Question about frames

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Miss Jacky, Nov 23, 2004.

  1. Miss Jacky

    Miss Jacky Guest

    Hi. I am starting up a new web site and need some advice. I was
    wondering if you guys could tell me how I would be able to have frames.
    There's only two sections (25% and 75%)I already have the frames up. The
    left side is a short note thanking the visitor for coming. The right
    side has links to whatever I linked to. The problem I'm having is that
    everytime I click 'home' to go back to index.html, an extra frame pops
    up (the stuff that was previewed originally on the left). I was
    wondering how I could fix this problem. Any help would be greatly
    appreciated! Thanks.

    -Jackie.
     
    Miss Jacky, Nov 23, 2004
    #1
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  2. Miss Jacky

    rf Guest

    Miss Jacky wrote:

    > Hi.


    G'day.

    > I am starting up a new web site and need some advice.


    Fine. Don't use a WYSIWYDG editor and don't use frames :)

    > I was
    > wondering if you guys could tell me how I would be able to have frames.


    Don't.
    Go over to google and search for "frames are evil".

    > There's only two sections (25% and 75%)I already have the frames up. The
    > left side is a short note thanking the visitor for coming.


    Which will sit there forever taking up valuable real-estate?

    > The right
    > side has links to whatever I linked to. The problem I'm having is that
    > everytime I click 'home' to go back to index.html, an extra frame pops
    > up (the stuff that was previewed originally on the left). I was
    > wondering how I could fix this problem. Any help would be greatly
    > appreciated! Thanks.


    target="_top" in your home link?

    Without a URL it is hard to tell.

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Nov 23, 2004
    #2
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  3. Miss Jacky

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Previously in alt.html, Miss Jacky <> said:

    > Hi.


    G'day.

    > I am starting up a new web site and need some advice.


    No problem.

    > I was
    > wondering if you guys could tell me how I would be able to have frames.


    http://www.markparnell.com.au/articles/frames.php

    > The problem I'm having is that
    > everytime I click 'home' to go back to index.html, an extra frame pops
    > up


    target="_top"

    But not until you have read and understood the following:

    http://www.htmlhelp.com/design/frames/whatswrong.html
    http://html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil
    http://dorward.me.uk/www/frames/
    http://www.google.com/webmasters/2.html (see under "Your page uses
    frames")

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    "Never drink rum&coke whilst reading usenet" - rf 2004
     
    Mark Parnell, Nov 23, 2004
    #3
  4. Miss Jacky wrote:

    > Hi. I am starting up a new web site and need some advice. I was
    > wondering if you guys could tell me how I would be able to have frames.
    > There's only two sections (25% and 75%)I already have the frames up. The
    > left side is a short note thanking the visitor for coming. The right
    > side has links to whatever I linked to. The problem I'm having is that
    > everytime I click 'home' to go back to index.html, an extra frame pops
    > up (the stuff that was previewed originally on the left). I was
    > wondering how I could fix this problem. Any help would be greatly
    > appreciated! Thanks.


    You could (/should) assign names your frames and then use the target
    attribute in links, e.g. <a href="mypage.htm" target="body">. For the main
    page you might want to try target="_top".

    However, please _avoid_ frames. See the thread from 3:38 on November 15th.

    --
    Roy Schestowitz
    http://schestowitz.com
     
    Roy Schestowitz, Nov 23, 2004
    #4
  5. Miss Jacky

    Neal Guest

    Miss Jacky wrote:

    > The left side is a short note thanking the visitor for coming.


    For what reason does this need a frame? Can't it be put in the regular
    content?

    Sorry, but this isn't really a suitable reason to use a frame.
     
    Neal, Nov 23, 2004
    #5
  6. Miss Jacky

    neredbojias Guest

    Without quill or qualm, Miss Jacky quothed:

    > Hi. I am starting up a new web site and need some advice. I was
    > wondering if you guys could tell me how I would be able to have frames.


    Oh goody! Another framer! Don't expect a bunch of well-wishes and
    kudos, etc., here because these guys (and broads) are prejudiced.
    However, my motto is "Frames are your Friends".

    > There's only two sections (25% and 75%)I already have the frames up. The
    > left side is a short note thanking the visitor for coming. The right
    > side has links to whatever I linked to. The problem I'm having is that
    > everytime I click 'home' to go back to index.html, an extra frame pops
    > up (the stuff that was previewed originally on the left). I was
    > wondering how I could fix this problem. Any help would be greatly
    > appreciated! Thanks.


    Post a url and I'll fix it for you free of charge.

    (PS: Css sucks.)

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    neredbojias, Nov 24, 2004
    #6
  7. Miss Jacky

    Duende Guest

    While sitting in a puddle neredbojias scribbled in the mud:

    >
    > (PS: Css sucks.)
    >


    Great, where do I stick it in?

    --
    Avoid reality at all costs.
     
    Duende, Nov 24, 2004
    #7
  8. Miss Jacky

    Richard Guest

    Miss Jacky wrote:

    > Hi. I am starting up a new web site and need some advice. I was
    > wondering if you guys could tell me how I would be able to have frames.
    > There's only two sections (25% and 75%)I already have the frames up. The
    > left side is a short note thanking the visitor for coming. The right
    > side has links to whatever I linked to. The problem I'm having is that
    > everytime I click 'home' to go back to index.html, an extra frame pops
    > up (the stuff that was previewed originally on the left). I was
    > wondering how I could fix this problem. Any help would be greatly
    > appreciated! Thanks.


    > -Jackie.


    Frames are out.....CSS is IN!
    You can do more with CSS and not have the problems frames create.
    You can create a multitude of "pages" that get shown as needed and all load
    at the same time.

    I'd forget that left side as a thank you thingy and put something more
    useful in it like a good navigation bar.
    In CSS, that would remain in place while the remainder changes as desired.

    You learned html, now complement it with CSS.
    I learned. You can too.
     
    Richard, Nov 24, 2004
    #8
  9. Miss Jacky

    neredbojias Guest

    Without quill or qualm, Duende quothed:

    > While sitting in a puddle neredbojias scribbled in the mud:
    >
    > >
    > > (PS: Css sucks.)
    > >

    >
    > Great, where do I stick it in?


    If the w3c would have approached the problem from the correct angle in
    the first place there would be no hole in which to insert anything.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    neredbojias, Nov 24, 2004
    #9
  10. On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:26:53 -0600, Richard <Anonymous@127.001> wrote:

    > Miss Jacky wrote:
    >
    >> Hi. I am starting up a new web site and need some advice. I was
    >> wondering if you guys could tell me how I would be able to have frames.

    >
    > Frames are out...
    >


    No, they are not. They are very useful in certain situations.

    > ..CSS is IN!
    >


    It's not IN at all. It is just a very efficient way to create and maintain
    presentation and layout for you pages if rendered in amodern graphical
    browser.

    > You can do more with CSS
    >


    Can yuo substantiate that claim? Can you for instance, create a fixed top
    and left column with valid HTML 4.01 strict, CSS2.1 and rendered in
    standards compliant mode that works cross browser (including the ancient
    browser IE6)?

    > and not have the problems frames create.
    >


    If frames are done properly, there are no problems. As always it is the
    designer/developer of a site that has to apply the chosen technique
    properly and with frames it is certainly more easy to do it wrong than
    without frames, but that is no excuse.

    > You can create a multitude of "pages" that get shown as needed and all
    > load at the same time.
    >


    I am not sure what you are saying here? Why would anyone want a multitude
    of "page" (what's with the quotes?) load at the same time?

    > I'd forget that left side as a thank you thingy and put something more
    > useful in it like a good navigation bar.
    > In CSS, that would remain in place while the remainder changes as
    > desired.
    >


    As it does with frames.

    Don't get me wrond. I don't like frames any more than you do, but throwing
    around unargumented claims is not likely going to convince anyone that
    they should grow a dislike for them too (or atleast some healthy
    suspicion).

    --
    Weblog | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html>
    Webontwerp | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html>
    Zweefvliegen | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html>
     
    Barbara de Zoete, Nov 24, 2004
    #10
  11. Miss Jacky

    rf Guest

    Barbara de Zoete wrote:

    [frames argument]

    You are new here, are you not? At least I have not seen your handle until a
    few days ago, when we had our brief, er, discussion about advice for free
    :)

    You will find that the regulars here have a zero tolerance policy against
    frames. Everything you say that you might think is good about frames can and
    will be countered with the appropriate negative. That usually includes the
    damned iframe element.

    FWIW a brief history of frames (if you are not aware):

    Frames were invented by Netcape sometime in the last century. Netscape
    announced their invention with fanfare and with a brand new web site using
    these "wonderfull new frames". A totally new site, they produced, redesigned
    from the ground up with frames.

    About six months later Netscape totally redesigned their web site yet again.
    This time they Did Not Use Frames. They saw the enormous problems that
    frames created and abandoned the concept. Netscape have never used frames on
    their site again.

    If the inventor of the dreaded frame abandonded it after only six monthes
    (and that was six or ten years ago) then why would anybody these days use
    frames? Dare I use the word "draconian" :)

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Nov 24, 2004
    #11
  12. On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:45:14 GMT, rf <rf@.invalid> wrote:

    > Barbara de Zoete wrote:
    >
    > [frames argument]
    >
    > You are new here, are you not? At least I have not seen your handle
    > until a
    > few days ago, when we had our brief, er, discussion about advice for free
    > :)
    >


    Well, new as in active, yes. But I've lurked here for about a year and a
    half (as in some of the ciwa* groups and in ahc); how do you think I
    learned all I use for my site? :)

    > You will find that the regulars here have a zero tolerance policy against
    > frames.


    That is not really a good reason to skip the subject all together, is it?

    > Everything you say that you might think is good about frames can and
    > will be countered with the appropriate negative.


    So I have noticed.

    > That usually includes the damned iframe element.

    ^^^^^^

    I guess you're with the 'frames are evil' croud then? :)

    > FWIW a brief history of frames (if you are not aware):
    >


    I am aware of its history, but thanks for reminding me.

    This group is not about the www. It is about HTML. HTML gets used in a
    wide range of situations. I've seen office applications, html-based, that
    couldn't have been developed without frames. Good applications, well
    designed in all aspects I could think of, userfriendly, to be used only in
    a very specific and enclosed environment by trained people. I think there
    are situations where utilisation of frames is not only a legit thing to
    do, it is the best option to choose :-D :p

    <em>This does exclude any publication for the <strong><abbr
    title="*World*Wide*Web*">www</abbr></strong> however.</em>

    But that is just an opinion and has a value equal to other argumented
    opinions.


    --
    Weblog | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html>
    Webontwerp | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html>
    Zweefvliegen | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html>
     
    Barbara de Zoete, Nov 24, 2004
    #12
  13. Miss Jacky

    rf Guest

    Barbara de Zoete wrote:
    > On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:45:14 GMT, rf <rf@.invalid> wrote:


    > > You are new here, are you not? At least I have not seen your handle
    > > until a
    > > few days ago, when we had our brief, er, discussion about advice for

    free
    > > :)
    > >

    >
    > Well, new as in active, yes. But I've lurked here for about a year and a
    > half (as in some of the ciwa* groups and in ahc); how do you think I
    > learned all I use for my site? :)


    How could you possibly lurk here for that long and not resist chirping in?
    Bizarre :)

    > > You will find that the regulars here have a zero tolerance policy

    against
    > > frames.


    > That is not really a good reason to skip the subject all together, is it?


    Er, no. Er, yes. Er, what? Skip the subject? We are not skipping it. I am at
    least vehemenantly arguing against it.

    > > Everything you say that you might think is good about frames can and
    > > will be countered with the appropriate negative.


    > So I have noticed.
    >
    > > That usually includes the damned iframe element.

    > ^^^^^^
    >
    > I guess you're with the 'frames are evil' croud then? :)


    Absolutely. Bloody bastards they are. Hate em. Same with the iframe
    substitute of a vertically sized div with a scroll bar. Have you ever tried
    to scroll such a page with your mouse wheel? Bloody annoying to say the
    least :-(

    If you have been lurking here then you surely know my stance on this. I
    state it often enough.

    What is wrong with a simple page that I can scroll my viewport up and down
    upon. Why do authors insist on all sorts of Kewl things that *they* think
    might be good for themselves, never thinking about how bloody hard they make
    it for *me*, the viewer. Authors don't *use* a site. They write it. They
    look at *bits* of it, to find the spelling errors. They never try to *use*
    it because they know what is in it. They never try to read it from beginning
    to end. I know, I fell into a similar trap once. I now stand back and read
    word for word, aloud, every page I produce, as if I were a first time
    viewer. This is alpha testing. Find the mistakes before it goes to beta or,
    worse, to production.

    > > FWIW a brief history of frames (if you are not aware):


    > I am aware of its history, but thanks for reminding me.


    Just making sure. It pays to recount that history occasionally for the
    newbies.
    >
    > This group is not about the www.


    Ah, yes, it is. There is an FAQ somewhere that says it is. All of the usenet
    groups that have HTML or whatever in their name are about the web. Their
    FAQ's state that as well.

    Some of them specifically state that questions will be taken "in the context
    of the web, unless stated otherwise". Surely you know that. How many times
    have you seen a question blasted until the OP has bleated "it's for an
    intranet", and then everybody says "you should have stated that up front,
    you would have recieved entirely different answers"? I myself have typed
    that phrase in many times during your year of lurking :)

    > is about HTML. HTML gets used in a
    > wide range of situations. I've seen office applications, html-based, that
    > couldn't have been developed without frames. Good applications, well
    > designed in all aspects I could think of, userfriendly, to be used only in
    > a very specific and enclosed environment by trained people. I think there
    > are situations where utilisation of frames is not only a legit thing to
    > do, it is the best option to choose :-D :p


    Agreed. Indeed I have help systems written in HTML with frames that emulate
    the windows help system. Contents on the left, content on the right but they
    are *not* the web. They don't need to be bookmarked etc.

    This stuff is not web.

    If Miss Jacky had said "I am starting a new intranet help site" then your
    argument would hold. She did not. She said "new web site". Frames have no
    place on the web so, I suppose, all the above is OT :)
    >
    > But that is just an opinion and has a value equal to other argumented
    > opinions.


    Yep, and mine as well.

    Crikey, it's time for another beer. See ya ;-)

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Nov 24, 2004
    #13
  14. in alt.html, Barbara de Zoete wrote:
    > On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:26:53 -0600, Richard <Anonymous@127.001> wrote:
    >
    > > Miss Jacky wrote:
    > >
    > >> Hi. I am starting up a new web site and need some advice. I was
    > >> wondering if you guys could tell me how I would be able to have frames.

    > >
    > > Frames are out...
    > >

    >
    > No, they are not. They are very useful in certain situations.


    I have seen one, in 10 years I have been aware of HTML. Surprisingly it
    was this year. I don't remember the purpose though...

    (of course, thre was few years in start whitout frames...)

    > > ..CSS is IN!

    > It's not IN at all. It is just a very efficient way to create and maintain
    > presentation and layout for you pages if rendered in amodern graphical
    > browser.


    And


    > > You can do more with CSS
    > >

    >
    > Can yuo substantiate that claim?


    Easily

    > Can you for instance, create a fixed top
    > and left column with valid HTML 4.01 strict, CSS2.1 and rendered in
    > standards compliant mode that works cross browser (including the ancient
    > browser IE6)?


    Yes. But I have to cheat and use IE bugs...

    But I just hate fixed top and left columns, so I have not done that.

    > > and not have the problems frames create.
    > >

    >
    > If frames are done properly, there are no problems.


    There is. Search engines. Hard to say wich others, as you don't define
    proper way.

    > Don't get me wrond. I don't like frames any more than you do, but throwing
    > around unargumented claims is not likely going to convince anyone that
    > they should grow a dislike for them too (or atleast some healthy
    > suspicion).


    Only problem in his post was that he didn't include some nice frames are
    evil links. If he had, you would have needed to back up yourt claim, and
    for example show us one site that uses frames properly.

    --
    Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
     
    Lauri Raittila, Nov 24, 2004
    #14
  15. Miss Jacky

    Spartanicus Guest

    "rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote:

    >You will find that the regulars here have a zero tolerance policy against
    >frames.


    Anyone posing as the group's spokesman is most inappropriate imo.

    --
    Spartanicus
     
    Spartanicus, Nov 24, 2004
    #15
  16. Miss Jacky

    jake Guest

    In message <KKYod.46935$>, rf
    <rf@?.invalid> writes
    >Barbara de Zoete wrote:
    >
    >[frames argument]
    >

    [snip]

    >
    >You will find that the regulars here have a zero tolerance policy against
    >frames.

    [snip]
    >

    ............. I don't think so ............

    regards.

    --
    Jake
     
    jake, Nov 24, 2004
    #16
  17. Miss Jacky

    jake Guest

    In message <>, Lauri
    Raittila <> writes
    >in alt.html, Barbara de Zoete wrote:

    [snip]

    >
    >> Don't get me wrond. I don't like frames any more than you do, but throwing
    >> around unargumented claims is not likely going to convince anyone that
    >> they should grow a dislike for them too (or atleast some healthy
    >> suspicion).

    >
    >Only problem in his post was that he didn't include some nice frames are
    >evil links. If he had, you would have needed to back up yourt claim, and
    >for example show us one site that uses frames properly.
    >

    Visit the MSDN site if you want to see a reasonably good use of frames.

    regards.

    --
    Jake
     
    jake, Nov 24, 2004
    #17
  18. Miss Jacky

    Duende Guest

    While sitting in a puddle rf scribbled in the mud:

    >
    > You will find that the regulars here have a zero tolerance policy against
    > frames


    Frames are your friends. ;-)

    --
    Duende (irregular)
    Avoid reality at all costs.
     
    Duende, Nov 24, 2004
    #18
  19. Miss Jacky

    rf Guest

    Duende countered:
    > While sitting in a puddle rf scribbled in the mud:


    > > You will find that the regulars here have a zero tolerance policy

    against
    > > frames


    > Frames are your friends. ;-)


    Should have said "many of the regulars" shouldn't I :-(

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Nov 24, 2004
    #19
  20. On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:07:07 GMT, rf <rf@.invalid> wrote:

    > Duende countered:
    >> While sitting in a puddle rf scribbled in the mud:

    >
    >> > You will find that the regulars here have a zero tolerance policy

    > against
    >> > frames

    >
    >> Frames are your friends. ;-)

    >
    > Should have said "many of the regulars" shouldn't I :-(
    >


    Maybe. Or maybe just speak for yourself. That is what I try to do. I find
    it hard to give any credit to the argument 'it's not just me!' :)

    --
    Weblog | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html>
    Webontwerp | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html>
    Zweefvliegen | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html>
     
    Barbara de Zoete, Nov 24, 2004
    #20
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