Q. Is this group geared toward non-Microsoft platforms?

J

Jim Jones

Hi,

I need to know if this group is geared towards non-Microsoft
platofrms, ie Internet Explorer.

Whenever I ask a question here, I'm responded to with "use style
sheets".

Well, that's fine, but I don't really want to.

Are style sheets better suited or Mac, Unix, Linux or something?
Please explain, what's the reason for suggesting Style Sheets all the
time.

To date, I've had no problems for years without them.
I really need to know.

Thanks,
Jim "The un-initiated to style-sheets" Jones
 
K

Kris

Jim Jones said:
I need to know if this group is geared towards non-Microsoft
platofrms, ie Internet Explorer.

Except for a few oddballs, this group seems to be geared toward
authoring for the web, not any platforms or browsers in particular.
Whenever I ask a question here, I'm responded to with "use style
sheets".

Maybe you are asking the wrong questions? Anyway, style sheets and
anti-MSIE sentiment have little in common.
 
H

Hywel

Hi,

I need to know if this group is geared towards non-Microsoft
platofrms, ie Internet Explorer.
No.


Whenever I ask a question here, I'm responded to with "use style
sheets".

Well, that's fine, but I don't really want to.

Why not?

Are style sheets better suited or Mac, Unix, Linux or something?

No. They're better suited to browsers.

Please explain, what's the reason for suggesting Style Sheets all the
time.

To separate style from substance.

To date, I've had no problems for years without them.

Fair enough. I know a lot of COBOL programmers.


http://www.w3c.org/ is your friend.
 
C

C A Upsdell

Jim Jones said:
I need to know if this group is geared towards non-Microsoft platofrms, ie Internet Explorer.

Whenever I ask a question here, I'm responded to with "use style sheets".

Well, that's fine, but I don't really want to.

You don't have to use CSS. Just as you don't have to drive a car: a horse
and buggy will get you around ... so long as you accept their limitations.
Are style sheets better suited or Mac, Unix, Linux or something? Please
explain, what's the reason for suggesting Style Sheets all the

CSS is a standard. It is not tied to any particular O/S. It is well
supported by Opera and the Mozilla-based browsers; IE was the most
CSS-compliant browser for years, but today is a tad behind.

CSS gives you more profound control over the appearance of your pages, and
does not force you to use proprietary technologies.
To date, I've had no problems for years without them.

You have had problems. You just haven't realized it.
 
R

Richard

Jim said:
I need to know if this group is geared towards non-Microsoft
platofrms, ie Internet Explorer.
Whenever I ask a question here, I'm responded to with "use style
sheets".
Well, that's fine, but I don't really want to.
Are style sheets better suited or Mac, Unix, Linux or something?
Please explain, what's the reason for suggesting Style Sheets all the
time.
To date, I've had no problems for years without them.
I really need to know.
Thanks,
Jim "The un-initiated to style-sheets" Jones


The group name is alt.html, not alt.html.css.stylesheets.
Although some in the group oppose the use of tables and frames, that should
not be the reason to slap somebody around merely for mentioning the two
items.
If one has a question on the use of something that a reader does not approve
of, the answer should be given without the bullshit demands.
I personally feel that if a person wants to use tables and frames, then that
is their choice and do it the way they want done.

Tables and frames are supported by all browsers. CSS is not.

If you have a question on html, ask it. Just be prepared to get whacked by
the proponents of CSS.
 
W

Whitecrest

I need to know if this group is geared towards non-Microsoft
platofrms, ie Internet Explorer.

This group is geared towards Web development, that includes MS and non-
MS development.
Whenever I ask a question here, I'm responded to with "use style
sheets".
Well, that's fine, but I don't really want to.

when you ask a question, everyone gives you the answer THEY think is
right. Weight the answers and do what you think is best.
Are style sheets better suited or Mac, Unix, Linux or something?
Please explain, what's the reason for suggesting Style Sheets all the
time.

Style sheets have no platform. They are for everyone
To date, I've had no problems for years without them.
I really need to know.

So continue without them. Again there are all types here, and all
opinions.
 
D

David Dorward

Richard said:
The group name is alt.html, not alt.html.css.stylesheets.

And, on my nntp server at least[1], the description of the group is "Use
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html instead" and we pay so much attention
to that.
Although some in the group oppose the use of tables and frames, that

I don't recall ever seeing anyone in this group oppose the use of tables,
only the abuse of them.
should not be the reason to slap somebody around merely for mentioning the
two items.

Usually they are informed why table abuse and frame use is a bad idea, not
physically attacked.

And usually they would have their answer if they bothered to search the
archives or read the FAQ first.
If one has a question on the use of something that a reader does not
approve of, the answer should be given without the bullshit demands.

This is Usenet, not a paid helpdesk. Posters are not required to keep people
asking questions happy.
I personally feel that if a person wants to use tables and frames, then
that is their choice and do it the way they want done.

Well fine. I feel that if a person wants to inform people using frames and
abusing tables of the problems they might face and suggest better ways then
they can do that too. I also feel that if someone (or some group, like the
RNIB) wants to take a person abusing tables or using frames to court using
the Disabilities Discrimination Act, then thats fine too.
Tables and frames are supported by all browsers.

No they aren't.
CSS is not.

So?

[1] Is this universal? My knowledge of nntp isn't that great.
 
M

Mitja

Jim Jones said:
Hi,

I need to know if this group is geared towards non-Microsoft
platofrms, ie Internet Explorer.

Whenever I ask a question here, I'm responded to with "use style
sheets".

Well, that's fine, but I don't really want to.

Are style sheets better suited or Mac, Unix, Linux or something?
Please explain, what's the reason for suggesting Style Sheets all the
time.

To date, I've had no problems for years without them.
I really need to know.

Right.
See your last post... :)
 
C

C A Upsdell

Richard said:
Tables and frames are supported by all browsers. CSS is not.

Opera has options to disable frames and/or iframes. Amaya does not support
frames.

Old browsers, notably NN4, do not support iframes.

It is irrelevant that some browsers (e.g. NN3) do not support CSS, or do not
support CSS well (e.g. NN4). A good designer can design using much CSS in
such a way that pages gracefully degrade with deficient browsers.
 
W

Whitecrest

Opera has options to disable frames and/or iframes. Amaya does not support
frames.

First Opera DOES support frames, it allows you to disable that, so it is
user choice in those instances. As for Amaya, well the 8 of you have
made a decision to use a handicapped browser.
 
N

Neal

Hi,

I need to know if this group is geared towards non-Microsoft
platofrms, ie Internet Explorer.

It's geared toward designing for the WWW, not for (or against) any
particular browser.
Whenever I ask a question here, I'm responded to with "use style
sheets".

Well, that's fine, but I don't really want to.

If I advise using CSS, it's because I really feel it's the best option.
Sorry, if you don't want to, say so in your question.

Just curious - WHY do you bot really want to use CSS?
Are style sheets better suited or Mac, Unix, Linux or something?
Please explain, what's the reason for suggesting Style Sheets all the
time.

They are suited for any modern graphic (and other) browser. The reason
they are recommended is because often they are what is the best tool to
accomplish the task.
To date, I've had no problems for years without them.
I really need to know.

Being self-titled as "uninitiated", let me initiate you.

I never used CSS until a few years ago, and even then I used them only a
little. I for years relied on presentational HTML for my webpages. I used
tables for layout. I used frames. And I thought it worked ok, until the
day I saw it through other browsers and browsing situations, not like my
own.

I designed web pages which looked great in IE 5. When IE 6 came out, they
fell to pieces. I found I could re-design the pages to look good in both.
The key - design to the W3C standards, using modern HTML and - you guessed
it - style sheets.

I'm being honest here - the future of web design involves learning
everything CSS has to offer. I'm one of those who doesn't use tables for
layout, but who isn't mortally offended if someone else does - so long as
they are aware that CSS can do many things better than tables.

Is CSS the cure-all for web presentation? No, but as the web design model
is squarely heading toward near complete separation of content and
presentation, including presentation in the HTML is going to be out of
date in a very short while.

The train is leaving the station, friend. All aboard...
 
B

Barry Pearson

David said:
Richard wrote: [snip]
Although some in the group oppose the use of tables and frames, that

I don't recall ever seeing anyone in this group oppose the use of
tables, only the abuse of them.

But *they* assume they know what "abuse" of tables is! Apparently, without
feeling the need to prove their case. Others simply feel this is "use" of
tables, with plenty of historical & other justification.
Usually they are informed why table abuse and frame use is a bad
idea, not physically attacked.

I rarely, if ever, see useful statements about why use of layout tables is a
bad idea. When I do see statements, they tend not to stand up to scrutiny. In
fact, I don't think I've seen a useful definition of what a layout table
actually is.

And "abuse", without supporting evidence, is just a silly word that people use
when they haven't got a *real* argument that will stand up to scrutiny.

[snip]
Well fine. I feel that if a person wants to inform people using
frames and abusing tables of the problems they might face and suggest
better ways then they can do that too. I also feel that if someone
(or some group, like the RNIB) wants to take a person abusing tables
or using frames to court using the Disabilities Discrimination Act,
then thats fine too.
[snip]

It has been known since April 1999 that a linearising browser can handle
layout tables. Such pages are quite safe from prosecution for that reason.
Here are the most reported problems:

TABLE 6: CHECKPOINTS ACCOUNTING FOR MOST REPORTED PROBLEMS
Checkpoint Priority

1.1 Provide a text equivalent for every non-text element 1

2.2 Ensure that foreground and background colour combinations provide
sufficient contrast when viewed by someone having colour deficits or when
viewed on a black and white screen 2/3

6.3 Ensure that pages are usable when scripts, applets, or other programmatic
objects are turned off or not supported. If this is not possible, provide
equivalent information on an alternative accessible page 1

7.3 Until user agents allow users to freeze moving content, avoid movement in
pages 2

10.1 Until user agents allow users to turn off spawned windows, do not cause
pop-ups or other windows to appear and do not change the current window
without informing the user 2

12.3 Divide large blocks of information into more manageable groups where
natural and appropriate 2

13.1 Clearly identify the target of each link 2

14.1 Use the clearest and simplest language appropriate for a site's content 1

Disability Rights Commission news item:
http://www.drc-gb.org/newsroom/newsdetails.asp?id=633&section=1
Report at:
http://www.drc-gb.org/publicationsandreports/report.asp
 
P

Poison

First Opera DOES support frames, it allows you to disable that, so it is
user choice in those instances. As for Amaya, well the 8 of you have
made a decision to use a handicapped browser.

He didn't say that Opera DIDNT??? he said *Opera has _options_ to _disable_
frames and/or iframes.*

but nice comment on the Amaya, hehe made me chuckle.
 
T

Toby A Inkster

Jim said:
I need to know if this group is geared towards non-Microsoft
platofrms, ie Internet Explorer.

Whenever I ask a question here, I'm responded to with "use style
sheets".

How does saying "use style sheets" make someone anti-Microsoft. There are
plenty of Windows browsers that support style sheets -- even (shock!
horror!) Internet Explorer, which as C A Upsdell pointed out was once the
market leader in style sheet technology.
 
T

Toby A Inkster

David said:
And, on my nntp server at least[1], the description of the group is "Use
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html instead" and we pay so much attention
to that.

Newsgroup descriptions are more or less synchronised across news servers,
though I don't think there's any rule that says they must be.
 
B

brucie

in post: <
And, on my nntp server at least[1], the description of the group is "Use
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html instead" and we pay so much attention
to that.

"This group was neither proposed nor discussed on alt.config. If it had
been, the proponent would have first been directed to the alt creation
guidelines where he could learn why the name is so poor. Then he would
have been directed to the comp.infosystems.www hierarchy, where there
are many groups on this topic, including one specifically devoted to
writing HTML."

link is dead and i cant find a new one
ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/control/alt/alt.html
 
J

Jim Jones

Hi,

I need to know if this group is geared towards non-Microsoft
platofrms, ie Internet Explorer.

Whenever I ask a question here, I'm responded to with "use style
sheets".

Well, that's fine, but I don't really want to.

Are style sheets better suited or Mac, Unix, Linux or something?
Please explain, what's the reason for suggesting Style Sheets all the
time.

To date, I've had no problems for years without them.
I really need to know.

Thanks,
Jim "The un-initiated to style-sheets" Jones


I read most of the posts, but not all, I didnt expect to cause this
much controversey.

I will use style sheets.

Thanks so much for the opulent attention.

Jim
 
L

Leonard Blaisdell

"C A said:
Old browsers, notably NN4, do not support iframes.

In fact, my NN4 on an old Mac crashes my machine when it encounters
iframes. I've lost so much interest in NN4 that I don't even bother to
supply "much" (going for "no") styling for it anymore. Consequently,
people using NN4 on my sites may see the Net as I remember it in 1994 for
the most part. Gray background, black foreground, one block element before
another. This group weaned me from frames and iframes a long time ago.

leo
 
T

Toby A Inkster

Barry said:
I rarely, if ever, see useful statements about why use of layout tables is a
bad idea. When I do see statements, they tend not to stand up to scrutiny. In
fact, I don't think I've seen a useful definition of what a layout table
actually is.

Top 10 reasons for not using layout tables:

10. You don't want to upset Brucie.

9. Layout is a presentation matter. HTML (and thus the <table> tag!) is
designed for marking up a document's structure -- not for specifying how
it looks.

8. Tables can introduce accessibility problems (although these are often
overstated!)

7. As with all things CSS, it is useful to have all your styling in one
place so if you want to, say, move your navigation bar from the right to
the left, you don't need to edit 100 different HTML files: just one CSS
file.

6. As the HTML is simpler, it is easier to read and write.

5. Different style sheets can be provided for different media types
automatically. A page can look great on screen, and great on paper without
the visitor having to follow a link to another page. Then you can have
another style sheet for handhelds so narrow displays get the benefit of a
single column version of a design.

4. If tables were always used strictly for marking up tabular data, we
would now have some pretty nifty spreadsheet-like features in browsers --
sort alphabetically by table column, automatic totals of numeric cell
ranges, click on a table cell to highlight the appropriate row and column
headers, etc. I want these features. So everybody! only use tables for
marking up tabular data!

3. User agents can cache style sheets, and pages using style sheets for
layout are (in my experience) always smaller then the equivalent table
abuse. This means faster loading pages, and cheaper bandwidth bills.

2. Many browsers wait to download "</table>" before even beginning to
render the table. This can cause delays in rendering pages.

1. Every time you use a table for layout a puppy dies.

________
References:
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
 

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