Quick questions...

[Greg Comeau]

Thad Smith wrote
(in article


I think the OP will discover that the answer depends upon the
age of the respondent, and won't be of much use today. He
probably doesn't want to start out with PDP-11 assembler,
Fortran, Snobol, Basic, etc.

IMO, the problem is that you don't not want something like that
either, given whatever the flavor of the month is today.

...
True, although as others have said, C probably isn't a great
first language, unless you have a really good teacher.

IMO, the problem is that this is true of any language.
Obviously some more than others, but often a rock and
a hard place through which to legitamately choose something
truly superior for first language, whatever that means or
should mean anyway.

 

[vishnuvyas]

But thats still the tip of the iceberg, if you want a career in
programming you have to know a whole bunch of languages from purely
declarative ones like SQL to a bunch of domain specific languages that
no-one uses. Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, portability and friends..

[OT]

I suspect you did not mean to write that friends are a form of
monstrosity ;-)

Well, I din't mean friends in the C++ sense if thats what you mean.
What I meant was you have to worry about things like portability and
things associated with portability (things like when i exactly need 32
bits what type should I actually use).

 

[Walter Roberson]

Well, I din't mean friends in the C++ sense if thats what you mean.
What I meant was you have to worry about things like portability and
things associated with portability (things like when i exactly need 32
bits what type should I actually use).

Heh, no, I knew what you -meant-... I was just remarking OT-ishly
on a bit of grammatical trivia according to which your sentance has
another meaning completely.

As written, your sentance was equivilent to,
"... with monstrosities like friends, standards, compliance [...]"
implying that as you develop a career in programming, those whom you
have friendships with start to appear to become monsterous. It's the
stereotypical geek anti-socialization effect -- that the more technoid
you become, the fewer friends you make.

The sentance you wanted to write should have an 'and' before
'portability', but there is debate over which of these two to use:

Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations and portability and friends..

versus

Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, and portability and friends..

 

[Erik de Castro Lopo]

...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C?

Before C I had programmed in BASIC, Pascal, Modula2 and
assembler.

What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?

I did a Baechelor of Engineering degree in Computer
Engineering.

Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b?

Probably no. The BASIC family of langugaes are not
highy reguarded in the programing world.

Python is at least as good a learning language as
BASIC and it will prevent you learning some of
the bad habits that BASIC may teach you.

Erik
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Erik de Castro Lopo
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Open Source and Free Software means that you never sacrifice quality
of the code for meeting deadlines set up by people not participating
directly in the software development process.

 

[John B]

...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.

If you want to be a programmer, the language you must learn first is
pseudo-code.

The secret of a good programmer is nothing to do with which language you
write your code in but everything to do with planning the program correctly,
understanding what the program is supposed to do and getting the logic
correct. Once you have written your program in pseudo-code then translate it
to whichever language you need to use for the customer that is paying your
wages.

 

[Randy Howard]

Greg Comeau wrote

IMO, the problem is that you don't not want something like that
either, given whatever the flavor of the month is today.

You can you decode all the extra negatives in there? I'm not
sure I follow what you intended to say.

 

[Greg Comeau]

Greg Comeau wrote


You can you decode all the extra negatives in there? I'm not
sure I follow what you intended to say.

You said something won't be of much use and that we probably
don't want to do something. I'm saying it might be of use,
and that we might want to.

 

[vishnuvyas]

Heh, no, I knew what you -meant-... I was just remarking OT-ishly
on a bit of grammatical trivia according to which your sentance has
another meaning completely.

Thanks for the grammar check.

As written, your sentance was equivilent to,
"... with monstrosities like friends, standards, compliance [...]"
implying that as you develop a career in programming, those whom you
have friendships with start to appear to become monsterous.

I guess the opposite is rather true, I do get 'You look scary' comments
after a 16hr hackathon ;-)

Cheers
Vishnu.

 

[Emmanuel Delahaye]

(e-mail address removed) a écrit :

...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.

82-84 : BASIC (Apple II, Commodore, IBM-PC) (self-learning)
87 : Pascal (The Revelation !) (self-learning)
87 : ASM 86 (course), C (self-learning)
88 : C (course), HP BASIC (HP 9000) (job)
91 : ASM 51 (job)
93 : ASM 68k, some VB.. (job)
94 til now : C (job)

 

[Das]

...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.

Are You serious??? then discuss the pros and cons and field of
application then decide.

If you ask me how i started then, Well there were some stuffs we called
it HC(Home Computers BBC Micro), They have a BASIC Interpreter inside
the ROM. So it it infered i started with BASIC. Then To some other
BASICs e.g BASICA,GWBASIC...
Well Then to FORTRAN(My graduate course included it), Then to PASCAL,
Assembly-x86, C and then C++.

To your surprise i have forgotten all except C and some Assembly Stuff.
And For your information I am learning C and Assembly everyday.

 

[Walter Roberson]

The secret of a good programmer is nothing to do with which language you
write your code in but everything to do with planning the program correctly,
understanding what the program is supposed to do and getting the logic
correct. Once you have written your program in pseudo-code then translate it
to whichever language you need to use for the customer that is paying your
wages.

Although that is generally sound advice, it fails for real-time systems,
embedded systems, and parallel programming: for those, it is crucial
that you consider the target system characteristics when creating
your program design.

 

[Mabden]

Although that is generally sound advice, it fails for real-time systems,
embedded systems, and parallel programming: for those, it is crucial
that you consider the target system characteristics when creating
your program design.

Yeah. That's good advice for a first time programmer, "Let's make a
microwave oven, kids! Next week, we're gonna program the Hubble
Telescope! SETI needs your help!"

 

[Mabden]

Just learn .NET - Any version.

In recent years, I have run across an essay that says, in all
seriousness, that if you want a good career, then do not go into
computer science: that the field is too flooded already with
programmers who do a "good enough" job; that companies are cutting
back on in-house programming; that companies are outsourcing a
lot of programming jobs to third-world countries... and some other
reasons I do not recall.

We have become a commodity. It was once "hard" to program computers
because you had to "read books and stuff". Now all anybody wants is a
web page. How is the "hard". MS Word ca make a web page...

If you are looking for a "career", then pick a field which is going to
be in big demand in the timeframe when you are going to be at your
prime -- oh, say, ecological reclamation, water purification science,
geriatic care, species extinction prevention, or pulling companies (or
countries) out of bankruptcy.

Indeed. Programming is for suckers. China will eat India's lunch in the
next 20 years, write it down. India better find a new job sphere,
because they have invented an idea that will bite their ass.

The path I followed is not one that can just be rationally "chosen".
You've heard of writers who must write, or painters who must paint...
some of us are programmers because we *must* be so.

Unfortunately, not in a good way. Sometimes I feel like the Realist
artist, but everyone has moved on to Surreal...
:-
(

 

[Mabden]

I suspect you did not mean to write that friends are a form of
monstrosity ;-)

You haven't met my friends...

 

[John Bode]

...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.

"A career in programming" covers a *lot* of ground. What application
domains interest you? Financials? Games? Graphics? Medical? Web or
Internet services? What do you see out there that you wish you had a
hand in?

I started out playing with TI BASIC (we're talking old-school BASIC,
where your control structures were GOTO, GOSUB, and line numbers) on a
TI-99/4A. I didn't even hear of C until I got to college, where it was
used in my intro CS class (ca 1986).

I do not recommend C as a first language, unless you have a *really
good* instructor or an authoritative reference. C was designed for
people who were already expert programmers, and as such assumes that
the programmer knows what he/she is doing at all times. C's a "you
asked for it, you got it" kind of language.

I've never personally used Python or Ruby, but I've seen others I trust
recommend them enthusiastically; you might want to check them out.

 

[Default User]

...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where
to begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.

My first programming (discounting the Fortran I took in the 70's as
part of my Physics curriculum) was the Mac language Hypertalk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertalk


After that I played with Pascal briefly, then went to C right after
that. At the time, there were very few resources available where I was.
I didn't know any other C programmers at the company, nor did we have
internet access. I took a course at the community college, then after
that it was me, my outdated copy of C Primer Plus, and the Turbo C
manual (a fantastic reference).



Brian

 

[Michael Wojcik]

As written, your sentance was equivilent to,
"... with monstrosities like friends, standards, compliance [...]"
implying that as you develop a career in programming, those whom you
have friendships with start to appear to become monsterous.

Hardly. "and friends" at the end of a list (possibly a list of only
one item) is a common English idiom meaning "and others of the sort".
(Of course, it can also literally mean "and friends".) Since there's
no equivalent idiom where "friends" with this meaning appears at the
begining of a list, your alternative is hardly equivalent. (Some
might uncharitably add that a discussion of usage with multiple
nonstandard spellings is suspect, but I wouldn't dream of it.)

The sentance you wanted to write should have an 'and' before
'portability',

"should" is too strong. There are conditions under which that might
be preferable:

- if the author means "and friends" in the idiomatic sense given
above, and

- if the author wishes to restrict the scope of such "friends" to
only the final item in the preceeding list, and

- if the author wants to avoid the style of writing a list with no
conjunction before the final element, which may be considered
informal (or "wrong", though that claim is unwarranted) by some

However, the sentence as originally written is perfectly acceptable
idiomatic English (aside from the double period at the end, which I
assume is a typo for either a period or an elipsis, the unusual
spelling of "monstrocities", and the typo in "optimisiations").

 

[Joe Wright]

Eric Sosman wrote:

[Much snippage]

Of course, all this is a bit speculative on my part. I did
not actually begin my study of programming with either Java or
Lisp, and don't actually know from personal experience how good
or bad they might be. I think, though, that they'd be better
starting points than C -- I started learning C almost thirty years
ago, and I *still* haven't grasped all of it!

Well keep plugging at it Eric. You'll catch up to me one day.
<grin, duck and running like hell>

I first saw BASIC running on a CP/M machine back at the beginning of
time. I wrote a couple of routines, figured out the line numbering and
let it drop. I never became a BASIC programmer.

In 1980 or so I had occasion to learn i8080 assembler under CP/M and
became good at it. Also Z-80 assembler. I got really good at it.

Then I had occasion to learn Turbo Pascal 3.0 as my first 'high' level
language. I did learn it to an extent, but I never really liked Pascal.

Then I found a C compiler for CP/M from The Software Toolworks which
included the C library source code (in 8080 asm). A friend of mine was
leaving town and in cleaning out his bookcase, tossed his copy of K&R1
at me. I was in heaven.

Although I didn't have compiler source, I re-wrote the library routines
to match to the extent I could the upcoming C standard.

I then re-wrote my entire CP/M utilities assortment in C. I had a shell
account at netcom.com at the time and transferred many to these
utilities to the Sun machine and compiled and ran them there. I had
determined that I could write a C program and run it under CP/M or Unix.
I was hooked. I embraced C and have never looked back.

I haven't written one line of .ASM code since ~1990.

C Rules.

I do have a couple of other languages I do business in to make a living
but they are OT here.

 

[Mabden]

Eric Sosman wrote:

In 1980 or so I had occasion to learn i8080 assembler under CP/M and
became good at it. Also Z-80 assembler. I got really good at it.

How wierd was that language, A different instruction for every register.

Then I had occasion to learn Turbo Pascal 3.0 as my first 'high' level
language. I did learn it to an extent, but I never really liked

Pascal.

It was my language of choice until I had to give up because it was too
similar to C, and I kept messing up whichever one I was writing in. I
was even considering the "#define { BEGIN" kludge, but decided to just
drop Pascal. It did give a nice intro to pointers, tho. Like BASIC, it
is a learning tool.

I haven't written one line of .ASM code since ~1990.

Around the time Windows came out...?