*RANT* Ridiculous EDA software "user license agreements"?

Discussion in 'VHDL' started by license_rant_master, Jul 1, 2004.

  1. I am an ASIC engineer who frequently 'takes work home' with me.
    Recently, I began using ssh to remotely login to our company's
    servers to run some Verilog/VHDL simulations. Launching
    sims (from the UNIX command line) is fairly easy and painless,
    but any kind of interactive (GUI) operations are pitifully
    slow over an WAN/internet connection. In the past, I
    haven't needed to do much more than check on running jobs,
    restart them, then logout. Now, I find the need to do some
    interactive debugging work (waveform viewing, code editing,
    etc.)

    So I thought, ok, I'll just install Linux at home and check
    out a license remotely from the company. The system
    administrator told me "NO!" this is forbidden, due to the license
    agreements of just about every EDA-tool vendor. According to the
    language/legalese of the license-agreement, a license 'seat'
    is tied to a physical location called 'site.'

    There are minor differences among the 'site-radius', but the
    end-result is the same ... no executing the tool on hardware outside
    of the radius:

    Cadence : 1 mile radius within licensed machine-node
    (Sysadmin told me this...didn't double-check myself.)

    Synopsys: 5 mile radius within licensed machine-node
    (couldn't find the agreement, but found this on Solvnet.)

    Model/Mentor: 800 meter (0.5mi) radius within licensed machine-node
    (Download the user's manual for any Modelsim product.)

    ....

    At this point, I think, well alright, most of these EDA tools
    are $100,000 USD and up, so it's reasonable for the vendor to impose
    these terms. EDA companies don't want 1 company buying a huge site-wide
    (100+) licenses, then randomly 'renting' them out over the internet.

    I mentally used this analogy to convince myself this is ok:
    I buy broadband internet service for my household.
    It's "unlimited" for my household -- not my neightborhood or someone
    driving by on a WiFi laptop. Fair enough...

    Since I can't use the company's tools on *my* home machine, I
    started investigating various low-cost Verilog simulators to run
    under Windows. (I can't use Icarus because it fails to compile a
    lot of our company's Verilog RTL.)

    /RANT ON

    1) Modelsim/PE "Personal Edition" -- *exact* same license agreement
    as their premiere Modelsim/SE.

    "Mentor Graphics
    grants to you, subject to payment of appropriate license fees, a
    nontransferable, nonexclusive license to use
    Software solely: (a) in machine-readable, object-code form; (b) for your
    internal business purposes; and (c) on
    the computer hardware or at the site for which an applicable license fee
    is paid, or as authorized by Mentor
    Graphics. A site is restricted to a one-half mile (800 meter) radius."

    *RIDICULOUS* If I were a design-consultant, and my laptop were
    my primary compute platform, how am I supposed to comply with a
    'site' radius? By their language, I can't run Modelsim
    if I drive more than 0.5mi from my home-residence/business?!?

    2) ok, so next I move on to Cadence's "Verilog Desktop"

    Wow, same story -- the language of their license agreement brings
    me to the same conclusion. Install on laptop -- automatic
    non-compliance with their agreement (unless you 'lock down' the
    laptop with a 1-mile chain.) Funny how their salesman now use
    x86-laptops for nearly *all* customer-site product demos?!?

    3) I may investigate Verilogger Pro or Simucad, but I figure why bother.
    I'll probably just end up getting angrier...

    ....

    /RANT OFF

    Any comments?
    What pisses me off the most, is those Cadence/Synopsys/Mentor
    "travelling salesman." They come to our company-site, armed with
    laptops and LCD-projectors -- then show off how a small x86-laptop
    now runs jobs faster than a low-end Sun/IBM RISC workstation.
    These EDAs need to be sued for false advertising. At a minimum,
    someone needs to challenge their ridiculous license agreement
    for products aimed at 'personal' use.

    For now, I've simply told my supervisor 'project schedule slip.'
    And I've given up on doing real work at home (now mostly just
    catching on documentation and inline RTL-comments.)
    license_rant_master, Jul 1, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 04:46:42 GMT, license_rant_master
    <> wrote:

    >I am an ASIC engineer who frequently 'takes work home' with me.
    >Recently, I began using ssh to remotely login to our company's
    >servers to run some Verilog/VHDL simulations. Launching
    >sims (from the UNIX command line) is fairly easy and painless,
    >but any kind of interactive (GUI) operations are pitifully
    >slow over an WAN/internet connection. In the past, I
    >haven't needed to do much more than check on running jobs,
    >restart them, then logout. Now, I find the need to do some
    >interactive debugging work (waveform viewing, code editing,
    >etc.)


    Have you tried tightVNC on maximum compression? The lossy compression
    leads to some visible artefacts on bitmaps (e.g. your modelsim wave
    window), but it's a lot better than anything else I've tried over a
    voice band modem.

    http://www.tightvnc.org/

    Regards,
    Allan.
    Allan Herriman, Jul 1, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. license_rant_master

    Uwe Bonnes Guest

    In comp.arch.fpga license_rant_master <> wrote:
    : I am an ASIC engineer who frequently 'takes work home' with me.
    : Recently, I began using ssh to remotely login to our company's
    : servers to run some Verilog/VHDL simulations. Launching
    : sims (from the UNIX command line) is fairly easy and painless,
    : but any kind of interactive (GUI) operations are pitifully
    : slow over an WAN/internet connection. In the past, I
    : haven't needed to do much more than check on running jobs,
    : restart them, then logout. Now, I find the need to do some
    : interactive debugging work (waveform viewing, code editing,
    : etc.)

    Look at NX. It what LBX (Low Bandwidth X ) promised, but NX
    delivers. Probably not to easy to set yet, but worth a try.

    Bye
    --
    Uwe Bonnes -darmstadt.de

    Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt
    --------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------
    Uwe Bonnes, Jul 1, 2004
    #3
  4. Hi license_rant_master,

    For Mentor Sales Man, that not seems violated their license, because the
    program and the license can be attached to the laptop, or can be
    authorized by them.

    I don't know very well all license aspect but do you said that the
    maximum physical distance between the license server and the computer
    which run the program must be the site-radius, don't you ?

    That strange because I know some worldwide companies which share their
    licenses all around the world (in the different company centers).

    Another question, in the Mentor Graphics license, you have:
    "(c) on the computer hardware or at the site for which an applicable
    license fee is paid, or as authorized by Mentor Graphics."

    If your company provide you a computer which have a license (the
    computer must be the license server for this program too? I don't
    know). That can solve your problem, no ?

    In the license that you give, nothing seems said that you couldn't
    shared the run between different computers, as clusters.

    A last solution can be transmit the result in standard format, and use
    different tools.

    Example:
    * to analyze waveform, you can use the vcd format and gtkwave. The vcd
    format has lot of limitation (i.e. can't handle enumerate type...)
    * to edit vhdl, that depend of what you do. Me I like Xemacs and the
    vhdl-mode. But if you use only schematics that can be a problem.

    The file exchange can be very time consuming, but you are generally
    software independent.

    Bye,
    JaI

    license_rant_master wrote:

    > I am an ASIC engineer who frequently 'takes work home' with me.
    > Recently, I began using ssh to remotely login to our company's
    > servers to run some Verilog/VHDL simulations. Launching
    > sims (from the UNIX command line) is fairly easy and painless,
    > but any kind of interactive (GUI) operations are pitifully
    > slow over an WAN/internet connection. In the past, I
    > haven't needed to do much more than check on running jobs,
    > restart them, then logout. Now, I find the need to do some
    > interactive debugging work (waveform viewing, code editing,
    > etc.)
    >
    > So I thought, ok, I'll just install Linux at home and check
    > out a license remotely from the company. The system
    > administrator told me "NO!" this is forbidden, due to the license
    > agreements of just about every EDA-tool vendor. According to the
    > language/legalese of the license-agreement, a license 'seat'
    > is tied to a physical location called 'site.'
    >
    > There are minor differences among the 'site-radius', but the
    > end-result is the same ... no executing the tool on hardware outside
    > of the radius:
    >
    > Cadence : 1 mile radius within licensed machine-node
    > (Sysadmin told me this...didn't double-check myself.)
    >
    > Synopsys: 5 mile radius within licensed machine-node
    > (couldn't find the agreement, but found this on Solvnet.)
    >
    > Model/Mentor: 800 meter (0.5mi) radius within licensed machine-node
    > (Download the user's manual for any Modelsim product.)
    >
    > ...
    >
    > At this point, I think, well alright, most of these EDA tools
    > are $100,000 USD and up, so it's reasonable for the vendor to impose
    > these terms. EDA companies don't want 1 company buying a huge
    > site-wide (100+) licenses, then randomly 'renting' them out over the
    > internet.
    >
    > I mentally used this analogy to convince myself this is ok:
    > I buy broadband internet service for my household.
    > It's "unlimited" for my household -- not my neightborhood or someone
    > driving by on a WiFi laptop. Fair enough...
    >
    > Since I can't use the company's tools on *my* home machine, I
    > started investigating various low-cost Verilog simulators to run
    > under Windows. (I can't use Icarus because it fails to compile a
    > lot of our company's Verilog RTL.)
    >
    > /RANT ON
    >
    > 1) Modelsim/PE "Personal Edition" -- *exact* same license agreement
    > as their premiere Modelsim/SE.
    >
    > "Mentor Graphics
    > grants to you, subject to payment of appropriate license fees, a
    > nontransferable, nonexclusive license to use
    > Software solely: (a) in machine-readable, object-code form; (b) for
    > your internal business purposes; and (c) on
    > the computer hardware or at the site for which an applicable license
    > fee is paid, or as authorized by Mentor
    > Graphics. A site is restricted to a one-half mile (800 meter) radius."
    >
    > *RIDICULOUS* If I were a design-consultant, and my laptop were
    > my primary compute platform, how am I supposed to comply with a
    > 'site' radius? By their language, I can't run Modelsim
    > if I drive more than 0.5mi from my home-residence/business?!?
    >
    > 2) ok, so next I move on to Cadence's "Verilog Desktop"
    >
    > Wow, same story -- the language of their license agreement brings
    > me to the same conclusion. Install on laptop -- automatic
    > non-compliance with their agreement (unless you 'lock down' the
    > laptop with a 1-mile chain.) Funny how their salesman now use
    > x86-laptops for nearly *all* customer-site product demos?!?
    >
    > 3) I may investigate Verilogger Pro or Simucad, but I figure why bother.
    > I'll probably just end up getting angrier...
    >
    > ...
    >
    > /RANT OFF
    >
    > Any comments?
    > What pisses me off the most, is those Cadence/Synopsys/Mentor
    > "travelling salesman." They come to our company-site, armed with
    > laptops and LCD-projectors -- then show off how a small x86-laptop
    > now runs jobs faster than a low-end Sun/IBM RISC workstation.
    > These EDAs need to be sued for false advertising. At a minimum,
    > someone needs to challenge their ridiculous license agreement
    > for products aimed at 'personal' use.
    >
    > For now, I've simply told my supervisor 'project schedule slip.'
    > And I've given up on doing real work at home (now mostly just
    > catching on documentation and inline RTL-comments.)
    >
    Just an Illusion, Jul 1, 2004
    #4
  5. In article <SGMEc.2916$>,
    license_rant_master <> wrote:

    >According to the language/legalese of the license-agreement, a license
    >'seat' is tied to a physical location called 'site.'


    I've heard that this is to prevent on-site consultants from sharing their
    personal license (or more likely, the consultant's company's license) with
    their customer. Otherwise only ASIC consulting companys would be buying the
    $500K licenses.

    --
    /* (192.74.137.5) */ /* Joseph H. Allen */
    int a[1817];main(z,p,q,r){for(p=80;q+p-80;p-=2*a[p])for(z=9;z--;)q=3&(r=time(0)
    +r*57)/7,q=q?q-1?q-2?1-p%79?-1:0:p%79-77?1:0:p<1659?79:0:p>158?-79:0,q?!a[p+q*2
    ]?a[p+=a[p+=q]=q]=q:0:0;for(;q++-1817;)printf(q%79?"%c":"%c\n"," #"[!a[q-1]]);}
    Joseph H Allen, Jul 1, 2004
    #5
  6. license_rant_master

    Guest

    license_rant_master <> writes:

    > I am an ASIC engineer who frequently 'takes work home' with me.
    > ... According to the
    > language/legalese of the license-agreement, a license 'seat'
    > is tied to a physical location called 'site.'


    Here's a hint: like a lot of things in life, these restrictions are negotiable
    if you are a big enough customer.
    , Jul 1, 2004
    #6
  7. Joseph H Allen wrote:
    > In article <SGMEc.2916$>,
    > license_rant_master <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>According to the language/legalese of the license-agreement, a license
    >>'seat' is tied to a physical location called 'site.'

    >
    >
    > I've heard that this is to prevent on-site consultants from sharing their
    > personal license (or more likely, the consultant's company's license) with
    > their customer. Otherwise only ASIC consulting companys would be buying the
    > $500K licenses.
    >


    or an america and european company could get together and share licenses, with
    a 7-8-9 hour time difference they wouldn't need the licenses at the same time

    I think some companies (big ones) can a special license, I know one that share
    worldwide and I would think they have a pool of licenses

    -Lasse
    Lasse Langwadt Christensen, Jul 1, 2004
    #7
  8. license_rant_master wrote:
    > I am an ASIC engineer who frequently 'takes work home' with me.
    > Recently, I began using ssh to remotely login to our company's
    > servers to run some Verilog/VHDL simulations. Launching

    [SNIP]
    > For now, I've simply told my supervisor 'project schedule slip.'
    > And I've given up on doing real work at home (now mostly just
    > catching on documentation and inline RTL-comments.)



    I'm glad you did speak up ! I wish more people would -
    preferably not anonymously ...

    Here is another free Verilog simulator, you might find
    it will run the more serious verilog jobs:

    http://www.pragmatic-c.com/gpl-cver/

    Runs on Linux ...

    Good Luck !

    Best Regards,
    rudi
    ========================================================
    ASICS.ws ::: Solutions for your ASIC/FPGA needs :::
    ...............::: FPGAs * Full Custom ICs * IP Cores :::
    FREE IP Cores -> http://www.asics.ws/ <- FREE EDA Tools
    Rudolf Usselmann, Jul 1, 2004
    #8
  9. The whole is solved by a notebook being the work machine at
    the expense of reduced performance.

    But yes, the whole is a bit silly.

    Rene


    license_rant_master wrote:
    > I am an ASIC engineer who frequently 'takes work home' with me.
    > Recently, I began using ssh to remotely login to our company's
    > servers to run some Verilog/VHDL simulations. Launching
    > sims (from the UNIX command line) is fairly easy and painless,
    > but any kind of interactive (GUI) operations are pitifully
    > slow over an WAN/internet connection. In the past, I
    > haven't needed to do much more than check on running jobs,
    > restart them, then logout. Now, I find the need to do some
    > interactive debugging work (waveform viewing, code editing,
    > etc.)
    >
    > So I thought, ok, I'll just install Linux at home and check
    > out a license remotely from the company. The system
    > administrator told me "NO!" this is forbidden, due to the license
    > agreements of just about every EDA-tool vendor. According to the
    > language/legalese of the license-agreement, a license 'seat'
    > is tied to a physical location called 'site.'
    >
    > There are minor differences among the 'site-radius', but the
    > end-result is the same ... no executing the tool on hardware outside
    > of the radius:
    >
    > Cadence : 1 mile radius within licensed machine-node
    > (Sysadmin told me this...didn't double-check myself.)
    >
    > Synopsys: 5 mile radius within licensed machine-node
    > (couldn't find the agreement, but found this on Solvnet.)
    >
    > Model/Mentor: 800 meter (0.5mi) radius within licensed machine-node
    > (Download the user's manual for any Modelsim product.)


    [snip]

    > /RANT OFF
    >
    > Any comments?
    Rene Tschaggelar, Jul 1, 2004
    #9
  10. Rene Tschaggelar <> writes:

    > The whole is solved by a notebook being the work machine at
    > the expense of reduced performance.


    I don't think his company is too happy about spending multi $100,000
    for licenses exclusively to a single users notebook...


    Petter
    --
    A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
    Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
    A: Top-posting.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
    Petter Gustad, Jul 1, 2004
    #10
  11. license_rant_master

    Sander Vesik Guest

    In comp.arch.fpga wrote:
    > license_rant_master <> writes:
    >
    > > I am an ASIC engineer who frequently 'takes work home' with me.
    > > ... According to the
    > > language/legalese of the license-agreement, a license 'seat'
    > > is tied to a physical location called 'site.'

    >
    > Here's a hint: like a lot of things in life, these restrictions are negotiable
    > if you are a big enough customer.


    The trend of "unless you are going to fork us over some more megabucks and
    are a large company anyways we will disallow doing resonable things" in
    software licences is rather disturbing.

    --
    Sander

    +++ Out of cheese error +++
    Sander Vesik, Jul 1, 2004
    #11
  12. license_rant_master wrote:

    > Since I can't use the company's tools on *my* home machine, I
    > started investigating various low-cost Verilog simulators to run
    > under Windows. (I can't use Icarus because it fails to compile a
    > lot of our company's Verilog RTL.)


    Hve you filed bug reports? I know the Icarus Verilog bug database
    is getting pretty large :-( but it does get looked at and worked
    down.

    --
    Steve Williams "The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    steve at icarus.com But I have promises to keep,
    http://www.icarus.com and lines to code before I sleep,
    http://www.picturel.com And lines to code before I sleep."
    Stephen Williams, Jul 2, 2004
    #12
  13. license_rant_master

    JJ Guest

    Ever hear of VPN?


    "license_rant_master" <> wrote in message
    news:SGMEc.2916$...
    > I am an ASIC engineer who frequently 'takes work home' with me.
    > Recently, I began using ssh to remotely login to our company's
    > servers to run some Verilog/VHDL simulations. Launching
    > sims (from the UNIX command line) is fairly easy and painless,
    > but any kind of interactive (GUI) operations are pitifully
    > slow over an WAN/internet connection. In the past, I
    > haven't needed to do much more than check on running jobs,
    > restart them, then logout. Now, I find the need to do some
    > interactive debugging work (waveform viewing, code editing,
    > etc.)
    >
    > So I thought, ok, I'll just install Linux at home and check
    > out a license remotely from the company. The system
    > administrator told me "NO!" this is forbidden, due to the license
    > agreements of just about every EDA-tool vendor. According to the
    > language/legalese of the license-agreement, a license 'seat'
    > is tied to a physical location called 'site.'
    >
    > There are minor differences among the 'site-radius', but the
    > end-result is the same ... no executing the tool on hardware outside
    > of the radius:
    >
    > Cadence : 1 mile radius within licensed machine-node
    > (Sysadmin told me this...didn't double-check myself.)
    >
    > Synopsys: 5 mile radius within licensed machine-node
    > (couldn't find the agreement, but found this on Solvnet.)
    >
    > Model/Mentor: 800 meter (0.5mi) radius within licensed machine-node
    > (Download the user's manual for any Modelsim product.)
    >
    > ...
    >
    > At this point, I think, well alright, most of these EDA tools
    > are $100,000 USD and up, so it's reasonable for the vendor to impose
    > these terms. EDA companies don't want 1 company buying a huge site-wide
    > (100+) licenses, then randomly 'renting' them out over the internet.
    >
    > I mentally used this analogy to convince myself this is ok:
    > I buy broadband internet service for my household.
    > It's "unlimited" for my household -- not my neightborhood or someone
    > driving by on a WiFi laptop. Fair enough...
    >
    > Since I can't use the company's tools on *my* home machine, I
    > started investigating various low-cost Verilog simulators to run
    > under Windows. (I can't use Icarus because it fails to compile a
    > lot of our company's Verilog RTL.)
    >
    > /RANT ON
    >
    > 1) Modelsim/PE "Personal Edition" -- *exact* same license agreement
    > as their premiere Modelsim/SE.
    >
    > "Mentor Graphics
    > grants to you, subject to payment of appropriate license fees, a
    > nontransferable, nonexclusive license to use
    > Software solely: (a) in machine-readable, object-code form; (b) for your
    > internal business purposes; and (c) on
    > the computer hardware or at the site for which an applicable license fee
    > is paid, or as authorized by Mentor
    > Graphics. A site is restricted to a one-half mile (800 meter) radius."
    >
    > *RIDICULOUS* If I were a design-consultant, and my laptop were
    > my primary compute platform, how am I supposed to comply with a
    > 'site' radius? By their language, I can't run Modelsim
    > if I drive more than 0.5mi from my home-residence/business?!?
    >
    > 2) ok, so next I move on to Cadence's "Verilog Desktop"
    >
    > Wow, same story -- the language of their license agreement brings
    > me to the same conclusion. Install on laptop -- automatic
    > non-compliance with their agreement (unless you 'lock down' the
    > laptop with a 1-mile chain.) Funny how their salesman now use
    > x86-laptops for nearly *all* customer-site product demos?!?
    >
    > 3) I may investigate Verilogger Pro or Simucad, but I figure why bother.
    > I'll probably just end up getting angrier...
    >
    > ...
    >
    > /RANT OFF
    >
    > Any comments?
    > What pisses me off the most, is those Cadence/Synopsys/Mentor
    > "travelling salesman." They come to our company-site, armed with
    > laptops and LCD-projectors -- then show off how a small x86-laptop
    > now runs jobs faster than a low-end Sun/IBM RISC workstation.
    > These EDAs need to be sued for false advertising. At a minimum,
    > someone needs to challenge their ridiculous license agreement
    > for products aimed at 'personal' use.
    >
    > For now, I've simply told my supervisor 'project schedule slip.'
    > And I've given up on doing real work at home (now mostly just
    > catching on documentation and inline RTL-comments.)
    >
    JJ, Jul 2, 2004
    #13
  14. license_rant_master

    rickman Guest

    JJ wrote:
    >
    > Ever hear of VPN?


    I'm not sure what you are trying to suggest. If you mean he should run
    the programs on an office machine using interface software from home,
    that is what he wants to get away from. If you are talking about
    checking out the license over the network, that is what is forbidden by
    the license.

    What are you suggesting?

    --

    Rick "rickman" Collins


    Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
    removed.

    Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
    Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
    4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
    Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
    rickman, Jul 2, 2004
    #14
  15. On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:21:28 +0200, Lasse Langwadt Christensen
    <> wrote:

    >I think some companies (big ones) can a special license, I know one that share
    >worldwide and I would think they have a pool of licenses


    This was certainly the case when I was at Agilent. We had three
    license server triads (three each in Germany, US and Singapore) that
    served the company's global license needs.

    It sucked a bit that we were in Melbourne, and the closest server was
    several thousand km away. The time taken to acquire a license was so
    long that some users would simply not close the gui (e.g. in Modelsim)
    and use up a license all day even when they didn't need to use the
    tool.

    Regards,
    Allan.
    Allan Herriman, Jul 2, 2004
    #15
  16. license_rant_master

    mx Guest

    Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
    > The whole is solved by a notebook being the work machine at
    > the expense of reduced performance.


    UMMM *NO* the original-poster mentioned somewhere in his rant that
    the license terms of Mentor, Cadence, and Synopsys
    are *tied* to a physical site. Actually the software license is bound
    to 3 specific items:

    a) authorized hardware (license node/server)
    <AND>
    b) physical site (company location, with defined 'distance radius')
    <AND>
    c) the party/persons/company named on the purchase-order

    That's *AND* (not OR.) Change any 1 of the above, and you have to
    contact the vendor to renew/re-validate your license. (This doesn't
    automatically mean you have to *repurchase* the software...)

    (b) Buying a laptop, taking it on the road, and using it to run the
    EDA sofware falls under 'running the software outside of the
    physical site.' All you've done with your laptop, is place
    both the license-server and execution-machine in the same
    machine (your laptop), instead of just taking the execution-machine

    The physical-site limitation is so restrictive, that technically
    speaking, if a customer merely relocates its office more than a
    few miles, their software-liense is invalidated. Obvioualy,
    no EDA-vendor requires the customer to repurchase the software. They
    merely update the license contract with the customer's new (street)
    address.

    (c) If the customer is acquired (purchased) by another company, the
    EDA-software is non-transferrable. Thankfully within industry, the
    standard practice is for the vendor to permit the ownership transfer, as
    long as the new owner continues to pay the maintenance/support contract
    obligations. This is cheaper for the new owner, because they don't
    have to 're-purchase' the licenses (large one-time non-recurring
    expense), rather merely pay the quarterly/yearly support-fee (smaller
    recurring expense.)
    mx, Jul 2, 2004
    #16
  17. license_rant_master

    Marko Guest

    Here is my solution...

    I use ModelSim PE. It's relatively cheap and works well on my PC.
    The license is controlled by a dongle, so I can legally run it on any
    machine I please - including my home computer. I presume the same
    approach will work with ModelSim SE. The dongle works with Windows
    platforms - not sure about Linux.

    If you prefer Cadence or Synopsys, you can explain your situation and
    ask them for a waiver. I'm pretty sure they would agree - if you
    asked before you purchased it. Once they've got your money, it's
    another story.

    I think you can get a free version of ModelSim from Xilinx. I'm not
    sure if you have to buy anything or not. In anycase, your Xilinx FAE
    should be able to set up a free demo. I guess ModelTech will do the
    same with ModelSim.

    Hope this helps.

    BTW, is it possible to buy a "used" VerilogXL license from someone?
    There must be thousands that are no longer being used. I have one.

    Marko





    On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 04:46:42 GMT, license_rant_master
    <> wrote:

    >I am an ASIC engineer who frequently 'takes work home' with me.
    >Recently, I began using ssh to remotely login to our company's
    >servers to run some Verilog/VHDL simulations. Launching
    >sims (from the UNIX command line) is fairly easy and painless,
    >but any kind of interactive (GUI) operations are pitifully
    >slow over an WAN/internet connection. In the past, I
    >haven't needed to do much more than check on running jobs,
    >restart them, then logout. Now, I find the need to do some
    >interactive debugging work (waveform viewing, code editing,
    >etc.)
    >
    >So I thought, ok, I'll just install Linux at home and check
    >out a license remotely from the company. The system
    >administrator told me "NO!" this is forbidden, due to the license
    >agreements of just about every EDA-tool vendor. According to the
    >language/legalese of the license-agreement, a license 'seat'
    >is tied to a physical location called 'site.'
    >
    >There are minor differences among the 'site-radius', but the
    >end-result is the same ... no executing the tool on hardware outside
    >of the radius:
    >
    >Cadence : 1 mile radius within licensed machine-node
    > (Sysadmin told me this...didn't double-check myself.)
    >
    >Synopsys: 5 mile radius within licensed machine-node
    > (couldn't find the agreement, but found this on Solvnet.)
    >
    >Model/Mentor: 800 meter (0.5mi) radius within licensed machine-node
    > (Download the user's manual for any Modelsim product.)
    >
    >...
    >
    >At this point, I think, well alright, most of these EDA tools
    >are $100,000 USD and up, so it's reasonable for the vendor to impose
    >these terms. EDA companies don't want 1 company buying a huge site-wide
    >(100+) licenses, then randomly 'renting' them out over the internet.
    >
    >I mentally used this analogy to convince myself this is ok:
    >I buy broadband internet service for my household.
    >It's "unlimited" for my household -- not my neightborhood or someone
    >driving by on a WiFi laptop. Fair enough...
    >
    >Since I can't use the company's tools on *my* home machine, I
    >started investigating various low-cost Verilog simulators to run
    >under Windows. (I can't use Icarus because it fails to compile a
    >lot of our company's Verilog RTL.)
    >
    >/RANT ON
    >
    >1) Modelsim/PE "Personal Edition" -- *exact* same license agreement
    > as their premiere Modelsim/SE.
    >
    >"Mentor Graphics
    >grants to you, subject to payment of appropriate license fees, a
    >nontransferable, nonexclusive license to use
    >Software solely: (a) in machine-readable, object-code form; (b) for your
    >internal business purposes; and (c) on
    >the computer hardware or at the site for which an applicable license fee
    >is paid, or as authorized by Mentor
    >Graphics. A site is restricted to a one-half mile (800 meter) radius."
    >
    > *RIDICULOUS* If I were a design-consultant, and my laptop were
    > my primary compute platform, how am I supposed to comply with a
    > 'site' radius? By their language, I can't run Modelsim
    > if I drive more than 0.5mi from my home-residence/business?!?
    >
    >2) ok, so next I move on to Cadence's "Verilog Desktop"
    >
    > Wow, same story -- the language of their license agreement brings
    > me to the same conclusion. Install on laptop -- automatic
    > non-compliance with their agreement (unless you 'lock down' the
    > laptop with a 1-mile chain.) Funny how their salesman now use
    > x86-laptops for nearly *all* customer-site product demos?!?
    >
    >3) I may investigate Verilogger Pro or Simucad, but I figure why bother.
    > I'll probably just end up getting angrier...
    >
    >...
    >
    >/RANT OFF
    >
    >Any comments?
    >What pisses me off the most, is those Cadence/Synopsys/Mentor
    >"travelling salesman." They come to our company-site, armed with
    >laptops and LCD-projectors -- then show off how a small x86-laptop
    >now runs jobs faster than a low-end Sun/IBM RISC workstation.
    >These EDAs need to be sued for false advertising. At a minimum,
    >someone needs to challenge their ridiculous license agreement
    >for products aimed at 'personal' use.
    >
    >For now, I've simply told my supervisor 'project schedule slip.'
    >And I've given up on doing real work at home (now mostly just
    >catching on documentation and inline RTL-comments.)
    Marko, Jul 2, 2004
    #17
  18. license_rant_master <> wrote in message
    > /RANT ON
    >
    > 1) Modelsim/PE "Personal Edition" -- *exact* same license agreement
    > as their premiere Modelsim/SE.

    [...]
    > At a minimum,
    > someone needs to challenge their ridiculous license agreement
    > for products aimed at 'personal' use.


    (Disclaimer: IANAL)
    Site wide licenses definitely are licenses and the two companies
    involved can agree basically on any ridiculous licensee term that they
    can up with, but this might not be the case for a personal edition.

    For example if you can manage to buy modelsim PE in a shop or order it
    online without clicking through the license agreement than you just
    made a regular purchase and there is no license agreement involved.
    Even if you click through the license agreement it is very doubtfull
    that it is valid. Basically a purchase is a purchase not matter what
    you call it and the first sale doctrine applies, which means that the
    rightholder can not control the use of an item after the first sale.

    This means that you can move your software around (both from place to
    place on the same computer, but also from computer to computer)
    Also, your company can sell the software to you and you sell it back
    later. There is no way the tool vendor can interfere with that. (for
    purchased, not rented software) Once you have license files for both
    computers you can change ownership easily as often as you want. But
    remember to deinstall the software each time.

    Kolja Sulimma
    Kolja Sulimma, Jul 2, 2004
    #18
  19. license_rant_master

    roller Guest

    "mx" <> escribió en el mensaje
    news:0V4Fc.84714$...
    <snip>
    > (c) If the customer is acquired (purchased) by another company, the
    > EDA-software is non-transferrable.


    and could somebody tell why's that? the furniture guys dont expect the new
    owner of the company to pay them again for the furniture sitting in the
    offices, why would we have to pay then to the software guys?

    >Thankfully within industry, the
    > standard practice is for the vendor to permit the ownership transfer, as
    > long as the new owner continues to pay the maintenance/support contract
    > obligations. This is cheaper for the new owner, because they don't
    > have to 're-purchase' the licenses (large one-time non-recurring
    > expense), rather merely pay the quarterly/yearly support-fee (smaller
    > recurring expense.)
    >


    that's more reasonable...
    roller, Jul 2, 2004
    #19
  20. Actually.. I believe they charge you a license fee if you move sites.. for
    their time and effort of course


    "mx" <> wrote in message
    news:0V4Fc.84714$...
    > Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
    > > The whole is solved by a notebook being the work machine at
    > > the expense of reduced performance.

    >
    > UMMM *NO* the original-poster mentioned somewhere in his rant that
    > the license terms of Mentor, Cadence, and Synopsys
    > are *tied* to a physical site. Actually the software license is bound
    > to 3 specific items:
    >
    > a) authorized hardware (license node/server)
    > <AND>
    > b) physical site (company location, with defined 'distance radius')
    > <AND>
    > c) the party/persons/company named on the purchase-order
    >
    > That's *AND* (not OR.) Change any 1 of the above, and you have to
    > contact the vendor to renew/re-validate your license. (This doesn't
    > automatically mean you have to *repurchase* the software...)
    >
    > (b) Buying a laptop, taking it on the road, and using it to run the
    > EDA sofware falls under 'running the software outside of the
    > physical site.' All you've done with your laptop, is place
    > both the license-server and execution-machine in the same
    > machine (your laptop), instead of just taking the execution-machine
    >
    > The physical-site limitation is so restrictive, that technically
    > speaking, if a customer merely relocates its office more than a
    > few miles, their software-liense is invalidated. Obvioualy,
    > no EDA-vendor requires the customer to repurchase the software. They
    > merely update the license contract with the customer's new (street)
    > address.
    >
    > (c) If the customer is acquired (purchased) by another company, the
    > EDA-software is non-transferrable. Thankfully within industry, the
    > standard practice is for the vendor to permit the ownership transfer, as
    > long as the new owner continues to pay the maintenance/support contract
    > obligations. This is cheaper for the new owner, because they don't
    > have to 're-purchase' the licenses (large one-time non-recurring
    > expense), rather merely pay the quarterly/yearly support-fee (smaller
    > recurring expense.)
    >
    Simon Peacock, Jul 3, 2004
    #20
    1. Advertising

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