Question: tools for business apps development

Discussion in 'Python' started by Carlos Ribeiro, Sep 3, 2004.

  1. Hello all.

    I'm in the process of writing a business app in Python. (defining
    business app: data entry, validation, interactive reports, etc). For
    my purposes, it must be a native app (wxWidgets, GTK or Qt-based). A
    web application will not do it (although I would love it).

    To make a long history short: I used to develop business apps for a
    living for a long time (up to the mid 90s). My last experiences were
    with Delphi and VB. I know Python, but all projects I've done were
    either scripts for sysadmin work, or were networking related (I did
    SNMP, NetFlow, and a few web apps, also). Now, a friend of mine asked
    me to write a new app for his company, and a I suggested doing it in
    Python. I am limited to free tools only, by definition. So I collected
    a few questions that I would like to ask here.

    -- Which IDEs are better suited for business apps? I use PythonWin for
    most of my scripting work in Windows. On occasion, I edit in PythonWin
    or SciTE and run using the command line interpreter. I've downloaded
    Boa and PythonCard, and while both work (to a reasonable degree), I
    found both lacking for a RAD style development cycle. Are these tools
    being used for production code?

    -- Which free design tools are being actively used for business app
    development? (includes database-design, UML, etc). There are many
    tools available around, but most seem to be abandoned, or were used
    for some specific task and never touched again. I would like to know
    more about what is actually being used in production environments.

    Thanks in advance for any answer. Best regards,

    --
    Carlos Ribeiro
    Consultoria em Projetos
    blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
    blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
    mail:
    mail:
    Carlos Ribeiro, Sep 3, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. > For
    > my purposes, it must be a native app (wxWidgets, GTK or Qt-based). A
    > web application will not do it (although I would love it).


    Keep in mind that it is still possible to write an XUL application with
    Mozilla this way, and for example ActiveState has done this to develop
    their IDE. One could for example write an application that is local and
    then later could be web based. I've not used XUL but it looks
    interesting. In a sense maybe this approach is not so different from
    what MS is calling "Avalon" (?) -- the latest and greatest MS vaporware.

    I've used Tkinter which has a long history and is probably the most
    portable and stable -- but I've been thinking of trying out wxWidgits.
    GTK+ is really for linux only -- but there is a port to windows, and QT
    -- just be careful with the liscence, it is not free when writing
    commercial code.

    > Now, a friend of mine asked
    > me to write a new app for his company, and a I suggested doing it in
    > Python.


    I can only tell you what my impression is regarding python -- it would
    be good to hear from others. Most businesses probably use VB or Java
    for what your talking about (or perhaps C++). I'm not trying to
    encourage that -- and in fact I like and use python. I have used python
    for a few applications for the business I work for -- Tkinter based and
    I sued PythonWin IDE. As you say, the development tools were rather
    primative -- and tkinter though claiming to be native -- is not exactly so.

    ActiveState provides some commericial tools -- you might want to take a
    look and they also provide a plugin for MS Visual Studio. This is also
    a wonder -- is there Python support in Eclipse? I'm not certain.

    > -- Which IDEs are better suited for business apps? I use PythonWin for
    > most of my scripting work in Windows. On occasion, I edit in PythonWin
    > or SciTE and run using the command line interpreter. I've downloaded
    > Boa and PythonCard, and while both work (to a reasonable degree), I
    > found both lacking for a RAD style development cycle. Are these tools
    > being used for production code?


    I don't know. Be good to hear from others. By the way, emacs also has
    a python mode. I personally have been thinking of looking at Boa but
    have not used it.

    > -- Which free design tools are being actively used for business app
    > development? (includes database-design, UML, etc). There are many
    > tools available around, but most seem to be abandoned, or were used
    > for some specific task and never touched again. I would like to know
    > more about what is actually being used in production environments.


    Don't know. Maybe others know.

    Take care,
    Rob
    Robert M. Emmons, Sep 4, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. > For
    > my purposes, it must be a native app (wxWidgets, GTK or Qt-based). A
    > web application will not do it (although I would love it).


    Keep in mind that it is still possible to write an XUL application with
    Mozilla this way, and for example ActiveState has done this to develop
    their IDE. One could for example write an application that is local and
    then later could be web based. I've not used XUL but it looks
    interesting. In a sense maybe this approach is not so different from
    what MS is calling "Avalon" (?) -- the latest and greatest MS vaporware.

    I've used Tkinter which has a long history and is probably the most
    portable and stable -- but I've been thinking of trying out wxWidgits.
    GTK+ is really for linux only -- but there is a port to windows, and QT
    -- just be careful with the liscence, it is not free when writing
    commercial code.

    > Now, a friend of mine asked
    > me to write a new app for his company, and a I suggested doing it in
    > Python.


    I can only tell you what my impression is regarding python -- it would
    be good to hear from others. Most businesses probably use VB or Java
    for what your talking about (or perhaps C++). I'm not trying to
    encourage that -- and in fact I like and use python. I have used python
    for a few applications for the business I work for -- Tkinter based and
    I sued PythonWin IDE. As you say, the development tools were rather
    primative -- and tkinter though claiming to be native -- is not exactly so.

    ActiveState provides some commericial tools -- you might want to take a
    look and they also provide a plugin for MS Visual Studio. This is also
    a wonder -- is there Python support in Eclipse? I'm not certain.

    > -- Which IDEs are better suited for business apps? I use PythonWin for
    > most of my scripting work in Windows. On occasion, I edit in PythonWin
    > or SciTE and run using the command line interpreter. I've downloaded
    > Boa and PythonCard, and while both work (to a reasonable degree), I
    > found both lacking for a RAD style development cycle. Are these tools
    > being used for production code?


    I don't know. Be good to hear from others. By the way, emacs also has
    a python mode. I personally have been thinking of looking at Boa but
    have not used it.

    > -- Which free design tools are being actively used for business app
    > development? (includes database-design, UML, etc). There are many
    > tools available around, but most seem to be abandoned, or were used
    > for some specific task and never touched again. I would like to know
    > more about what is actually being used in production environments.


    Don't know. Maybe others know.

    Take care,
    Rob
    Robert M. Emmons, Sep 4, 2004
    #3
  4. Carlos Ribeiro <> wrote:

    > Hello all.
    >
    > I'm in the process of writing a business app in Python. (defining
    > business app: data entry, validation, interactive reports, etc). For
    > my purposes, it must be a native app (wxWidgets, GTK or Qt-based). A


    OK, but, native to WHAT platform...? Later you mention it must be all
    done with free tools... Qt on Windows isn't. QtDesigner is good, but Qt
    only free for (free-software dev't on) Unix/Linux and Mac, not for (any
    kind of dev't on) Windows.


    Alex
    Alex Martelli, Sep 5, 2004
    #4
  5. Robert M. Emmons <> wrote:
    ...
    > a wonder -- is there Python support in Eclipse? I'm not certain.


    Yes, there is now (a relatively recent development), there was a talk
    about it at OSCON.


    Alex
    Alex Martelli, Sep 5, 2004
    #5
  6. On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:41:03 +0200, Alex Martelli <> wrote:
    > OK, but, native to WHAT platform...? Later you mention it must be all
    > done with free tools... Qt on Windows isn't. QtDesigner is good, but Qt
    > only free for (free-software dev't on) Unix/Linux and Mac, not for (any
    > kind of dev't on) Windows.


    It will run in Windows, but it's supposed to be multiplatform -
    whatever it means nowadays :) My friend is toying with the idea to
    turn his company into a full Linux based shop. Unfortunately, it's not
    a decision that he can't take alone. For now he already managed to
    convince his partners to use OpenOffice for a lot of stuff, but a few
    things still are done using MS Office based tools. Some internal apps
    use MS Access -- the company is small, so there is no need for SQL
    Server. And web-based apps are thought to be limited, not interactive
    or responsive enough for the job (the dependence on heavy Javascript
    programming doesn't help it either).

    So I can't use Qt. I've evaluated some wxWidgets-based tools, but
    found them not quite ready for prime time. And I'm not inclined to
    study XUL just to do it, but I can change my mind. I don't feel
    comfortable to use a browser extension to write a full fledged app --
    it may be a prejudice of mine (I don't like browser-based Java apps,
    either, although its a completely different beast), and a little
    reading may help to dispell it.

    If I was running a commercial shop now, I would probably use Delphi.
    That's what I used a long time ago, and there is still a sizeable
    local community still using it (regardless of Borland's diminishing
    market share). I'm still pondering my choices.

    --
    Carlos Ribeiro
    Consultoria em Projetos
    blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
    blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
    mail:
    mail:
    Carlos Ribeiro, Sep 6, 2004
    #6
  7. On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 08:28:55 -0500, Robert M. Emmons <> wrote:
    > Keep in mind that it is still possible to write an XUL application with
    > Mozilla this way, and for example ActiveState has done this to develop
    > their IDE.


    I hadn't thought about using XUL before. I need to study it better. I
    have a certain prejudice against using browser based apps -- for
    instance, I don't like browser based Java apps. I don't know if XUL
    uses a similar model or not. On the other hand, I really like standard
    browser-based Web apps -- using CSS and Javascript and stuff like
    that. What I don't like is the basic sandbox model and all the
    security issues associated with it. I just don't feel comfortable.

    > I've used Tkinter which has a long history and is probably the most
    > portable and stable -- but I've been thinking of trying out wxWidgits.
    > GTK+ is really for linux only -- but there is a port to windows, and QT
    > -- just be careful with the liscence, it is not free when writing
    > commercial code.


    Tkinter may be good enough for my needs. I just couldn't find a good
    RAD style tool to use with it. I found some for wxWidgets, but none
    are up to my expectations now.

    > I can only tell you what my impression is regarding python -- it would
    > be good to hear from others. Most businesses probably use VB or Java
    > for what your talking about (or perhaps C++). I'm not trying to
    > encourage that -- and in fact I like and use python. I have used python
    > for a few applications for the business I work for -- Tkinter based and
    > I sued PythonWin IDE. As you say, the development tools were rather
    > primative -- and tkinter though claiming to be native -- is not exactly so.


    This is an area where the lack of strong commercial drive for Python
    really hurts. For all infrastructure related matters one can use
    Python without fear. There are plenty of tools and excellent libraries
    to support it. But business app development is now mostly focused
    towards either an MS tools based environment (VB, VC++, or C#) or
    Java-based tools. And I would really like to do it in Python, I think
    the language itself is mature and good enough for the job -- only the
    tools are missing.


    --
    Carlos Ribeiro
    Consultoria em Projetos
    blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
    blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
    mail:
    mail:
    Carlos Ribeiro, Sep 6, 2004
    #7
  8. > I hadn't thought about using XUL before. I need to study it better. I
    > have a certain prejudice against using browser based apps -- for
    > instance, I don't like browser based Java apps.


    No it is not like java apps. Basically with python you can write an
    applciation that runs on your local host that either essentially surves
    up XUL or HTML/XHTML pages just like you might in Javascript -- only
    it's more like CGI scripting -- or using a fully Javascript generated
    page. The advatnage of XUL over HTML is that you get control of the
    full window with native looking controls and components.

    The other nice thing is that if you use this mode, an application can
    probably then be served from a web server at a later date if you want to
    do that.

    I have not tried this -- but I did a little surfing and reading on the
    web a few months ago and it seemed both interesting and a little unique.

    There is a book about this titled "Rapid Application Development with
    Mozilla" that talks all about this. It is available free on the net
    (sorry can't remember the URL, or in print from the bookstore). I don't
    know if this discusses python or not, but it certain discusses XUL and
    JavaScript.

    > And I would really like to do it in Python, I think
    > the language itself is mature and good enough for the job -- only the
    > tools are missing.


    Yes, I've not found anything really. I assume you mean interface
    builders in particular? For that matter -- are there any good
    opensource interface builders -- I mean really good and integrated with
    the IDE etc. I've not seen any.

    Rob
    Robert M. Emmons, Sep 7, 2004
    #8
  9. > It will run in Windows, but it's supposed to be multiplatform -
    > whatever it means nowadays :) My friend is toying with the idea to
    > turn his company into a full Linux based shop.


    One stratagy to move to Linux: Move to the web, avoid VB -- use Java
    instead, don't use MS Office -- use OpenOffice. This is probably the
    most conservative approach. It's hard to see how anyone can be scared
    of that approach.

    Again -- I not encouraging Java because it's not open source, but it
    does have Linux support and is commerical with some free tools and it is
    probalby a more conservative choice than python -- though python is way
    cool and I like python myself. People also say good things about QT
    development environment -- but again that's commerical -- and I don't
    know what it has for python support.

    > And web-based apps are thought to be limited, not interactive
    > or responsive enough for the job (the dependence on heavy Javascript
    > programming doesn't help it either).


    I believe this is why XUL exists -- to give web based apps a local
    applicaiton look and feel.

    > And I'm not inclined to
    > study XUL just to do it, but I can change my mind. I don't feel
    > comfortable to use a browser extension to write a full fledged app --
    > it may be a prejudice of mine (I don't like browser-based Java apps,
    > either, although its a completely different beast), and a little
    > reading may help to dispell it.


    Yes I have that concern -- but I've not tried it and don't know either
    way. The Active State IDE is writen this way, so there is one example.

    Rob
    Robert M. Emmons, Sep 7, 2004
    #9
  10. Robert M. Emmons <> wrote:

    > There is a book about this titled "Rapid Application Development with
    > Mozilla" that talks all about this. It is available free on the net
    > (sorry can't remember the URL, or in print from the bookstore). I don't
    > know if this discusses python or not, but it certain discusses XUL and
    > JavaScript.


    I googled. found and downloaded the book, and had a quick check -- alas,
    the "discussion" of Python in the book is limited to:
    """
    Embedded programmers can use languages such as Perl and Python to drive
    all the windows that an application based on the Mozilla Platform
    creates. Such uses are not documented here.
    """

    While it definitely looks like a worthwhile book on XUL, anybody wanting
    to drive XUL from anything except Java or Javascript should, I guess,
    look elsewhere (perhaps in _addition_ to said book). I suspect the
    easiest way to drive XUL from Python based on this book might be to use
    Jython and XUL's Java interfaces (I haven't checked in detail, but
    offhand it looks like the book does document XUL's Java interfaces).


    Alex
    Alex Martelli, Sep 7, 2004
    #10
  11. > And web-based apps are thought to be limited, not interactive
    > or responsive enough for the job (the dependence on heavy Javascript
    > programming doesn't help it either).
    >


    One of possibilities is to use Flash (in a browser) for GUI. I am
    thinking about using it for some project that also needs more
    interactivity: Flash for frontend, Python for backend (Web service
    using XMLRPC).
    You can use Flash IDE for fast GUI builing, and code the flow of your
    GUI in Action Script files, using your favorite editor.
    The sad part of this approach is that you can't program everything in
    Python. The nice part is the maintainability (no install, automatically
    download of the latest version).

    But these are my thoughts... I wonder what people say who actually did
    it :)

    Ksenia.
    Ksenia Marasanova, Sep 7, 2004
    #11
  12. Ksenia Marasanova wrote:

    >> And web-based apps are thought to be limited, not interactive
    >> or responsive enough for the job (the dependence on heavy Javascript
    >> programming doesn't help it either).
    >>

    >
    > One of possibilities is to use Flash (in a browser) for GUI. I am
    > thinking about using it for some project that also needs more
    > interactivity: Flash for frontend, Python for backend (Web service using
    > XMLRPC).
    > You can use Flash IDE for fast GUI builing, and code the flow of your
    > GUI in Action Script files, using your favorite editor.
    > The sad part of this approach is that you can't program everything in
    > Python. The nice part is the maintainability (no install, automatically
    > download of the latest version).
    >
    > But these are my thoughts... I wonder what people say who actually did
    > it :)
    >
    > Ksenia.
    >


    It's actually a very effective solution, in my experience. You get a
    cross-platform, very smart client talking to the server of your choice.
    When I used this approach (pre-Python-discovery) I wrote the server in
    Java and all messages were exchanged as XML. Now I would make the same
    choice as you: Python server using XML-RPC.

    Dan
    Daniel Ellison, Sep 7, 2004
    #12
  13. Alex Martelli wrote:

    >Robert M. Emmons <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>There is a book about this titled "Rapid Application Development with
    >>Mozilla" that talks all about this. It is available free on the net
    >>(sorry can't remember the URL, or in print from the bookstore). I don't
    >>know if this discusses python or not, but it certain discusses XUL and
    >>JavaScript.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >I googled. found and downloaded the book, and had a quick check -- alas,
    >the "discussion" of Python in the book is limited to:
    >"""
    >Embedded programmers can use languages such as Perl and Python to drive
    >all the windows that an application based on the Mozilla Platform
    >creates. Such uses are not documented here.
    >"""
    >
    >While it definitely looks like a worthwhile book on XUL, anybody wanting
    >to drive XUL from anything except Java or Javascript should, I guess,
    >look elsewhere (perhaps in _addition_ to said book). I suspect the
    >easiest way to drive XUL from Python based on this book might be to use
    >Jython and XUL's Java interfaces (I haven't checked in detail, but
    >offhand it looks like the book does document XUL's Java interfaces).
    >
    >

    If you just want a native Mozilla app with Python as the main
    development language, you are better off using Mark Hammond's PyXPCOM.
    This allows you to call and write XPCOM components in (C)Python. Since
    Mozilla exposes all interesting functionality as XPCOM components, you
    can do anything this way. PyXPCOM is part of the main Mozilla
    distribution, though it is not built by default.

    --
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Aaron Bingham
    Application Developer
    Cenix BioScience GmbH
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Aaron Bingham, Sep 7, 2004
    #13
  14. Carlos Ribeiro

    R.Marquez Guest

    > I've downloaded
    > Boa and PythonCard, and while both work (to a reasonable degree), I
    > found both lacking for a RAD style development cycle. Are these tools
    > being used for production code?


    I am probably more of a craftsman than a "RAD" styled developer. So I
    do most of my application development by hand. However, I have used
    PythonCard for some tools and found it quite adequate (especially
    since you can reach out and code straight wx for the controls not yet
    implemented in PythonCard). I have not yet done much with Boa,
    especially with the latest release, but I have heard many good things
    about it. So, I am curious as to where do you see these tools as
    lacking. Could you elaborate a little more on this, and on what you
    would like to see instead.

    -Ruben
    R.Marquez, Sep 7, 2004
    #14
  15. >> One of possibilities is to use Flash (in a browser) for GUI. I am
    >> thinking about using it for some project that also needs more
    >> interactivity: Flash for frontend, Python for backend (Web service
    >> using XMLRPC).
    >> You can use Flash IDE for fast GUI builing, and code the flow of your
    >> GUI in Action Script files, using your favorite editor.
    >> The sad part of this approach is that you can't program everything in
    >> Python. The nice part is the maintainability (no install,
    >> automatically download of the latest version).
    >> But these are my thoughts... I wonder what people say who actually
    >> did it :)
    >> Ksenia.

    >
    > It's actually a very effective solution, in my experience. You get a
    > cross-platform, very smart client talking to the server of your
    > choice. When I used this approach (pre-Python-discovery) I wrote the
    > server in Java and all messages were exchanged as XML. Now I would
    > make the same choice as you: Python server using XML-RPC.
    >


    Good to hear that :)
    I was thinking about that 'very smart client'... actually, I want the
    Flash client to be 'as dumb as possible' :) In the terms of
    Model-View-Controller, wouldn't it be even better to have only 'View'
    in Flash? The 'Controller' can then be on the server, in Python,
    comunicating with Flash client in...XUL? ;-) It will be basically the
    same as generating HTML for the browser... but with richer widgets.

    Googled from curiosity:
    http://zulu.netspedition.com/zulu/main/overview.shtml

    Hmm...

    Ksenia.
    Ksenia Marasanova, Sep 8, 2004
    #15
  16. Hello all,

    Thanks to all that have contributed so far. Some very good suggestions
    have appeared. I still have my concerns over XUL. Flash is also
    another matter -- it requires yet another set of knowledge and tools
    before starting to write code. But nonetheless, all these approaches
    have their own advantages, namely a richer user experience than it's
    possible with plain HTML (or even Tk). So they're really worth
    checking.

    As a dig deeper in the search of a business development paradigm for
    Python, the more problems I find. It's not only lack of tools. It's
    also the lack of a common idiom to write business apps. Each and every
    library around uses a different approach to map business objects and
    concepts to Python's code. Each one ties things together in a
    different way. It's surprising, considering that in Python normally
    "there is one way to do it". Not this is a show stopper -- it only
    shows how far we are now from something like J2EE.

    I'll keep looking around and checking more stuff. As far as the user
    interface is concerned -- I'll probably do it simple, using HTML and
    Javascript. Yes, I'm going to implement a webapp, instead of a native
    Windows app, or at least that's the current choice (my friend changed
    his mind over this). But I'll keep posting my progress.

    --
    Carlos Ribeiro
    Consultoria em Projetos
    blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
    blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
    mail:
    mail:
    Carlos Ribeiro, Sep 8, 2004
    #16
  17. Ksenia Marasanova wrote:
    >
    > Good to hear that :)
    > I was thinking about that 'very smart client'... actually, I want the
    > Flash client to be 'as dumb as possible' :) In the terms of
    > Model-View-Controller, wouldn't it be even better to have only 'View' in
    > Flash? The 'Controller' can then be on the server, in Python,
    > comunicating with Flash client in...XUL? ;-) It will be basically the
    > same as generating HTML for the browser... but with richer widgets.
    >
    > Googled from curiosity:
    > http://zulu.netspedition.com/zulu/main/overview.shtml
    >
    > Hmm...
    >
    > Ksenia.
    >


    Yes, that would be best. All business logic would be on the server, and
    anything "visual" would be handled by Flash, which would make XML-RPC
    method invocations to update on-screen data according to user actions.
    This should be pretty easy if one follows MVC properly. There are plenty
    of free (and plenty of inexpensive commercial) Flash widget sets
    available to make the UI creation easier.

    The latest incarnation of Flash also supports SOAP, if that's your bent.
    And I mean bent! :)

    Dan
    Daniel Ellison, Sep 8, 2004
    #17
  18. Carlos Ribeiro

    R Baumann Guest

    "Carlos Ribeiro" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hello all,
    >
    > Thanks to all that have contributed so far. Some very good suggestions
    > have appeared. I still have my concerns over XUL. Flash is also
    > another matter -- it requires yet another set of knowledge and tools
    > before starting to write code. But nonetheless, all these approaches
    > have their own advantages, namely a richer user experience than it's
    > possible with plain HTML (or even Tk). So they're really worth
    > checking.
    >
    > As a dig deeper in the search of a business development paradigm for
    > Python, the more problems I find. It's not only lack of tools. It's
    > also the lack of a common idiom to write business apps. Each and every
    > library around uses a different approach to map business objects and
    > concepts to Python's code. Each one ties things together in a
    > different way. It's surprising, considering that in Python normally
    > "there is one way to do it". Not this is a show stopper -- it only
    > shows how far we are now from something like J2EE.
    >
    > I'll keep looking around and checking more stuff. As far as the user
    > interface is concerned -- I'll probably do it simple, using HTML and
    > Javascript. Yes, I'm going to implement a webapp, instead of a native
    > Windows app, or at least that's the current choice (my friend changed
    > his mind over this). But I'll keep posting my progress.
    >
    > --
    > Carlos Ribeiro


    Have you looked at GNUe?
    R Baumann, Sep 8, 2004
    #18
  19. On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 12:06:48 -0700, R Baumann <> wrote:
    > Have you looked at GNUe?


    Haven't heard about it before, but I checked it following your tip.
    It's a great project, but it's overkill for my needs. The framework
    goes in the direction that I was thinking about -- specially the
    concept of forms, as presented there. I may check it out in the
    future, but for now I need something to prototype in two weeks --
    better to keep it simple.

    --
    Carlos Ribeiro
    Consultoria em Projetos
    blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
    blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
    mail:
    mail:
    Carlos Ribeiro, Sep 8, 2004
    #19
  20. Carlos Ribeiro

    JanC Guest

    Ksenia Marasanova schreef:

    > One of possibilities is to use Flash (in a browser) for GUI. I am
    > thinking about using it for some project that also needs more
    > interactivity: Flash for frontend, Python for backend (Web service
    > using XMLRPC).


    You can do this with HTML+JavaScript too, no need for Flash...

    --
    JanC

    "Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving."
    RFC 1958 - Architectural Principles of the Internet - section 3.9
    JanC, Sep 9, 2004
    #20
    1. Advertising

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