Re: Checking a Number for Palindromic Behavior

Discussion in 'Python' started by Gary Herron, Oct 18, 2009.

  1. Gary Herron

    Gary Herron Guest

    Benjamin Middaugh wrote:
    > Thanks to everyone who helped with my query on reversing integers. I
    > have one more simple problem I'm having trouble solving. I want to
    > check a number for palindromic behavior (reading the same backwards
    > and forwards). So if I have an integer 1457 it can tell me this is not
    > the same from both ends but 1551 is. I think the simplest way would be
    > to work inwards from both ends checking digits for equality, but I
    > don't know enough (yet) to do this.
    >
    > All help is much appreciated.
    >
    > Benjamin


    This problem (and the OP's previous problem) are probably homework
    problems. If so, it was unethical for the student to ask for a
    solution here, and it was careless of several responders to provide a
    solution. Let's not make the same mistake this time.

    Gary Herron


    --
    Gary Herron, PhD.
    Department of Computer Science
    DigiPen Institute of Technology
    (425) 895-4418
     
    Gary Herron, Oct 18, 2009
    #1
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  2. Gary Herron

    gslindstrom Guest

    On Oct 18, 5:56 pm, Gary Herron <> wrote:
    > Benjamin Middaugh wrote:
    > > Thanks to everyone who helped with my query on reversing integers. I
    > > have one more simple problem I'm having trouble solving. I want to
    > > check a number for palindromic behavior (reading the same backwards
    > > and forwards). So if I have an integer 1457 it can tell me this is not
    > > the same from both ends but 1551 is. I think the simplest way would be
    > > to work inwards from both ends checking digits for equality, but I
    > > don't know enough (yet) to do this.

    >
    > > All help is much appreciated.

    >
    > > Benjamin

    >
    > This problem (and the OP's previous problem) are probably homework
    > problems.   If so, it was unethical for the student to ask for a
    > solution here, and it was careless of several responders to provide a
    > solution.   Let's not make the same mistake this time.
    >
    > Gary Herron


    Could be. Or, like me, they could be working the Project Euler
    problems. IIRC, many of the solutions involve checking for this type
    of thing. I'd like to see the OP's work before we give our solutions,
    though.

    --greg
     
    gslindstrom, Oct 19, 2009
    #2
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  3. Gary Herron

    Ethan Furman Guest

    gslindstrom wrote:
    > On Oct 18, 5:56 pm, Gary Herron <> wrote:
    >
    >>Benjamin Middaugh wrote:
    >>
    >>>Thanks to everyone who helped with my query on reversing integers. I
    >>>have one more simple problem I'm having trouble solving. I want to
    >>>check a number for palindromic behavior (reading the same backwards
    >>>and forwards). So if I have an integer 1457 it can tell me this is not
    >>>the same from both ends but 1551 is. I think the simplest way would be
    >>>to work inwards from both ends checking digits for equality, but I
    >>>don't know enough (yet) to do this.

    >>
    >>>All help is much appreciated.

    >>
    >>>Benjamin

    >>
    >>This problem (and the OP's previous problem) are probably homework
    >>problems. If so, it was unethical for the student to ask for a
    >>solution here, and it was careless of several responders to provide a
    >>solution. Let's not make the same mistake this time.
    >>
    >>Gary Herron

    >
    >
    > Could be. Or, like me, they could be working the Project Euler
    > problems. IIRC, many of the solutions involve checking for this type
    > of thing. I'd like to see the OP's work before we give our solutions,
    > though.
    >
    > --greg


    Absolutely. I have no issues asking for or receiving help for
    apparently simple problems, but a description of what has been tried,
    preferably with code snippets and results, should be included with the
    request.

    ~Ethan~
     
    Ethan Furman, Oct 19, 2009
    #3
  4. Gary Herron

    Guest

    On Oct 19, 12:41 pm, Ethan Furman <> wrote:
    > gslindstrom wrote:
    > > On Oct 18, 5:56 pm, Gary Herron <> wrote:

    >
    > >>Benjamin Middaugh wrote:

    >
    > >>>Thanks to everyone who helped with my query on reversing integers. I
    > >>>have one more simple problem I'm having trouble solving. I want to
    > >>>check a number for palindromic behavior (reading the same backwards
    > >>>and forwards). So if I have an integer 1457 it can tell me this is not
    > >>>the same from both ends but 1551 is. I think the simplest way would be
    > >>>to work inwards from both ends checking digits for equality, but I
    > >>>don't know enough (yet) to do this.

    >
    > >>>All help is much appreciated.

    >
    > >>>Benjamin

    >
    > >>This problem (and the OP's previous problem) are probably homework
    > >>problems.   If so, it was unethical for the student to ask for a
    > >>solution here, and it was careless of several responders to provide a
    > >>solution.   Let's not make the same mistake this time.

    >
    > >>Gary Herron

    >
    > > Could be.  Or, like me, they could be working the Project Euler
    > > problems.  IIRC, many of the solutions involve checking for this type
    > > of thing.  I'd like to see the OP's work before we give our solutions,
    > > though.

    >
    > > --greg

    >
    > Absolutely.  I have no issues asking for or receiving help for
    > apparently simple problems, but a description of what has been tried,
    > preferably with code snippets and results, should be included with the
    > request.
    >
    > ~Ethan~


    I agree such info *should* be included, but if it is
    relatively clear what the poster is asking about, and
    I can answer without such info, I will do so (although
    perhaps while mentioning that the next time including
    such info would be helpful, if no one else had pointed
    this out.) People in this group can be pissy enough
    without my adding to it by insisting a poster jump
    though some hoops before I'll spend my precious time
    answering. Another factor is an answer posted here
    is not only to the benefit of the questioner, but
    also to the benefit of many other silent readers
    who shouldn't be penalized due to the faults of the
    questioner.
     
    , Oct 19, 2009
    #4
  5. Gary Herron

    Ethan Furman Guest

    wrote:
    > On Oct 19, 12:41 pm, Ethan Furman <> wrote:
    >
    >>gslindstrom wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Oct 18, 5:56 pm, Gary Herron <> wrote:

    >>
    >>>>Benjamin Middaugh wrote:

    >>
    >>>>>Thanks to everyone who helped with my query on reversing integers. I
    >>>>>have one more simple problem I'm having trouble solving. I want to
    >>>>>check a number for palindromic behavior (reading the same backwards
    >>>>>and forwards). So if I have an integer 1457 it can tell me this is not
    >>>>>the same from both ends but 1551 is. I think the simplest way would be
    >>>>>to work inwards from both ends checking digits for equality, but I
    >>>>>don't know enough (yet) to do this.

    >>
    >>>>>All help is much appreciated.

    >>
    >>>>>Benjamin

    >>
    >>>>This problem (and the OP's previous problem) are probably homework
    >>>>problems. If so, it was unethical for the student to ask for a
    >>>>solution here, and it was careless of several responders to provide a
    >>>>solution. Let's not make the same mistake this time.

    >>
    >>>>Gary Herron

    >>
    >>>Could be. Or, like me, they could be working the Project Euler
    >>>problems. IIRC, many of the solutions involve checking for this type
    >>>of thing. I'd like to see the OP's work before we give our solutions,
    >>>though.

    >>
    >>>--greg

    >>
    >>Absolutely. I have no issues asking for or receiving help for
    >>apparently simple problems, but a description of what has been tried,
    >>preferably with code snippets and results, should be included with the
    >>request.
    >>
    >>~Ethan~

    >
    >
    > I agree such info *should* be included, but if it is
    > relatively clear what the poster is asking about, and
    > I can answer without such info, I will do so (although
    > perhaps while mentioning that the next time including
    > such info would be helpful, if no one else had pointed
    > this out.) People in this group can be pissy enough
    > without my adding to it by insisting a poster jump
    > though some hoops before I'll spend my precious time
    > answering. Another factor is an answer posted here
    > is not only to the benefit of the questioner, but
    > also to the benefit of many other silent readers
    > who shouldn't be penalized due to the faults of the
    > questioner.


    Your arguments are most persuasive. Consider me convinced.

    Even if the worst-case scenario is true (homework problem, ack!), either
    the poster will learn from the answer in which case all is well, or the
    poster will not, in which case the final exam will show it.

    ~Ethan~
     
    Ethan Furman, Oct 19, 2009
    #5
  6. Gary Herron

    Guest

    On Oct 18, 4:56 pm, Gary Herron <> wrote:
    > Benjamin Middaugh wrote:
    > > Thanks to everyone who helped with my query on reversing integers. I
    > > have one more simple problem I'm having trouble solving. I want to
    > > check a number for palindromic behavior (reading the same backwards
    > > and forwards). So if I have an integer 1457 it can tell me this is not
    > > the same from both ends but 1551 is. I think the simplest way would be
    > > to work inwards from both ends checking digits for equality, but I
    > > don't know enough (yet) to do this.

    >
    > > All help is much appreciated.

    >
    > > Benjamin

    >
    > This problem (and the OP's previous problem) are probably homework
    > problems.   If so, it was unethical for the student to ask for a
    > solution here, and it was careless of several responders to provide a
    > solution.   Let's not make the same mistake this time.


    You think that was homework? Perhaps so but for the record
    here are some posts by some other people who suspected
    homework in the very recent past...

    2009-10-03
    http://groups.google.com/group/comp...6d30170e9?lnk=gst&q=homework#0e74d426d30170e9
    Chris Rebert wrote:
    > Since this sounds like homework,

    wrote:
    > Thanks Chris, Not homework but self learning.


    2009-10-01
    http://groups.google.com/group/comp...ffc1dc5c3?lnk=gst&q=homework#e785984ffc1dc5c3
    Laszlo Nagy wrote:
    > Is this a homework?

    kj wrote:
    > Earlier some other clown alleged that that my original post
    > was homework??? WTF?


    2009-09-27
    http://groups.google.com/group/comp...6d30170e9?lnk=gst&q=homework#0e74d426d30170e9
    John Nagle wrote
    > This looks like a homework assignment.

    dads wrote:
    > No this certainly isn't homework, I'm 29 and in full time work.
     
    , Oct 19, 2009
    #6
  7. On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 13:29:52 -0700, Ethan Furman wrote:

    > Your arguments are most persuasive. Consider me convinced.
    >
    > Even if the worst-case scenario is true (homework problem, ack!), either
    > the poster will learn from the answer in which case all is well, or the
    > poster will not, in which case the final exam will show it.



    As far as I'm concerned, asking for help on homework without being honest
    up-front about it and making an effort first, is cheating by breaking the
    social contract. Anyone who rewards cheaters by giving them the answer
    they want is part of the problem. Whether cheaters prosper in the long
    run or not, they make life more difficult for the rest of us, and should
    be discouraged.

    Don't support cheaters and cheating. Don't buy from spammers, don't
    reward people for bad behaviour, and don't do homework for students
    (hints to help them learn is one thing) unless you know that their school
    allows collaboration. To do otherwise is part of the problem.



    --
    Steven
     
    Steven D'Aprano, Oct 20, 2009
    #7
  8. Gary Herron

    Ethan Furman Guest

    Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    > On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 13:29:52 -0700, Ethan Furman wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Your arguments are most persuasive. Consider me convinced.
    >>
    >>Even if the worst-case scenario is true (homework problem, ack!), either
    >>the poster will learn from the answer in which case all is well, or the
    >>poster will not, in which case the final exam will show it.

    >
    >
    > As far as I'm concerned, asking for help on homework without being honest
    > up-front about it and making an effort first, is cheating by breaking the
    > social contract. Anyone who rewards cheaters by giving them the answer
    > they want is part of the problem. Whether cheaters prosper in the long
    > run or not, they make life more difficult for the rest of us, and should
    > be discouraged.
    >
    > Don't support cheaters and cheating. Don't buy from spammers, don't
    > reward people for bad behaviour, and don't do homework for students
    > (hints to help them learn is one thing) unless you know that their school
    > allows collaboration. To do otherwise is part of the problem.



    If you know that's the situation, absolutely. If you don't, it's a
    judgement call.

    ~Ethan~
     
    Ethan Furman, Oct 20, 2009
    #8
  9. Gary Herron

    Guest

    On 10/19/2009 03:24 PM, wrote:

    > You think that was homework? Perhaps so but for the record
    > here are some posts by some other people who suspected
    > homework in the very recent past...


    Updated...

    2009-10-20
    http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_frm/thread/f7a8c5107e9d27bf#
    Gary Heron wrote:
    > This problem (and the OP's previous problem) are probably homework
    > problems

    Benjamin Middaugh wrote:
    > Actually I was working on a program to test the so-called 196-algorithm
    > as an extracurricular activity.


    2009-10-03
    http://groups.google.com/group/comp...e87cb1896?lnk=gst&q=homework#b6734fce87cb1896
    Chris Rebert wrote:
    > Since this sounds like homework,

    wrote:
    > Thanks Chris, Not homework but self learning.


    2009-10-01
    http://groups.google.com/group/comp...ffc1dc5c3?lnk=gst&q=homework#e785984ffc1dc5c3
    Laszlo Nagy wrote:
    > Is this a homework?

    kj wrote:
    > Earlier some other clown alleged that that my original post
    > was homework??? WTF?


    2009-09-27
    http://groups.google.com/group/comp...6d30170e9?lnk=gst&q=homework#0e74d426d30170e9
    John Nagle wrote
    > This looks like a homework assignment.

    dads wrote:
    > No this certainly isn't homework, I'm 29 and in full time work.
     
    , Oct 20, 2009
    #9
  10. Gary Herron

    Guest

    Why *not* answering a question in comp.lang.python
    because you think it is homework is BAD.

    1) It may look like a homework problem to you but it
    probably isn't.
    See http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/8ac6db43b09fdc92

    2) When you publicly accuse someone of "cheating" (and
    even asking is tantamount to an accusation unless done
    very tactfully), especially without anything more than
    your "feelings" to back it up, you will likely anger
    the poster, contribute to an generally unpleasant
    atmosphere in the newsgroup, and intimidate other
    people who want to ask legitimate questions.

    3) You are not responding only to the original poster;
    there are many other silent readers who are interested
    in the answer and whom you are depriving of knowledge
    by refusing to answer.

    4) When you post a specific solution to a question,
    usually a number of other people will respond with
    alternate or better solutions. While perhaps overkill
    for the original poster who likely will be satisfied
    with any answer, such discussion greatly benefits
    other readers.

    5) Although "working out" an answer oneself is the usual
    goal of homework problems, it is not the only way to
    learn. Often, when one is really stuck, one can learn
    what one is supposed to by seeing the fully worked out
    problem's answer. You, who don't know anything about
    the poster, are not in a position to decide for him/her
    what the best way of learning is. The poster is also
    free to ignore your answer if he/she chooses.

    6) Please don't apply your abstract moral standards to
    the entire rest of the world, knowing nothing about the
    particular circumstances of the poster.

    7) If the poster is determined to cheat, he/she will do
    so with or without your help. Your self-righteous
    stand will serve only to generate the above undesirable
    results without changing the poster's behavior.

    Of course, whether you choose to provide a specific
    answer to something you think is homework, or not,
    is ultimately a personal decision and you are free
    to follow your conscious. Just please don't demand
    that every other participant in this group adopt
    your personal standards.
     
    , Oct 20, 2009
    #10
  11. Gary Herron

    Falcolas Guest

    On Oct 20, 11:18 am, wrote:
    > Why *not* answering a question in comp.lang.python
    > because you think it is homework is BAD.
    >
    > 1) It may look like a homework problem to you but it
    >  probably isn't.
    >  Seehttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/8ac6db43b09fdc92


    Homework comes in many forms - school driven homework should be
    treated the same as self driven research, IMO. You're not doing it to
    be told the answer, you're likely doing it to learn.

    > 2) When you publicly accuse someone of "cheating" (and
    >  even asking is tantamount to an accusation unless done
    >  very tactfully), especially without anything more than
    >  your "feelings" to back it up, you will likely anger
    >  the poster, contribute to an generally unpleasant
    >  atmosphere in the newsgroup, and intimidate other
    >  people who want to ask legitimate questions.


    Arguing with a long standing Usenet and clp traditions are just as
    likely to cause an unpleasant atmosphere.

    > 3) You are not responding only to the original poster;
    >  there are many other silent readers who are interested
    >  in the answer and whom you are depriving of knowledge
    >  by refusing to answer.


    MRAB provided a perfect answer - anybody who wants to know more, or
    could not connect the dots, can always ask for more information.

    > 4) When you post a specific solution to a question,
    >  usually a number of other people will respond with
    >  alternate or better solutions.  While perhaps overkill
    >  for the original poster who likely will be satisfied
    >  with any answer, such discussion greatly benefits
    >  other readers.


    See previous.

    > 5) Although "working out" an answer oneself is the usual
    >  goal of homework problems, it is not the only way to
    >  learn.  Often, when one is really stuck, one can learn
    >  what one is supposed to by seeing the fully worked out
    >  problem's answer.  You, who don't know anything about
    >  the poster, are not in a position to decide for him/her
    >  what the best way of learning is.  The poster is also
    >  free to ignore your answer if he/she chooses.


    Again, if the original, directing answer was not sufficient, the
    original poster is welcome to ask for more information. Doing so will
    likely help them as much as it would help this "silent reader"
    population.

    > 6) Please don't apply your abstract moral standards to
    >  the entire rest of the world, knowing nothing about the
    >  particular circumstances of the poster.


    So, let the poster give the circumstances. We have just as much right
    to question his motives as you have to question ours.

    > 7) If the poster is determined to cheat, he/she will do
    >  so with or without your help.  Your self-righteous
    >  stand will serve only to generate the above undesirable
    >  results without changing the poster's behavior.


    How did MRAB's response negatively affect anybody?

    > Of course, whether you choose to provide a specific
    > answer to something you think is homework, or not,
    > is ultimately a personal decision and you are free
    > to follow your conscious.  Just please don't demand
    > that every other participant in this group adopt
    > your personal standards.


    When you join a long standing community, you're expected to follow
    their conventions. Don't top post, don't do someone else's homework,
    etc.

    Garrick
     
    Falcolas, Oct 20, 2009
    #11
  12. On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:18:55 -0700, rurpy wrote:

    > 6) Please don't apply your abstract moral standards to
    > the entire rest of the world, knowing nothing about the particular
    > circumstances of the poster.


    Perhaps you should apply this rule to yourself, and stop telling us how
    to respond to people who give (in our opinion) indications of being lazy
    and dishonest.

    It's not our responsibility to learn about the poster before answering.
    It's the poster's responsibility to convince us that we should spend our
    valuable time and knowledge helping them. If they don't make the effort,
    well, too bad for them if they're offended. They should get over
    themselves and realize we don't owe them anything -- not even a hearing.




    --
    Steven
     
    Steven D'Aprano, Oct 20, 2009
    #12
  13. Gary Herron

    Guest

    On 10/20/2009 11:48 AM, Falcolas wrote:
    > On Oct 20, 11:18 am, wrote:
    >> Why *not* answering a question in comp.lang.python
    >> because you think it is homework is BAD.


    I got a little over-hyperbolic above and muddied the waters.
    More accurately, this should have been, "Why insisting
    that nobody directly answer a question in comp.lang.python
    because you think it is homework is BAD."
    I think the content of my previous posts made clear that
    if you want to provide an experiential answer to a question,
    that is fine. But please don't assume that is necessarily
    the only style of answer or the best.

    Since this is the rebuttal to several of your points below
    I will refer to it as A1 and reference it below.

    >> 1) It may look like a homework problem to you but it
    >> probably isn't.
    >> Seehttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/8ac6db43b09fdc92

    >
    > Homework comes in many forms - school driven homework should be
    > treated the same as self driven research, IMO. You're not doing it to
    > be told the answer, you're likely doing it to learn.


    As I said in point (5), you are not in a position to
    decide how someone else best learns, even if your guess
    that the question is homework, contrary to the evidence
    in the url, is correct.

    >> 2) When you publicly accuse someone of "cheating" (and
    >> even asking is tantamount to an accusation unless done
    >> very tactfully), especially without anything more than
    >> your "feelings" to back it up, you will likely anger
    >> the poster, contribute to an generally unpleasant
    >> atmosphere in the newsgroup, and intimidate other
    >> people who want to ask legitimate questions.

    >
    > Arguing with a long standing Usenet and clp traditions are just as
    > likely to cause an unpleasant atmosphere.


    Matter of which is the least worst I suppose. As for
    tradition, see below.

    >> 3) You are not responding only to the original poster;
    >> there are many other silent readers who are interested
    >> in the answer and whom you are depriving of knowledge
    >> by refusing to answer.

    >
    > MRAB provided a perfect answer - anybody who wants to know more, or
    > could not connect the dots, can always ask for more information.


    No. Forcing people to beg for bits and pieces of an answer
    one at a time, doled out by a cabal of elite "gurus", is
    humiliating and a disincentive. If you can answer the question,
    do so without all the farting around. If you don't want too,
    or you feel answering in bits and pieces is helpful, fine, do
    that, but don't object to someone else providing a direct
    answer.

    >> 4) When you post a specific solution to a question,
    >> usually a number of other people will respond with
    >> alternate or better solutions. While perhaps overkill
    >> for the original poster who likely will be satisfied
    >> with any answer, such discussion greatly benefits
    >> other readers.

    >
    > See previous.


    Most of what I have learned about python from this group
    I have learned by reading responses to other people's
    questions. I would not in most cases bother to post a
    request for clarification if the answers weren't clear.
    So "see previous" is also my response.

    >> 5) Although "working out" an answer oneself is the usual
    >> goal of homework problems, it is not the only way to
    >> learn. Often, when one is really stuck, one can learn
    >> what one is supposed to by seeing the fully worked out
    >> problem's answer. You, who don't know anything about
    >> the poster, are not in a position to decide for him/her
    >> what the best way of learning is. The poster is also
    >> free to ignore your answer if he/she chooses.

    >
    > Again, if the original, directing answer was not sufficient, the
    > original poster is welcome to ask for more information. Doing so will
    > likely help them as much as it would help this "silent reader"
    > population.


    See previous.

    >> 6) Please don't apply your abstract moral standards to
    >> the entire rest of the world, knowing nothing about the
    >> particular circumstances of the poster.

    >
    > So, let the poster give the circumstances. We have just as much right
    > to question his motives as you have to question ours.


    See A1 at top.

    >> 7) If the poster is determined to cheat, he/she will do
    >> so with or without your help. Your self-righteous
    >> stand will serve only to generate the above undesirable
    >> results without changing the poster's behavior.

    >
    > How did MRAB's response negatively affect anybody?


    See A1 at top.

    >> Of course, whether you choose to provide a specific
    >> answer to something you think is homework, or not,
    >> is ultimately a personal decision and you are free
    >> to follow your conscious. Just please don't demand
    >> that every other participant in this group adopt
    >> your personal standards.

    >
    > When you join a long standing community, you're expected to follow
    > their conventions. Don't top post, don't do someone else's homework,
    > etc.


    This is the only thing you wrote that resonates with me.
    I would never dream of moving to Spain and immediately
    start agitating to end the cruel sport of bullfighting
    (though if it were already a contentious issue I might
    join those already objecting). I would not move to
    France and demand that French people stop drinking wine
    because of the problems alcohol causes. But clp is
    somehow different, even assuming that the no homework
    help rule is actually a tradition as opposed to a few
    dominant personalities and a bunch of wannabe followers.
    Perhaps because "community" is more metaphorical than
    actual in newsgroups? Or perhaps that I expect and
    value diversity of opinion more on the internet than
    in long-established real cultures? Whatever the reason,
    I beleive the restriction of the free flow of information
    resulting from trying to guess a poster's motives for
    asking something is far more damaging overall than the
    results of sometimes providing information that may be
    misused.
     
    , Oct 20, 2009
    #13
  14. Gary Herron

    Guest

    On 10/20/2009 03:16 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    > On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:18:55 -0700, rurpy wrote:
    >
    >> 6) Please don't apply your abstract moral standards to
    >> the entire rest of the world, knowing nothing about the particular
    >> circumstances of the poster.

    >
    > Perhaps you should apply this rule to yourself, and stop telling us how
    > to respond to people who give (in our opinion) indications of being lazy
    > and dishonest.


    Eh? With the exception of the badly worded first
    sentence in that post (which I corrected in another
    response) I have consistently maintained that if you
    feel a piece-meal or non-response is appropriate,
    that is your prerogative.
    From the very post you quote I wrote,

    + Of course, whether you choose to provide a specific
    + answer to something you think is homework, or not,
    + is ultimately a personal decision and you are free
    + to follow your conscious.

    Please stop attributing to me things I did not say.

    > It's not our responsibility to learn about the poster before answering.
    > It's the poster's responsibility to convince us that we should spend our
    > valuable time and knowledge helping them. If they don't make the effort,
    > well, too bad for them if they're offended. They should get over
    > themselves and realize we don't owe them anything -- not even a hearing.


    Nice attitude. Not one I care to adopt though.
     
    , Oct 20, 2009
    #14
  15. Gary Herron

    Lie Ryan Guest

    wrote:
    >>> 1) It may look like a homework problem to you but it
    >>> probably isn't.
    >>> Seehttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/8ac6db43b09fdc92

    >> Homework comes in many forms - school driven homework should be
    >> treated the same as self driven research, IMO. You're not doing it to
    >> be told the answer, you're likely doing it to learn.

    >
    > As I said in point (5), you are not in a position to
    > decide how someone else best learns, even if your guess
    > that the question is homework, contrary to the evidence
    > in the url, is correct.


    Yes we do. If the person wanted a direct and straight answer (like most
    cheaters) for such a simple question (like integer palindrome), googling
    takes less time and efforts compared to posting to a mailing list.

    OTOH, since the poster took the trouble of registering to a newsgroup,
    posting his problem, waiting a few hours for replies, and checking the
    group for replies, requesting clarification, thanking, and getting back
    to normal day activities; this implies that he wanted explanations which
    can only be provided with the more interactive newsgroup instead of a
    relatively static websites.

    >>> 3) You are not responding only to the original poster;
    >>> there are many other silent readers who are interested
    >>> in the answer and whom you are depriving of knowledge
    >>> by refusing to answer.

    >> MRAB provided a perfect answer - anybody who wants to know more, or
    >> could not connect the dots, can always ask for more information.

    >
    > No. Forcing people to beg for bits and pieces of an answer
    > one at a time, doled out by a cabal of elite "gurus", is
    > humiliating and a disincentive. If you can answer the question,
    > do so without all the farting around. If you don't want too,
    > or you feel answering in bits and pieces is helpful, fine, do
    > that, but don't object to someone else providing a direct
    > answer.


    Yes we have the right to complain, because a single post containing a
    direct answer will *destroy the purpose of giving hints*.

    Giving direct answer is too tempting for an OP that originally wanted to
    try to solve by their own. It is too easy to copy and even the most
    determined would have a difficult time to resist.

    If the OP had wanted a direct answer, he should make an explicit note
    about it. When that happen, the OP is not interested in studying about
    the solution anyway and hints are useless.

    Writing a direct answer is much, much, much easier than understanding
    where specifically the OP is having trouble with. We wanted OP to post
    their solution or at least their thought on the problem because we
    wanted to see why the OP is having problems, so we can tailor the reply
    specifically for the OP.

    Not giving direct answers promotes active thinking, which is much more
    important for programmers, direct answer gives rote memorization, which
    is useless for programmers due to sophisticated documentations.

    >>> 4) When you post a specific solution to a question,
    >>> usually a number of other people will respond with
    >>> alternate or better solutions. While perhaps overkill
    >>> for the original poster who likely will be satisfied
    >>> with any answer, such discussion greatly benefits
    >>> other readers.

    >> See previous.

    >
    > Most of what I have learned about python from this group
    > I have learned by reading responses to other people's
    > questions. I would not in most cases bother to post a
    > request for clarification if the answers weren't clear.
    > So "see previous" is also my response.


    If you're still having problems but won't bother to post a request for
    clarification, that means you don't take your *own problem* seriously
    enough.

    >>> Of course, whether you choose to provide a specific
    >>> answer to something you think is homework, or not,
    >>> is ultimately a personal decision and you are free
    >>> to follow your conscious. Just please don't demand
    >>> that every other participant in this group adopt
    >>> your personal standards.

    >> When you join a long standing community, you're expected to follow
    >> their conventions. Don't top post, don't do someone else's homework,
    >> etc.

    >
    > This is the only thing you wrote that resonates with me.
    > I would never dream of moving to Spain and immediately
    > start agitating to end the cruel sport of bullfighting
    > (though if it were already a contentious issue I might
    > join those already objecting). I would not move to
    > France and demand that French people stop drinking wine
    > because of the problems alcohol causes. But clp is
    > somehow different, even assuming that the no homework
    > help rule is actually a tradition


    it actually is, in most (if not all) newsgroups. Most technical forums
    follows this tradition;

    as opposed to a few
    > dominant personalities and a bunch of wannabe followers.


    We ARE all wannabe followers. All humans copy from their elders and, if
    you haven't realized, that is what education is about. Also, tradition
    means "handing over, passing on" (wikipedia), a "dominant personalities
    and a bunch of wannabe followers" fits into that description; the
    culture of the dominant personalities is passed on to the wannabes.

    Improvisations is an evolution, it happens slowly over a
    veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery long period of time. The fundamental nature
    of a community does not change with an overnight revolution; a
    revolution will simply change the skin but the fundamentals will still
    be the same.

    Humans is the most advanced species in the world because we copy our
    ancestors instead of reinventing the wheel all the time. If we hadn't
    copied our ancestors, we will have people inventing fire and wheel all
    the time.

    As a metaphor, which one do you think is better in the long term:
    charities or microcredits?
     
    Lie Ryan, Oct 21, 2009
    #15
  16. Gary Herron

    Guest

    On 10/21/2009 01:40 AM, Lie Ryan wrote:
    > wrote:
    >>>> 1) It may look like a homework problem to you but it
    >>>> probably isn't.
    >>>> Seehttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/8ac6db43b09fdc92
    >>> Homework comes in many forms - school driven homework should be
    >>> treated the same as self driven research, IMO. You're not doing it to
    >>> be told the answer, you're likely doing it to learn.

    >>
    >> As I said in point (5), you are not in a position to
    >> decide how someone else best learns, even if your guess
    >> that the question is homework, contrary to the evidence
    >> in the url, is correct.

    >
    > Yes we do. If the person wanted a direct and straight answer (like most
    > cheaters) for such a simple question (like integer palindrome), googling
    > takes less time and efforts compared to posting to a mailing list.


    In that particular case, yes. However many problem are
    much more difficult to search for. You're also assuming
    that every poster is a perfect decision-maker when deciding
    how to seek help. Sorry, people are not as perfect as you
    think.

    > OTOH, since the poster took the trouble of registering to a newsgroup,
    > posting his problem, waiting a few hours for replies, and checking the
    > group for replies, requesting clarification, thanking, and getting back
    > to normal day activities;


    You are way overstating the effort involved here.
    Especially if the poster has posted to the group before
    usually the only significant effort is writing the message
    (and thinking about the responses of course but that has
    to be done no matter where the poster seeks help.)

    You are also way understating the effort in Googling
    something. I have spent literally days wading through
    thousands of pages of Google results trying to find
    accuate info before.

    > this implies that he wanted explanations which
    > can only be provided with the more interactive newsgroup instead of a
    > relatively static websites.


    No it doesn't imply any such thing. It is exactly this
    narrowness of focus, this inability to see alternate
    explanations, that is leading you to think that
    providing hints is the single one and only right
    way of responding to any simple question on this list.

    They may post here because, ...(ready for this?)...
    they want a direct answer to their question!

    >>>> 3) You are not responding only to the original poster;
    >>>> there are many other silent readers who are interested
    >>>> in the answer and whom you are depriving of knowledge
    >>>> by refusing to answer.
    >>> MRAB provided a perfect answer - anybody who wants to know more, or
    >>> could not connect the dots, can always ask for more information.

    >>
    >> No. Forcing people to beg for bits and pieces of an answer
    >> one at a time, doled out by a cabal of elite "gurus", is
    >> humiliating and a disincentive. If you can answer the question,
    >> do so without all the farting around. If you don't want too,
    >> or you feel answering in bits and pieces is helpful, fine, do
    >> that, but don't object to someone else providing a direct
    >> answer.

    >
    > Yes we have the right to complain,


    Of course. This is usenet (or a very open mailing list
    depending on your perspective.) You can complain or
    say anything you want. As can I. However people will
    pay attention to you or not based on the degree of sense
    you make (in an ideal world) or based on other group-
    dynamic things (in an imperfect world) or a combination
    of both (in the real world).

    > because a single post containing a
    > direct answer will *destroy the purpose of giving hints*.


    Which is precisely the problem, You claim that purpose
    is the single, only, best way of helping the person you are
    answering. I am simply claiming you don't know that, can't
    in a general sense know that. If you want to play teacher
    and provide that style of answer, fine. But since you
    (collective) have demonstrated that you are not even
    able to accurately identify when someone is asking about
    a homework problem (but are still arrogantly willing to
    try), it is pretty reasonable for us "thems" to doubt your
    claims that you know the best way to answer questions
    here. Since you haven't demonstrated your style of
    answers is best, it unreasonable for you to insist
    that it be the only style allowed.

    Please remember, I am only saying that simply answering
    a question, as asked, is not a bad thing. I really
    would have thought this would be pretty uncontentious.
    But then again, this is clp.

    > Giving direct answer is too tempting for an OP that originally wanted to
    > try to solve by their own. It is too easy to copy and even the most
    > determined would have a difficult time to resist.


    Baloney. When I ask a question in any forum I read
    all the answers (although I might only skim those that
    are duplicative, off-topic, or otherwise less relevent
    to my goals). I extract from them all the information
    I can. And if two answers provide the same information,
    what's your problem? Are you angry that someone else
    provided a more effective answer than you thus devaluing
    your effort? Sorry, but that's just life. If it's
    any consolation though, I for one note and appreciate
    all responses, even if they are duplicative or even wrong.

    > If the OP had wanted a direct answer, he should make an explicit note
    > about it.


    If I want *only* indirect answers, I will say so. If I
    want *only* direct answers I will say so, In the absence
    of either I expect that any kind of answers is ok.
    I believe this in normal practice in most forms of human
    communication.
    BTW, are you aware that making *any* demands here on the
    form answers should take is likely to result in some
    hostility?

    > When that happen, the OP is not interested in studying about
    > the solution anyway and hints are useless.


    Again, a completely unjustified conclusion.

    > Writing a direct answer is much, much, much easier than understanding
    > where specifically the OP is having trouble with.


    Yes, I agree that is often true (at least if you leave
    out the "much, much, much" part).

    > We wanted OP to post
    > their solution or at least their thought on the problem because we
    > wanted to see why the OP is having problems, so we can tailor the reply
    > specifically for the OP.


    "We"? Other "we"s have said both in this thread and others
    that "we" want to see the poster's attempts to prove that
    the poster is not simply trying to get his work done for
    him. Maybe you "we"s should get your stories straight?

    But regardless, repeating what I've already said umpteen
    times, fine, ask. What does that have to do with someone
    who simply answers the question that a poster asked?

    > Not giving direct answers promotes active thinking, which is much more
    > important for programmers, direct answer gives rote memorization, which
    > is useless for programmers due to sophisticated documentations.


    Hogwash.

    >>>> 4) When you post a specific solution to a question,
    >>>> usually a number of other people will respond with
    >>>> alternate or better solutions. While perhaps overkill
    >>>> for the original poster who likely will be satisfied
    >>>> with any answer, such discussion greatly benefits
    >>>> other readers.
    >>> See previous.

    >>
    >> Most of what I have learned about python from this group
    >> I have learned by reading responses to other people's
    >> questions. I would not in most cases bother to post a
    >> request for clarification if the answers weren't clear.
    >> So "see previous" is also my response.

    >
    > If you're still having problems but won't bother to post a request for
    > clarification, that means you don't take your *own problem* seriously
    > enough.


    1. Where did I say I was (hypothetically) "having problems"?
    2. Can you think of any other reason besides "not taking
    my own problems seriously enough" that might result in
    my deciding not to post a question to this group?
    3. Do you think that the ability to accurately read a
    post and think logically about it is important when
    try to help by answering questions here?
    4. Do you think that people who demonstrate an inability
    to do this should be trying to dictate how everybody
    else here should respond?

    [...snip interesting but irrelevant diversion into the
    nature of human society and evolution...]

    > As a metaphor, which one do you think is better in the long term:
    > charities or microcredits?


    Both of course. Why on earth would anyone think there
    is a simple, single, best answer for complex problems?
     
    , Oct 21, 2009
    #16
  17. Gary Herron

    Tim Chase Guest

    wrote:
    > On 10/21/2009 01:40 AM, Lie Ryan wrote:
    >> wrote:
    >>>>> 1) It may look like a homework problem to you but it
    >>>>> probably isn't.
    >>>>> Seehttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/8ac6db43b09fdc92
    >>>> Homework comes in many forms - school driven homework should be
    >>>> treated the same as self driven research, IMO. You're not doing it to
    >>>> be told the answer, you're likely doing it to learn.
    >>> As I said in point (5), you are not in a position to
    >>> decide how someone else best learns, even if your guess
    >>> that the question is homework, contrary to the evidence
    >>> in the url, is correct.


    Amusingly, this came along today:
    http://lifehacker.com/5386722/get-it-wrong-before-you-google-to-learn-it-better

    I'd postulate that the same holds for heaving a question out on
    c.l.p without taking at crack at it yourself. Try it, and if you
    fail, take your findings to the great Google or to Usenet. But
    not even trying (or evidencing your effort) is bound to get you
    ignored or derided. Effectively "Hey programmer people, do my
    work for me".

    >> OTOH, since the poster took the trouble of registering to a newsgroup,
    >> posting his problem, waiting a few hours for replies, and checking the
    >> group for replies, requesting clarification, thanking, and getting back
    >> to normal day activities;

    >
    > You are way overstating the effort involved here.
    > Especially if the poster has posted to the group before
    > usually the only significant effort is writing the message
    > (and thinking about the responses of course but that has
    > to be done no matter where the poster seeks help.)


    While some usenet relays throw up more roadblocks than others,
    with both Google Groups and various other usenet hosts, posting
    to a newsgroup is a pretty simple task with little more effort
    than typing in a couple text-boxes.

    > You are also way understating the effort in Googling
    > something. I have spent literally days wading through
    > thousands of pages of Google results trying to find
    > accuate info before.


    This seems more to be a lack of your own google-fu...

    > No it doesn't imply any such thing. It is exactly this
    > narrowness of focus, this inability to see alternate
    > explanations, that is leading you to think that
    > providing hints is the single one and only right
    > way of responding to any simple question on this list.
    >
    > They may post here because, ...(ready for this?)...
    > they want a direct answer to their question!


    The best way to get a direct answer is to show that you've
    already made some effort. Usually this involves including some
    code. It's a newsgroup composed of people volunteering their
    time conversing with others, not a vending-machine thanklessly
    spewing free answers.

    > Which is precisely the problem, You claim that purpose
    > is the single, only, best way of helping the person you are
    > answering. I am simply claiming you don't know that, can't
    > in a general sense know that. If you want to play teacher
    > and provide that style of answer, fine. But since you
    > (collective) have demonstrated that you are not even
    > able to accurately identify when someone is asking about
    > a homework problem (but are still arrogantly willing to
    > try), it is pretty reasonable for us "thems" to doubt your
    > claims that you know the best way to answer questions


    Just because you can find a few examples where intuition was
    wrong doesn't mean it's not the correct approach. Contrariwise,
    it's good evidence that many folks laugh it off and give enough
    context to demonstrate it's not homework (such as . However
    folks clearly do post homework questions to the list (I'm
    particularly amused by the ones that forget to remove the
    question number from the homework they copy&pasted from) and most
    list-members can detect the scent of homework compared to real work.

    > Please remember, I am only saying that simply answering
    > a question, as asked, is not a bad thing.


    My hope then is that these people whom you coddle with spoon-fed
    answers end up working with/for you instead of me.

    -tkc
     
    Tim Chase, Oct 21, 2009
    #17
  18. Gary Herron

    Lie Ryan Guest

    wrote:
    > On 10/21/2009 01:40 AM, Lie Ryan wrote:
    >> wrote:
    >>>>> 1) It may look like a homework problem to you but it
    >>>>> probably isn't.
    >>>>> Seehttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/8ac6db43b09fdc92
    >>>> Homework comes in many forms - school driven homework should be
    >>>> treated the same as self driven research, IMO. You're not doing it to
    >>>> be told the answer, you're likely doing it to learn.
    >>> As I said in point (5), you are not in a position to
    >>> decide how someone else best learns, even if your guess
    >>> that the question is homework, contrary to the evidence
    >>> in the url, is correct.

    >> Yes we do. If the person wanted a direct and straight answer (like most
    >> cheaters) for such a simple question (like integer palindrome), googling
    >> takes less time and efforts compared to posting to a mailing list.

    >
    > In that particular case, yes. However many problem are
    > much more difficult to search for. You're also assuming
    > that every poster is a perfect decision-maker when deciding
    > how to seek help. Sorry, people are not as perfect as you
    > think.


    Read again: "for such a simple question"

    >> this implies that he wanted explanations which
    >> can only be provided with the more interactive newsgroup instead of a
    >> relatively static websites.

    >
    > No it doesn't imply any such thing. It is exactly this
    > narrowness of focus, this inability to see alternate
    > explanations, that is leading you to think that
    > providing hints is the single one and only right
    > way of responding to any simple question on this list.
    >
    > They may post here because, ...(ready for this?)...
    > they want a direct answer to their question!


    Whooaa, I didn't know that...

    Baaakaaa...

    They should just say if they want to.

    >>>>> 3) You are not responding only to the original poster;
    >>>>> there are many other silent readers who are interested
    >>>>> in the answer and whom you are depriving of knowledge
    >>>>> by refusing to answer.
    >>>> MRAB provided a perfect answer - anybody who wants to know more, or
    >>>> could not connect the dots, can always ask for more information.
    >>> No. Forcing people to beg for bits and pieces of an answer
    >>> one at a time, doled out by a cabal of elite "gurus", is
    >>> humiliating and a disincentive. If you can answer the question,
    >>> do so without all the farting around. If you don't want too,
    >>> or you feel answering in bits and pieces is helpful, fine, do
    >>> that, but don't object to someone else providing a direct
    >>> answer.

    >> Yes we have the right to complain,

    >
    > Of course. This is usenet (or a very open mailing list
    > depending on your perspective.) You can complain or
    > say anything you want. As can I. However people will
    > pay attention to you or not based on the degree of sense
    > you make (in an ideal world) or based on other group-
    > dynamic things (in an imperfect world) or a combination
    > of both (in the real world).


    I have nothing to say about that, just let others decide.

    >> Giving direct answer is too tempting for an OP that originally wanted to
    >> try to solve by their own. It is too easy to copy and even the most
    >> determined would have a difficult time to resist.

    >
    > Baloney. When I ask a question in any forum I read
    > all the answers (although I might only skim those that
    > are duplicative, off-topic, or otherwise less relevent
    > to my goals). I extract from them all the information
    > I can. And if two answers provide the same information,
    > what's your problem? Are you angry that someone else
    > provided a more effective answer than you thus devaluing
    > your effort? Sorry, but that's just life. If it's
    > any consolation though, I for one note and appreciate
    > all responses, even if they are duplicative or even wrong.


    Effective for one day does not mean it is also effective for the next
    forty-two years.

    Education is a long term goal, not just a short-sighted, short-term goal
    like to get the highest mark in the exam or finishing an assignment with
    the best mark in the class.

    >> When that happen, the OP is not interested in studying about
    >> the solution anyway and hints are useless.

    >
    > Again, a completely unjustified conclusion.


    Can you justify your own conclusion then? If you haven't realized, the
    burden of proof is on you who opposes the current long-standing ethics.

    >> As a metaphor, which one do you think is better in the long term:
    >> charities or microcredits?

    >
    > Both of course. Why on earth would anyone think there
    > is a simple, single, best answer for complex problems?


    Nope, read again. On the *long term* (as I have stated in the question),
    microcredits is proven to be much more effective to solving poverty. In
    the short term, charities will have much quicker effect but not one that
    is lasting and in fact too much charities makes a lot more problems.

    Education have time as much as your life-time, short term quickie answer
    is discouraged in favor of a longer lasting solution. OTOH, if the OP
    wanted to use the script in the workplace; that is a short term goal
    that can often be justified.

    my .02
     
    Lie Ryan, Oct 21, 2009
    #18
  19. [OT] Supporting "homework" (was: Re: Checking a Number forPalindromic Behavior)

    Steven D'Aprano <> writes on 20 Oct 2009 05:35:18 GMT:
    > As far as I'm concerned, asking for help on homework without being honest
    > up-front about it and making an effort first, is cheating by breaking the
    > social contract. Anyone who rewards cheaters by giving them the answer
    > they want is part of the problem. Whether cheaters prosper in the long
    > run or not, they make life more difficult for the rest of us, and should
    > be discouraged.


    A few days ago, I have read an impressive book: "Albert Jacquard: Mon utopie".
    The author has been a university professor (among others for
    population genectics, a discipline between mathematics and biologie).
    One of the corner therories in his book: mankind has reached the current
    level of development not mainly due to exceptional work by individuals
    but by the high level of cooperation between individuals.

    In this view, asking for help (i.e. seeking communication/cooperation)
    with individual tasks should probably be highly encouraged not discouraged.
    At least, it is highly doubtful that the paradigm "each for himself,
    the most ruthless wins" will be adequate for the huge problems mankind
    will face in the near future (defeating hunger, preventing drastic
    climate changes, natural resources exhaustion, ....); intensive
    cooperation seems to be necessary.

    Dieter
     
    Dieter Maurer, Oct 22, 2009
    #19
  20. Gary Herron

    Guest

    On 10/21/2009 02:56 PM, Tim Chase wrote:
    > wrote:
    >> On 10/21/2009 01:40 AM, Lie Ryan wrote:
    >>> wrote:
    >>>>>> 1) It may look like a homework problem to you but it
    >>>>>> probably isn't.
    >>>>>> Seehttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/8ac6db43b09fdc92
    >>>>> Homework comes in many forms - school driven homework should be
    >>>>> treated the same as self driven research, IMO. You're not doing it to
    >>>>> be told the answer, you're likely doing it to learn.
    >>>> As I said in point (5), you are not in a position to
    >>>> decide how someone else best learns, even if your guess
    >>>> that the question is homework, contrary to the evidence
    >>>> in the url, is correct.

    >
    > Amusingly, this came along today:
    > http://lifehacker.com/5386722/get-it-wrong-before-you-google-to-learn-it-better


    Cool! That's great news! The educational community has
    been arguing for centuries about the best ways to teach
    people. I am glad that Scientific American article has
    finally settled the matter.

    > I'd postulate that the same holds for heaving a question out on
    > c.l.p without taking at crack at it yourself. Try it, and if you
    > fail, take your findings to the great Google or to Usenet. But
    > not even trying (or evidencing your effort) is bound to get you
    > ignored or derided. Effectively "Hey programmer people, do my
    > work for me".


    You're conflating two separate issues. 1) Whether trying
    to write code to solve a problem before seeing working
    code is helpful to learning or not, and 2) Whether you
    are being taken advantage of by being conned into doing
    something for someone else who themselves didn't do as
    much work as you think they should have.

    1) is about helping the poster.
    2) is about you.

    I suspect that 2 is really the most important to you.

    >[...]
    >> You are also way understating the effort in Googling
    >> something. I have spent literally days wading through
    >> thousands of pages of Google results trying to find
    >> accuate info before.

    >
    > This seems more to be a lack of your own google-fu...


    Could be. However the first time I realized the Google
    wasn't the miracle I originally thought it was is when I
    had an Windows NT machine that would sometimes refuse to
    let me delete a file, reporting only the classically
    Windowsesque message, "Unable to delete file". Try
    googling for "windows NT file delete" sometime. The
    point being the successful searching is highly dependent
    on having specific search terms.

    >> No it doesn't imply any such thing. It is exactly this
    >> narrowness of focus, this inability to see alternate
    >> explanations, that is leading you to think that
    >> providing hints is the single one and only right
    >> way of responding to any simple question on this list.
    >>
    >> They may post here because, ...(ready for this?)...
    >> they want a direct answer to their question!

    >
    > The best way to get a direct answer is to show that you've
    > already made some effort. Usually this involves including some
    > code. It's a newsgroup composed of people volunteering their
    > time conversing with others, not a vending-machine thanklessly
    > spewing free answers.


    This discussion is not about the best way to get
    answers (about which I happen to agree with you); it
    is about whether you have the moral right not only
    to *demand* that a poster follow your guidelines but
    to also *demand* that I *not* offer help to a poster
    because *you* think the poster doesn't deserve it.
    Sorry but I prefer to rely on my own judgment in such
    cases.

    >[...]
    >
    > My hope then is that these people whom you coddle with spoon-fed
    > answers end up working with/for you instead of me.


    This illustrates part of the problem. You apparently
    see every poster as a professional Python programmer
    who is or will be working in a software shop doing
    professional development. I concede that is true for
    many posters but there are a lot of people who don't
    fit that profile -- syadmin's who need to automate
    some of their tasks, students and computer aficionados
    who want to write a program to manage their mp3 collection,
    scientists and engineers who are more interested in
    getting an answer than writing unit tests, retirees
    who want a new challenge to stave off Alzheimers,
    home linux computer users who want to fix or modify
    a system tool, and on and on...

    Not all of these people want to be "taught" in bits
    and pieces over several posts, the correct way of
    professionally programming in Python, especially not
    by a method that you, who are not even trained in
    educational methods and are working without any sort
    of plan or curriculum, decide is the best, only, way
    to learn.

    And even for the to-be professional programmers, you
    still have not shown that seeing a worked out example
    of a problem is necessarily damaging. As I related
    earlier, from my personal experience I know this is
    not true -- in my case the opposite was true; a simple
    direct answer more beneficial than the long experiential
    answer.
     
    , Oct 22, 2009
    #20
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