Python - NAWIT / Community

[flebber]

I just wanted to put out a question about IDE's but this is NAWIT -
not another which ide thread.

My question relates to community contribution. My concern arose when
recently installing the pydev.org extensions in Eclipse. Now as far as
my understanding goes the licensing on both is open source GPL.
However Pydev became open source as part of aptana's acquistion, and
for the moment pydev can be installed as part of the Aptana studio 2/3
releases individually as a plugin, but moving on if you vist the
aptana site there is sweet little about python on their site, their
site is dominated by Radrails.

Can't help thinking they open sourced Pydev so they could bench it. So
I started thinking that the only consistent env each python person has
is idle as it ships in the install.

Sometimes we can contribute with money and sometimes with time, if I
was to contribute money to ensure that I and all new coming python
programmers could have a first class development environment to use
what would I donate to? At the moment no particular group seems
applicable.

Is pydev actively being developed and for who? SPE is a great idea but
is Stan still developing? Pyscripter is good but not 64 capable. Plus
none of these projects seem community centric.

Maybe its just my wish, maybe something already exists, but to my mind
why is there not a central python community ide or plugin setup like
pydev or using pydev(since currently it is very good - to me), which I
know or at least could confidently donate time or money to further
python.

This could apply to many python area's does python use easy_install or
pypm, well if you want camelot or zope (unless you have business
edition) its easy_install, but you wont find an ide with built in egg
or pypm support? Why every Ruby ide has gems manager, and for that
fact look at netbeans, the ide is good but support for python is
mentioned on a far flung community page where some developers are
trying to maintain good python support. PS they seem to be doing a
good job, but a review of the mailing list archives shows little
activity.

One could say that activestate puts in good support but then they do
not provide an ide within the means of the average part time person
retailing its main edition at over $300, Pycharm a good ide at $99 but
then where is my money going.

I think a community plugin architecture which contained components
like pydev, pyscripter, eclipse and eggs/pypm packages would give a
place I can contribute time as my skills grow and confidently donate
money knowing I am assisting the development of community tools and
packages we all can use. No need to reinvent the wheel most things
already exist, for example apt-get & rpm style package management time
tested and could be easily used to manage python eggs for example.

Anyway I have had my 2 cents, if someone is contributing more than I
know, and this wasn't intended to dimnish anyone's effort, just
wanting to look to growing and fostering a stronger python community.

Sayth

 

[Adam Tauno Williams]

Can't help thinking they open sourced Pydev so they could bench it.

So? That isn't uncommon at all; to Open Source when you've moved on.

I started thinking that the only consistent env each python person has
is idle as it ships in the install.

There is a plethora of Python IDE's [personally I use Monodevelop, which
supports Python, and is fast and stable].

Sometimes we can contribute with money and sometimes with time, if I
was to contribute money to ensure that I and all new coming python
programmers could have a first class development environment to use
what would I donate to? At the moment no particular group seems
applicable.

Many projects accept donations via PayPal. Sourceforge supports this.

Is pydev actively being developed and for who? SPE is a great idea but
is Stan still developing? Pyscripter is good but not 64 capable. Plus
none of these projects seem community centric.

Why not just check the repo and see the real answer for yourself? It is
Open Source after all.

Maybe its just my wish, maybe something already exists, but to my mind
why is there not a central python community ide or plugin setup like
pydev or using pydev(since currently it is very good - to me), which I
know or at least could confidently donate time or money to further
python.

You could checkout the code of any Python IDE and hack on it.

I think a community plugin architecture which contained components
like pydev, pyscripter, eclipse and eggs/pypm packages would give a
place I can contribute time as my skills grow and confidently donate
money knowing I am assisting the development of community tools and
packages we all can use.

So just do it.

 

[flebber]

Can't help thinking they open sourced Pydev so they could bench it.

So?  That isn't uncommon at all;  to Open Source when you've moved on..

I started thinking that the only consistent env each python person has
is idle as it ships in the install.

There is a plethora of Python IDE's [personally I use Monodevelop, which
supports Python, and is fast and stable].

Sometimes we can contribute with money and sometimes with time, if I
was to contribute money to ensure that I and all new coming python
programmers could have a first class development environment to use
what would I donate to? At the moment no particular group seems
applicable.

Many projects accept donations via PayPal.  Sourceforge supports this.

Is pydev actively being developed and for who? SPE is a great idea but
is Stan still developing? Pyscripter is good but not 64 capable. Plus
none of these projects seem community centric.

Why not just check the repo and see the real answer for yourself?  It is
Open Source after all.

Maybe its just my wish, maybe something already exists, but to my mind
why is there not a central python community ide or plugin setup like
pydev or using pydev(since currently it is very good - to me), which I
know or at least could confidently donate time or money to further
python.

You could checkout the code of any Python IDE and hack on it.

I think a community plugin architecture which contained components
like pydev, pyscripter, eclipse and eggs/pypm packages would give a
place I can contribute time as my skills grow and confidently donate
money knowing I am assisting the development of community tools and
packages we all can use.

So just do it.

Yes you can answer questions, but have you really? Your answer seems
to be things are open source so who cares about community.

Many projects accept donations via PayPal. Sourceforge supports this.

Of course any fool can throw his/her money away thats no challenge why
even use Paypal, I could have fun and by 10 bottles of vino and hand
them out to recovering alcoholics.

Don't answer things just for the sake of it, if you have nothing
producive to say about furthering python and its community then say
that.

 

[flebber]

So?  That isn't uncommon at all;  to Open Source when you've moved on.

There is a plethora of Python IDE's [personally I use Monodevelop, which
supports Python, and is fast and stable].

Sometimes we can contribute with money and sometimes with time, if I
was to contribute money to ensure that I and all new coming python
programmers could have a first class development environment to use
what would I donate to? At the moment no particular group seems
applicable.

Many projects accept donations via PayPal.  Sourceforge supports this..

Why not just check the repo and see the real answer for yourself?  It is
Open Source after all.
<https://github.com/aptana/Pydev/commits/master>

You could checkout the code of any Python IDE and hack on it.

So just do it.

Yes you can answer questions, but have you really? Your answer seems
to be things are open source so who cares about community.

Many projects accept donations via PayPal.  Sourceforge supports this..

Of course any fool can throw his/her money away thats no challenge why
even use Paypal, I could have fun and by 10 bottles of vino and hand
them out to recovering alcoholics.

Don't answer things just for the sake of it, if you have nothing
producive to say about furthering python and its community then say
that.

My apologise I didn't mean to be that aggressive.

 

[flebber]

Yes you can answer questions, but have you really? Your answer seems
to be things are open source so who cares about community.
Of course any fool can throw his/her money away thats no challenge why
even use Paypal, I could have fun and by 10 bottles of vino and hand
them out to recovering alcoholics.
Don't answer things just for the sake of it, if you have nothing
producive to say about furthering python and its community then say
that.

I provided two concrete points, thank you:

(1) Is a project actively developed?  Look at the repo. That is the
answer to the question [this isn't necessarily obvious to those new to
Open Source].
(1.1.) "Is PyDev a potential unifying force amoung IDEs?"  Which is the
implied question - that is up to the OP and others who do/do-not
contribute to it.
(2) How can I donate cash? There is a fairly standard mechanism for
that.

Otherwise I think the OP's thoughts on "community" and how Open Source
works are somewhat flawed.  "Community" is a manifestation of people
*doing* things; it does *not* arise out of people being concerned about
things [since "doing" is quite apparently not a natural result of
"concern". Concern is like watching TV.  Doing is getting out of the
chair.]

Fair point.

You have mistaken somewhat what I intended, partly my fault due to the
verbosity. I wanted gaugue feedback on others perception of the
current status quo. I am happy personally currently, currently being
the main word.

"Community" is a manifestation of people

*doing* things; it does *not* arise out of people being concerned about
things

But concern is derived from interaction and observation and like fear
and joy tells us we need to take an action. If someone chooses to sir
idly by good for them I haven't the time or inclination personally.

Tony Robbins "Acheiving a goal is simple, decide what your goal is,
set out towards it and consistently review whether you are getting
closer or further from your goal and take action immediately."

From a language perspective going to python 3 this definitely seems to
be occurring well and strongly lead.

Sometimes the fault in open source is the lack of a crystalized and
shared goal and proper infrastructure.....Gentoo as an example. Could
get to they were going because they didn't share the same vision of
what it was.

I meant no attack by reviewing, just a somewhat newbies observations
of python.

 

[flebber]

I provided two concrete points, thank you:

(1) Is a project actively developed?  Look at the repo. That is the
answer to the question [this isn't necessarily obvious to those new to
Open Source].
(1.1.) "Is PyDev a potential unifying force amoung IDEs?"  Which is the
implied question - that is up to the OP and others who do/do-not
contribute to it.
(2) How can I donate cash? There is a fairly standard mechanism for
that.

Otherwise I think the OP's thoughts on "community" and how Open Source
works are somewhat flawed.  "Community" is a manifestation of people
*doing* things; it does *not* arise out of people being concerned about
things [since "doing" is quite apparently not a natural result of
"concern". Concern is like watching TV.  Doing is getting out of the
chair.]

Fair point.

You have mistaken somewhat what I intended, partly my fault due to the
verbosity. I wanted gaugue feedback on others perception of the
current status quo. I am happy personally currently, currently being
the main word.

"Community" is a manifestation of people

*doing* things; it does *not* arise out of people being concerned about
things

But concern is derived from interaction and observation and like fear
and joy tells us we need to take an action. If someone chooses to sir
idly by good for them I haven't the time or inclination personally.

Tony Robbins "Acheiving a goal is simple, decide what your goal is,
set out towards it and consistently review whether you are getting
closer or further from your goal and take action immediately."

From a language perspective going to python 3 this definitely seems to
be occurring well and strongly lead.

Sometimes the fault in open source is the lack of a crystalized and
shared goal and proper infrastructure.....Gentoo as an example. Could
get to they were going because they didn't share the same vision of
what it was.

I meant no attack by reviewing, just a somewhat newbies observations
of python.

Edit Gentoo couldn't get to where they were going because of lack of
vision and a shared goal.

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

Tony Robbins "Acheiving a goal is simple, decide what your goal is, set
out towards it and consistently review whether you are getting closer or
further from your goal and take action immediately."

Writing bug-free code is simple: decide what you want your code to do,
write code to do it, and consistently review whether you are getting more
or fewer bugs, and take action immediately.

 

[Fabio Zadrozny]

My question relates to community contribution. My concern arose when

recently installing the pydev.org extensions in Eclipse. Now as far as
my understanding goes the licensing on both is open source GPL.
However Pydev became open source as part of aptana's acquistion, and
for the moment pydev can be installed as part of the Aptana studio 2/3
releases individually as a plugin, but moving on if you vist the
aptana site there is sweet little about python on their site, their
site is dominated by Radrails.

Just a little fix there, Pydev is open source EPL (not GPL).

Also, yes, there's little content about Pydev in the Aptana homepage,
but it points to the main Pydev homepage (http://pydev.org) which has
the proper content related to Python (and it's currently being
actively developed and also integrated in Aptana Studio 3, which is
where the current efforts are targeted within Aptana now). Sorry if
this causes the (wrong) perception that Pydev doesn't get as much
attention.

Can't help thinking they open sourced Pydev so they could bench it. So
I started thinking that the only consistent env each python person has
is idle as it ships in the install.

Sorry, but I don't follow your thoughts here... there are many
consistent environments for python development which are properly
supported (Pydev being only one of them as you can see at
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/81584/what-ide-to-use-for-python ).

Sometimes we can contribute with money and sometimes with time, if I
was to contribute money to ensure that I and all new coming python
programmers could have a first class development environment to use
what would I donate to? At the moment no particular group seems
applicable.

Is pydev actively being developed and for who? SPE is a great idea but
is Stan still developing? Pyscripter is good but not 64 capable. Plus
none of these projects seem community centric.

I'm the current Pydev maintainer (since 2005)... and while I cannot
state that I'll be in that role forever (forever is quite a long
time), I do think it's well maintained and there are occasional
patches from the community that uses it (although I still get to
review all that goes in).

Maybe its just my wish, maybe something already exists, but to my mind
why is there not a central python community ide or plugin setup like
pydev or using pydev(since currently it is very good - to me), which I
know or at least could confidently donate time or money to further
python.

This could apply to many python area's does python use easy_install or
pypm, well if you want camelot or zope (unless you have business
edition) its easy_install, but you wont find an ide with built in egg
or pypm support?

I think the issue is that only recently (if you compare with the
others) has easy_install became the de facto standard in python (so,
it'd be more an issue of interest adding such a feature to the ide).

Why every Ruby ide has gems manager, and for that
fact look at netbeans, the ide is good but support for python is
mentioned on a far flung community page where some developers are
trying to maintain good python support. PS they seem to be doing a
good job, but a review of the mailing list archives shows little
activity.

One could say that activestate puts in good support but then they do
not provide an ide within the means of the average part time person
retailing its main edition at over $300, Pycharm a good ide at $99 but
then where is my money going.

I think a community plugin architecture which contained components
like pydev, pyscripter, eclipse and eggs/pypm packages would give a
place I can contribute time as my skills grow and confidently donate
money knowing I am assisting the development of community tools and
packages we all can use. No need to reinvent the wheel most things
already exist, for example apt-get & rpm style package management time
tested and could be easily used to manage python eggs for example.
Anyway I have had my 2 cents, if someone is contributing more than I
know, and this wasn't intended to dimnish anyone's effort, just
wanting to look to growing and fostering a stronger python community.

Well, I can only comment from the Pydev side here, but do you think
it'd be worth reinventing all that's already done in it just for
having it in Python? When I started contributing to Pydev back in 2004
I didn't go that way because Eclipse itself has a huge community
that's already in place and is properly maintained, which takes a lot
of effort, so, I'm not sure it'd be worth reproducing all that just to
have it 100% Python code -- I say 100% because Pydev does have a
number of things that are in Python, such as the debugger and Jython
for the scripting engine, although the major portion is really in
java.

Another important aspect is that it's much better if you can get an
experience that can later be replicated to other languages (which
Eclipse provides).

Cheers,

Fabio

 

[flebber]

Just a little fix there, Pydev is open source EPL (not GPL).

Also, yes, there's little content about Pydev in the Aptana homepage,
but it points to the main Pydev homepage (http://pydev.org) which has
the proper content related to Python (and it's currently being
actively developed and also integrated in Aptana Studio 3, which is
where the current efforts are targeted within Aptana now). Sorry if
this causes the (wrong) perception that Pydev doesn't get as much
attention.


Sorry, but I don't follow your thoughts here... there are many
consistent environments for python development which are properly
supported (Pydev being only one of them as you can see athttp://stackoverflow.com/questions/81584/what-ide-to-use-for-python).



I'm the current Pydev maintainer (since 2005)... and while I cannot
state that I'll be in that role forever (forever is quite a long
time), I do think it's well maintained and there are occasional
patches from the community that uses it (although I still get to
review all that goes in).



I think the issue is that only recently (if you compare with the
others) has easy_install became the de facto standard in python (so,
it'd be more an issue of interest adding such a feature to the ide).





Well, I can only comment from the Pydev side here, but do you think
it'd be worth reinventing all that's already done in it just for
having it in Python? When I started contributing to Pydev back in 2004
I didn't go that way because Eclipse itself has a huge community
that's already in place and is properly maintained, which takes a lot
of effort, so, I'm not sure it'd be worth reproducing all that just to
have it 100% Python code -- I say 100% because Pydev does have a
number of things that are in Python, such as the debugger and Jython
for the scripting engine, although the major portion is really in
java.

Another important aspect is that it's much better if you can get an
experience that can later be replicated to other languages (which
Eclipse provides).

Cheers,

Fabio

Fabio right off the bat let me thank you for your work on Pydev, I use
eclipse and the Pydev plugin and enjoy it very much.

My question and statement come to think of it should have been, is the
python community framework the most efficient it could be? If not what
framework would reduce duplication, value contributor effort and allow
rapid development and utilisation of python projects Zope/Django/
Pyjamas/SQLAlchemy...etc. Would a new framework being clearer allow
more investment from both commercial and community sources(time
resources & financial resources) and ensure python has the ability to
stay current.

Well, I can only comment from the Pydev side here, but do you think
it'd be worth reinventing all that's already done in it just for
having it in Python?

No, not at all worth the effort. My main post could have clearer but I
became somewhat passionate & less clear.

Main points were supposed to reflect
1. Both Netbeans, Aptana and Activestate represent commercial
companies.
- netbeans and Aptana by perception don't seem to have
python as their main focus
- Activestate has python at pride of place but both ide and
package mgt are at cost and not cheap. Even a free package such as
camelot, sqlalchemy require you to pay eg pypm camelot - will give
you a message "you need business edition python to access this
program"


2. I highly valuable contributors like yourself and had concern that
via unecessary duplication could reduce the potential impact and gains
that could be had.
For example Eclipse and Netbeans are both java ide's that feature
mulit syntax programming environments.
So is it potentially necessary for both sets of developers
to work separately, is it the most productive efficient framework.

In my head, and thats the only place this may exist, if for example
the pydev plugins where the central community python plugin for syntax
features, debugging etc then the commuity could re-use these.
This would mean to me that if I want to build an ide with its main
focus as Zope/Grok for example(could be anything Pyjamas etc) I
wouldn't have to re-write code I could build a base ide and plugin the
pydev syntax features to give me full python support and then focus on
the part of the implementation I want to develop. Reducing my
duplication and increasing productivity
And over and over this could be done an ide for python desktop apps,
plugin, plugin develop new code for Pyside etc.

Whether these apps are 100% python is not the main focus.