Python's website does a great disservice to the language

Discussion in 'Python' started by CppNewB, Nov 1, 2005.

  1. CppNewB

    CppNewB Guest

    I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming prototype, so my boss
    went out to take a look at the documentation and try and get a feel for what
    the language is all about.

    First comment; "I hope the language is designed better than the site." The
    site is readable, but is amateurish. If I had an ounce of design skills in
    me, I would take a stab at it.

    Maybe we could round up a couple of designers to donate some time? Maybe we
    could build a basic CMS on top of Django or TurboGears (displaying Python's
    capability as a web development stack)?
    CppNewB, Nov 1, 2005
    #1
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  2. On 2005-11-01, CppNewB <> wrote:

    > I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming
    > prototype, so my boss went out to take a look at the
    > documentation and try and get a feel for what the language is
    > all about.
    >
    > First comment; "I hope the language is designed better than
    > the site."


    It sounds like you work for the prototypical PHB.

    > The site is readable, but is amateurish. If I had an ounce of
    > design skills in me, I would take a stab at it.


    May God save us from "professional" looking web sites.

    > Maybe we could round up a couple of designers to donate some
    > time? Maybe we could build a basic CMS on top of Django or
    > TurboGears (displaying Python's capability as a web
    > development stack)?


    I like the Python web site. It's simple, easy to read, and easy to
    use. Just like the lanuage.

    --
    Grant Edwards grante Yow! Yow!! That's a GOOD
    at IDEA!! Eating a whole FIELD
    visi.com of COUGH MEDICINE should
    make you feel MUCH BETTER!!
    Grant Edwards, Nov 1, 2005
    #2
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  3. CppNewB

    Steve Holden Guest

    CppNewB wrote:
    > I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming prototype, so my boss
    > went out to take a look at the documentation and try and get a feel for what
    > the language is all about.
    >
    > First comment; "I hope the language is designed better than the site." The
    > site is readable, but is amateurish. If I had an ounce of design skills in
    > me, I would take a stab at it.
    >
    > Maybe we could round up a couple of designers to donate some time? Maybe we
    > could build a basic CMS on top of Django or TurboGears (displaying Python's
    > capability as a web development stack)?
    >

    A redesign is complete, and should be deployed by the end of the year.

    In the meantime please assure your boss that the language *is* far
    better designed than the (current) web site, and that he shouldn't judge
    a bottle by its label :)

    [Thinks: wonder if it's time to release a sneak preview].

    regards
    Steve
    --
    Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
    Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com
    PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/
    Steve Holden, Nov 1, 2005
    #3
  4. CppNewB

    CppNewB Guest

    Good news Steve.

    It's definitely time for a sneak preview. Let's see it!

    "Steve Holden" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > CppNewB wrote:
    >> I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming prototype, so my
    >> boss went out to take a look at the documentation and try and get a feel
    >> for what the language is all about.
    >>
    >> First comment; "I hope the language is designed better than the site."
    >> The site is readable, but is amateurish. If I had an ounce of design
    >> skills in me, I would take a stab at it.
    >>
    >> Maybe we could round up a couple of designers to donate some time? Maybe
    >> we could build a basic CMS on top of Django or TurboGears (displaying
    >> Python's capability as a web development stack)?
    >>

    > A redesign is complete, and should be deployed by the end of the year.
    >
    > In the meantime please assure your boss that the language *is* far better
    > designed than the (current) web site, and that he shouldn't judge a bottle
    > by its label :)
    >
    > [Thinks: wonder if it's time to release a sneak preview].
    >
    > regards
    > Steve
    > --
    > Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
    > Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com
    > PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/
    >
    CppNewB, Nov 1, 2005
    #4
  5. "CppNewB" wrote:

    > I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming prototype, so my boss
    > went out to take a look at the documentation and try and get a feel for what
    > the language is all about.
    >
    > First comment; "I hope the language is designed better than the site."


    so your boss is a troll, and you cannot use a search engine. I hope you're
    company is more competent than it appears ;-)

    (hint: a redesign is in progress, sponsored by the PSF. google for "python.org
    redesign 2005" for more info. bte, the current design was created by people
    who've won more design awards than most web firms; the design is old (1998),
    not unusable...)

    </F>
    Fredrik Lundh, Nov 1, 2005
    #5
  6. CppNewB

    Guest

    Grant Edwards wrote:
    > May God save us from "professional" looking web sites.
    > I like the Python web site. It's simple, easy to read, and easy to
    > use.


    I strongly agree with you, the web is full of web sites that are nice
    "looking" but have microscopic fixed fonts (against the very spirit of
    Html), are full of useless flash, have lots of html structures nested
    inside other ones (PHP sites are often like this, with dirty
    sourcecode), are difficult/slow to render on differnt/old browsers
    (best viewed with its webmaster browser only), are two times bigger
    than necessary, etc. Python web site can be improved, but there are lot
    of ways to make it worse.

    Bye,
    bearophile
    , Nov 1, 2005
    #6
  7. message = message.replace("you're", "your")
    Fredrik Lundh, Nov 1, 2005
    #7
  8. On Nov 01, CppNewB wrote:
    > First comment; "I hope the language is designed better than the
    > site." The site is readable, but is amateurish.


    That's flaim bait if I ever saw it!

    I find the site quite lovely: very readable, no ads, well organized,
    nice colors, simple, easy to maintain (uses ht2html with ReST). What
    are you comparing it to? Have a look at homepages for ruby, java,
    tcl, and perl. I consider python.org superior to all of them. It is
    my personal benchmark for webpage usability.

    --
    _ _ ___
    |V|icah |- lliott http://micah.elliott.name
    " " """
    Micah Elliott, Nov 1, 2005
    #8
  9. enlightened us with:
    > I strongly agree with you, the web is full of web sites that are
    > nice "looking" but have microscopic fixed fonts (against the very
    > spirit of Html), are full of useless flash, have lots of html
    > structures nested inside other ones (PHP sites are often like this,
    > with dirty sourcecode), are difficult/slow to render on differnt/old
    > browsers (best viewed with its webmaster browser only), are two
    > times bigger than necessary, etc. Python web site can be improved,
    > but there are lot of ways to make it worse.


    I agree to the fullest! I'd rather have a website that I can read and
    can click through in seconds.

    Sybren
    --
    The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
    capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
    safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
    Frank Zappa
    Sybren Stuvel, Nov 1, 2005
    #9
  10. CppNewB

    Guest

    So the first thing you do when you go to a web page is to google if
    they are going to redesign it?
    --
    Svenn
    , Nov 1, 2005
    #10
  11. wrote:
    > So the first thing you do when you go to a web page is to google if
    > they are going to redesign it?


    I think the implication was "The first thing to do before *suggesting
    that a redesign is nessasary* is to Google to see if such a redesign is
    taking place."
    Rocco Moretti, Nov 1, 2005
    #11
  12. CppNewB

    Robert Kern Guest

    wrote:
    > So the first thing you do when you go to a web page is to google if
    > they are going to redesign it?


    No one is suggesting that it should be. However, Googling before coming
    to a newsgroup to complain about anything is usually a good idea.

    --
    Robert Kern


    "In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
    Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
    -- Richard Harter
    Robert Kern, Nov 1, 2005
    #12
  13. wrote:

    > So the first thing you do when you go to a web page is to google if
    > they are going to redesign it?


    the first thing he did was to go to the page, the next thing he did was
    to post a "can we round up a couple of designers?" message with an in-
    flammatory subject line. that algorithm is rather simplistic, and can be
    greatly improved by inserting a "let's check google" clause at the right
    place.

    (and yes, making your boss look stupid is never a good idea)

    </F>
    Fredrik Lundh, Nov 1, 2005
    #13
  14. wrote:
    > Grant Edwards wrote:
    >> May God save us from "professional" looking web sites.
    >> I like the Python web site. It's simple, easy to read, and easy to
    >> use.

    >
    > I strongly agree with you, the web is full of web sites that are nice
    > "looking" but have microscopic fixed fonts (against the very spirit of
    > Html), are full of useless flash, have lots of html structures nested
    > inside other ones (PHP sites are often like this, with dirty
    > sourcecode), are difficult/slow to render on differnt/old browsers
    > (best viewed with its webmaster browser only), are two times bigger
    > than necessary, etc. Python web site can be improved, but there are lot
    > of ways to make it worse.
    >
    > Bye,
    > bearophile
    >


    Agreed completely. Because the site works WITH HTML rather than
    AGAINST it, it renders very quickly - small data size and easy on
    the browser. It is a very functional reference site and
    "prettying it up" would probably greatly detract from its utility.

    I hope the new site design continues to be as easy on the eye,
    and as quick to use.

    Last time I wrote to a web site saying how clean and easy their
    web site was to use, they added a bucket-load of graphics shortly
    afterwards. Made it take twice as long to load, and added nothing
    to usability.

    A new logo might be in order though.

    Steve
    Steve Horsley, Nov 1, 2005
    #14
  15. On Tuesday 01 November 2005 01:32 pm, wrote:
    > So the first thing you do when you go to a web page is to google if
    > they are going to redesign it?


    No, but it might be wise before posting a potentially inflammatory and
    insulting comment about in on the mailing list. ;-)

    Seriously, though, what would you change about it? It's not flashy,
    but works extremely well. You can say the same for Python itself
    -- I think that may be its best quality. So how better to show that
    than by having a site with the same character?

    --
    Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com )
    Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com
    Terry Hancock, Nov 1, 2005
    #15
  16. CppNewB

    John J. Lee Guest

    Robert Boyd <> writes:
    [...]
    > rounded corners. The Python site is clean and to-the-point. I guess I could
    > admin that the various Python logos look dated, but that's about it. Oh, and

    [...]

    I love the logos!

    python.org looks simple to me, not amateurish. But that just goes to
    show that I think differently from your PHB, and in my book the
    details of the visual design should be aimed at attracting more people
    to the language as well as being easy to use, so I'm happy there's a
    redesign.


    John
    John J. Lee, Nov 1, 2005
    #16
  17. CppNewB

    CppNewB Guest

    "Fredrik Lundh" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > wrote:
    >
    > to post a "can we round up a couple of designers?" message with an in-
    > flammatory subject line. that algorithm is rather simplistic, and can be


    If it's any consolation, I did check Google Groups before posting. There's
    a couple vague posts, most from a couple of years ago, but nothing
    indivcative that a redesign was right around the corner....

    My query:
    http://groups.google.com/groups?as_...81&as_maxd=1&as_maxm=11&as_maxy=2005&safe=off

    Inflammatory? Usually the thing you are most defensive about is the subject
    matter you should be evaluating closer.

    My thoughts weren't to add a flash demo or develop some 500K logo or fixing
    the font size. But the logos look like they were done in Paint and maybe a
    readable default font is in order.

    Look at the site not as a resource for Python (for which it is a great) but
    as an entity forming your first impressions of the project.
    CppNewB, Nov 1, 2005
    #17
  18. CppNewB

    CppNewB Guest

    "John J. Lee" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Robert Boyd <> writes:
    > [...]
    >> rounded corners. The Python site is clean and to-the-point. I guess I
    >> could
    >> admin that the various Python logos look dated, but that's about it. Oh,
    >> and

    > [...]
    >
    > I love the logos!


    Exactly my sentiment.

    I know Python's capabilities and I am more than satisfied. I was introduced
    by a friend, not the website.

    But to the masses of asses out there that are quickly evaluating their
    development choices and jumping from Visual Studio to Delphi's website to
    Ruby on Rail's website, the aesthetic welcome will be worn out once they get
    to python.org.
    CppNewB, Nov 1, 2005
    #18
  19. Steve Holden wrote:
    >
    > [Thinks: wonder if it's time to release a sneak preview].
    >


    It is! It is!

    /David
    David Rasmussen, Nov 1, 2005
    #19
  20. CppNewB

    Guest

    CppNewB>and maybe a readable default font is in order.<

    That font looks fine to me, maybe there's a problem in the default font
    of your browser, you can probably fix your problem...

    Bye,
    bearophile
    , Nov 1, 2005
    #20
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