyssyyn" ("force a snake into a rifle") means
doing something almost impossible. If you have to put a snake into a
rifle, try Python - a bite does not kill you. So it works both ways.

I think a good example on the problem with letting
techies like us do naming is that grand successor
of Unix developed by the great minds at Bell Labs.

First, they name it after a movie which is famous
for being exceptionally bad--Plan 9 (from outer space).
Really grand company there!

Then, when they make a real product of it, they call
it Inferno, and some part of it gets called Limbo.

"Inferno - the Lamborghini Diablo of operating systems"
What is the problem here?

 

[Ant]

It's not too late to rename the cheese shop though.

(We don't need even more stink...)

What kind of cheese do you guys eat anyway ;-)

It's not the names that are the problem as far as markleing goes - they
are not dull names, which means they won't be forgotten. This is a good
thing! As is the humour - who amongst us are going to forget where the
repository for community projects are? Unlike RubyJewels, RubyBaubles
or whatever ;-)

As long as the names are memorable, marketing isn't an issue if it
want's to be done. For example the famous British inventors Wallace and
Gromit could be asked to endorse Python, ("Look Gromit - a Cheese
shop!"). And there is a successful web-based credit card called an Egg
card.

A Python is a good powerful image to have associated with the language.
What does Ruby say? That the language is pretty? And Perl? Misleading
advertising there then ;-) Ever seen a Python? Powerful, elegant, and
can digest just about anything you can feed it... good image I reckon!

I'm obviously not suggesting we do such a thing, just pointing out a
couple of things:

1) There's nothing wrong with the names we've got.
2) Some people on this newsgroup need to clean their fridges out more
often!

 

[Terry Hancock]

I think that Glykon should be invited to be the sponsoring
divinity for PyCon next year. I hear that worship of pagan
gods is, like everything else, bigger in Texas.

Ignoring the silly Python jokes, *is* PyCON going to be in
Texas next year? I wasn't sure what would happen, since it
was in Washington DC the last (first?) 3 years, according to
the website. Would be great for me if true, since I live
there.

 

[Steve Holden]

Ignoring the silly Python jokes, *is* PyCON going to be in
Texas next year? I wasn't sure what would happen, since it
was in Washington DC the last (first?) 3 years, according to
the website. Would be great for me if true, since I live
there.

Yes, 2007 will be at the same place as 2006.

regards
Steve

 

[Paul Boddie]

Over this side of the pond the good old British Post Office changed its name
to 'Consignia' in 2001.

I thought it was actually the Royal Mail, but the brand history can be
found here:

http://www.royalmailgroup.com/aboutus/aboutus8.asp

The fact that people confuse "Royal Mail" with "Post Office" might
suggest something to brand experts, but I'd argue that pulling one of
the names out of use, especially the one people tend not to use (but
the one they've now chosen for the parent company), would suggest
something else to normal people: it would either weaken the dual-named
"superbrand" or merely be regarded with contempt. Examples can be found
for this and other re-branding cases quite readily on the Internet, but
don't search for 'Consignia "Royal Mail"' in Google, though, as it
seems to result in a bizarre error page:

"""
We're sorry...
.... but your query looks similar to automated requests from a computer
virus or spyware application. To protect our users, we can't process
your request right now.
"""

Anyway, aside from bizarre technical moments like this, what you've
described can probably be termed "brand suicide": the scrapping of a
recognisable brand identity with something fashionable at a particular
point in time that looks dated within a few years, and which has people
wondering who they're doing business with (despite extensive
publicity), only to discover that it's been the same company all along.

[...]

what's in a name? fortran, algol, rexx, hope, haskell, pascal, modula,
eiffel, B, C, J, tcl, pearl, ruby, rebol, cobol, basic, vb, .net, assembler,
forth, snobol, ada, prolog, simula, smalltalk, oberon, dylan, bob, ML et al
ad nauseum.
- is Python any less meaningful? Anyway I LIKE the chesse shop sketch!

The problem with the Cheese Shop name, aside from sounding ridiculous,
is that it isn't self-explanatory in an area which needs
self-explanatory labelling. Consider the following conversations:

A: "I need to find something in Python that does this."
B: "Have you tried the Python Package Index?"
A: "Don't know why I didn't think of that!"

A: "I need to find something in Python that does this."
B: "Have you tried the Cheese Shop?"
A: "WTF is that?"
[Lengthy, embarrassed explanation follows.]

Bizarre names may be cute (to some people) but they don't lend
themselves to guessing or searching. Consequently, people who want
answers yesterday aren't likely to be amused to eventually discover
that the name of the resource they've been looking for is some opaque,
three-levels-of-indirection-via-irony, in-crowd joke. And even acronyms
like CPAN are better than wacky names, anyway.

Paul

 

[Steve Holden]

Over this side of the pond the good old British Post Office changed its name
to 'Consignia' in 2001.

I thought it was actually the Royal Mail, but the brand history can be
found here:

http://www.royalmailgroup.com/aboutus/aboutus8.asp

The fact that people confuse "Royal Mail" with "Post Office" might
suggest something to brand experts, but I'd argue that pulling one of
the names out of use, especially the one people tend not to use (but
the one they've now chosen for the parent company), would suggest
something else to normal people: it would either weaken the dual-named
"superbrand" or merely be regarded with contempt. Examples can be found
for this and other re-branding cases quite readily on the Internet, but
don't search for 'Consignia "Royal Mail"' in Google, though, as it
seems to result in a bizarre error page:

"""
We're sorry...
... but your query looks similar to automated requests from a computer
virus or spyware application. To protect our users, we can't process
your request right now.
"""

Anyway, aside from bizarre technical moments like this, what you've
described can probably be termed "brand suicide": the scrapping of a
recognisable brand identity with something fashionable at a particular
point in time that looks dated within a few years, and which has people
wondering who they're doing business with (despite extensive
publicity), only to discover that it's been the same company all along.

[...]

what's in a name? fortran, algol, rexx, hope, haskell, pascal, modula,
eiffel, B, C, J, tcl, pearl, ruby, rebol, cobol, basic, vb, .net, assembler,
forth, snobol, ada, prolog, simula, smalltalk, oberon, dylan, bob, ML et al
ad nauseum.
- is Python any less meaningful? Anyway I LIKE the chesse shop sketch!

The problem with the Cheese Shop name, aside from sounding ridiculous,
is that it isn't self-explanatory in an area which needs
self-explanatory labelling. Consider the following conversations:

A: "I need to find something in Python that does this."
B: "Have you tried the Python Package Index?"
A: "Don't know why I didn't think of that!"

A: "I need to find something in Python that does this."
B: "Have you tried the Cheese Shop?"
A: "WTF is that?"
[Lengthy, embarrassed explanation follows.]

Bizarre names may be cute (to some people) but they don't lend
themselves to guessing or searching. Consequently, people who want
answers yesterday aren't likely to be amused to eventually discover
that the name of the resource they've been looking for is some opaque,
three-levels-of-indirection-via-irony, in-crowd joke. And even acronyms
like CPAN are better than wacky names, anyway.

Paul

All true to some extent, but rather negated byt he fact that the first
Google hot for "python package" is:

Python Cheese Shop : Home
Updated, Package, Description. 2006-03-09, PyISAPIe 1.0.0, Python ISAPI
.... 2006-03-07, matplotlib 0.87.1, Matlab(TM) style python plotting
package ...
cheeseshop.python.org/pypi - 10k - 8 Mar 2006 - Cached - Similar pages

I still wish it had some explanaotry text on there, though. i can't help
agreeing with you that "Cheese Shop" is just, well, cheesy.

regards
Steve

 

[Benny]

Bizarre names may be cute (to some people) but they don't lend
themselves to guessing or searching. Consequently, people who want
answers yesterday aren't likely to be amused to eventually discover
that the name of the resource they've been looking for is some opaque,
three-levels-of-indirection-via-irony, in-crowd joke. And even acronyms
like CPAN are better than wacky names, anyway.

To emphasize the point as a newbie: I know what CPAN is. I would go to
the Vaults of Parnassus for Python stuff. But Cheese Shop?

 

[Andrew Gwozdziewycz]

To emphasize the point as a newbie: I know what CPAN is. I would go to

the Vaults of Parnassus for Python stuff. But Cheese Shop?

Well, why don't we promote it as PyPI (Python Package Index)? The url
_is_ python.org/pypi, and I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that PyPI
was the intended name... If the community then decides on some
standardized automated package management, I'm sure PyPI (cheese shop)
would probably be the definitive repository.

$ pypi install hello

is much better than

$ bluecheese install hello

 

[Tim Parkin]

Well, why don't we promote it as PyPI (Python Package Index)? The url
_is_ python.org/pypi, and I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that PyPI
was the intended name... If the community then decides on some
standardized automated package management, I'm sure PyPI (cheese shop)
would probably be the definitive repository.

$ pypi install hello

is much better than

$ bluecheese install hello

I have to say I prefer pypi myself.. I think it's a great idea
subtitling it 'cheeseshop' but referring to it directly as "cheeseshop"
is confusing at best. I've already had a few requests to change the text
of the link on the home page to 'packages' or 'package index'.

Tim Parkin