Python surpasses Perl in TIOBE index

Discussion in 'Python' started by marcpenninga@gmail.com, Dec 4, 2007.

  1. Guest

    This is *not* an attempt to start yet another Python-versus-
    AnyOtherProgrammingLanguage flame war, but I thought people might be
    interested in this:

    http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm

    Marc
    , Dec 4, 2007
    #1
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  2. George Sakkis, Dec 4, 2007
    #2
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  3. Duncan Booth Guest

    George Sakkis <> wrote:

    > Even more amazing is the rate C++ is losing ground:
    > http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/C__.html


    Given that the ratings are relative it may simply indicate that C++ is
    standing still while the others run ahead.
    Duncan Booth, Dec 4, 2007
    #3
  4. Paul Rudin Guest

    George Sakkis <> writes:


    > Even more amazing is the rate C++ is losing ground:
    > http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/C__.html


    I don't really find surprising that low level languages lose ground at
    the expense of higher level ones. The developer-time/run-time
    trade-off tends to move in favour of higher level languages as
    hardware gets faster and cheaper.
    Paul Rudin, Dec 4, 2007
    #4
  5. On Dec 4, 11:07 am, Paul Rudin <> wrote:
    > George Sakkis <> writes:
    > > Even more amazing is the rate C++ is losing ground:
    > >http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/C__.html

    >
    > I don't really find surprising that low level languages lose ground at
    > the expense of higher level ones. The developer-time/run-time
    > trade-off tends to move in favour of higher level languages as
    > hardware gets faster and cheaper.


    Well we Python folks are spoiled but for most people C++ counts as a
    high level language (hell, some consider even C high level). I'd be
    more interested though how well do these numbers correlate with actual
    penetration (new projects, job openings, etc.)

    George
    George Sakkis, Dec 4, 2007
    #5
  6. Paul Rudin Guest

    George Sakkis <> writes:

    > On Dec 4, 11:07 am, Paul Rudin <> wrote:
    >> George Sakkis <> writes:
    >> > Even more amazing is the rate C++ is losing ground:
    >> >http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/C__.html

    >>
    >> I don't really find surprising that low level languages lose ground at
    >> the expense of higher level ones. The developer-time/run-time
    >> trade-off tends to move in favour of higher level languages as
    >> hardware gets faster and cheaper.

    >
    > Well we Python folks are spoiled but for most people C++ counts as a
    > high level language (hell, some consider even C high level).



    I guess it's all relative.

    http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?HighLevelLanguage includes the words:

    The term "High Level Language" was originally used to distinguish
    things like FortranLanguage from things like assembly
    language. Therefore, originally "high level language" very much
    included Fortran, Basic, COBOL, Snobol, PL/I, and a little later, C.

    Observing that such languages are not very high level compared with
    e.g. Prolog, YACC, Lex, ML, Haskell, etc, some people started
    calling the older high level languages "low level languages", or
    qualifying them as "higher level languages", etc.


    > more interested though how well do these numbers correlate with actual
    > penetration (new projects, job openings, etc.)


    I dunno, but I'm pretty sure that the number of Python jobs has
    increased.

    I don't think it's just about the "level" of the language tho',
    e.g. in some ways the language (Common) Lisp is at least as "high
    level" as the language Python and has certainly been around longer.
    But the former lacks the same range of standard libraries for actually
    getting stuff done and lacks a de facto standard implementation. (I'm
    not trying to start a Lisp vs. Python flame war here.)
    Paul Rudin, Dec 4, 2007
    #6
  7. Lou Pecora Guest

    Lou Pecora, Dec 4, 2007
    #7
  8. Lou Pecora Guest

    In article
    <>,
    George Sakkis <> wrote:

    > On Dec 4, 10:08 am, wrote:
    > > This is *not* an attempt to start yet another Python-versus-
    > > AnyOtherProgrammingLanguage flame war, but I thought people might be
    > > interested in this:
    > >
    > > http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
    > >
    > > Marc

    >
    > Cool (assuming these numbers actually mean something), but this has
    > more to do with Perl's fall than Python's increase:
    > http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Perl.html.
    > Even more amazing is the rate C++ is losing ground:
    > http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/C__.html
    >
    > George


    How about Visual Basic going up?

    --
    -- Lou Pecora
    Lou Pecora, Dec 4, 2007
    #8
  9. greg Guest

    George Sakkis wrote:
    > Well we Python folks are spoiled but for most people C++ counts as a
    > high level language


    Well, some parts are high-level, but it's full of very
    deep elevator shafts for you to accidentally fall
    into...

    A truly high-level language also *doesn't* have low
    level parts (or at least doesn't expose them unless
    you explicitly ask it to).

    --
    Greg
    greg, Dec 5, 2007
    #9
  10. > > Well we Python folks are spoiled but for most people C++ counts as a
    > > high level language

    >
    > Well, some parts are high-level, but it's full of very
    > deep elevator shafts for you to accidentally fall
    > into...
    >
    > A truly high-level language also *doesn't* have low
    > level parts (or at least doesn't expose them unless
    > you explicitly ask it to).



    Anyone has an idea what the huge peak around the middle of 2004 can be
    attributed to?

    http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Python.html
    Daniel Fetchinson, Dec 5, 2007
    #10
  11. On 12/4/07, Daniel Fetchinson <> wrote:
    > > > Well we Python folks are spoiled but for most people C++ counts as a
    > > > high level language

    > >
    > > Well, some parts are high-level, but it's full of very
    > > deep elevator shafts for you to accidentally fall
    > > into...
    > >
    > > A truly high-level language also *doesn't* have low
    > > level parts (or at least doesn't expose them unless
    > > you explicitly ask it to).

    >
    > Anyone has an idea what the huge peak around the middle of 2004 can be
    > attributed to?
    >
    > http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Python.html


    It seems the huge peak has to do something with the huge dip in Java
    at around the same period:

    http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Java.html

    Chicken-or-egg problem I guess :)
    Daniel Fetchinson, Dec 5, 2007
    #11
  12. Roy Smith Guest

    In article <>,
    "Daniel Fetchinson" <> wrote:

    > Anyone has an idea what the huge peak around the middle of 2004 can be
    > attributed to?


    There's a Q/A section at the bottom of
    http://www.tiobe.com/index.htm?tiobe_index which covers this:

    Q: What happened to Java in April 2004? Did you change your methodology?
    A: No, we did not change our methodology at that time. Google changed its
    methodology. They performed a general sweep action to get rid of all kinds
    of web sites that had been pushed up. As a consequence, there was a huge
    drop for languages such as Java and C++. In order to minimize such
    fluctuations in the future, we added two more search engines (MSN and
    Yahoo) a few months after this incident.
    Roy Smith, Dec 5, 2007
    #12
  13. Carl Banks Guest

    Carl Banks, Dec 5, 2007
    #13
  14. Deltantor Guest

    wrote:
    > This is *not* an attempt to start yet another Python-versus-
    > AnyOtherProgrammingLanguage flame war, but I thought people might be
    > interested in this:
    >
    > http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
    >
    > Marc

    Real programmers use brainfuck.

    Kidding of course, I believe someone should use the language they like
    and that fits the purpose of the program they are writing. All
    programming languages have their ups and downs. Brainfuck is just all
    downs :(
    Deltantor, Dec 5, 2007
    #14
  15. BlueBird Guest

    BlueBird, Dec 5, 2007
    #15
  16. On Dec 5, 7:34 am, BlueBird <> wrote:
    > On Dec 4, 4:08 pm, wrote:
    >
    > > This is *not* an attempt to start yet another Python-versus-
    > > AnyOtherProgrammingLanguage flame war, but I thought people might be
    > > interested in this:

    >
    > >http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm

    >
    > > Marc

    >
    > I find Ohloh comparisons also useful:http://www.ohloh.net/languages/compare?commit=Update&l0=python&l0_0=-...
    >
    > What it highlights is that the number of python programmer is growing
    > quicker than the number of perl programmers.


    Not necessarily; it shows that the count of monthly commits by open
    source developers is growing, which might be mostly thanks to
    relatively few dedicated committers rather than an overall increase in
    the population.

    Another interesing point is that the gap with PHP is narrowing too:
    http://www.ohloh.net/languages/comp...rl&l1=php&l2=python&l3=-1&l4=-1&commit=Update

    George
    George Sakkis, Dec 5, 2007
    #16
  17. Carl Banks Guest

    On Dec 5, 4:18 pm, George Sakkis <> wrote:
    > On Dec 5, 7:34 am, BlueBird <> wrote:
    >
    > > On Dec 4, 4:08 pm, wrote:

    >
    > > > This is *not* an attempt to start yet another Python-versus-
    > > > AnyOtherProgrammingLanguage flame war, but I thought people might be
    > > > interested in this:

    >
    > > >http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm

    >
    > > > Marc

    >
    > > I find Ohloh comparisons also useful:http://www.ohloh.net/languages/compare?commit=Update&l0=python&l0_0=-...

    >
    > > What it highlights is that the number of python programmer is growing
    > > quicker than the number of perl programmers.

    >
    > Not necessarily; it shows that the count of monthly commits by open
    > source developers is growing, which might be mostly thanks to
    > relatively few dedicated committers rather than an overall increase in
    > the population.


    I think it's probably more to do with the opinion of version control
    is held in by the Python and Perl communities.

    Less pejoratively, Perl's main strength is simple throwaway or single-
    task scripts that (paraphrasing the perl man page) require a bit more
    complexity than sed or awk; these sorts of things don't really need
    version control. Python is more geared to complex applications, so
    version control comes into play a lot more. It's not a surprise that
    Python would have more commits then, even back as far as 2000 when
    Perl was the shizzle.


    Carl Banks
    Carl Banks, Dec 6, 2007
    #17
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