qooxdoo trouble

Discussion in 'Javascript' started by Kenneth Tilton, Jul 31, 2010.

  1. Weird radio group behavior when one used a radio item that was a complex
    widget itself. Dig dig dig... aha! I had noticed they had cocked things
    up by not letting the complex item have a "model" property, and guess
    where the problem originated?

    The neat thing is I could then go here:

    http://demo.qooxdoo.org/current/playground/#

    Recreate the problem, and then post a link to it as an SPR!:

    http://tinyurl.com/296hdjg

    Click away from the complex item and then try to reselect it. No dice.

    I then added the model property in my code base and got on with pretty
    much finishing (in about six weeks full-time) the port of a desktop
    application to the web:

    http://teamalgebra.com/

    Those six weeks included a refresher on qooxdoo as well as some new bits
    and even worse, making friends with jsMath. Not that jsMath is not a
    great, easy-to-use library, but I am using it more dynamically than it
    is intended to be so ... actually, some work remains as you'll see from
    occasional misplaced math or mis-sized containers.

    Anyway, should be a much nicer year in Algebra for kids everywhere.

    Thx again to the folks in comp.lang.lisp who turned me on to qooxdoo and
    jsMath, and the folks in comp.lang.javascript who did absolutely nothing
    to help except entertain me during the rough bits. :)

    kt

    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Jul 31, 2010
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. re the "blank" keys issue Mr. Streater reported, I have had another such
    report with screenshot and now notice a telltale pixel at the very top
    of the buttons. This is my unresolved issue with getting positioning
    info from jsMath so I can accurately position those things within
    qooxdoo widgets: the character is there, it's just positioned outside
    the widget.

    Hmmm. Maybe this is a qooxdoo issue. They have an Html widget for raw
    HTML. Seems to me it should accept responsibility for displaying all the
    HTML absent any misguided directives from moi-self.

    dig dig dig....

    kt


    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Jul 31, 2010
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Kenneth Tilton

    David Mark Guest

    On Jul 30, 8:13 pm, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > Weird radio group behavior when one used a radio item that was a complex
    > widget itself.


    I could guess what that means, but I don't have time to speculate
    about qooxdoo.

    > Dig dig dig... aha! I had noticed they had cocked things
    > up by not letting the complex item have a "model" property, and guess
    > where the problem originated?


    See above.

    >
    > The neat thing is I could then go here:
    >
    >    http://demo.qooxdoo.org/current/playground/#


    I will guess that - whatever that is - I wouldn't find it "neat".

    >
    > Recreate the problem, and then post a link to it as an SPR!:
    >
    >    http://tinyurl.com/296hdjg


    Great.

    >
    > Click away from the complex item and then try to reselect it. No dice.


    You crapped out. Hate to say I told you so...

    >
    > I then added the model property in my code base and got on with pretty
    > much finishing (in about six weeks full-time) the port of a desktop
    > application to the web:


    Another patch? Upgrading that behemoth is sure to be that much more
    fun.

    >
    >    http://teamalgebra.com/


    I've seen enough of that, thank you.

    >
    > Those six weeks included a refresher on qooxdoo as well as some new bits
    > and even worse, making friends with jsMath.


    With friends like that... :)

    > Not that jsMath is not a
    > great, easy-to-use library,


    I established that it is not.

    > but I am using it more dynamically than it
    > is intended to be so ... actually, some work remains as you'll see from
    > occasional misplaced math or mis-sized containers.


    No I won't.

    >
    > Anyway, should be a much nicer year in Algebra for kids everywhere.


    I doubt it.

    >
    > Thx again to the folks in comp.lang.lisp who turned me on to qooxdoo and
    > jsMath,


    LOL. Why would you ask LISP-ers to recommend browser scripts? You
    got what you deserved.

    > and the folks in comp.lang.javascript who did absolutely nothing
    > to help except entertain me during the rough bits. :)
    >


    Clearly you'll never learn. :(
     
    David Mark, Jul 31, 2010
    #3
  4. Kenneth Tilton

    David Mark Guest

    On Jul 30, 10:55 pm, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > re the "blank" keys issue Mr. Streater reported, I have had another such
    > report with screenshot and now notice a telltale pixel at the very top
    > of the buttons.


    Oops, trouble in "paradise". :)

    > This is my unresolved issue with getting positioning
    > info from jsMath so I can accurately position those things within
    > qooxdoo widgets: the character is there, it's just positioned outside
    > the widget.


    Ah, that's a shame. If only you'd use real buttons.

    >
    > Hmmm. Maybe this is a qooxdoo issue.


    Very likely suspect.

    > They have an Html widget for raw
    > HTML.


    Again with that. Why would you use an "HTML widget" to write HTML.
    The very idea is mind-boggling. Do they also have a "CSS widget" and
    a "JS widget"?

    > Seems to me it should accept responsibility for displaying all the
    > HTML absent any misguided directives from moi-self.


    Seems to me that you have abdicated responsibility for tasks that you
    don't know how to do to others who are also without a clue. That's
    certainly misguided (but a popular approach in Web development).

    >
    > dig dig dig....


    You'll be in China before this is over. :)

    And enough with the qooxdoo diary entries. They are obviously of no
    interest to this group.
     
    David Mark, Jul 31, 2010
    #4
  5. David Mark wrote:
    > On Jul 30, 10:55 pm, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    >> re the "blank" keys issue Mr. Streater reported, I have had another such
    >> report with screenshot and now notice a telltale pixel at the very top
    >> of the buttons.

    >
    > Oops, trouble in "paradise". :)


    Yes, I am ruined. All is lost*. I thought this would make you happy,
    which is why I shared it.

    * Not.

    >
    >> This is my unresolved issue with getting positioning
    >> info from jsMath so I can accurately position those things within
    >> qooxdoo widgets: the character is there, it's just positioned outside
    >> the widget.

    >
    > Ah, that's a shame. If only you'd use real buttons.


    Actually, I think this is exactly /why/ I am not writing my own html.
    But to use jsMath I will have to make it work within the qooxdoo
    framework. Pray for me.

    >
    >> Hmmm. Maybe this is a qooxdoo issue.

    >
    > Very likely suspect.


    I'll be sure to report back (as if you had any doubt).

    >
    >> They have an Html widget for raw
    >> HTML.

    >
    > Again with that. Why would you use an "HTML widget" to write HTML.
    > The very idea is mind-boggling. Do they also have a "CSS widget" and
    > a "JS widget"?


    What is mind-boggling is your density. Move over, osmium! Aside from
    qooxdoo's speed and quality, its big win is that one need not do
    html/css. Unless of course one wants to, in which case one trots out the
    qx.ui.embed.Html widget.

    My guess (based on inspection of jsMath-generated html is that, for
    things with interesting vertical positioning issues such as fractions,
    jsMath is positioning stuff at a negative vertical offset (if up is
    negative in html-land) and the qooxdoo widget is not allowing that. But
    I /am/ guessing.


    >
    >> Seems to me it should accept responsibility for displaying all the
    >> HTML absent any misguided directives from moi-self.

    >
    > Seems to me that you have abdicated responsibility for tasks that you
    > don't know how to do to others who are also without a clue. That's
    > certainly misguided (but a popular approach in Web development).


    You say "abdicate", I say "standing on the shoulders". As for "without a
    clue", they have done a lot more with JS than you have based on your two
    sites. You might want to take a break from Usenet and write some more
    code, maybe you could have me as a user some day.

    >
    >> dig dig dig....

    >
    > You'll be in China before this is over. :)
    >
    > And enough with the qooxdoo diary entries. They are obviously of no
    > interest to this group.


    Sorry, I did not realize this was your newsgroup... hang on...

    kt

    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Jul 31, 2010
    #5
  6. David Mark wrote:
    > On Jul 30, 8:13 pm, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    >> Weird radio group behavior when one used a radio item that was a complex
    >> widget itself.

    >
    > I could guess what that means, but I don't have time to speculate
    > about qooxdoo.
    >
    >> Dig dig dig... aha! I had noticed they had cocked things
    >> up by not letting the complex item have a "model" property, and guess
    >> where the problem originated?

    >
    > See above.
    >
    >> The neat thing is I could then go here:
    >>
    >> http://demo.qooxdoo.org/current/playground/#

    >
    > I will guess that - whatever that is - I wouldn't find it "neat".
    >
    >> Recreate the problem, and then post a link to it as an SPR!:
    >>
    >> http://tinyurl.com/296hdjg

    >
    > Great.
    >
    >> Click away from the complex item and then try to reselect it. No dice.

    >
    > You crapped out. Hate to say I told you so...


    I was too subtle. There was no trouble, I said that just to get your
    hopes up. There was a bug in qooxdoo, I reported it and they fixed it a
    few minutes later since the fix was a no-brainer.

    It's called programming. You should try it some time.

    >
    >> I then added the model property in my code base and got on with pretty
    >> much finishing (in about six weeks full-time) the port of a desktop
    >> application to the web:

    >
    > Another patch? Upgrading that behemoth is sure to be that much more
    > fun.
    >
    >> http://teamalgebra.com/

    >
    > I've seen enough of that, thank you.


    Look again, there is more every week. Now you can level up (ask a
    teenager what that means) through Algebra. Lots of other improvements,
    too, though lots more to come. Not alpha yet, but approaching it.

    >
    >> Those six weeks included a refresher on qooxdoo as well as some new bits
    >> and even worse, making friends with jsMath.

    >
    > With friends like that... :)
    >
    >> Not that jsMath is not a
    >> great, easy-to-use library,

    >
    > I established that it is not.


    Aw, come on, he's brought TeX to the web, give it up for the guy. Maybe
    you'll like the successor: http://www.mathjax.org/

    >
    >> but I am using it more dynamically than it
    >> is intended to be so ... actually, some work remains as you'll see from
    >> occasional misplaced math or mis-sized containers.

    >
    > No I won't.
    >
    >> Anyway, should be a much nicer year in Algebra for kids everywhere.

    >
    > I doubt it.


    Doubt these: http://www.stuckonalgebra.com/fan_mail.html

    Two letters from teachers seeking out my software more than ten years
    after their last use because (a) they missed it and (b) they could find
    nothing like it. Excerpt to die for:

    "Of all of the software I have used in the evolution of school math and
    computers, your Algebra I Homework Tutor was the most elegant and
    practical."

    Eat your heart out! btw, if you surf the qooxdoo site each page refresh
    brings a new, similar encomium from their happy users: http://qooxdoo.org/

    Got anything like that for your library?

    >
    >> Thx again to the folks in comp.lang.lisp who turned me on to qooxdoo and
    >> jsMath,

    >
    > LOL. Why would you ask LISP-ers to recommend browser scripts?


    Lispers know everything; I would not buy a lawn mower without checking
    with them.

    kt

    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Jul 31, 2010
    #6
  7. Kenneth Tilton

    David Mark Guest

    On Jul 31, 6:39 am, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > David Mark wrote:
    > > On Jul 30, 10:55 pm, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > >> re the "blank" keys issue Mr. Streater reported, I have had another such
    > >> report with screenshot and now notice a telltale pixel at the very top
    > >> of the buttons.

    >
    > > Oops, trouble in "paradise".  :)

    >
    > Yes, I am ruined. All is lost*. I thought this would make you happy,
    > which is why I shared it.
    >


    Yes, well that's a shame. But if you think my smileys mean that I'm
    happy about something, you are mistaken.

    JFTR, my smiley's, frownies, winkies, etc. are usually meaningless
    mockery. Filter them out and the full meaning of the prose should
    still be clear to all but the uninitiated. However the lack of a
    smiley after a joke or ironic comment is one of my favored devices.

    I can't understand why the typical Usenet denizen is confused by my
    stuff. I often get the "are you serious?!" reaction, when it should
    be clear that I have serious contempt for anyone who takes Usenet
    seriously. ;)

    But I digress.

    > * Not.


    In all seriousness, I'd lose that device.

    >
    >
    >
    > >> This is my unresolved issue with getting positioning
    > >> info from jsMath so I can accurately position those things within
    > >> qooxdoo widgets: the character is there, it's just positioned outside
    > >> the widget.

    >
    > > Ah, that's a shame.  If only you'd use real buttons.

    >
    > Actually, I think this is exactly /why/ I am not writing my own html.


    So, because qooxdoo's faux buttons exhibit problems that standard HTML
    buttons do not share, you decided to eschew HTML for qooxdoo. Odd
    choice.

    > But to use jsMath I will have to make it work within the qooxdoo
    > framework.


    Your chosen math library requires qooxdoo?

    > Pray for me.


    Sure. Send me $100(US) per month and I'll put in a good word for you
    with the volcano God.

    >
    >
    >
    > >> Hmmm. Maybe this is a qooxdoo issue.

    >
    > > Very likely suspect.

    >
    > I'll be sure to report back (as if you had any doubt).


    I don't doubt it, but I wish you wouldn't. You are simply wasting
    time and space.

    >
    >
    >
    > >> They have an Html widget for raw
    > >> HTML.

    >
    > > Again with that.  Why would you use an "HTML widget" to write HTML.
    > > The very idea is mind-boggling.  Do they also have a "CSS widget" and
    > > a "JS widget"?

    >
    > What is mind-boggling is your density.


    Destiny?

    > Move over, osmium!


    Who?

    > Aside from
    > qooxdoo's speed and quality, its big win is that one need not do
    > html/css.


    Right, well we've been over that. The losses just keep piling up, but
    you are too deluded to see it.

    > Unless of course one wants to, in which case one trots out the
    > qx.ui.embed.Html widget.


    In which case their app will break down and have to be destroyed. :)

    >
    > My guess (based on inspection of jsMath-generated html is that, for
    > things with interesting vertical positioning issues such as fractions,
    > jsMath is positioning stuff at a negative vertical offset (if up is
    > negative in html-land) and the qooxdoo widget is not allowing that.


    Sounds like a match made in heaven.

    > But I /am/ guessing.


    The issue was never in doubt.

    >
    >
    >
    > >> Seems to me it should accept responsibility for displaying all the
    > >> HTML absent any misguided directives from moi-self.

    >
    > > Seems to me that you have abdicated responsibility for tasks that you
    > > don't know how to do to others who are also without a clue.  That's
    > > certainly misguided (but a popular approach in Web development).

    >
    > You say "abdicate", I say "standing on the shoulders".


    ....of midgets.

    > As for "without a
    > clue", they have done a lot more with JS than you have based on your two
    > sites.


    You don't build sites with JS, Kenny. Oh wait... :)

    > You might want to take a break from Usenet and write some more
    > code, maybe you could have me as a user some day.


    You really are out of it, aren't you?

    >
    >
    >
    > >> dig dig dig....

    >
    > > You'll be in China before this is over.  :)

    >
    > > And enough with the qooxdoo diary entries.  They are obviously of no
    > > interest to this group.

    >
    > Sorry, I did not realize this was your newsgroup... hang on...


    There have been a lot of complaints from the tenants.
     
    David Mark, Jul 31, 2010
    #7
  8. On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 at 20:13:13, in comp.lang.javascript, Kenneth Tilton
    wrote:

    <snip>
    > http://teamalgebra.com/

    <snip>

    Still very slow to load.

    Training center, Numeric Fractions, Adding and Subtracting :
    The numbers in the boxes are only partly visible - just the bottom
    quarter of the bottom number.

    Is this the library problem you were talking about ?

    John
    --
    John Harris
     
    John G Harris, Jul 31, 2010
    #8
  9. On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote:

    > http://teamalgebra.com/


    Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard...

    When I type "g=mc2==" on the [unbookmarkable tab], I get
    "G0MC200" (and the "2" also triggers a browser shortcut).
    And there are heaps of other peculiarities on that site.


    /Nisse
     
    Nisse Engström, Jul 31, 2010
    #9
  10. Nisse Engström wrote:
    > On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
    >
    >> http://teamalgebra.com/

    >
    > Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard...


    Or unsupported browser or both, but...

    >
    > When I type "g=mc2==" on the [unbookmarkable tab],


    Yeah, I hate that. I suppose I could find a workaround but not sure it
    matters to my app.

    > I get
    > "G0MC200" (and the "2" also triggers a browser shortcut).


    Re the latter, yeah, I need to get that preventDefault back in there in
    re the shortcut.

    Anyway, I am making headway on the jsMath and can confirm the "mssing
    keys" phenomenon. My test of "without installed TeX fonts" was flawed,
    but that is sorted out now. I am actually developing now without TeX
    fonts installed. Next release later today will work /unless/ TeX fonts
    are installed (but I think I can make it work both ways with a quick
    hack, deeper fix in a day or seven).

    kt


    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Jul 31, 2010
    #10
  11. John G Harris wrote:
    > On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 at 20:13:13, in comp.lang.javascript, Kenneth Tilton
    > wrote:
    >
    > <snip>
    >> http://teamalgebra.com/

    > <snip>
    >
    > Still very slow to load.


    I need numbers!! Recently frickin WordPad on MS took ten seconds to
    bring up the "Save As..." dialog. In user mode I went <sigh>, in
    software critique mode I would scream "Death to Microsoft!". Louder than
    usual, I mean.

    Also browsers and geographical locations and... to be honest, I
    sometimes see slow loads, then I reset my browser and all is well. My
    Lisp server might be being stupid.

    >
    > Training center, Numeric Fractions, Adding and Subtracting :
    > The numbers in the boxes are only partly visible - just the bottom
    > quarter of the bottom number.
    >
    > Is this the library problem you were talking about ?


    Yep. Not sure if it is qooxdoo, jsMath, or me.

    jsMath expects to be generating Html embedded in a pile of raw HTML
    written by David Mark, not a qooxdoo qx.ui.embed.Html widget programmed
    by me. Somewhere from to three of us (me, jsMath, and qooxdoo) is
    fucking up.

    I blame Mark.

    kt


    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Jul 31, 2010
    #11
  12. Kenneth Tilton

    David Mark Guest

    On Jul 31, 2:36 pm, Nisse Engström <> wrote:
    > On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
    > >    http://teamalgebra.com/

    >
    > Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard...


    That's as maybe, but the culprit here is likely Kenny's flaky app.

    >
    > When I type "g=mc2==" on the [unbookmarkable tab],


    That I don't mind as I don't think tabbed interfaces should mimic
    navigation. They should persist their state though (e.g. with
    cookies, local storage, etc.)

    > I get
    > "G0MC200" (and the "2" also triggers a browser shortcut).
    > And there are heaps of other peculiarities on that site.
    >


    Not unsurprising and it will require debugging a meg of dubious JS to
    track them down.
     
    David Mark, Jul 31, 2010
    #12
  13. Kenneth Tilton

    David Mark Guest

    On Jul 31, 3:03 pm, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > Nisse Engström wrote:
    > > On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote:

    >
    > >>    http://teamalgebra.com/

    >
    > > Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard...

    >
    > Or unsupported browser or both, but...


    How do you quantify what you "support" with a browser sniffing
    framework like qooxdoo? Do you just take their word for it?

    And I believe Nisse is using the latest Opera.

    >
    >
    >
    > > When I type "g=mc2==" on the [unbookmarkable tab],

    >
    > Yeah, I hate that. I suppose I could find a workaround but not sure it
    > matters to my app.
    >
    > > I get
    > > "G0MC200" (and the "2" also triggers a browser shortcut).

    >
    > Re the latter, yeah, I need to get that preventDefault back in there in
    > re the shortcut.


    Which may or may not be effective.

    >
    > Anyway, I am making headway on the jsMath and can confirm the "mssing
    > keys" phenomenon. My test of "without installed TeX fonts" was flawed,
    > but that is sorted out now. I am actually developing now without TeX
    > fonts installed. Next release later today will work /unless/ TeX fonts
    > are installed (but I think I can make it work both ways with a quick
    > hack, deeper fix in a day or seven).
    >


    Or seventy, by which time qooxdoo will have released a new version to
    "support" the latest browsers and all of your patches will have to be
    redone.

    You are on a treadmill, Kenny. You really should learn HTML, CSS and
    JS before trying to write a Web application. Basically, you are
    trying to do algebra before you've learned basic arithmetic. ;)
     
    David Mark, Jul 31, 2010
    #13
  14. David Mark wrote:
    > On Jul 31, 2:36 pm, Nisse Engström <> wrote:
    >> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
    >>> http://teamalgebra.com/

    >> Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard...

    >
    > That's as maybe, but the culprit here is likely Kenny's flaky app.
    >
    >> When I type "g=mc2==" on the [unbookmarkable tab],

    >
    > That I don't mind as I don't think tabbed interfaces should mimic
    > navigation. They should persist their state though (e.g. with
    > cookies, local storage, etc.)
    >
    >> I get
    >> "G0MC200" (and the "2" also triggers a browser shortcut).
    >> And there are heaps of other peculiarities on that site.
    >>

    >
    > Not unsurprising and it will require debugging a meg of dubious JS to
    > track them down.


    Let's see what the browser/engine is first. Team qooxdoo seems to have
    run up the white flag on Opera key events. My investors (me) are
    prepared to lose that market. Of course if Mr. Mark can provide a
    /universal/ HTML API for key events I'll just load his code and embed my
    client code that uses it in a qx.ui.embed.Html widget and be singing his
    praises too.


    kt

    I waded thru more than a little qooxdoo code to determine they had left
    the model property off the RadioGroupBox widget. Doing so was not the
    end of the world. Sorry. k


    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Jul 31, 2010
    #14
  15. David Mark wrote:
    > On Jul 31, 3:03 pm, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    >> Nisse Engström wrote:
    >>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
    >>>> http://teamalgebra.com/
    >>> Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard...

    >> Or unsupported browser or both, but...

    >
    > How do you quantify what you "support" with a browser sniffing
    > framework like qooxdoo? Do you just take their word for it?


    You lost me there. Are you saying their browser-sniffing can guess
    wrong? On what percent of users? Hint.

    >
    > And I believe Nisse is using the latest Opera.


    Opera? A tragedy, yes? From qooxdoo:

    "Opera issues
    Opera is the most broken browser concerning keyboard events. It supports
    enough to use the keyboard for navigation but complex key commands
    cannot be detected.

    All key combinations containing the Alt key cannot be detected.
    The modifier flags are only set in keypress events. This makes
    qx.client.Command in Opera unable to catch most interesting keyboard
    shortcuts.
    Opera sets only the keyCode property of the DOM event. Because of that,
    it is not possible to decide if the code in keypress events is a key
    code or a char code. Since both codes may overlap, collisions may occur.
    In need for a consistent solution, the current key handler
    implementation always prefers the special keys over the normal keys. For
    example, “s” and “F5” both have a code of 115 in Opera. In this case
    qooxdoo would prefer “F5” over the “s” key."

    >> Re the latter, yeah, I need to get that preventDefault back in there in
    >> re the shortcut.

    >
    > Which may or may not be effective.


    Well, it might not be live yet, but I have code in the dev version now
    that refuses to handle anything but webkit, gecko, and ie.

    I'll keep plugging on this issue, but what happened was I tossed the
    prevent handling at a low level then later tossed all handling of what
    qooxdoo calls keypress. The former was OK, the latter should have been
    to still do the preventdefault but no more (ie. no round-trip to server
    which was ignoring those events anyway).

    >
    >> Anyway, I am making headway on the jsMath and can confirm the "mssing
    >> keys" phenomenon. My test of "without installed TeX fonts" was flawed,
    >> but that is sorted out now. I am actually developing now without TeX
    >> fonts installed. Next release later today will work /unless/ TeX fonts
    >> are installed (but I think I can make it work both ways with a quick
    >> hack, deeper fix in a day or seven).
    >>

    >
    > Or seventy, by which time qooxdoo will have released a new version to
    > "support" the latest browsers and all of your patches will have to be
    > redone.


    Are you hoping it is seventy, or hoping I get it sorted out tonight?

    >
    > You are on a treadmill, Kenny. You really should learn HTML, CSS and
    > JS before trying to write a Web application. Basically, you are
    > trying to do algebra before you've learned basic arithmetic. ;)


    One thing you do not seem to be coming up to speed on as quickly as I
    thought you might is that I understand fully the trade-offs one
    undertakes when adopting a library such that (a) in most cases one
    indeed does not want to adopt a library but (b) in exceptional cases
    (such as qooxdoo and jsMath) the added value of the library hugely
    exceeds the effort that will be needed to get along with them.

    As a corollary, you seem unaware that I am Mr. NIH, not as a bug, but as
    a feature. And I am using qooxdoo and jsMath ecstatically over how fast
    I have brought a wysiwyg math editor to the web.

    Is your brain nothing but one great honking anti-library neuron?

    kt

    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Jul 31, 2010
    #15
  16. Kenneth Tilton

    David Mark Guest

    On Jul 31, 6:00 pm, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > David Mark wrote:
    > > On Jul 31, 2:36 pm, Nisse Engström <> wrote:
    > >> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
    > >>>    http://teamalgebra.com/
    > >> Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard...

    >
    > > That's as maybe, but the culprit here is likely Kenny's flaky app.

    >
    > >> When I type "g=mc2==" on the [unbookmarkable tab],

    >
    > > That I don't mind as I don't think tabbed interfaces should mimic
    > > navigation.  They should persist their state though (e.g. with
    > > cookies, local storage, etc.)

    >
    > >> I get
    > >> "G0MC200" (and the "2" also triggers a browser shortcut).
    > >> And there are heaps of other peculiarities on that site.

    >
    > > Not unsurprising and it will require debugging a meg of dubious JS to
    > > track them down.

    >
    > Let's see what the browser/engine is first.


    I already told you.

    > Team qooxdoo seems to have
    > run up the white flag on Opera key events.


    They can't even make it work *with* browser sniffing? Some team
    you've got there. :(

    > My investors (me) are
    > prepared to lose that market.


    Odd for European developers to give up on a browser that is very
    popular in Europe. Lately it has gotten a boost from MS offering it
    as an IE alternative.

    > Of course if Mr. Mark can provide a
    > /universal/ HTML API for key events I'll just load his code and embed my
    > client code that uses it in a qx.ui.embed.Html widget and be singing his
    > praises too.


    Do you read this group or just post? I've long since tamed the
    keyboard (and yes, that includes Opera). But I don't write add-ons
    for qooxdoo.

    [...]

    >
    > I waded thru more than a little qooxdoo code to determine they had left
    > the model property off the RadioGroupBox widget.


    That's too bad.

    > Doing so was not the
    > end of the world. Sorry. k
    >


    Nothing is the end of world, is it? But one problem after another
    indicates you would have been better off without qooxdoo.
     
    David Mark, Aug 1, 2010
    #16
  17. Kenneth Tilton

    David Mark Guest

    On Jul 31, 6:16 pm, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > David Mark wrote:
    > > On Jul 31, 3:03 pm, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > >> Nisse Engström wrote:
    > >>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
    > >>>>    http://teamalgebra.com/
    > >>> Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard...
    > >> Or unsupported browser or both, but...

    >
    > > How do you quantify what you "support" with a browser sniffing
    > > framework like qooxdoo?  Do you just take their word for it?

    >
    > You lost me there. Are you saying their browser-sniffing can guess
    > wrong? On what percent of users? Hint.
    >
    >
    >
    > > And I believe Nisse is using the latest Opera.

    >
    > Opera? A tragedy, yes? From qooxdoo:


    No. It's an excellent browser, despite a few quirks.

    >
    > "Opera issues
    > Opera is the most broken browser concerning keyboard events.


    What does that mean? It can't handle typing "g=mc2=="? I assure you
    it can.

    > It supports
    > enough to use the keyboard for navigation but complex key commands
    > cannot be detected.


    That's a design mistake on the part of the qooxdoo developers and they
    are attempting to deflect the blame to Opera.

    >
    > All key combinations containing the Alt key cannot be detected.


    Rubbish. And why would they attempt to do something so silly?

    > The modifier flags are only set in keypress events.


    Also rubbish. They are making up wild stories. And what if it were
    true?

    > This makes
    > qx.client.Command in Opera unable to catch most interesting keyboard
    > shortcuts.


    You don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about (no
    matter what your definition of "interesting").

    > Opera sets only the keyCode property of the DOM event.


    As with the previous nonsense, that's completely and demonstrably
    *false*. In other words, they don't know what they are talking about
    either.

    > Because of that,
    > it is not possible to decide if the code in keypress events is a key
    > code or a char code.


    Also pure fantasy. You really don't read this group at all, do you?
    Bad form.

    > Since both codes may overlap, collisions may occur.


    Nope.

    > In need for a consistent solution, the current key handler
    > implementation always prefers the special keys over the normal keys.


    Technobabble intended to misdirect inexperienced (and gullible)
    developers.

    > For
    > example, “s” and “F5” both have a code of 115 in Opera. In this case
    > qooxdoo would prefer “F5” over the “s” key."


    LOL. You have bet on the proverbial bad pony.

    >
    > >> Re the latter, yeah, I need to get that preventDefault back in there in
    > >> re the shortcut.

    >
    > > Which may or may not be effective.

    >
    > Well, it might not be live yet, but I have code in the dev version now
    > that refuses to handle anything but webkit, gecko, and ie.


    I highly doubt that, considering how many variations of Gecko and
    Webkit exist. But, even if it were true, it's still a failure.

    >
    > I'll keep plugging on this issue, but what happened was I tossed the
    > prevent handling at a low level then later tossed all handling of what
    > qooxdoo calls keypress.


    I suggest you toss the whole thing. ;)

    > The former was OK, the latter should have been
    > to still do the preventdefault but no more (ie. no round-trip to server
    > which was ignoring those events anyway).


    You can't do round-trips on every key event. As you've been told
    repeatedly, it's pure lunacy (and doomed to fail).

    >
    >
    >
    > >> Anyway, I am making headway on the jsMath and can confirm the "mssing
    > >> keys" phenomenon. My test of "without installed TeX fonts" was flawed,
    > >> but that is sorted out now. I am actually developing now without TeX
    > >> fonts installed. Next release later today will work /unless/ TeX fonts
    > >> are installed (but I think I can make it work both ways with a quick
    > >> hack, deeper fix in a day or seven).

    >
    > > Or seventy, by which time qooxdoo will have released a new version to
    > > "support" the latest browsers and all of your patches will have to be
    > > redone.

    >
    > Are you hoping it is seventy, or hoping I get it sorted out tonight?


    I really couldn't care less. Have I not mentioned that? I only
    comment on your serialized career suicide note to caution others.

    >
    >
    >
    > > You are on a treadmill, Kenny.  You really should learn HTML, CSS and
    > > JS before trying to write a Web application.  Basically, you are
    > > trying to do algebra before you've learned basic arithmetic.  ;)

    >
    > One thing you do not seem to be coming up to speed on as quickly as I
    > thought you might is that I understand fully the trade-offs one
    > undertakes when adopting a library such that (a) in most cases one
    > indeed does not want to adopt a library but (b) in exceptional cases
    > (such as qooxdoo and jsMath) the added value of the library hugely
    > exceeds the effort that will be needed to get along with them.


    Considering how confused the qooxdoo developers are about basic
    keyboard handling, it's hard to see their wares as anything
    approaching exceptional.

    >
    > As a corollary, you seem unaware that I am Mr. NIH, not as a bug, but as
    > a feature.


    Translation?

    > And I am using qooxdoo and jsMath ecstatically over how fast
    > I have brought a wysiwyg math editor to the web.


    You are hopelessly deluded.

    >
    > Is your brain nothing but one great honking anti-library neuron?


    We've been over that. Even a child could understand that eschewing
    obviously bad libraries does not indicate any sort of general "anti-
    library" sentiment.
     
    David Mark, Aug 1, 2010
    #17
  18. David Mark wrote:
    > On Jul 31, 6:00 pm, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    > Do you read this group or just post?


    Just post. This NG is not really up to snuff, and deals mostly with
    stuff I let qooxdoo worry about.

    > I've long since tamed the
    > keyboard (and yes, that includes Opera).


    Cool, I'll check out your code.

    > But I don't write add-ons
    > for qooxdoo.


    You might recall qooxdoo allows one to embed raw Html/js.

    >> I waded thru more than a little qooxdoo code to determine they had left
    >> the model property off the RadioGroupBox widget.

    >
    > That's too bad.
    >
    >> Doing so was not the
    >> end of the world. Sorry. k
    >>

    >
    > Nothing is the end of world, is it? But one problem after another
    > indicates you would have been better off without qooxdoo.


    No, "one problem after another" was jQuery, Dojo, and YUI and the code
    was impossible to follow. qooxdoo actually started off with a problem
    (over busy datagrid (does My Library have a datagrid?)) which was
    insanely easy to fix and has only occasionally had issues while bringing
    a rather hefty desktop application to the Web:

    http://teamalgebra.com/

    kt

    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Aug 1, 2010
    #18
  19. David Mark wrote:
    > On Jul 31, 6:16 pm, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:


    >> Opera is the most broken browser concerning keyboard events.

    >
    > What does that mean? It can't handle typing "g=mc2=="? I assure you
    > it can.


    The question is what key event application is made available to the
    client in the general case. I'll check it out now that I have the thing
    somewhat gracefully coping whether or not TeX fonts are installed.


    >
    > You can't do round-trips on every key event. As you've been told
    > repeatedly, it's pure lunacy (and doomed to fail).


    ....and working:

    http://teamalgebra.com/

    Go figure. By the way, I have not even made an effort yet to optimize
    the round-trips, the editor is so responsive.

    You seem unable to absorb the fact that this is an Algebra tutoring
    platform, not a type-touching trainer. But I am happy to remind you as
    needed.

    >> As a corollary, you seem unaware that I am Mr. NIH, not as a bug, but as
    >> a feature.

    >
    > Translation?


    Generally you are right: libraries are more trouble than they are worth.
    qooxdoo and jsMath are clear exceptions.

    >
    >> And I am using qooxdoo and jsMath ecstatically over how fast
    >> I have brought a wysiwyg math editor to the web.

    >
    > You are hopelessly deluded.
    >
    >> Is your brain nothing but one great honking anti-library neuron?

    >
    > We've been over that. Even a child could understand that eschewing
    > obviously bad libraries does not indicate any sort of general "anti-
    > library" sentiment.


    I guess not since you are pushing a competitor library /and/ selling
    your services as a qooxdoo developer.

    kt

    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Aug 1, 2010
    #19
  20. David Mark wrote:
    > On Jul 31, 6:00 pm, Kenneth Tilton <> wrote:
    >> David Mark wrote:
    >>> On Jul 31, 2:36 pm, Nisse Engström <> wrote:
    >>>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
    >>>>> http://teamalgebra.com/
    >>>> Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard...
    >>> That's as maybe, but the culprit here is likely Kenny's flaky app.
    >>>> When I type "g=mc2==" on the [unbookmarkable tab],
    >>> That I don't mind as I don't think tabbed interfaces should mimic
    >>> navigation. They should persist their state though (e.g. with
    >>> cookies, local storage, etc.)
    >>>> I get
    >>>> "G0MC200" (and the "2" also triggers a browser shortcut).
    >>>> And there are heaps of other peculiarities on that site.
    >>> Not unsurprising and it will require debugging a meg of dubious JS to
    >>> track them down.

    >> Let's see what the browser/engine is first.

    >
    > I already told you.
    >
    >> Team qooxdoo seems to have
    >> run up the white flag on Opera key events.

    >
    > They can't even make it work *with* browser sniffing? Some team
    > you've got there. :(
    >
    >> My investors (me) are
    >> prepared to lose that market.

    >
    > Odd for European developers to give up on a browser that is very
    > popular in Europe. Lately it has gotten a boost from MS offering it
    > as an IE alternative.


    Yeah, it's going through the roof:

    http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

    2.1% and dropping from a high of 2.4 in December, 2008. Be still my
    beating heart. Glad I checked before seeing if I could make it work.

    kt

    --
    http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
    "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
    Macworld
     
    Kenneth Tilton, Aug 1, 2010
    #20
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