Re: Boss wants me to program

Discussion in 'Python' started by Adriaan Renting, Jun 29, 2005.

  1. The question was about someone with limited programming experience
    building simple easy to use programs on Windows. This is the niche where
    VB and Delphi realy shine. Python with TkInter is kind of o.k., I realy
    like Python+PyQt+Eric3+QtDesigner, but currently that only works with a
    commercial licence of Qt on Windows, that's why, on Windows, I'd
    recommend VB (maybe Delphi) for small projects.
    This doesn't mean I would recommend VB for everything. For large
    projects C++ or java can both be far superior, depending on needs and
    available tools and libraries. I realy like Python for small projects on
    Linux. Both VB and Python are easier to learn as the more powerful
    languages, the price is that they lack features that make it easier to
    manage large and complex projects.

    If there is one thing I want to advise, is to get some education, at
    least buy a few good books, but only 20+ years of experience can
    sometimes substitute for a few good programming classes. If they teach
    how to write maintainable code, software design, efficient sorting
    algorithms, user interface design, security, etc. then you're on to
    something. Courses focussing on a single language often don't teach you
    these general programming proinciples.

    I think it's important to know how stuff works behind the scenes to some
    extent. But I realy like to use all the hard work other people have done
    for me.
    I prefer QPrinter.print(MyEditor.lines())
    to having to push the bits out the LPT myself.

    I prefer TMessageBox->Question("Do you realy want to quit")
    to having to MOV the bits to my video memory myself.

    I realy prefer a WYSIWYG UI design tool
    to having to code BUTTON(120, 123, 123, 335, -1, NULL, doButton, "Push",
    "push this button")

    Why?
    Because people already figured out a way to do that, saving me time, so
    I can finish my project on schedule or spend my time on something else.

    P.S. I share your worries about the dwindling number of people that
    actually have the technical know-how to run our increasingly complex
    society. I think it has to do with our society mainly rewarding
    charismatic people, and a lack of organisation among the more technical
    professions. We should have a bar exam for all programmers!
    About teaching in the exact sciences: I think we need a more hands-on
    applied approach, to some extent this holds for the entire school
    system. I'll stop here, or this will become a long OT rant.

    Adriaan Renting | Email:
    ASTRON | Phone: +31 521 595 217
    P.O. Box 2 | GSM: +31 6 24 25 17 28
    NL-7990 AA Dwingeloo | FAX: +31 521 597 332
    The Netherlands | Web: http://www.astron.nl/~renting/
    >>> phil <> 06/28/05 8:04 PM >>>

    >
    > You are quite correct to point out how much better it is to know what

    is
    > going on behind the scenes. But heck, once you know how to extract

    square
    > roots - you need to let the computer do it!
    >
    > GUI interfaces should be the same deal!
    > Thomas Bartkus
    >

    I think I pretty much agree. I essentially code my own gui builder

    but in text files.

    I just think it is really important to emphasise the operative
    "but once you know how" in your comments.

    Then some would counter with "oh, so we should code everthing
    in assembler?" Ouch. No, I will admit there is judgement
    required. Everything should be done the easiest way, with the
    qualification that you need to understand how using someone
    else's shortcut leaves you vulnerable.

    This guy is trying to get started and looking for our advice and
    I saw most of the advice leaning towrd VB (aarrgh!) and I thought
    I should give him other food for thought.

    I'm going to take this opportunity for a short rant.
    <rant>
    I believe our society ( I'm an old fart) is drifting toward
    a VERY small percentage of people knowing, caring or even
    being curious about "how stuff works". I teach high school
    geometry and am APPALLED at the apathy. I am concerned about
    the future of this nation, economically, but spirtually as well.
    So, this influences my advice. Know how your stuff works if
    it is reasonable.
    Tom Wolfe talked in a book about two kinds of kids.
    Those that play video games and those that make video games,
    and the numbers of the latter is shrinking.
    </rant>





    --
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
     
    Adriaan Renting, Jun 29, 2005
    #1
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  2. Adriaan Renting

    Harry George Guest

    "Adriaan Renting" <> writes:
    [snip]
    > This doesn't mean I would recommend VB for everything. For large
    > projects C++ or java can both be far superior, depending on needs and
    > available tools and libraries. I realy like Python for small projects on
    > Linux. Both VB and Python are easier to learn as the more powerful
    > languages, the price is that they lack features that make it easier to
    > manage large and complex projects.
    >

    [snip]

    What is a large project, and what is Python missing that C++ and Java
    have for such tasks?

    --

    6-6M21 BCA CompArch Design Engineering
    Phone: (425) 294-4718
     
    Harry George, Jun 29, 2005
    #2
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  3. Adriaan Renting

    Peter Hansen Guest

    Harry George wrote:
    > "Adriaan Renting" <> writes:
    >>Both VB and Python are easier to learn as the more powerful
    >>languages, the price is that they lack features that make it easier to
    >>manage large and complex projects.

    >
    > What is a large project, and what is Python missing that C++ and Java
    > have for such tasks?


    But C++ and Java have features that *management* likes, thus making it
    "easier to manage large projects". (That says nothing about whether or
    not it makes it easier to produce quality code, successful projects,
    happy customers, large profits, or any such silly things... just that
    it's "easier to manage". ;-)

    Less facetiously: I have managed a large Python project or three, and
    several large C++ projects (and, thankfully, no large Java projects) and
    found Python quite up to the task. In fact, if anything the C++
    projects ended up more in danger of succumbing to the sheer weight of
    the code than did the Python projects. But I attribute this more to the
    fact that we had evolved to using agile approaches with the Python
    projects than to any of those special features either present or lacking
    in C++.

    Ultimately, manageability of a project is far and away more about the
    people involved and the techniques used than it is about any single
    technology involved.

    -Peter
     
    Peter Hansen, Jun 29, 2005
    #3
  4. Adriaan Renting

    Mike Meyer Guest

    "Adriaan Renting" <> writes:
    > I realy prefer a WYSIWYG UI design tool
    > to having to code BUTTON(120, 123, 123, 335, -1, NULL, doButton, "Push",
    > "push this button")


    With a modern GUI library, it's more like:

    buttonBox.addWidget(Button("&New", my, "new"))

    and your button is added to the buttonbox. Anything that requires you
    to specify the location exactly (whether in a WYSISOWYG GUI tool or
    code) is fundamentally broken.

    <mike
    --
    Mike Meyer <> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
    Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.
     
    Mike Meyer, Jun 30, 2005
    #4
  5. Adriaan Renting

    Harry George Guest

    Peter Hansen <> writes:

    > Harry George wrote:
    > > "Adriaan Renting" <> writes:
    > >>Both VB and Python are easier to learn as the more powerful
    > >>languages, the price is that they lack features that make it easier to
    > >>manage large and complex projects.

    > > What is a large project, and what is Python missing that C++ and Java
    > > have for such tasks?

    >
    > But C++ and Java have features that *management* likes, thus making it
    > "easier to manage large projects". (That says nothing about whether
    > or not it makes it easier to produce quality code, successful
    > projects, happy customers, large profits, or any such silly
    > things... just that it's "easier to manage". ;-)
    >
    > Less facetiously: I have managed a large Python project or three, and
    > several large C++ projects (and, thankfully, no large Java projects)
    > and found Python quite up to the task. In fact, if anything the C++
    > projects ended up more in danger of succumbing to the sheer weight of
    > the code than did the Python projects. But I attribute this more to
    > the fact that we had evolved to using agile approaches with the Python
    > projects than to any of those special features either present or
    > lacking in C++.
    >
    > Ultimately, manageability of a project is far and away more about the
    > people involved and the techniques used than it is about any single
    > technology involved.
    >
    > -Peter


    That's our experience too (and the reason I asked). I wonder if the
    OP will respond.


    --

    6-6M21 BCA CompArch Design Engineering
    Phone: (425) 294-4718
     
    Harry George, Jun 30, 2005
    #5
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