Rant: One more browser to test

[Toby A Inkster]

Google monoculture, dutch elm disease, and probably some others that
escape me ATM.

The Irish Potato Famine.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 29 days, 16:20.]

Parsing an HTML Table with PEAR's XML_HTTPSax3
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/07/20/html-table-parsing/

 

[Toby A Inkster]

It may fork very soon. That's what bothers me at the moment.

Usually even if the code forks, they'll resync against the Gecko core
whenever Gecko makes a major release.

e.g. even though Firefox, Seamonkey, Epiphany, Camino and so forth all use
different codebases, they all keep up with the latest releases of Gecko.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 29 days, 16:25.]

Parsing an HTML Table with PEAR's XML_HTTPSax3
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/07/20/html-table-parsing/

 

[Bergamot]

Virtually all accessibility issues could be resolved by the makes of
the various browsers and readers.

Actually, I expect the reader to handle this particular feature, but it
has to be supported by the authoring software as well. Adobe hasn't
bothered to do anything about it either way.

It is not just up to adobe, the
browsers/readers have a stake in this too if it is going to be done.

They should set the example by fixing their own reader. eh?

I don't see what browsers have to do with it at all, unless they start
having native Flash support. Until then it's the work of the plug-in to
deal with it.

 

[Animesh K]

It's a *beta* - have you reported the bug to Apple?

sherm--

Beta ... err. Well I am a cook and I am experimenting with dishes. Will
you be my guest and get bad food just because my dish is Beta. And top
of that, can you suggest corrective measure about my cooking? Who pays
for the stomach disorder?

Apple is not a freeware company. An open-source freeware being beta
makes a lot of sense since volunteers are needed for free projects. An
old man just interested in browser-market-capture should not impose
junk-free stuff as Beta.

Or even Beta stuff, which gives you some extra-functionality can be
tested out (like Adobe Lightroom Beta). I have firefox to switch to, if
Safari misbehaves. Who reports the error? It's a headache of Steve, not
mine.

 

[Bergamot]

Beta ... err. Well I am a cook and I am experimenting with dishes. Will
you be my guest and get bad food just because my dish is Beta.

Sure - it happens all the time. I come from a family of cooks, so I know.

And top
of that, can you suggest corrective measure about my cooking?

It is not the responsibility of the bug reporter to debug, only to
report the error and provide enough info for the programmer to debug it.

Who pays
for the stomach disorder?

You aren't obligated to use beta software. If you aren't comfortable
using unproven software, wait for the official release.

Apple is not a freeware company. An open-source freeware being beta
makes a lot of sense since volunteers are needed for free projects. An
old man just interested in browser-market-capture should not impose
junk-free stuff as Beta.

Gee, I guess we should tell this to Microsoft next time they want to
release a new version of IE for beta testing. BTW, nobody "imposed"
this thing on you. You are free to *not* use it.

if
Safari misbehaves. Who reports the error? It's a headache of Steve, not
mine.

Beta software will have bugs - it's the nature of the beast. Get over it
or don't use it, but it's pointless to whine about it.

 

[Neredbojias]

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Fri, 20 Jul 2007 22:27:57 GMT
Animesh K scribed:

Beta ... err. Well I am a cook and I am experimenting with dishes. Will
you be my guest and get bad food just because my dish is Beta.

You're assuming "bad". It's quality is unknown until tested. -The
rationale of beta.

 

[Animesh K]

Gee, I guess we should tell this to Microsoft next time they want to
release a new version of IE for beta testing. BTW, nobody "imposed"
this thing on you. You are free to *not* use it.

Microsoft is a different story. At times, people using windows don't
even know anything beyond IE. And that's why IE has about 65% market.
Telling IE about bugs makes the life of designer simpler.

Even Msoft should hire people for finding bugs! I am not trying to
defend Msoft. Their browser is much worse compared to Safari. In fact I
would not call Safari bad just because of 2-3 bugs that I noticed.

Beta software will have bugs - it's the nature of the beast. Get over it
or don't use it, but it's pointless to whine about it.

Well someone claimed that universal browser should be Safari. I had to
tell about the misbehavior. I am not whining, just telling it doesn't
even copy paste right in certain situations.

 

[Animesh K]

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Fri, 20 Jul 2007 22:27:57 GMT
Animesh K scribed:


You're assuming "bad". It's quality is unknown until tested. -The
rationale of beta.

Are we getting into a logical debate now

I was working with the beta browser and it didn't cut n paste right.
Taste detected and mentioned. No? I think browser developers (or their
friends) can test it out. Big companies can easily shell out a few
thousand bucks extra for this purpose.

Just keep $10 per bug award and watch. Ummm Msoft may go bankrupt
though, with such a scheme.

 

[Ed Mullen]

Microsoft is a different story. At times, people using windows don't
even know anything beyond IE. And that's why IE has about 65% market.
Telling IE about bugs makes the life of designer simpler.

Even Msoft should hire people for finding bugs! I am not trying to
defend Msoft. Their browser is much worse compared to Safari. In fact I
would not call Safari bad just because of 2-3 bugs that I noticed.



Well someone claimed that universal browser should be Safari. I had to
tell about the misbehavior. I am not whining, just telling it doesn't
even copy paste right in certain situations.

The point is that Beta software is NOT a final release version: It is
put out there for people to test and find bugs before the first
"release" version is put out into the market. It's fine to test a Beta
release and comment on problems. It makes no sense to complain that a
Beta HAS problems. It's /supposed/ to have problems.

 

[Neredbojias]

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sat, 21 Jul 2007 02:37:43
GMT Animesh K scribed:

Are we getting into a logical debate now

No. I was generalizing and had forgotten your post of a few slots back.
However, my point was that beta in general isn't necessarily bad even for
individuals.

I was working with the beta browser and it didn't cut n paste right.
Taste detected and mentioned. No? I think browser developers (or their
friends) can test it out. Big companies can easily shell out a few
thousand bucks extra for this purpose.

See what you mean although I think any new "item" needs real-world
evaluation for a true test of its worth.

Just keep $10 per bug award and watch. Ummm Msoft may go bankrupt
though, with such a scheme.

Wouldn't that be a shame?

 

[Toby A Inkster]

Well someone claimed that universal browser should be Safari. I had to
tell about the misbehavior. I am not whining, just telling it doesn't
even copy paste right in certain situations.

Well, that won't be an issue as the universal OS will be Mac OS X; and
Safari doesn't exhibit this bug on Macs.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 30 days, 14:33.]

Parsing an HTML Table with PEAR's XML_HTTPSax3
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/07/20/html-table-parsing/

 

[Bergamot]

Beta HAS problems. It's /supposed/ to have problems.

I'd like to think that it's /expected/ to have problems. It would be
sweet if it didn't, though.

 

[Bergamot]

No? I think browser developers (or their
friends) can test it out. Big companies can easily shell out a few
thousand bucks extra for this purpose.

That would be unwise. There are huge variations in how people use
browsers, and in browser settings. It is not possible for a small group
of people to test all combinations. You need a diverse group to do that,
which is a lot more costly than a few thousand bucks.

Releasing a beta to the general public is a smart move.

 

[Toby A Inkster]

I'd like to think that it's /expected/ to have problems. It would be
sweet if it didn't, though.

My definition for releasing software:

Alpha: Expected to have problems;
Beta: Not expected to have no problems;
Release: Expected to have no problems.

My current big project <http://demiblog.org/> is in alpha and is expected
to enter beta stage in Jan 2008 and release in Jun 2008. Development
started in Jan 2007.

Apple have more programmers than me though, so Safari should get there
faster.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 30 days, 17:52.]

Parsing an HTML Table with PEAR's XML_HTTPSax3
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/07/20/html-table-parsing/

 

[Ed Mullen]

I'd like to think that it's /expected/ to have problems. It would be
sweet if it didn't, though.

Amen to that! ;-)

 

[El Kabong]

The point is that Beta software is NOT a final release version: It is put
out there for people to test and find bugs before the first "release"
version is put out into the market. It's fine to test a Beta release and
comment on problems. It makes no sense to complain that a Beta HAS
problems. It's /supposed/ to have problems.

Then as a professional Web designer, trying to make a living designing
functional, practical Web sites, maybe I should ignore the beta versions and
stick to working with "released" versions. In fact, why waste time designing
for browsers that stats show are used by less than 5% of Web visitors? After
all, when this project is finished, the next one awaits.

El

 

[Ed Mullen]

Then as a professional Web designer, trying to make a living designing
functional, practical Web sites, maybe I should ignore the beta versions and
stick to working with "released" versions. In fact, why waste time designing
for browsers that stats show are used by less than 5% of Web visitors? After
all, when this project is finished, the next one awaits.

El

Depends on where the problems are in the Beta version. If they're
security, feature, or interface issues that don't affect page rendering,
it's probably not a problem from a page designer's standpoint. On the
other hand, it's certainly valid to stick with release versions.

As for percentage of market usage, what does that matter? I'd approach
it instead as: "I'm not going to write hacks to account for a particular
browser's inability to render pages according to the standards." If a
browser with 1% usage renders HTML and CSS properly, you have no problem.

 

[nice.guy.nige]

While the city slept, El Kabong ([email protected]) feverishly typed...

In fact, why waste time designing for browsers that stats show
are used by less than 5% of Web visitors?

What great reasoning! Excuse me while I phone my boss and explain that I'm
going to just ignore approximately 250 - 300 unique visitors (otherwise
known as potential customers) to his site every day. I'm sure he'll
understand.

Cheers,
Nige

 

[dorayme]

My definition for releasing software:

Alpha: Expected to have problems;
Beta: Not expected to have no problems;
Release: Expected to have no problems.

Perhaps this is an improvement:

Alpha: Known to have problems;
Beta: Expected to have problems;
Release: Not expected to have problems.

To appreciate this as an improvement, it is important to
understand that knowing that there are x does not entail knowing
the value of x.

 

[Sherm Pendley]

My definition for releasing software:

Alpha: Expected to have problems;
Beta: Not expected to have no problems;
Release: Expected to have no problems.

The most common definition is that Alpha is missing features, Beta is
feature complete but may still have bugs, and Release isn't supposed to
have bugs. (In practice some bugs do usually escape from beta testing.
Nobody's perfect...)

Apple have more programmers than me though, so Safari should get there
faster.

Ever read Brooks' "The Mythical Man-Month"?

sherm--