Question on CSS alignment

Discussion in 'HTML' started by tshad, Jan 31, 2005.

  1. tshad

    tshad Guest

    I am setting up my style sheets and am curious about style.

    If I was going to set up all my text to vertically align on the bottom,
    would it be better to do it on the "tr" tag or the "td", or does it really
    matter?

    tr {
    vertical-align:bottom;
    }
    td {
    font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
    font-size: 10;
    text-decoration: none;
    vertical-align:bottom;
    }

    I had thought about putting it on the "tr" as that would cover the "th" as
    well. Or should I just put it on the "table" tag and just the change the
    ones that need to be different on the "td" level.

    Just looking for some opinions.

    Thanks,

    Tom
    tshad, Jan 31, 2005
    #1
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  2. tshad

    Steve Pugh Guest

    "tshad" <> wrote:

    >If I was going to set up all my text to vertically align on the bottom,
    >would it be better to do it on the "tr" tag or the "td", or does it really
    >matter?


    It has to be the td. vertical-align only applies to inline and
    table-cell elements and crucially is not inherited. See
    http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#propdef-vertical-align

    Steve

    --
    "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
    Steve Pugh, Jan 31, 2005
    #2
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  3. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Steve Pugh" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > "tshad" <> wrote:
    >
    >>If I was going to set up all my text to vertically align on the bottom,
    >>would it be better to do it on the "tr" tag or the "td", or does it really
    >>matter?

    >
    > It has to be the td. vertical-align only applies to inline and
    > table-cell elements and crucially is not inherited. See
    > http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#propdef-vertical-align


    That was what I want to see. TR does work, however. But that might be an
    anomaly. I know Table doesn't.

    What about Font-Family? Can I put that in the Table style, since I want all
    text to be Verdana?

    Thanks,

    Tom
    >
    > Steve
    >
    > --
    > "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    > I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
    >
    > Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
    tshad, Jan 31, 2005
    #3
  4. tshad

    Steve Pugh Guest

    "tshad" <> wrote:
    >"Steve Pugh" <> wrote in message
    >news:p...
    >> "tshad" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>If I was going to set up all my text to vertically align on the bottom,
    >>>would it be better to do it on the "tr" tag or the "td", or does it really
    >>>matter?

    >>
    >> It has to be the td. vertical-align only applies to inline and
    >> table-cell elements and crucially is not inherited. See
    >> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#propdef-vertical-align

    >
    >That was what I want to see. TR does work, however.


    Probably browsers allowing it because <tr valign="bottom"> was
    allowed. Either that or I missed something.

    >What about Font-Family?


    Yes, font-family inherits.

    >Can I put that in the Table style, since I want all
    >text to be Verdana?


    Bad idea. Check Google for the reasons why Verdana is a poor choice
    for author style sheets.

    Steve


    --
    "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
    Steve Pugh, Jan 31, 2005
    #4
  5. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Steve Pugh" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:...
    > "tshad" <> wrote:
    >>"Steve Pugh" <> wrote in message
    >>news:p...
    >>> "tshad" <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>If I was going to set up all my text to vertically align on the bottom,
    >>>>would it be better to do it on the "tr" tag or the "td", or does it
    >>>>really
    >>>>matter?
    >>>
    >>> It has to be the td. vertical-align only applies to inline and
    >>> table-cell elements and crucially is not inherited. See
    >>> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#propdef-vertical-align

    >>
    >>That was what I want to see. TR does work, however.

    >
    > Probably browsers allowing it because <tr valign="bottom"> was
    > allowed. Either that or I missed something.
    >
    >>What about Font-Family?

    >
    > Yes, font-family inherits.
    >
    >>Can I put that in the Table style, since I want all
    >>text to be Verdana?

    >
    > Bad idea. Check Google for the reasons why Verdana is a poor choice
    > for author style sheets.
    >


    I can't find anything bad about Verdana per se, but I can find some problems
    with Style Sheets (mainly the support of Browsers).

    Is there something wrong with Verdana?

    I don't use Verdana by itself, but the family:

    table {
    font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
    }

    I was using this one because my boss likes it.

    Also, I assume if I want to use the same family for all my sheets, I would
    need to put the font in both my "body" and "table" styles. Is that right?

    Thanks,

    Tom
    > Steve
    >
    >
    > --
    > "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    > I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
    >
    > Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
    tshad, Jan 31, 2005
    #5
  6. On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:50:25 GMT, tshad <> wrote:

    > "Steve Pugh" <> wrote in message
    > news:eek:...
    >
    >> "tshad" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> What about Font-Family?

    >>
    >> Yes, font-family inherits.
    >>
    >>> Can I put that in the Table style, since I want all
    >>> text to be Verdana?

    >>
    >> Bad idea. Check Google for the reasons why Verdana is a poor choice
    >> for author style sheets.
    >>

    > I can't find anything bad about Verdana per se, but I can find some problems
    > with Style Sheets (mainly the support of Browsers).
    >


    <http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22Don't+use+Verdana%22>

    >> --
    >> "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    >> I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor


    Please snip sigs by hand if your newsclient doesn't do that for you.


    --
    ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
    | weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
    | webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
    |zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
    `-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'
    Barbara de Zoete, Jan 31, 2005
    #6
  7. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Barbara de Zoete" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:pslhaxfyax5vgts@zoete_b...
    > On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:50:25 GMT, tshad <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> "Steve Pugh" <> wrote in message
    >> news:eek:...
    >>
    >>> "tshad" <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> What about Font-Family?
    >>>
    >>> Yes, font-family inherits.
    >>>
    >>>> Can I put that in the Table style, since I want all
    >>>> text to be Verdana?
    >>>
    >>> Bad idea. Check Google for the reasons why Verdana is a poor choice
    >>> for author style sheets.
    >>>

    >> I can't find anything bad about Verdana per se, but I can find some
    >> problems
    >> with Style Sheets (mainly the support of Browsers).
    >>

    >
    > <http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22Don't+use+Verdana%22>
    >
    >>> --
    >>> "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    >>> I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    >
    > Please snip sigs by hand if your newsclient doesn't do that for you.


    What's a "sig"?

    >
    >
    > --
    > ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
    > | weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
    > | webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
    > |zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
    > `-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'
    tshad, Jan 31, 2005
    #7
  8. tshad

    Steve Pugh Guest

    "tshad" <> wrote:
    >"Barbara de Zoete" <> wrote in message
    >news:eek:pslhaxfyax5vgts@zoete_b...
    >>
    >> Please snip sigs by hand if your newsclient doesn't do that for you.

    >
    >What's a "sig"?


    A signature. The section at the end of the message that is (usually)
    automatically added by the user's news client. It's separated from the
    main body of the message by "-- " and should not be included in any
    quoted material in a reply.

    --
    "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
    Steve Pugh, Jan 31, 2005
    #8
  9. On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:04:10 GMT, tshad <> wrote:

    > "Barbara de Zoete" <> wrote in message
    > news:eek:pslhaxfyax5vgts@zoete_b...
    >
    >> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:50:25 GMT, tshad <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> "Steve Pugh" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:eek:...
    >>>
    >>>> --
    >>>> "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    >>>> I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    >>
    >> Please snip sigs by hand if your newsclient doesn't do that for you.

    >
    > What's a "sig"?
    >


    A signature. A signature in a newsgroup message starts with [-- ] (dash dash
    space). This makes a proper newsclient cut it from the end of the message, so
    that the reply is neat and clean and not unnecessary long.

    If you use a newsclient that doesn't handle this [-- ] (dash dash space) very
    well, that is, it leaves the signature, sig in the reply, please delete those
    lines by hand.

    >> --
    >> ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.


    Again a sig. The above is my sig as the previous was Steve Pughs sig.




    --
    ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
    | weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
    | webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
    |zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
    `-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'
    Barbara de Zoete, Jan 31, 2005
    #9
  10. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Barbara de Zoete" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:pslhbp5ohx5vgts@zoete_b...
    > On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:04:10 GMT, tshad <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> "Barbara de Zoete" <> wrote in message
    >> news:eek:pslhaxfyax5vgts@zoete_b...
    >>
    >>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:50:25 GMT, tshad <>
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> "Steve Pugh" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:eek:...
    >>>>
    >>>>> --
    >>>>> "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    >>>>> I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
    >>>
    >>> Please snip sigs by hand if your newsclient doesn't do that for you.

    >>
    >> What's a "sig"?
    >>

    >
    > A signature. A signature in a newsgroup message starts with [-- ] (dash
    > dash space). This makes a proper newsclient cut it from the end of the
    > message, so that the reply is neat and clean and not unnecessary long.
    >
    > If you use a newsclient that doesn't handle this [-- ] (dash dash space)
    > very well, that is, it leaves the signature, sig in the reply, please
    > delete those lines by hand.
    >
    >>> --
    >>> ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.

    >
    > Again a sig. The above is my sig as the previous was Steve Pughs sig.
    >


    So I delete the persons signature (as I think I just did) that I am
    responding to? Everthing below the "--"?

    I am using Outlook express 6 for my browser. Is there a way to tell it to
    delete these?

    Tom
    tshad, Jan 31, 2005
    #10
  11. [OT] Re: Question on CSS alignment

    On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:33:45 GMT, tshad <> wrote:

    > "Barbara de Zoete" <> wrote in message
    > news:eek:pslhbp5ohx5vgts@zoete_b...
    >
    >> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:04:10 GMT, tshad <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> What's a "sig"?
    >>>

    >> A signature. A signature in a newsgroup message starts with [-- ] (dash
    >> dash space). This makes a proper newsclient cut it from the end of the
    >> message, so that the reply is neat and clean and not unnecessary long.
    >>
    >> If you use a newsclient that doesn't handle this [-- ] (dash dash space)
    >> very well, that is, it leaves the signature, sig in the reply, please
    >> delete those lines by hand.
    >>
    >>>> --
    >>>> ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.

    >>
    >> Again a sig. The above is my sig as the previous was Steve Pughs sig.
    >>

    > So I delete the persons signature (as I think I just did) that I am
    > responding to? Everthing below the "--"?
    >


    Well done.

    > I am using Outlook express 6 for my browser. Is there a way to tell it to
    > delete these?
    >


    I really wouldn't know. There was a fix for Outlook Express out there somewhere,
    but I don't recall what it does or what its name is. Sorry.

    You could always try a better client, like Thunderbird (free
    <http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/>) or Opera
    (<http://www.opera.com/>. There are many. With the last one, you get yourself a
    decent browser as well :) .

    --
    ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
    | weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
    | webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
    |zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
    `-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'
    Barbara de Zoete, Jan 31, 2005
    #11
  12. tshad wrote:

    > So I delete the persons signature (as I think I just did) that I am
    > responding to? Everthing below the "--"?


    A real sig starts with "-- " not "--".

    > I am using Outlook express 6 for my browser. Is there a way to
    > tell it to delete these?


    OE needs help. Google for downloads to OE-Quotefix. The add-on may
    help to turn OE into a reasonable^W somewhat better application for
    reading Usenet.

    <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=download+OE-Quotefix>

    <http://insideoe.tomsterdam.com/resources/tools.htm#oequotefix>

    --
    -bts
    -This space intentionally left blank.
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Jan 31, 2005
    #12
  13. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > tshad wrote:
    >
    >> So I delete the persons signature (as I think I just did) that I am
    >> responding to? Everthing below the "--"?

    >
    > A real sig starts with "-- " not "--".
    >
    >> I am using Outlook express 6 for my browser. Is there a way to
    >> tell it to delete these?

    >
    > OE needs help. Google for downloads to OE-Quotefix. The add-on may help to
    > turn OE into a reasonable^W somewhat better application for reading
    > Usenet.
    >
    > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=download+OE-Quotefix>
    >
    > <http://insideoe.tomsterdam.com/resources/tools.htm#oequotefix>


    Ok,

    So back to my question:

    I can't find anything bad about Verdana per se, but I can find some problems
    with Style Sheets (mainly the support of Browsers).

    Is there something wrong with Verdana?

    I don't use Verdana by itself, but the family:

    table {
    font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
    }

    I was using this one because my boss likes it.

    Also, I assume if I want to use the same family for all my sheets, I would
    need to put the font in both my "body" and "table" styles. Is that right?

    Thanks,

    Tom

    sig gone
    tshad, Jan 31, 2005
    #13
  14. On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:24:46 GMT, tshad <> wrote:

    > "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > Ok,
    >
    > So back to my question:
    >


    Not Ok,

    > I can't find anything bad about Verdana per se, but I can find some problems
    > with Style Sheets (mainly the support of Browsers).
    >
    > Is there something wrong with Verdana?
    >


    I repeat (and I don't like doing that):
    <http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22Don't+use+Verdana%22>

    --
    ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
    | weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
    | webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
    |zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
    `-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'
    Barbara de Zoete, Jan 31, 2005
    #14
  15. tshad

    Isofarro Guest

    tshad wrote:

    > Is there something wrong with Verdana?
    >
    > I don't use Verdana by itself, but the family:
    >
    > table {
    > font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
    > }


    Well googling as noted above would present:
    * <url:http://www.html-faq.com/csspresentation/?verdana>
    * <url:http://virtuelvis.com/archives/2004/01/avoid-verdana>



    Verdana by itself isn't a problem, unless the web designer does something
    silly like setting a smaller font because default Verdana looks too big.
    Verdana is designed to look bigger than other fonts - in the interests of
    onscreen readability.

    Combining Verdana with other sans-serif fonts particularly Arial and
    Helvetica is problematical, especially when the font-size is set less than
    the default font-size of the browser.

    The "problem" lies in the difference between Verdana and other sans-serif
    fonts. Verdana has what is called a larger x-size than, say, Arial. That
    means even though capital letters will be the same vertical size at the
    same font-size, Verdana's lowercase letters are actually taller than Arial.
    For example, the lower case x in Verdana is taller than the lower case x in
    Arial for the same font-size.

    Verdana was created as a more readable font for the web, so by having a
    larger proportion x-size than other fonts it is more clear and readable.

    The main problem with your above font-list is that, if you decide to reduce
    the font=size to something less than 100% to where you find it comfortable
    when using Verdana, on the browsers that don't have Verdana, the second
    specified font - Arial - is used. Now you have a smaller x-sized font in
    place, which results in normal (lower case) text being far smaller than it
    was probably originally intended.

    The best practice approach is to either use Verdana by itself, or offer
    fonts that have the same x-size as Verdana as secondary fonts. This
    minimises the "Verdana problem".




    --
    Isofarro.
    FAQ: http://www.html-faq.com/
    Recommended Hosting: http://www.affordablehost.com/
    isolani: http://www.isolani.co.uk/blog/
    Isofarro, Jan 31, 2005
    #15
  16. tshad wrote:

    > Ok,
    >
    > So back to my question:
    >
    > I can't find anything bad about Verdana per se,


    Has anyone posted Stephen Poley's link yet?
    http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html

    > but I can find some problems with Style Sheets (mainly the support
    > of Browsers).


    There are very few browsers left in use that do not support CSS.
    Unless you are trying to do intricate pixel-perfect layout, you will
    have no problems. Design your site so a bit of floating doesn't
    destroy it.

    > Is there something wrong with Verdana?
    >
    > I don't use Verdana by itself, but the family:
    >
    > table { font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; }
    >
    > I was using this one because my boss likes it.


    Give your boss the link to Stephen's page. Tell him you hope he is not
    going to be the only visitor to the site.

    > Also, I assume if I want to use the same family for all my sheets,


    All your sheets? Don't you have just one?

    > I would need to put the font in both my "body" and "table" styles.
    > Is that right?


    Some browsers need a bit of a kick in that the body font properties
    may not cascade to a table cell (td). You may want to specify
    td { font: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif 100%; }

    --
    -bts
    -This space intentionally left blank.
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Jan 31, 2005
    #16
  17. tshad

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Mark Parnell, Jan 31, 2005
    #17
  18. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Barbara de Zoete" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:pslhfybmzx5vgts@zoete_b...
    > On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:24:46 GMT, tshad <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >> Ok,
    >>
    >> So back to my question:
    >>

    >
    > Not Ok,
    >
    >> I can't find anything bad about Verdana per se, but I can find some
    >> problems
    >> with Style Sheets (mainly the support of Browsers).
    >>
    >> Is there something wrong with Verdana?
    >>

    >
    > I repeat (and I don't like doing that):
    > <http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22Don't+use+Verdana%22>
    >


    Sorry,

    I didn't notice the link as it looked like a link - it looked like a
    previous comment (the "<>" were black and I mistook the ">" for a "<" -
    which means from previous post on my program).

    Tom
    tshad, Jan 31, 2005
    #18
  19. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > tshad wrote:
    >
    >> Ok,
    >>
    >> So back to my question:
    >>
    >> I can't find anything bad about Verdana per se,

    >
    > Has anyone posted Stephen Poley's link yet?
    > http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html
    >
    >> but I can find some problems with Style Sheets (mainly the support
    >> of Browsers).

    >
    > There are very few browsers left in use that do not support CSS. Unless
    > you are trying to do intricate pixel-perfect layout, you will have no
    > problems. Design your site so a bit of floating doesn't destroy it.
    >
    >> Is there something wrong with Verdana?
    >>
    >> I don't use Verdana by itself, but the family:
    >>
    >> table { font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; }
    >>
    >> I was using this one because my boss likes it.

    >
    > Give your boss the link to Stephen's page. Tell him you hope he is not
    > going to be the only visitor to the site.
    >
    >> Also, I assume if I want to use the same family for all my sheets,

    >
    > All your sheets? Don't you have just one?
    >
    >> I would need to put the font in both my "body" and "table" styles. Is
    >> that right?

    >
    > Some browsers need a bit of a kick in that the body font properties may
    > not cascade to a table cell (td). You may want to specify
    > td { font: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif 100%; }
    >


    I will give the page to my boss.

    It does make sense not to use Verdana unless you are only going to use an
    intranet, I suppose.

    This also may be why I have gone to sites and couldn't read the text because
    it was so small.

    Thanks,

    Tom
    tshad, Jan 31, 2005
    #19
  20. tshad

    Matt Clara Guest

    "tshad" <> wrote in message
    news:FiyLd.9584$...
    > "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in message
    > news:...

    <snip>

    > I will give the page to my boss.
    >
    > It does make sense not to use Verdana unless you are only going to use an
    > intranet, I suppose.
    >


    No it doesn't. Use verdana if that's the way you like your pages to look.
    Yes, the font is bigger than most. So what, it's the way it's designed.
    This font has been included in Windows since (at least) win 95. 90%+ of the
    people in the world using personal computers have Verdana installed on their
    system. There are things to look out for (not that anyone here has clearly
    enumerated them), but there's no reason to say "don't use Verdana". That's
    ridiculous.

    > This also may be why I have gone to sites and couldn't read the text

    because
    > it was so small.


    That's bad design whether it be because of misuse of fonts or another
    reason.

    --
    Regards,
    Matt Clara
    www.mattclara.com
    Matt Clara, Feb 1, 2005
    #20
    1. Advertising

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