Re: Anyone found a good web authoring or newsletter package for executive use?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Isofarro, Jun 23, 2003.

  1. Isofarro

    Isofarro Guest

    Nicolai P. Zwar wrote:

    > The "problem" is
    > "designing" and "layouting" an HTML page with CSS (or until not too long
    > ago, with HTML itself!), and it's there where the problems for novices
    > start,


    With a properly constructed website where the CSS suggests the layout, there
    is no problem with the user editing the content by himself, since the
    presentation is done with the CSS.


    --
    Iso.
    FAQs: http://html-faq.com http://alt-html.org http://allmyfaqs.com/
    Recommended Hosting: http://www.affordablehost.com/
    Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org/
     
    Isofarro, Jun 23, 2003
    #1
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  2. Isofarro

    Jim Kelly Guest

    Iso,

    I'd be interested to know if you have a recommendation for the group in
    question to use? I expect that an orderly hierarchical presentation
    would be essential, with a clean, consistent, elegant style preferred
    over a flashy presentation.

    Also, several have proffered www.namo.com . Any comments?

    Cheers,

    Jim Kelly.


    "Isofarro" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    | Nicolai P. Zwar wrote:
    |
    | > The "problem" is
    | > "designing" and "layouting" an HTML page with CSS (or until not too
    long
    | > ago, with HTML itself!), and it's there where the problems for
    novices
    | > start,
    |
    | With a properly constructed website where the CSS suggests the layout,
    there
    | is no problem with the user editing the content by himself, since the
    | presentation is done with the CSS.
    |
    |
    | --
    | Iso.
    | FAQs: http://html-faq.com http://alt-html.org http://allmyfaqs.com/
    | Recommended Hosting: http://www.affordablehost.com/
    | Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org/
     
    Jim Kelly, Jun 23, 2003
    #2
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  3. "Jim Kelly" <kellwood@compuREMOVE_TO_EMAIL_MEserve.com> wrote in message news:<3ef78451$0$26635$>...
    .. . .
    > Also, several have proffered www.namo.com . Any comments?
    >


    I used to like Namo. In fact, I put up a support site and forum for
    it, in version 3, and beta-tested 4. Now, it's too much like
    DreamWeaver in its complexity and invitation to glitz-experimentation.
    Give your people something like that, and you'll have a whole new
    career supporting their content-irrelevant formatting adventures.

    ---- jerry (http://hytext.com)
     
    Jerry Muelver, Jun 24, 2003
    #3
  4. Re: Anyone found a good web authoring or newsletter package for executiveuse?

    Jerry Muelver wrote:
    > "Jim Kelly" <kellwood@compuREMOVE_TO_EMAIL_MEserve.com> wrote in message news:<3ef78451$0$26635$>...
    > . . .
    >
    >>Also, several have proffered www.namo.com . Any comments?
    >>

    >
    > I used to like Namo. In fact, I put up a support site and forum for
    > it, in version 3, and beta-tested 4. Now, it's too much like
    > DreamWeaver in its complexity and invitation to glitz-experimentation.
    > Give your people something like that, and you'll have a whole new
    > career supporting their content-irrelevant formatting adventures.


    I've been looking at Macromedia Contribute these last few days. It is
    sufficiently simple that newbie users can work with it. And a sensible
    permissions system can prevent newbies from doing too much damage to
    their own site.

    Of course it's not perfect for everybody. And the permissions system is
    purely Contribute-based, there can only be one root FTP account, no
    individual FTP accounts for individual directories. It seems to be based
    on the assumptions that Contribute users aren't smart enough to try and
    crack the permissions system. Oh well.

    Other than that, it seems to be working fine. Once we complete our lab
    tests we'll soon do some human testing 'in the wild'.


    Matthias
     
    Matthias Gutfeldt, Jun 24, 2003
    #4
  5. Re: Anyone found a good web authoring or newsletter package for executiveuse?

    Isofarro wrote:
    > Nicolai P. Zwar wrote:
    >
    >
    >>The "problem" is
    >>"designing" and "layouting" an HTML page with CSS (or until not too long
    >>ago, with HTML itself!), and it's there where the problems for novices
    >>start,

    >
    >
    > With a properly constructed website where the CSS suggests the layout, there
    > is no problem with the user editing the content by himself, since the
    > presentation is done with the CSS.



    Which is why I hope I never have to do a page layout and design with
    HTML gimmicks again. CSS is so much more practical and useful.

    However, Jim's clients were looking for authoring tools to "build" a
    website, so that includes the design.

    Content managment has drastically improved with XHTML and CSS.

    --
    Nicolai Zwar
    http://www.nicolaizwar.com
    (we're late, we know, but we're still closed)
     
    Nicolai P. Zwar, Jun 24, 2003
    #5
  6. Isofarro

    Jim Kelly Guest

    "Nicolai P. Zwar" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    | Isofarro wrote:
    | > Nicolai P. Zwar wrote:
    | >
    | >
    | >>The "problem" is
    | >>"designing" and "layouting" an HTML page with CSS (or until not too
    long
    | >>ago, with HTML itself!), and it's there where the problems for
    novices
    | >>start,
    | >
    | >
    | > With a properly constructed website where the CSS suggests the
    layout, there
    | > is no problem with the user editing the content by himself, since
    the
    | > presentation is done with the CSS.
    |
    |
    | Which is why I hope I never have to do a page layout and design with
    | HTML gimmicks again. CSS is so much more practical and useful.
    |
    | However, Jim's clients were looking for authoring tools to "build" a
    | website, so that includes the design.
    |
    | Content managment has drastically improved with XHTML and CSS.
    |
    | --
    | Nicolai Zwar
    | http://www.nicolaizwar.com
    | (we're late, we know, but we're still closed)

    Hi Nicolai and others,

    Yes, I think it is a 'power' thing. All or nothing. These folk are
    sitting in the wings waiting for the dust to settle so that they can
    present their knowledge in an efficient, effective way. Have you any
    advice for me/them to help get started? Style would be an important
    aspect, so templates and handholding welcome to some extent for
    fast-tracking the learning process, but glamour and flashiness is not a
    priority. We are not dealing with advertising material, more of
    presentation using the finesse of links to cross reference similar
    knowledge.

    I hope that publishing in a clear concise effective manner does not
    require elaborate computing skills for too much longer. Else we will
    alienate some of the people best able to provide the wisdom for
    generations to come. Many folk who are retiring now fall into this
    catagory. Always had teams around them to help. Now on their own. Ready
    to learn what ever is needed, but easily daunted and not as tenacious as
    they used to be.

    Example:
    One lovely fellow (mid fifties) has a massive collection of information
    about his lifelong hobby/passion in aviation. He is a very competent
    accomplished engineer, quite computer literate, but not in a programming
    sense. His email, downloaded files, word & excel files, photos,
    contacts, web-links will all be stored in thoughtfully planned
    directories in their respective applications. Currently frustrated by
    this, he dearly wants to setup his own 'intranet', and to consider later
    publishing his 'knowledge'. Perhaps you may have a relative or
    acquaintance similar? What products and tutorials would you head him/her
    towards to achieve an enjoyable process of compiling all of this
    'knowledge' in an elegant manner, easily searched, and navigated by all
    manner of people for decades to come?

    Btw, I am not a website developer . . but I do share the same dreams as
    my friends and clients in these regards, and want to lead the way where
    I can. We older blokes certainly have learnt that it doesn't pay to
    re-invent the wheel! Been there - done that in earlier times! If there
    is an easier way to do something well, then we want to use it!

    Thank you all for your kind advice, I have a bundle of links to follow
    up on. I have a feeling that some of you could perhaps help shorten the
    list! Please do!

    For the benefit of lurkers to this thread - and future readers, here is
    the short list (from a variety of sources):
    Hopefully some of you folk can quickly eliminate several of them now
    that I have explained myself more clearly?

    WikiWriter http://hytext.com

    www.Namo.com Namo WebEditor v5.5

    www.coffeecup.com HTML

    Ms FrontPage 2002 (2003 soon)
    http://www.microsoft.com/office/preview/frontpage/guide.asp

    HTML-Kit http://www.chami.com/html-kit/

    AceHTML Pro http://www.visicommedia.com/acehtml/

    1st Page 2000 v2 http://www.evrsoft.com/

    Macromedia HomeSite
    http://www.macromedia.com/software/homesite/

    Macromedia Contribute
    http://www.macromedia.com/software/contribute/

    "Blogging" software (none suggested as yet).

    Thanks again, your advice and time is appreciated,

    Jim Kelly.
     
    Jim Kelly, Jun 24, 2003
    #6
  7. Isofarro

    Isofarro Guest

    Isofarro, Jun 24, 2003
    #7
  8. Isofarro

    Frogleg Guest

    >Jim Kelly wrote:

    >[snip]
    >
    >
    >> Example:
    >> One lovely fellow (mid fifties) has a massive collection of information
    >> about his lifelong hobby/passion in aviation. He is a very competent
    >> accomplished engineer, quite computer literate, but not in a programming
    >> sense. His email, downloaded files, word & excel files, photos,
    >> contacts, web-links will all be stored in thoughtfully planned
    >> directories in their respective applications. Currently frustrated by
    >> this,


    ?? He's frustrated by planning to organize his data and mail files?
    I'm not trying to be sarcastic -- I just don't understand your
    wording.

    >> he dearly wants to setup his own 'intranet', and to consider later
    >> publishing his 'knowledge'. Perhaps you may have a relative or
    >> acquaintance similar?


    Yep. Had a friend who got his first machine and asked me how to put
    all the brochures, newspaper articles, how-to booklets, product
    manuals, etc. he'd been collecting in filing cabinets "on the
    computer." I explained something about scanning, the difference
    between text and images, a little about OCR, and some vague references
    to databases and information retrieval. I realize your "lovely fellow"
    isn't quite in this category, but a desire to "put everything on the
    web" with a single software product and not much work or knowledge
    isn't too far afield.

    >> What products and tutorials would you head him/her
    >> towards to achieve an enjoyable process of compiling all of this
    >> 'knowledge' in an elegant manner, easily searched, and navigated by all
    >> manner of people for decades to come?


    Tell him to write a book. With a good index. No kidding. If he indeed
    has a wealth of knowledge, good organizational skills, and a unique
    perspective, he probably could do a decent one. If he just has an
    avation data collection, it's probably already available on the web.
    "...compiling all of this 'knowledge' in an elegant manner, easily
    searched, and navigated by all manner of people for decades to come"
    is practically the definition of a book. A personal intranet will need
    to be retooled in 3 years. Or less
     
    Frogleg, Jun 25, 2003
    #8
  9. Isofarro

    Jim Kelly Guest

    >>Tell him to write a book<<

    Come on!! Who reads reference books these days?? yes they look great on
    the shelf but . . .

    Surely we are moving towards taking advantage of computers to help with
    the collation of knowledge far better than any book. The last few 1,000
    pg books I bought on computer topics were a dead loss. Poorly indexed,
    out of date before they became widely available, and not kept up-to-date
    as a website can be.

    Perhaps I am looking in the wrong newsgroup, the more I think about this
    it is an electronic collection (book??) of technical info that is
    needed.

    Books are ok on the coffee table, or where there are lots of glossy
    photos to show off, but that's about it, except of course for fiction
    where the art is in captivating the audience rather than teaching or
    providing info.

    my 2c . .

    Cheers,

    Jim Kelly
     
    Jim Kelly, Jun 26, 2003
    #9
  10. Isofarro

    Jim Kelly Guest

    >>You've left out the most appropriate solution offered to you:
    templates.<<
    (Headless)

    OK, I'll bite . . which products are augmented with a good set of
    templates . . ??

    Jim
     
    Jim Kelly, Jun 26, 2003
    #10
  11. Isofarro

    Headless Guest

    "Jim Kelly" <kellwood@compuREMOVE_TO_EMAIL_MEserve.com> wrote:

    >>>You've left out the most appropriate solution offered to you:

    >templates.<<
    >
    >OK, I'll bite . . which products are augmented with a good set of
    >templates . . ??


    No "products" required. Templates also come as pre made designs to which
    you simply add the content.

    Do a Google for "website templates", thousands available.


    Headless
     
    Headless, Jun 26, 2003
    #11
  12. Re: Anyone found a good web authoring or newsletter package for executiveuse?

    Jim Kelly wrote:
    > | But most importantly, good web design is much more related to clear
    > | thinking, taste, and imagination, than it is to good programming
    > | skills.
    > | Nicolai Zwar
    >
    > Thanks for your thoughtful comments Nicolai . . much appreciated. I'm
    > glad you made that comment because I think the people concerned are well
    > equipped to tackle the task. The 'tool' to help with their learning
    > (which they are eager to do if efficient and productive) needs to take
    > care of the mechanics of formatting, etc.
    > We need look no further than this page
    > http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/
    > to see that I can't read the body text on my 21" display (xp-pro/ie6sp1)
    > because the frame at the right sits over the top of the text (ie the
    > text scrolling is bad). Why is this so hard to get right??? even for
    > this organisation???
    > www.coffeecup.com HTML
    > HTML-Kit http://www.chami.com/html-kit/
    > AceHTML Pro http://www.visicommedia.com/acehtml/
    > 1st Page 2000 v2 http://www.evrsoft.com/


    Oh, but they DO get it right - it's your browser that gets it wrong
    (what version are you using?). This nicely demonstrates the current CSS
    debacle: It's a wonderful idea, but no browser on earth supports all of
    it completely and correctly.

    And that makes it extremely difficult for any tool to take care of the
    mechanics of layout and formatting.

    There are two solutions, I think. One is to hire a professional to
    produce the templates (graphics, CSS, etc), and then let your friends
    work within those templates. This is the system we use here at our
    office - we make the templates, the users (secretarias, MDs,
    technicians, etc) fill them with content. I don't know whether any of
    the tools on the above list can work with templates.

    The other solution: Make sure your friends only use 'simple' and
    well-supported layouts, so they don't get frustrated with the awful
    results they might see in some browsers.


    Matthias
     
    Matthias Gutfeldt, Jun 27, 2003
    #12
  13. Re: Anyone found a good web authoring or newsletter package for executiveuse?

    Matthias Gutfeldt wrote:

    > Oh, but they DO get it right - it's your browser that gets it wrong
    > (what version are you using?). This nicely demonstrates the current CSS
    > debacle: It's a wonderful idea, but no browser on earth supports all of
    > it completely and correctly.


    Exactly, and it's precisely this fact that makes a working knowledge of
    (X)HTML and CSS and the way these are supported by the various browsers
    indispensable if you want to do some serious web publishing. And since
    the standards and browsers are still changing (and will continue to
    change), this obstacle is not going away any time soon.
    Keep in mind, Jim, that your clients may produce something that looks
    and works great on their own system but may look measly and broken on
    somebody elses screen.


    --
    Nicolai Zwar
     
    Nicolai P. Zwar, Jun 27, 2003
    #13
  14. Isofarro

    Jim Kelly Guest

    Re: Anyone found a good web authoring or newsletter package for executive use?

    "Nicolai P. Zwar" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    | Keep in mind, Jim, that your clients may produce something that looks
    | and works great on their own system but may look measly and broken on
    | somebody elses screen.

    I find this quite deflating. Sadly, I had assumed that the tools one
    pays for would take away the need to do the endless testing that getting
    this right requires. Seems that information publishing in this medium
    has not matured to a point where taking reasonable care gets the job
    done nicely. Fancy the site http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/
    getting it wrong on a stock standard Windows XP pc using Internet
    Explorer!

    Cheers,

    Jim Kelly.
     
    Jim Kelly, Jun 27, 2003
    #14
  15. Re: Anyone found a good web authoring or newsletter package for executiveuse?

    Jim Kelly wrote:
    > "Nicolai P. Zwar" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > | Keep in mind, Jim, that your clients may produce something that looks
    > | and works great on their own system but may look measly and broken on
    > | somebody elses screen.
    >
    > I find this quite deflating. Sadly, I had assumed that the tools one
    > pays for would take away the need to do the endless testing that getting
    > this right requires. Seems that information publishing in this medium
    > has not matured to a point where taking reasonable care gets the job
    > done nicely.



    The problem is not that Internet information publishing has not matured
    enough, rather the opposite is true: the medium is still evolving and
    maturing, at an amazing rate at that, and as soon as one tool gets a
    particular status quo down pat a newer version of that standard is
    always just around the corner. Browsers, XTML specifications, CSS
    specificatons, etc. are continually updated and revised. That is not a
    bad thing, especially since in its latest incarnations the (X)HTML
    specifications are very flexible and offer an enormous amount of
    compatibility with possible future versions of specifications and
    extensions. But it means that various browsers may interpret various
    specifications differently (or not at all... it'll still be another
    browser generation -- perhaps two, hopefully not? -- until all the CSS 2
    specs will fully implemented in all browsers.).


    > Fancy the site http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/
    > getting it wrong on a stock standard Windows XP pc using Internet
    > Explorer!


    Well, it is not really W3.org that got it wrong, but rather the IE 6.
    The site uses some CSS specifications that the IE doesn't as of yet
    interpret quite correctly; the site looks fine in Netscape 7/Mozilla and
    Opera.

    Please don't be disheartened, Jim. The PC you are using now is likely to
    have much more power than the one you were using five years ago, and the
    options for information publishing you have now are far more powerful
    than the ones you had five years ago.
    And designing a web page that presents its content in a logical, well
    structured and pleasing format does _not_ require sizable portions of
    programming skills, nor does it require extensive testing sessions.
    Honestly not. Take my word for it. It's only for the "bells and whistle"
    thing where you need to go the extra mile.

    --
    Nicolai Zwar
    http://www.nicolaizwar.com
    (we're late, we know, and we're still closed)
     
    Nicolai P. Zwar, Jun 28, 2003
    #15
  16. Isofarro

    Jim Kelly Guest

    Re: Anyone found a good web authoring or newsletter package for executive use?

    "Nicolai P. Zwar" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    | And designing a web page that presents its content in a logical, well
    | structured and pleasing format does _not_ require sizable portions of
    | programming skills, nor does it require extensive testing sessions.

    (these words sums up our needs really nicely Nicolai)


    Ok, I'm listening again . . . for a minute I thought it was all getting
    too hard and hazy! I guess that a good way to get started is by finding
    some examples of sites that fit the bill by adopting this 'classic'
    'keep it simple' approach . . . and see how they do it. Many sites that
    I have browsed to seem to want to include all many of impressive stuff.
    CSS seems important to know, but I'm confused as to which version of
    HTML best fits our purpose?

    Thanks again for your guidance,

    Best wishes,

    Jim.
     
    Jim Kelly, Jun 29, 2003
    #16
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