Python web frameworks

Discussion in 'Python' started by joe jacob, Nov 20, 2007.

  1. joe jacob

    joe jacob Guest

    There are a lot of web frameworks for python like django, mod_python,
    spyce, turbo gears, Zope, Cherrypy etc. Which one is the best in terms
    of performance and ease of study.
     
    joe jacob, Nov 20, 2007
    #1
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  2. joe jacob

    Jeff Guest

    The only one that I have used extensively is Django, which is very
    easy to use and quite powerful in the arena for which it was created.
    It has a powerful admin interface that automatically generates data
    entry forms for content producers and a decent template system. It
    has some definite drawbacks, though. The admin interface is difficult
    to customize because it was not meant to be customized too much
    (Django was written in a newspaper environment, where data needs to go
    online quickly and be easily customizable for the next story or next
    year's use). It also lacks ajax support.

    I understand that Zope has a pretty high learning curve and is
    currently in various stages of rewrite.

    I don't know much about the others. Turbo gears uses Mochikit, which
    hasn't had a new stable release in some time. I prefer jQuery myself.
     
    Jeff, Nov 20, 2007
    #2
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  3. joe jacob

    Joe Riopel Guest

    On Nov 20, 2007 7:19 AM, joe jacob <> wrote:
    > There are a lot of web frameworks for python like django, mod_python,
    > spyce, turbo gears, Zope, Cherrypy etc. Which one is the best in terms
    > of performance and ease of study.


    I wouldn't classify mod_python as a web framework: "Mod_python is an
    Apache module that embeds the Python interpreter within the server.".

    I haven't used all of the frameworks that you have mentioned, but I
    really like what I have seen from Pylons so far.
     
    Joe Riopel, Nov 20, 2007
    #3
  4. On Nov 20, 6:19 am, joe jacob <> wrote:
    > There are a lot of web frameworks for python like django, mod_python,
    > spyce, turbo gears, Zope, Cherrypy etc. Which one is the best in terms
    > of performance and ease of study.


    I'm looking at django mainly. I hope the veterans jump in with the
    latest on these. The django book (written by the developers) comes out
    12/7. Django comes with its own little server so that you don't have
    to set up Apache on your desktop to play with it. Configuration is
    tricky at first, but what fun to code a web app in Python instead of
    looking up php commands all day.

    Drafts of the django book are available at the site. I would follow
    the examples in the book instead of the tutorial. The tutorial works,
    but I seemed to learn more using the examples in the book.

    As for performance, see the page on caching. I barely understand the
    server dynamics but you can find pages and sites comparing dango
    performance to ruby on rails.

    http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/cache/

    rd
     
    BartlebyScrivener, Nov 20, 2007
    #4
  5. joe jacob

    Joe Riopel Guest

    On Nov 20, 2007 8:46 AM, BartlebyScrivener <> wrote:
    > Django comes with its own little server so that you don't have
    > to set up Apache on your desktop to play with it.


    Pylons too, it's good for development but using the bundled web server
    is not recommended for production.
     
    Joe Riopel, Nov 20, 2007
    #5
  6. joe jacob

    Bernard Guest

    On 20 nov, 07:19, joe jacob <> wrote:
    > There are a lot of web frameworks for python like django, mod_python,
    > spyce, turbo gears, Zope, Cherrypy etc. Which one is the best in terms
    > of performance and ease of study.


    I'm making web apps with CherryPy at work and it's quite good.
    the official docs are a bit messy though but they left useful comments
    in their code.
     
    Bernard, Nov 20, 2007
    #6
  7. > 12/7. Django comes with its own little server so that you don't have
    > to set up Apache on your desktop to play with it.


    I was rather shocked to learn that django only has this tiny server and does
    not come with a stand-alone server and is supposed to run as
    mod_python/cgi-driven app through apache.

    Which reaps you of all the benefits of standalone servers like connection
    pooling & caching data and so forth. Including sessions - I presume they
    always go into the db/filesystem as PHP does.

    Diez
     
    Diez B. Roggisch, Nov 20, 2007
    #7
  8. Jeff:
    > I don't know much about the others. Turbo gears uses Mochikit, which
    > hasn't had a new stable release in some time. I prefer jQuery myself.


    You can use jQuery with TurboGears if you develop custom widgets (I do so).
    No problem here.

    --
    Thomas Wittek
    Web: http://gedankenkonstrukt.de/
    Jabber: -pobox.net
    GPG: 0xF534E231
     
    Thomas Wittek, Nov 20, 2007
    #8
  9. joe jacob

    Paul Boddie Guest

    On 20 Nov, 15:42, "Diez B. Roggisch" <> wrote:
    > > 12/7. Django comes with its own little server so that you don't have
    > > to set up Apache on your desktop to play with it.

    >
    > I was rather shocked to learn that django only has this tiny server and does
    > not come with a stand-alone server and is supposed to run as
    > mod_python/cgi-driven app through apache.


    The standalone server aspect of a large number of Python Web
    frameworks typically involves BaseHTTPServer from the standard
    library, as far as I've seen, excluding things like Twisted which
    aspire to offer production quality server solutions themselves. This
    was common back in the old days of Webware, in contrast to Zope which
    used Medusa at the time, if I remember correctly.

    > Which reaps you of all the benefits of standalone servers like connection
    > pooling & caching data and so forth. Including sessions - I presume they
    > always go into the db/filesystem as PHP does.


    I guess it's a compromise between deployment complexity and benefits
    in the above areas, although mod_python should offer some relief in
    some of the above areas. What people didn't like about Webware so much
    was that run in the recommended way - with a standalone server which
    communicated with Web server processes - people had to have separate
    long-running processes, which various hosting providers didn't like.

    What's most important is that you should be able to switch out one
    server technology with another when you reach the limits of the
    original, all without having to rewrite your application or do some
    major re-plumbing. It does surprise me that mod_python is recommended
    for use with Django in the various quick start guides I've read, but I
    suppose that lets the developer avoid the issue of migrating up from a
    simple server to something more scalable. Not that this should be a
    problem, of course.

    Paul
     
    Paul Boddie, Nov 20, 2007
    #9
  10. joe jacob a écrit :
    > There are a lot of web frameworks for python like django, mod_python,
    > spyce, turbo gears, Zope, Cherrypy etc. Which one is the best in terms
    > of performance and ease of study.


    As far as I'm concerned, the winners are Django and Pylons (my own
    preference going to Pylons).
     
    Bruno Desthuilliers, Nov 20, 2007
    #10
  11. On Nov 20, 9:42 am, "Diez B. Roggisch" <> wrote:
    > > 12/7. Django comes with its own little server so that you don't have
    > > to set up Apache on your desktop to play with it.

    >
    > I was rather shocked to learn that django only has this tiny server and does
    > not come with a stand-alone server


    Alas it is even worse than that, the development server is single
    threaded and that can be a big problem when developing sites that make
    multiple simultaneous requests at the same time (say if one of those
    requests stalls for some reason). It is trivial to add multi threading
    via a mixin (takes about two lines of code) but it does not seem to be
    a priority to do so.

    For large traffic though, Django is better than just about anything
    other framework because it is built as multiprocess framework through
    mod_python (rather than threaded). So there is no global interpreter
    lock, thread switching etc. Django was built based in a real life
    heavy duty use scenario, and over the years that really helped with
    ironing out the problems.

    i.
     
    Istvan Albert, Nov 20, 2007
    #11
  12. joe jacob

    Frank Miles Guest

    On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, joe jacob wrote:

    > There are a lot of web frameworks for python like django, mod_python,
    > spyce, turbo gears, Zope, Cherrypy etc. Which one is the best in terms
    > of performance and ease of study.


    Personally I found zope/plone to be very much its own enormously complex world.
    Performance was quite sluggish on a less-than-state-of-the-art computer. Part
    of my problem was that my particular job didn't really fit with the particular
    viewpoint (way of handling data) implicit in these programs. This might not
    be the case for you - you'll have to evaluate that for yourself.

    In the end I went with Django (hosted by mod_python/apache). Django thankfully
    doesn't require that you use their "admin" as the access point for normal users,
    though that means it will take more time and thought. It's still comparatively
    flexible and straightforward in comparison to zope/plone. There are a few things
    that I am not 100% satisifed with, but overall I have found django to be very
    adaptible to my particular needs. All this despite the fact that this is a
    pretty minor part of my work - I am pretty much a newby at developing for the web.

    BTW the book - while still apparently not fully completed - is available for
    free on the 'net.

    -f
     
    Frank Miles, Nov 20, 2007
    #12
  13. joe jacob

    Jeff Guest

    On Nov 20, 10:00 am, Thomas Wittek <> wrote:
    > Jeff:
    >
    > > I don't know much about the others. Turbo gears uses Mochikit, which
    > > hasn't had a new stable release in some time. I prefer jQuery myself.

    >
    > You can use jQuery with TurboGears if you develop custom widgets (I do so).
    > No problem here.


    That's good to know, but I was intending to mean that TurboGears has
    built-in support for Mochikit, while Django has no built-in Javascript
    or Ajax support.
     
    Jeff, Nov 20, 2007
    #13
  14. On Nov 21, 2:33 am, Istvan Albert <> wrote:
    > On Nov 20, 9:42 am, "Diez B. Roggisch" <> wrote:
    >
    > > > 12/7. Django comes with its own little server so that you don't have
    > > > to set up Apache on your desktop to play with it.

    >
    > > I was rather shocked to learn that django only has this tiny server and does
    > > not come with a stand-alone server

    >
    > Alas it is even worse than that, the development server is single
    > threaded and that can be a big problem when developing sites that make
    > multiple simultaneous requests at the same time (say if one of those
    > requests stalls for some reason). It is trivial to add multi threading
    > via a mixin (takes about two lines of code) but it does not seem to be
    > a priority to do so.
    >
    > For large traffic though, Django is better than just about anything
    > other framework because it is built as multiprocess framework through
    > mod_python (rather than threaded).


    This only holds if actually hosted on Apache. As Django these days
    supports WSGI interface there is nothing to stop it being run with
    other hosting solutions that support WSGI. So, you could host it under
    paster or CherryPy WSGI servers. You could even run it under CGI if
    you were really desperate using a CGI-WSGI adapter. So, it isn't
    strictly correct to say it is as a multiprocess framework specifically
    for mod_python, although the developers will admit in the first
    instance that they didn't design the internals with multithreading in
    mind. That said, there aren't believed to be any multithreading issues
    in Django itself at this time.

    > So there is no global interpreter
    > lock, thread switching etc.


    Use of worker MPM (multiprocess+multithreaded) in Apache in place of
    prefork MPM (multiprocess+single threaded) is also still more than
    acceptable a solution to hosting Python web applications using either
    mod_python or mod_wsgi.

    People keep pushing this barrow about the GIL and multithreading being
    a huge problem, when in the context of Apache it is isn't, at least
    not to the degree people make out. The reason for this is that when
    using worker MPM it sill acts as a multi process web server even
    though each process is also multithreaded. Within those worker MPM
    child processes there is also a lot going on that doesn't involve
    Python code nor the GIL, for example initial request process and
    serving up of static files etc.

    Result is that the Python GIL is no impediment when using Apache on
    UNIX to making good use of multiple processors or cores, even when
    Apache worker MPM is used.

    For where I have talked about this before see:
    http://blog.dscpl.com.au/2007/09/parallel-python-discussion-and-modwsgi.html

    Graham
     
    Graham Dumpleton, Nov 20, 2007
    #14
  15. On Nov 20, 3:39 pm, Graham Dumpleton <>
    wrote:

    > This only holds if actually hosted on Apache. As Django these days
    > supports WSGI interface there is nothing to stop it being run with
    > other hosting solutions that support WSGI. So, you could host it under
    > paster or CherryPy WSGI servers. You could even run it under CGI if
    > you were really desperate using a CGI-WSGI adapter. So, it isn't
    > strictly correct to say it is as a multiprocess framework specifically
    > for mod_python, although the developers will admit in the first
    > instance that they didn't design the internals with multithreading in
    > mind. That said, there aren't believed to be any multithreading issues
    > in Django itself at this time.
    >
    > People keep pushing this barrow about the GIL and multithreading being
    > a huge problem, when in the context of Apache it is isn't, at least
    > not to the degree people make out. The reason for this is that when
    > using worker MPM it sill acts as a multi process web server even
    > though each process is also multithreaded. Within those worker MPM
    > child processes there is also a lot going on that doesn't involve
    > Python code nor the GIL, for example initial request process and
    > serving up of static files etc.
    >
    > Result is that the Python GIL is no impediment when using Apache on
    > UNIX to making good use of multiple processors or cores, even when
    > Apache worker MPM is used.
    >


    I understand about a fifth of this exchange but I'm glad it's here so
    I can follow links and search on the terminology. I couldn't tell from
    earlier posts if mod_python was good or bad.

    The Django book says: "Apache with mod_python currently is the most
    robust setup for using Django on a production server."

    Is that true? And if you start small with, say, an online arts
    magazine for a metropolitan area, then can we easily scale if we
    become popular? I'm picking Django because it sounds like they did
    just this with a newspaper site in Lawrence, Kansas.

    We are thinking of starting with Webfaction and just seeing what
    happens. All I know is that I like Python and Django and would rather
    stick with open source.

    Thanks for the info.

    rd
     
    BartlebyScrivener, Nov 21, 2007
    #15
  16. On Nov 21, 1:37 pm, BartlebyScrivener <> wrote:
    > On Nov 20, 3:39 pm, Graham Dumpleton <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > > This only holds if actually hosted on Apache. As Django these days
    > > supports WSGI interface there is nothing to stop it being run with
    > > other hosting solutions that support WSGI. So, you could host it under
    > > paster or CherryPy WSGI servers. You could even run it under CGI if
    > > you were really desperate using a CGI-WSGI adapter. So, it isn't
    > > strictly correct to say it is as a multiprocess framework specifically
    > > for mod_python, although the developers will admit in the first
    > > instance that they didn't design the internals with multithreading in
    > > mind. That said, there aren't believed to be any multithreading issues
    > > in Django itself at this time.

    >
    > > People keep pushing this barrow about the GIL and multithreading being
    > > a huge problem, when in the context of Apache it is isn't, at least
    > > not to the degree people make out. The reason for this is that when
    > > using worker MPM it sill acts as a multi process web server even
    > > though each process is also multithreaded. Within those worker MPM
    > > child processes there is also a lot going on that doesn't involve
    > > Python code nor the GIL, for example initial request process and
    > > serving up of static files etc.

    >
    > > Result is that the Python GIL is no impediment when using Apache on
    > > UNIX to making good use of multiple processors or cores, even when
    > > Apache worker MPM is used.

    >
    > I understand about a fifth of this exchange but I'm glad it's here so
    > I can follow links and search on the terminology. I couldn't tell from
    > earlier posts if mod_python was good or bad.


    Version 3.3 of mod_python fixed up a lot of issues that existed with
    older versions of mod_python. There are still a lot of issues in
    mod_python unfixed.

    https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/MODPYTHON

    In the main people will not run into these issues, of if they do, the
    incidence of them causing a direct or significant impact is low, or
    with people just tolerating the problems.

    If you want to be where hosting with Apache is heading, then look at
    mod_wsgi (http://www.modwsgi.org) instead. People will say I am biased
    because I wrote it, but I was also the main person who did the more
    recent work on fixing up mod_python and am more aware than others of
    what problems still exist in mod_python.

    To be frank, unless some white knight comes along and dives into
    mod_python and fixes up the remaining issues, then you probably will
    not see any significant future updates to mod_python and it will just
    stagnate. I certainly will not be devoting much time to mod_python any
    more.

    Part of the problem with mod_python is that the code base has grown
    over time and is long overdue for a complete rethink, which is in part
    what mod_wsgi was about, ie., making the code and configuration a lot
    simpler and safer for use in web hosting environments.

    Thus mod_wsgi takes aspects of what mod_python does, combining it with
    aspects of how FASTCGI solutions work. This gives the option of
    embedding a Python application in Apache for maximum speed, or using
    daemon processes as means of being able to better separate multiple
    applications.

    Most importantly, mod_wsgi supports WSGI directly, making it
    reasonably trivial to run any Python web framework or application
    which supports the WSGI standard.

    > The Django book says: "Apache with mod_python currently is the most
    > robust setup for using Django on a production server."
    >
    > Is that true?


    I would say that that is now debatable. Overall mod_wsgi is probably a
    better package in terms of what it has to offer. Only thing against
    mod_wsgi at this point is peoples willingness to accept something that
    is new in conjunction with Linux distributions and web hosting
    companies being slow to adopt new packages.

    Various people are quite happily using mod_wsgi. Users of mod_wsgi
    range from people trying to run it in memory constrained VPS systems,
    right up to major sites serving up to between 3-4 million hits a day.

    There have been a few odd things come up since the initial release
    which have since been fixed, but the core is showing itself to be very
    solid.

    Graham
     
    Graham Dumpleton, Nov 21, 2007
    #16
  17. joe jacob

    joe jacob Guest

    On Nov 21, 10:15 am, Graham Dumpleton <>
    wrote:
    > On Nov 21, 1:37 pm, BartlebyScrivener <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Nov 20, 3:39 pm, Graham Dumpleton <>
    > > wrote:

    >
    > > > This only holds if actually hosted on Apache. As Django these days
    > > > supports WSGI interface there is nothing to stop it being run with
    > > > other hosting solutions that support WSGI. So, you could host it under
    > > > paster or CherryPy WSGI servers. You could even run it under CGI if
    > > > you were really desperate using a CGI-WSGI adapter. So, it isn't
    > > > strictly correct to say it is as a multiprocess framework specifically
    > > > for mod_python, although the developers will admit in the first
    > > > instance that they didn't design the internals with multithreading in
    > > > mind. That said, there aren't believed to be any multithreading issues
    > > > in Django itself at this time.

    >
    > > > People keep pushing this barrow about the GIL and multithreading being
    > > > a huge problem, when in the context of Apache it is isn't, at least
    > > > not to the degree people make out. The reason for this is that when
    > > > using worker MPM it sill acts as a multi process web server even
    > > > though each process is also multithreaded. Within those worker MPM
    > > > child processes there is also a lot going on that doesn't involve
    > > > Python code nor the GIL, for example initial request process and
    > > > serving up of static files etc.

    >
    > > > Result is that the Python GIL is no impediment when using Apache on
    > > > UNIX to making good use of multiple processors or cores, even when
    > > > Apache worker MPM is used.

    >
    > > I understand about a fifth of this exchange but I'm glad it's here so
    > > I can follow links and search on the terminology. I couldn't tell from
    > > earlier posts if mod_python was good or bad.

    >
    > Version 3.3 of mod_python fixed up a lot of issues that existed with
    > older versions of mod_python. There are still a lot of issues in
    > mod_python unfixed.
    >
    > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/MODPYTHON
    >
    > In the main people will not run into these issues, of if they do, the
    > incidence of them causing a direct or significant impact is low, or
    > with people just tolerating the problems.
    >
    > If you want to be where hosting with Apache is heading, then look at
    > mod_wsgi (http://www.modwsgi.org) instead. People will say I am biased
    > because I wrote it, but I was also the main person who did the more
    > recent work on fixing up mod_python and am more aware than others of
    > what problems still exist in mod_python.
    >
    > To be frank, unless some white knight comes along and dives into
    > mod_python and fixes up the remaining issues, then you probably will
    > not see any significant future updates to mod_python and it will just
    > stagnate. I certainly will not be devoting much time to mod_python any
    > more.
    >
    > Part of the problem with mod_python is that the code base has grown
    > over time and is long overdue for a complete rethink, which is in part
    > what mod_wsgi was about, ie., making the code and configuration a lot
    > simpler and safer for use in web hosting environments.
    >
    > Thus mod_wsgi takes aspects of what mod_python does, combining it with
    > aspects of how FASTCGI solutions work. This gives the option of
    > embedding a Python application in Apache for maximum speed, or using
    > daemon processes as means of being able to better separate multiple
    > applications.
    >
    > Most importantly, mod_wsgi supports WSGI directly, making it
    > reasonably trivial to run any Python web framework or application
    > which supports the WSGI standard.
    >
    > > The Django book says: "Apache with mod_python currently is the most
    > > robust setup for using Django on a production server."

    >
    > > Is that true?

    >
    > I would say that that is now debatable. Overall mod_wsgi is probably a
    > better package in terms of what it has to offer. Only thing against
    > mod_wsgi at this point is peoples willingness to accept something that
    > is new in conjunction with Linux distributions and web hosting
    > companies being slow to adopt new packages.
    >
    > Various people are quite happily using mod_wsgi. Users of mod_wsgi
    > range from people trying to run it in memory constrained VPS systems,
    > right up to major sites serving up to between 3-4 million hits a day.
    >
    > There have been a few odd things come up since the initial release
    > which have since been fixed, but the core is showing itself to be very
    > solid.
    >
    > Graham


    Thanks everyone for the response. From the posts I understand that
    Django and pylons are the best. By searching the net earlier I got the
    same information that Django is best among the frameworks so I
    downloaded it and I found it very difficult to configure. I referred
    the djangobook. Is pylons better in terms of performance and ease of
    study compared to Django.
     
    joe jacob, Nov 21, 2007
    #17
  18. joe jacob a écrit :
    (snip)
    > Thanks everyone for the response. From the posts I understand that
    > Django and pylons are the best. By searching the net earlier I got the
    > same information that Django is best among the frameworks so I
    > downloaded it and I found it very difficult to configure.


    ???

    It's been a couple of years since I last used Django, but I don't
    remember any specific complexity wrt/ configuration.
     
    Bruno Desthuilliers, Nov 21, 2007
    #18
  19. joe jacob

    Jeff Guest

    On Nov 21, 6:25 am, Bruno Desthuilliers <bruno.
    > wrote:
    > joe jacob a écrit :
    > (snip)
    >
    > > Thanks everyone for the response. From the posts I understand that
    > > Django and pylons are the best. By searching the net earlier I got the
    > > same information that Django is best among the frameworks so I
    > > downloaded it and I found it very difficult to configure.

    >
    > ???
    >
    > It's been a couple of years since I last used Django, but I don't
    > remember any specific complexity wrt/ configuration.


    The only difficulties I have had have been with serving static media.
    Specifically, in the differences in setup between the development
    environment and production, and setting it up so that I don't have to
    make any changes to the code in order to roll out upgrades to a
    product.

    My employer (a large local newspaper) has been using Django for about
    while now. We get a decent amount of traffic and it has scaled very
    nicely. The only area where there were any problems was with our
    MySQL server; abstracting your DB code with an ORM is not as efficient
    as doing your own custom SQL, at least in terms of performance (in
    terms of development time, it certainly outweighs the performance hit
    in most cases). However, we were running quite a few sites off of
    that database at the time, and that had a lot to do with it as well.
     
    Jeff, Nov 21, 2007
    #19
  20. joe jacob

    Joe Riopel Guest

    On Nov 21, 2007 5:42 AM, joe jacob <> wrote:
    > Thanks everyone for the response. From the posts I understand that
    > Django and pylons are the best. By searching the net earlier I got the
    > same information that Django is best among the frameworks so I
    > downloaded it and I found it very difficult to configure. I referred
    > the djangobook. Is pylons better in terms of performance and ease of
    > study compared to Django.


    I have only used Pylons for the simplest of applications (Not because
    I don't think it can handle complex applications, but because I am
    trying to learn the framework) and find it very easy to configure.
    That said, I think it's definitely worth your time to to either give
    Pylons a try, or give Django more time.

    This thread has been going for only a few days now, and I wouldn't
    expect you'd have very intimate knowledge with any framework.
     
    Joe Riopel, Nov 21, 2007
    #20
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