Python Web Programming - looking for examples of solid high-traffic sites

Discussion in 'Python' started by Victor Kryukov, May 16, 2007.

  1. Hello list,

    our team is going to rewrite our existing web-site, which has a lot of
    dynamic content and was quickly prototyped some time ago.

    Today, as we get better idea of what we need, we're going to re-write
    everything from scratch. Python is an obvious candidate for our team:
    everybody knows it, everybody likes it, it has *real* objects, nice
    clean syntax etc.

    Our main requirement for tools we're going to use is rock-solid
    stability. As one of our team-members puts it, "We want to use tools
    that are stable, has many developer-years and thousands of user-years
    behind them, and that we shouldn't worry about their _versions_." The
    main reason for that is that we want to debug our own bugs, but not
    the bugs in our tools.

    Our problem is - we yet have to find any example of high-traffic,
    scalable web-site written entirely in Python. We know that YouTube is
    a suspect, but we don't know what specific python web solution was
    used there.

    TurboGears, Django and Pylons are all nice, and provides rich features
    - probably too many for us - but, as far as we understand, they don't
    satisfy the stability requirement - Pylons and Django hasn't even
    reached 1.0 version yet. And their provide too thick layer - we want
    something 'closer to metal', probably similar to web.py -
    unfortunately, web.py doesn't satisfy the stability requirement
    either, or so it seems.

    So the question is: what is a solid way to serve dynamic web pages in
    python? Our initial though was something like python + mod_python +
    Apache, but we're told that mod_python is 'scary and doesn't work very
    well'.

    And although http://www.python.org/about/quotes/ lists many big names
    and wonderful examples, be want more details. E.g. our understanding
    is that Google uses python mostly for internal web-sites, and
    performance is far from perfect their. YouTube is an interesting
    example - anybody knows more details about that?

    Your suggestions and comments are highly welcome!

    Best Regards,
    Victor.
    Victor Kryukov, May 16, 2007
    #1
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  2. Victor Kryukov

    John Nagle Guest

    Re: Python Web Programming - looking for examples of solid high-trafficsites

    Victor Kryukov wrote:
    > Hello list,
    >
    > our team is going to rewrite our existing web-site, which has a lot of
    > dynamic content and was quickly prototyped some time ago.

    ....
    > Our main requirement for tools we're going to use is rock-solid
    > stability. As one of our team-members puts it, "We want to use tools
    > that are stable, has many developer-years and thousands of user-years
    > behind them, and that we shouldn't worry about their _versions_." The
    > main reason for that is that we want to debug our own bugs, but not
    > the bugs in our tools.


    You may not be happy with Python, then.

    Having spent the last several months implementing a reasonably complex
    web site in Python, I now have an understanding of the problems involved.
    Which are non-trivial.

    Some key web site components, like the SSL interface and the
    MySQL interface, are written in C and maintained by third parties,
    often by a single person. Getting the correct version for your
    platform and making it work can be difficult. Getting the right
    versions of MySQL, OpenSSL, and Python to all play together is
    non-trivial. Expect to have to build from source, debug the build
    process, look at source repositories, submit bug reports, fix
    library bugs yourself, and maintain a local set of library patches.

    Few hosting companies will have these modules available for you.
    It's not like Perl or PHP, where it works out of the box. WebFaction
    claims to support Python well, but few other hosting companies bother.
    Most Linux distributions ship with older versions of Python, and
    that's what most hosting companies will give you. Python 2.4
    is par for the course.

    High traffic sites are a problem. There are a number of
    "frameworks", all supported by different people and with different
    capabilities. See

    http://www.polimetrix.com/pycon/slides/

    for a discussion. I haven't tried most of them, so I won't
    say anything about that issue.

    > Our problem is - we yet have to find any example of high-traffic,
    > scalable web-site written entirely in Python. We know that YouTube is
    > a suspect, but we don't know what specific python web solution was
    > used there.


    Not that much of YouTube is really in Python. The video
    codecs aren't; they'd take forever if they were. And since Google
    took over, the old YouTube search engine (which was terrible) was
    replaced by Google's search technology.


    John Nagle
    John Nagle, May 17, 2007
    #2
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  3. On May 16, 6:04 pm, Victor Kryukov <> wrote:
    > Hello list,
    >
    > our team is going to rewrite our existing web-site, which has a lot of
    > dynamic content and was quickly prototyped some time ago.
    >
    > Today, as we get better idea of what we need, we're going to re-write
    > everything from scratch. Python is an obvious candidate for our team:
    > everybody knows it, everybody likes it, it has *real* objects, nice
    > clean syntax etc.
    >
    > Our main requirement for tools we're going to use is rock-solid
    > stability. As one of our team-members puts it, "We want to use tools
    > that are stable, has many developer-years and thousands of user-years
    > behind them, and that we shouldn't worry about their _versions_." The
    > main reason for that is that we want to debug our own bugs, but not
    > the bugs in our tools.
    >
    > Our problem is - we yet have to find any example of high-traffic,
    > scalable web-site written entirely in Python. We know that YouTube is
    > a suspect, but we don't know what specific python web solution was
    > used there.
    >
    > TurboGears, Django and Pylons are all nice, and provides rich features
    > - probably too many for us - but, as far as we understand, they don't
    > satisfy the stability requirement - Pylons and Django hasn't even
    > reached 1.0 version yet. And their provide too thick layer - we want
    > something 'closer to metal', probably similar to web.py -
    > unfortunately, web.py doesn't satisfy the stability requirement
    > either, or so it seems.
    >
    > So the question is: what is a solid way to serve dynamic web pages in
    > python? Our initial though was something like python + mod_python +
    > Apache, but we're told that mod_python is 'scary and doesn't work very
    > well'.
    >
    > And althoughhttp://www.python.org/about/quotes/lists many big names
    > and wonderful examples, be want more details. E.g. our understanding
    > is that Google uses python mostly for internal web-sites, and
    > performance is far from perfect their. YouTube is an interesting
    > example - anybody knows more details about that?
    >
    > Your suggestions and comments are highly welcome!
    >
    > Best Regards,
    > Victor.



    Take a look at reddit.com .
    It's been developed with WEBPY and it receives millions of visits
    every day.
    There are also many sites built with Django (check their website) with
    a lot of traffic and very good performance
    And I'm sure other frameworks can show other success stories... just
    check their websites.

    Luis
    =?iso-8859-1?q?Luis_M=2E_Gonz=E1lez?=, May 17, 2007
    #3
  4. On May 16, 6:04 pm, Victor Kryukov <> wrote:
    > Hello list,
    >
    > our team is going to rewrite our existing web-site, which has a lot of
    > dynamic content and was quickly prototyped some time ago.
    >
    > Today, as we get better idea of what we need, we're going to re-write
    > everything from scratch. Python is an obvious candidate for our team:
    > everybody knows it, everybody likes it, it has *real* objects, nice
    > clean syntax etc.
    >
    > Our main requirement for tools we're going to use is rock-solid
    > stability. As one of our team-members puts it, "We want to use tools
    > that are stable, has many developer-years and thousands of user-years
    > behind them, and that we shouldn't worry about their _versions_." The
    > main reason for that is that we want to debug our own bugs, but not
    > the bugs in our tools.
    >
    > Our problem is - we yet have to find any example of high-traffic,
    > scalable web-site written entirely in Python. We know that YouTube is
    > a suspect, but we don't know what specific python web solution was
    > used there.
    >
    > TurboGears, Django and Pylons are all nice, and provides rich features
    > - probably too many for us - but, as far as we understand, they don't
    > satisfy the stability requirement - Pylons and Django hasn't even
    > reached 1.0 version yet. And their provide too thick layer - we want
    > something 'closer to metal', probably similar to web.py -
    > unfortunately, web.py doesn't satisfy the stability requirement
    > either, or so it seems.
    >
    > So the question is: what is a solid way to serve dynamic web pages in
    > python? Our initial though was something like python + mod_python +
    > Apache, but we're told that mod_python is 'scary and doesn't work very
    > well'.
    >
    > And althoughhttp://www.python.org/about/quotes/lists many big names
    > and wonderful examples, be want more details. E.g. our understanding
    > is that Google uses python mostly for internal web-sites, and
    > performance is far from perfect their. YouTube is an interesting
    > example - anybody knows more details about that?
    >
    > Your suggestions and comments are highly welcome!
    >
    > Best Regards,
    > Victor.



    Take a look at reddit.com .
    It's been developed with WEBPY and it receives millions of visits
    every day.
    There are also many sites built with Django (check their website) with
    a lot of traffic and very good performance
    And I'm sure other frameworks can show other success stories... just
    check their websites.

    Luis
    =?iso-8859-1?q?Luis_M=2E_Gonz=E1lez?=, May 17, 2007
    #4
  5. On May 16, 6:04 pm, Victor Kryukov <> wrote:
    > Hello list,
    >
    > our team is going to rewrite our existing web-site, which has a lot of
    > dynamic content and was quickly prototyped some time ago.
    >
    > Today, as we get better idea of what we need, we're going to re-write
    > everything from scratch. Python is an obvious candidate for our team:
    > everybody knows it, everybody likes it, it has *real* objects, nice
    > clean syntax etc.
    >
    > Our main requirement for tools we're going to use is rock-solid
    > stability. As one of our team-members puts it, "We want to use tools
    > that are stable, has many developer-years and thousands of user-years
    > behind them, and that we shouldn't worry about their _versions_." The
    > main reason for that is that we want to debug our own bugs, but not
    > the bugs in our tools.
    >
    > Our problem is - we yet have to find any example of high-traffic,
    > scalable web-site written entirely in Python. We know that YouTube is
    > a suspect, but we don't know what specific python web solution was
    > used there.
    >
    > TurboGears, Django and Pylons are all nice, and provides rich features
    > - probably too many for us - but, as far as we understand, they don't
    > satisfy the stability requirement - Pylons and Django hasn't even
    > reached 1.0 version yet. And their provide too thick layer - we want
    > something 'closer to metal', probably similar to web.py -
    > unfortunately, web.py doesn't satisfy the stability requirement
    > either, or so it seems.
    >
    > So the question is: what is a solid way to serve dynamic web pages in
    > python? Our initial though was something like python + mod_python +
    > Apache, but we're told that mod_python is 'scary and doesn't work very
    > well'.
    >
    > And althoughhttp://www.python.org/about/quotes/lists many big names
    > and wonderful examples, be want more details. E.g. our understanding
    > is that Google uses python mostly for internal web-sites, and
    > performance is far from perfect their. YouTube is an interesting
    > example - anybody knows more details about that?
    >
    > Your suggestions and comments are highly welcome!
    >
    > Best Regards,
    > Victor.



    Reddit.com was built with webpy, and it's amongst the top 1000
    websites in volume of traffic.
    So if you liked it, go with it...
    I believe one of the authors of reddit is also webpy's developer.

    Luis
    =?iso-8859-1?q?Luis_M=2E_Gonz=E1lez?=, May 17, 2007
    #5
  6. On May 16, 5:04 pm, Victor Kryukov <> wrote:

    > Our main requirement for tools we're going to use is rock-solid
    > stability. As one of our team-members puts it, "We want to use tools
    > that are stable, has many developer-years and thousands of user-years
    > behind them, and that we shouldn't worry about their _versions_." The
    > main reason for that is that we want to debug our own bugs, but not
    > the bugs in our tools.


    I think this is a requirement that is pretty much impossible to
    satisfy. Only dead frameworks stay the same. I have yet to see a
    framework that did not have incompatible versions.

    Django has a very large user base, great documentation and is deployed
    for several online new and media sites. It is fast, it's efficient and
    is simple to use. Few modern frameworks (in any language) are
    comparable, and I have yet to see one that is better,

    http://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/DjangoPoweredSites

    i.
    Istvan Albert, May 17, 2007
    #6
  7. Victor Kryukov

    Jarek Zgoda Guest

    Re: Python Web Programming - looking for examples of solid high-trafficsites

    Victor Kryukov napisa³(a):

    > Our main requirement for tools we're going to use is rock-solid
    > stability. As one of our team-members puts it, "We want to use tools
    > that are stable, has many developer-years and thousands of user-years
    > behind them, and that we shouldn't worry about their _versions_." The
    > main reason for that is that we want to debug our own bugs, but not
    > the bugs in our tools.


    I don't think you find anything even remotely resembling that idea here.
    Moreover, I don't think you find it elsewhere. Maybe even such tools do
    not exist in nature?

    --
    Jarek Zgoda

    "We read Knuth so you don't have to."
    Jarek Zgoda, May 17, 2007
    #7
  8. Victor Kryukov

    Steve Holden Guest

    Re: Python Web Programming - looking for examples of solidhigh-traffic sites

    Victor Kryukov wrote:
    > Hello list,
    >
    > our team is going to rewrite our existing web-site, which has a lot of
    > dynamic content and was quickly prototyped some time ago.
    >

    And has stayed around to dog the developers, as so many quick fixes do ...

    > Today, as we get better idea of what we need, we're going to re-write
    > everything from scratch. Python is an obvious candidate for our team:
    > everybody knows it, everybody likes it, it has *real* objects, nice
    > clean syntax etc.
    >

    Yes indeedy, that's our language!

    > Our main requirement for tools we're going to use is rock-solid
    > stability. As one of our team-members puts it, "We want to use tools
    > that are stable, has many developer-years and thousands of user-years
    > behind them, and that we shouldn't worry about their _versions_." The
    > main reason for that is that we want to debug our own bugs, but not
    > the bugs in our tools.
    >

    Given that even Apache has bugs despite its venerable status I think you
    are setting your sights a little high here.

    > Our problem is - we yet have to find any example of high-traffic,
    > scalable web-site written entirely in Python. We know that YouTube is
    > a suspect, but we don't know what specific python web solution was
    > used there.
    >

    Zope? Plone? Django? TurboGears? All are handling large volumes of data
    on a daily basis, and I wouldn't use either of them (but that's just a
    personal issue).

    > TurboGears, Django and Pylons are all nice, and provides rich features
    > - probably too many for us - but, as far as we understand, they don't
    > satisfy the stability requirement - Pylons and Django hasn't even
    > reached 1.0 version yet. And their provide too thick layer - we want
    > something 'closer to metal', probably similar to web.py -
    > unfortunately, web.py doesn't satisfy the stability requirement
    > either, or so it seems.
    >
    > So the question is: what is a solid way to serve dynamic web pages in
    > python? Our initial though was something like python + mod_python +
    > Apache, but we're told that mod_python is 'scary and doesn't work very
    > well'.
    >

    Python CGI? mod_python is OK, but like all frameworks you have to be
    aware of its limitations.

    > And although http://www.python.org/about/quotes/ lists many big names
    > and wonderful examples, be want more details. E.g. our understanding
    > is that Google uses python mostly for internal web-sites, and
    > performance is far from perfect their. YouTube is an interesting
    > example - anybody knows more details about that?
    >

    Google use Python for all sorts of stuff.

    > Your suggestions and comments are highly welcome!
    >
    > Best Regards,
    > Victor.
    >

    I think you are chasing a chimera (and I wrote a *book* called "Python
    Web Programming").

    regards
    Steve
    --
    Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119
    Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com
    Skype: holdenweb http://del.icio.us/steve.holden
    ------------------ Asciimercial ---------------------
    Get on the web: Blog, lens and tag your way to fame!!
    holdenweb.blogspot.com squidoo.com/pythonology
    tagged items: del.icio.us/steve.holden/python
    All these services currently offer free registration!
    -------------- Thank You for Reading ----------------
    Steve Holden, May 17, 2007
    #8
  9. Victor Kryukov

    Paul Boddie Guest

    John Nagle wrote:
    > Victor Kryukov wrote:
    > >
    > > Our main requirement for tools we're going to use is rock-solid
    > > stability. As one of our team-members puts it, "We want to use tools
    > > that are stable, has many developer-years and thousands of user-years
    > > behind them, and that we shouldn't worry about their _versions_." The


    When settling on an environment you need to have a clear strategy
    about component versions and compatibility. Although Python provides a
    fairly reasonable backwards compatibility story, one still needs to be
    aware of changes between versions and their implications, but this is
    the case for a large proportion of the software produced today.
    Despite the baggage maintained by Microsoft so that ancient
    applications might still run in recent versions of Windows, to choose
    a fairly extreme example in certain respects, there are still many
    things to be aware of when maintaining or upgrading your environment.
    Saying that something needs "Python plus Windows/Linux plus some
    database system" isn't going to be enough if you're emphasizing
    stability.

    > > main reason for that is that we want to debug our own bugs, but not
    > > the bugs in our tools.

    >
    > You may not be happy with Python, then.
    >
    > Having spent the last several months implementing a reasonably complex
    > web site in Python, I now have an understanding of the problems involved.
    > Which are non-trivial.


    I'm sure they are, which is why I attempt to use the tools and
    services available to reduce the impact of those problems on myself.

    > Some key web site components, like the SSL interface and the
    > MySQL interface, are written in C and maintained by third parties,
    > often by a single person. Getting the correct version for your
    > platform and making it work can be difficult. Getting the right
    > versions of MySQL, OpenSSL, and Python to all play together is
    > non-trivial. Expect to have to build from source, debug the build
    > process, look at source repositories, submit bug reports, fix
    > library bugs yourself, and maintain a local set of library patches.


    I think we went through this before, but to what extent did you rely
    on your distribution to handle many of these issues? Or was this on
    Windows? If so, you're the master of your own distribution rather than
    a group of helpful people who've probably already done most of that
    work.

    > Few hosting companies will have these modules available for you.
    > It's not like Perl or PHP, where it works out of the box. WebFaction
    > claims to support Python well, but few other hosting companies bother.
    > Most Linux distributions ship with older versions of Python, and
    > that's what most hosting companies will give you. Python 2.4
    > is par for the course.


    There's nothing wrong with Python 2.4. Perhaps you've inadvertently
    highlighted an issue with the Python community: that everyone wants
    the latest and greatest, and sees the CPython distribution as the
    primary means of delivering it. If so, you've just included yourself
    in the group causing yourself all those problems described above.

    Paul

    P.S. The inquirer may wish to visit sites representing the different
    frameworks in order to seek testimonials, and to look for sites using
    those frameworks in order to assess their popularity. Zope, Plone,
    Django, TurboGears, Webware and many others have delivered high-
    profile sites at various times, as far as I recall.
    Paul Boddie, May 17, 2007
    #9
  10. Victor Kryukov

    Chris Cioffi Guest

    Re: Python Web Programming - looking for examples of solidhigh-traffic sites

    I think the first question I would have is what kind of dynamic
    content are you talking about? Is this a web app kind of thing, or
    just a content pushing site?

    While Django might not be v1.0 yet, it seems very solid and stable,
    and perfect for quickly building powerful content based dynamic sites.

    Other Python frameworks might be well suited to other types of dynamic
    sites. (I like TurboGears for actual web apps...)

    Depending on your needs you might also consider a non-python solution
    (!) like Drupal. (I'm not a PHP fan, but since other people have done
    all that great work....:)

    As others have said, there might be no framework currently in
    existence that meets all of your requirements. You'll need to work
    with your team to decide what kinds of compromises you can all live
    with.

    Chris
    --
    "A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only
    a fool trusts either of them." -- P. J. O'Rourke
    Chris Cioffi, May 17, 2007
    #10
  11. Victor Kryukov

    John Nagle Guest

    Re: Python Web Programming - looking for examples of solid high-trafficsites

    Jarek Zgoda wrote:
    > Victor Kryukov napisa³(a):
    >
    >
    >>Our main requirement for tools we're going to use is rock-solid
    >>stability. As one of our team-members puts it, "We want to use tools
    >>that are stable, has many developer-years and thousands of user-years
    >>behind them, and that we shouldn't worry about their _versions_." The
    >>main reason for that is that we want to debug our own bugs, but not
    >>the bugs in our tools.

    >
    >
    > I don't think you find anything even remotely resembling that idea here.
    > Moreover, I don't think you find it elsewhere. Maybe even such tools do
    > not exist in nature?


    Sure they do. I have a complex web site, "http://www.downside.com",
    that's implemented with Perl, Apache, and MySQL. It automatically reads SEC
    filings and parses them to produce financial analyses. It's been
    running for seven years, and hasn't been modified in five, except once
    when the NASDAQ changed the format of their ticker symbol file.

    It's not that useful at this point, because its purpose was to predict
    failing dot-coms, but it's still running and doing a sizable amount of
    work every day to update itself.

    John Nagle
    John Nagle, May 17, 2007
    #11
  12. Victor Kryukov <> wrote:
    ...
    > And although http://www.python.org/about/quotes/ lists many big names
    > and wonderful examples, be want more details. E.g. our understanding
    > is that Google uses python mostly for internal web-sites, and
    > performance is far from perfect their. YouTube is an interesting
    > example - anybody knows more details about that?


    Hmmm, I do, but exactly because I _do_ know a lot more details I cannot
    discuss them unless you're under the proper Non-Disclosure Agreement
    with Google, Inc. The best I can do otherwise is to point you to
    already existing webpages -- I'm not going to reveal Google-Confidential
    information, nor go to the substantial trouble to get such info cleared
    by Legal and all other Google stakeholders.

    For example, it HAS been published elsewhere that YouTube uses lighttpd,
    not Apache: <http://trac.lighttpd.net/trac/wiki/PoweredByLighttpd>.

    Fortunately, I managed to convince my YouTube colleagues to publically
    present many more details about the evolution of their architecture
    which had been discussed in Google-confidential talks and presentations
    -- and my wife Anna, who's on the program selection committee of OSCON,
    may have helped that talk get accepted (must not have been a hard
    job:). See:
    <http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2007/view/e_sess/13435>

    I hope to see you (and anybody else interested in solid technical
    details about using Python for websites on YouTube's scale) in Portland,
    OR on July 26 -- that will also be your first and best chance to ask
    Mike Solomon specific questions that his talk might not directly
    address. Once that's done, maybe somebody can convince the YouTube guys
    to contribute a "Python Success Story" so that future querants about
    this can be easily pointed to a URL!-)

    I would also encourage anybody who's so keenly interested in Python to
    visit our jobs-listing web app, e.g., if within the US, at
    <http://www.google.com/support/jobs/bin/topic.py?loc_id=1100&dep_id=1173
    &by_loc=1>. Of course, one should *never* have the implementation
    language of a web-app show up in the URL, and I believe we've carefully
    avoided that error in other external-facing web-apps, such as (one I can
    reveal is indeed in Python, because that was mentioned at
    <http://www.sauria.com/~twl/conferences/pycon2005/20050325/Python at%2
    0Google.html>) code.google.com. Etc, etc.

    Performance of web-apps (be they internal or external) depends more on
    the architecture than on the implementation language (as long as highly
    optimized C or C++, NOT Java or Python or whatever, is used for the few
    jobs that are extremely CPU-intensive, such as codecs, of course:).

    So, if some Python-coded internal web-apps at Google perform badly
    (which may be the case as you say, though I can't think of any
    off-hand), it must be an issue of architecture. For example, a heavily
    used internal web-app at Google is Mondrian,
    <http://www.niallkennedy.com/blog/archives/2006/11/google-mondrian.html>
    , Guido van Rossum's web-app for code review -- it's got a good, solid
    architecture, and its performance is so good that many Googlers, me
    included, have switched to it for all the reviews we do (and, believe
    me, we do MANY -- _nothing_ is submitted to the global code repository
    until it's been OK'd in a code review). I can't mention other such apps
    because, AFAIK, they haven't been previously talked about in public and
    so they're Google Confidential by default until otherwise determined.


    Alex
    Alex Martelli, May 18, 2007
    #12
  13. Daniel Nogradi, May 18, 2007
    #13
  14. Victor Kryukov

    Jarek Zgoda Guest

    Jarek Zgoda, May 18, 2007
    #14
  15. Re: Python Web Programming - looking for examples of solid high-trafficsites

    John Nagle a écrit :
    > Victor Kryukov wrote:
    >> Hello list,
    >>
    >> our team is going to rewrite our existing web-site, which has a lot of
    >> dynamic content and was quickly prototyped some time ago.

    > ...
    >> Our main requirement for tools we're going to use is rock-solid
    >> stability. As one of our team-members puts it, "We want to use tools
    >> that are stable, has many developer-years and thousands of user-years
    >> behind them, and that we shouldn't worry about their _versions_." The
    >> main reason for that is that we want to debug our own bugs, but not
    >> the bugs in our tools.

    >
    > You may not be happy with Python, then.


    John, I'm really getting tired of your systemic and totally
    unconstructive criticism. If *you* are not happy with Python, by all
    means use another language.
    Bruno Desthuilliers, May 18, 2007
    #15
  16. Re: Python Web Programming - looking for examples of solid high-trafficsites

    Istvan Albert a écrit :
    > On May 16, 5:04 pm, Victor Kryukov <> wrote:
    >
    >> Our main requirement for tools we're going to use is rock-solid
    >> stability. As one of our team-members puts it, "We want to use tools
    >> that are stable, has many developer-years and thousands of user-years
    >> behind them, and that we shouldn't worry about their _versions_." The
    >> main reason for that is that we want to debug our own bugs, but not
    >> the bugs in our tools.

    >
    > I think this is a requirement that is pretty much impossible to
    > satisfy. Only dead frameworks stay the same. I have yet to see a
    > framework that did not have incompatible versions.
    >
    > Django has a very large user base, great documentation and is deployed
    > for several online new and media sites. It is fast, it's efficient and
    > is simple to use. Few modern frameworks (in any language) are
    > comparable, and I have yet to see one that is better,


    Then have a look at Pylons.
    Bruno Desthuilliers, May 18, 2007
    #16
  17. Re: Python Web Programming - looking for examples of solid high-traffic sites

    Jarek Zgoda <> wrote:

    > Daniel Nogradi napisa?(a):
    >
    > >> For example, it HAS been published elsewhere that YouTube uses lighttpd,
    > >> not Apache: <http://trac.lighttpd.net/trac/wiki/PoweredByLighttpd>.

    > >
    > > How do you explain these, then:
    > >
    > > http://www.youtube.com/results.xxx
    > > http://www.youtube.com/results.php
    > > http://www.youtube.com/results.py

    >
    > Server signature is usually configurable.


    Yeah, but I don't know why it's configured it that way. A good example
    of a question that looks perfectly appropriate for YouTube's OSCON
    session.


    Alex
    Alex Martelli, May 18, 2007
    #17
  18. Re: Python Web Programming - looking for examples of solidhigh-traffic sites

    > > >> For example, it HAS been published elsewhere that YouTube uses lighttpd,
    > > >> not Apache: <http://trac.lighttpd.net/trac/wiki/PoweredByLighttpd>.
    > > >
    > > > How do you explain these, then:
    > > >
    > > > http://www.youtube.com/results.xxx
    > > > http://www.youtube.com/results.php
    > > > http://www.youtube.com/results.py

    > >
    > > Server signature is usually configurable.

    >
    > Yeah, but I don't know why it's configured it that way. A good example
    > of a question that looks perfectly appropriate for YouTube's OSCON
    > session.


    Let us know what they say! :)
    Daniel Nogradi, May 18, 2007
    #18
  19. Victor Kryukov

    John Nagle Guest

    Re: Python Web Programming - looking for examples of solid high-trafficsites

    Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
    > John Nagle a écrit :
    >
    >> Victor Kryukov wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hello list,
    >>>
    >>> our team is going to rewrite our existing web-site, which has a lot of
    >>> dynamic content and was quickly prototyped some time ago.

    >>
    >> ...
    >>
    >>> Our main requirement for tools we're going to use is rock-solid
    >>> stability. As one of our team-members puts it, "We want to use tools
    >>> that are stable, has many developer-years and thousands of user-years
    >>> behind them, and that we shouldn't worry about their _versions_." The
    >>> main reason for that is that we want to debug our own bugs, but not
    >>> the bugs in our tools.

    >>
    >>
    >> You may not be happy with Python, then.

    >
    >
    > John, I'm really getting tired of your systemic and totally
    > unconstructive criticism. If *you* are not happy with Python, by all
    > means use another language.


    Denying the existence of the problem won't fix it.

    Many of the basic libraries for web related functions do have
    problems. Even standard modules like "urllib" and "SSL" are buggy,
    and have been for years. Outside the standard modules, it gets
    worse, especially for ones with C components. Version incompatibility
    for extensions is a serious problem. That's reality.

    It's a good language, but the library situation is poor. Python as
    a language is better than Perl, but CPAN is better run than Cheese Shop.

    As a direct result of this, neither the Linux distro builders like
    Red Hat nor major hosting providers provide Python environments that
    just work. That's reality.

    John Nagle
    John Nagle, May 18, 2007
    #19
  20. Re: Python Web Programming - looking for examples of solidhigh-traffic sites

    > > >> For example, it HAS been published elsewhere that YouTube uses lighttpd,
    > > >> not Apache: <http://trac.lighttpd.net/trac/wiki/PoweredByLighttpd>.
    > > >
    > > > How do you explain these, then:
    > > >
    > > > http://www.youtube.com/results.xxx
    > > > http://www.youtube.com/results.php
    > > > http://www.youtube.com/results.py

    > >
    > > Server signature is usually configurable.

    >
    > Yeah, but I don't know why it's configured it that way. A good example
    > of a question that looks perfectly appropriate for YouTube's OSCON
    > session.


    Actually, the fact that http://www.youtube.com/results.php returns
    legitimate content might be explainable by the fact that youtube was
    started as a PHP app so they might provide this URL for backward
    compatibility although today there is no PHP at all. See the abstract
    of Mike Solomon's OSCON talk: "YouTube began as a small PHP
    application. [...]"
    http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2007/view/e_sess/13435
    Daniel Nogradi, May 18, 2007
    #20
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