RE: Comments on Python Redesign

Discussion in 'Python' started by Tim Parkin, Sep 7, 2003.

  1. Tim Parkin

    Tim Parkin Guest

    David/Lulu said:
    >Yeah... this moves it from truly awful to merely bad. So that's a good
    >step. Even so, the lines of text are squashed together vertically in

    an
    >awkward way that makes reading difficult. I don't even really know how
    >that effect was achieved (or in what browser)... is there a CSS
    >attribute for "really small vertical spacing"?


    1) it's an image
    2) as an image created in fireworks, I expected line spacing to honor
    html spacing. It doesn't however so I've fixed it.

    >In my experience, good pages remain good even in the complete absence
    >of
    >their CSS stylesheet. Well, and CERTAINLY good pages do not embed
    >ad-hoc <font> tags all over them, but I don't think the redesign demo
    >did that. While I'm only guessing, this is a page that would fare
    >poorly with the CSS dropped, and with user-specified fonts and colors
    >specfied.


    1) it's an image
    2) images don't have font tags
    3) haven't got a clue what you mean about it fairing badly with css
    dropped and fonts and colours changed. If by this you mean rendered in
    text mode then the design would be a lot better than the existing site
    as IT'S AN IMAGE you don't really have any way of knowing.

    >The problem is that it is WAY over-designed. It looks like something
    >you'd design for a magazine, not for the web, with many browsers
    >possible. Parkins, or whoever, has a certain browser and screen size,
    >and probably took out a ruler to align everything properly on that
    >unique combination.


    1) My name is parkin.
    2) The site is designed to reflect the expectations of commercial
    customers who are used to the likes of peoplesoft and atg, etc. also
    it's designed to project an image to set Python alongside existing
    enterprise programming langagues (apologies for using the e word)
    3) it's an image. Images don't stretch. If I make it any bigger
    it would not fit in 800 wide browsers. A lot of designers make a choice
    between fixed width and fluid. I would probably choose fluid for all
    but the home page however I'm looking at fluid techniques for that too.

    Tim
    Tim Parkin, Sep 7, 2003
    #1
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  2. Tim Parkin

    Dave Brueck Guest

    Re: Eureka! (Re: Comments on Python Redesign)

    On Monday 08 September 2003 10:43 am, Aahz wrote:
    > In article <>,
    >
    > Graham Fawcett <> wrote:
    > >Rather than throw stones, I have created a *brand new design* design for
    > >Python.org. I am certain that will satisfy both the technical users and
    > >the suit-wearing investigators. It borrows the time-honoured stylings of
    > >the old Python site, and blends them with some upscale business moxy.
    > >
    > >Take a look:
    > >
    > >http://tinyurl.com/mlcv

    >
    > Many people, me included, won't follow tinyurl links; please provide a
    > standard URL, too.


    Why? Are you worried that he'll redirect you to kiddie porn or something?
    Dave Brueck, Sep 8, 2003
    #2
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  3. Tim Parkin

    Dave Brueck Guest

    Re: Eureka! (Re: Comments on Python Redesign)

    On Monday 08 September 2003 12:57 pm, Graham Fawcett wrote:
    > Aahz wrote:
    > >Many people, me included, won't follow tinyurl links; please provide a
    > >standard URL, too.

    [snip]
    > Thanks for the heads-up re: tinyurl. I realize that some unfriendly folk
    > may enjoy sending people to goatse or some similarly unsavoury site; I
    > guess I haven't been burned and have enjoyed the brevity of those URLs.


    I don't know of any problem with tinyurls - *any* server can provide a "bad"
    redirect; as with any URL whether or not you follow it depends on the context
    and on how much you trust the sender. Maybe Aahz has another reason in mind,
    but I don't know of any reason to stop using them.

    -Dave
    Dave Brueck, Sep 8, 2003
    #3
  4. Tim Parkin

    Y2KYZFR1 Guest

    "Tim Parkin" <> wrote in message news:<>...



    > 2) The site is designed to reflect the expectations of commercial
    > customers who are used to the likes of peoplesoft and atg, etc.


    all of those sites are completely useless brochure ware fluff.

    A programming language web site does not NEED any graphics whatsoever!
    It needs clean plain readable text that is logically and rationally
    laid out with obvious textual links, also it needs to be MULTI-LINGUAL
    .. . . which pictures and icons are NOT multi-lingual by nature.

    > also
    > it's designed to project an image to set Python alongside existing
    > enterprise programming langagues (apologies for using the e word)


    try picking a web site that is useable over the graphical corporate
    fluff for the home page.

    then put a big obvious link that says, NON-TECHNICAL PEOPLE THAT WANT
    PYTHIN INFORMATION CLICK THIS! or some such thing.

    Making the default home page corporate contentless brochure-ware fluff
    is defiantly the quickest way to drive away the technical people,
    without whom Python would not be as popular.

    A completely separate brochure-ware Python for non-technical managers
    site would be usefull, but making the entire site and the main page
    have that function would be counter productive.

    here are good useable technical sites
    http://www.cetus-links.org/
    http://sourceforge.net/
    http://firebird.sourceforge.net/
    http://www.mozilla.org/

    there are many others, but they all have ONE thing in common, CLEAN
    UNCLUTTERED CONSISTENT layout of information, and very very very very
    few graphics and very very very little fluff.

    Anything that does NOT directly convey useful infomration is FLUFF.


    > 3) it's an image. Images don't stretch. If I make it any bigger
    > it would not fit in 800 wide browsers. A lot of designers make a choice
    > between fixed width and fluid. I would probably choose fluid for all
    > but the home page however I'm looking at fluid techniques for that too.


    then post the HTML that generated the image, learn from your lesson,
    don't post screen shots in the future.

    > Tim
    Y2KYZFR1, Sep 8, 2003
    #4
  5. Eureka! (Re: Comments on Python Redesign)

    Y2KYZFR1 wrote:

    >"Tim Parkin" <> wrote in message news:<>...
    >
    >

    [snip]

    >
    >
    >>also
    >>it's designed to project an image to set Python alongside existing
    >>enterprise programming langagues (apologies for using the e word)
    >>
    >>

    >
    >try picking a web site that is useable over the graphical corporate
    >fluff for the home page.
    >
    >then put a big obvious link that says, NON-TECHNICAL PEOPLE THAT WANT
    >PYTHIN INFORMATION CLICK THIS! or some such thing.
    >
    >


    Here. I think I've solved the problem once and for all.

    Rather than throw stones, I have created a *brand new design* design for
    Python.org. I am certain that will satisfy both the technical users and
    the suit-wearing investigators. It borrows the time-honoured stylings of
    the old Python site, and blends them with some upscale business moxy.

    Take a look:

    http://tinyurl.com/mlcv

    Sorry, there's no comments page. Please send your opinions to the
    marketing SIG.

    P.S. It's not an image! Feel free to check out my kewl HTML coding
    skills. I used CSS and everything.

    Yours,

    -- Graham
    Graham Fawcett, Sep 8, 2003
    #5
  6. Tim Parkin

    Alan Kennedy Guest

    Tim Parkin:
    >> 2) The site is designed to reflect the expectations of commercial
    >> customers who are used to the likes of peoplesoft and atg, etc.


    Y2KYZFR1 wrote:
    > all of those sites are completely useless brochure ware fluff.
    >
    > A programming language web site does not NEED any graphics whatsoever!
    > It needs clean plain readable text that is logically and rationally
    > laid out with obvious textual links, also it needs to be MULTI-LINGUAL
    > . . . which pictures and icons are NOT multi-lingual by nature.


    Does this mean we can't have any Monty Python imagery on the page?

    If there's going to be images on the home page, we should have one of
    a Norwegian Blue, "Pining for the Fjords".

    Or better still, CharWoman (aka Queen Elizabeth), swinging on a vine
    in front of Buckingham Palace?

    Or a tableau of "The Knights who go Nih"?

    The possibilities are endless ;-)

    --
    alan kennedy
    -----------------------------------------------------
    check http headers here: http://xhaus.com/headers
    email alan: http://xhaus.com/mailto/alan
    Alan Kennedy, Sep 8, 2003
    #6
  7. Re: Eureka! (Re: Comments on Python Redesign)

    Graham Fawcett wrote:

    > Here. I think I've solved the problem once and for all.
    >
    > Rather than throw stones, I have created a *brand new design* design
    > for Python.org. I am certain that will satisfy both the technical
    > users and the suit-wearing investigators. It borrows the time-honoured
    > stylings of the old Python site, and blends them with some upscale
    > business moxy.
    >
    > Take a look:
    >
    > http://tinyurl.com/mlcv
    >
    > Sorry, there's no comments page. Please send your opinions to the
    > marketing SIG.
    >
    > P.S. It's not an image! Feel free to check out my kewl HTML coding
    > skills. I used CSS and everything.




    Lest anyone (else) not catch the humorous intent of my message -- please
    DO NOT send your opinions to the marketing SIG. This was intended as a
    satirical reply to a c.l.python message -- I don't want to add noise to
    the python-marketing list.

    -- Graham
    Graham Fawcett, Sep 8, 2003
    #7
  8. Re: Eureka! (Re: Comments on Python Redesign)


    >> http://tinyurl.com/mlcv


    aahz> Many people, me included, won't follow tinyurl links;

    Why?

    Skip
    Skip Montanaro, Sep 8, 2003
    #8
  9. Re: Eureka! (Re: Comments on Python Redesign)

    Aahz wrote:

    >In article <>,
    >Graham Fawcett <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Rather than throw stones, I have created a *brand new design* design for
    >>Python.org. I am certain that will satisfy both the technical users and
    >>the suit-wearing investigators. It borrows the time-honoured stylings of
    >>the old Python site, and blends them with some upscale business moxy.
    >>
    >>Take a look:
    >>
    >>http://tinyurl.com/mlcv
    >>
    >>

    >
    >Many people, me included, won't follow tinyurl links; please provide a
    >standard URL, too.
    >
    >


    Okay. But please understand that my design is a *joke*... should have
    added a <wink> in there somewhere.

    Do *not* send comments to anyone, esp. the marketing list! I've made my
    apologies there already.

    http://fawcett.medialab.uwindsor.ca/python_org_redesign/

    Thanks for the heads-up re: tinyurl. I realize that some unfriendly folk
    may enjoy sending people to goatse or some similarly unsavoury site; I
    guess I haven't been burned and have enjoyed the brevity of those URLs.

    it-all-seemed-funnier-at-two-in-the-morning'ly yours,

    -- Graham
    Graham Fawcett, Sep 8, 2003
    #9
  10. Tim Parkin

    Aahz Guest

    Re: Eureka! (Re: Comments on Python Redesign)

    In article <>,
    Skip Montanaro <> wrote:
    >
    > >> http://tinyurl.com/mlcv

    >
    > aahz> Many people, me included, won't follow tinyurl links;
    >
    >Why?


    Because I don't like going to random sites.
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects
    with useful practice. --Aahz
    Aahz, Sep 8, 2003
    #10
  11. Re: Eureka! (Re: Comments on Python Redesign)

    Dave> I don't know of any problem with tinyurls - *any* server can
    Dave> provide a "bad" redirect; as with any URL whether or not you
    Dave> follow it depends on the context and on how much you trust the
    Dave> sender.

    The only other reasons I could think of to object to tiny urls are:

    * Perhaps the tinyurl folks are not trustworthy (are they keeping track of
    your browsing habits and selling that info?). That seems unlikely, since
    they don't appear to be storing cookies in my browser.

    * The tinyurl website can become a bottleneck, preventing people from
    getting where they want to go. The tinyurl.com website seems to be fairly
    unreachable for me at the moment, though this is the first time I've seen
    this, and it appears to be a problem more with Northwestern's connection
    to the net than tinyurl.com's.

    * There's no guarantee tiny urls will remain unique or even available for
    long periods of time. Their current practice of using four lower-case
    letters suggests they have space for about 450,000 unique URLs before
    extending to a fifth letter.

    Skip
    Skip Montanaro, Sep 8, 2003
    #11
  12. Tim Parkin

    Peter Hansen Guest

    Re: Eureka! (Re: Comments on Python Redesign)

    Skip Montanaro wrote:
    >
    > Dave> I don't know of any problem with tinyurls - *any* server can
    > Dave> provide a "bad" redirect; as with any URL whether or not you
    > Dave> follow it depends on the context and on how much you trust the
    > Dave> sender.
    >
    > The only other reasons I could think of to object to tiny urls are:
    >
    > * Perhaps the tinyurl folks are not trustworthy (are they keeping track of
    > your browsing habits and selling that info?). That seems unlikely, since
    > they don't appear to be storing cookies in my browser.
    >
    > * The tinyurl website can become a bottleneck, preventing people from
    > getting where they want to go. The tinyurl.com website seems to be fairly
    > unreachable for me at the moment, though this is the first time I've seen
    > this, and it appears to be a problem more with Northwestern's connection
    > to the net than tinyurl.com's.
    >
    > * There's no guarantee tiny urls will remain unique or even available for
    > long periods of time. Their current practice of using four lower-case
    > letters suggests they have space for about 450,000 unique URLs before
    > extending to a fifth letter.


    * You can't tell ahead of time what site you are going to be redirected to.
    As a result, you lose complete freedom to choose whether or not you should
    follow the link. (Note for the imprecise: I didn't say you completely lose
    freedom, I said you lose complete freedom.)

    -Peter
    Peter Hansen, Sep 8, 2003
    #12
  13. Tim Parkin

    David Mertz Guest

    Re: Eureka!

    Peter Hansen <> wrote previously:
    |* You can't tell ahead of time what site you are going to be redirected to.
    | As a result, you lose complete freedom to choose whether or not you should
    | follow the link.

    As Dave Brueck noted, the same is true of ANY URL. I use a few
    redirects on my own website, so just because you think you are going to
    a gnosis.cx address doesn't mean you'll wind up there. In an innocuous
    case, the URL <http://gnosis.cx/TpiP/> redirects you to my actual book
    page (which differs in capitalization)--this just addresses a typo AW
    made on my jacket. Even so, the page you wind up seeing has a different
    URL that what you copy to your browser. A slightly greater change is
    with <http://gnosis.cx/voting-project/>, which directs you to an
    entirely different host (for now, I might more it to the same host
    later). While there's no malice here, readers had no idea they would
    wind up on gnosis.python-hosting.com.

    If I wanted to be REALLY malicious, I could post a link like:

    http://gnosis.cx/python/

    :).

    Yours, David...

    --
    mertz@ _/_/_/_/ THIS MESSAGE WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY: \_\_\_\_ n o
    gnosis _/_/ Postmodern Enterprises \_\_
    ..cx _/_/ \_\_ d o
    _/_/_/ IN A WORLD W/O WALLS, THERE WOULD BE NO GATES \_\_\_ z e
    David Mertz, Sep 8, 2003
    #13
  14. Tim Parkin

    David Mertz Guest

    Re: Eureka!

    Peter Hansen <> wrote previously:
    |* You can't tell ahead of time what site you are going to be redirected to.
    | As a result, you lose complete freedom to choose whether or not you should
    | follow the link.

    As Dave Brueck noted, the same is true of ANY URL. I use a few
    redirects on my own website, so just because you think you are going to
    a gnosis.cx address doesn't mean you'll wind up there. In an innocuous
    case, the URL <http://gnosis.cx/TpiP/> redirects you to my actual book
    page (which differs in capitalization)--this just addresses a typo AW
    made on my jacket. Even so, the page you wind up seeing has a different
    URL that what you copy to your browser. A slightly greater change is
    with <http://gnosis.cx/voting-project/>, which directs you to an
    entirely different host (for now, I might more it to the same host
    later). While there's no malice here, readers had no idea they would
    wind up on gnosis.python-hosting.com.

    If I wanted to be REALLY malicious, I could post a link like:

    http://gnosis.cx/python/

    :).

    Yours, David...

    --
    mertz@ _/_/_/_/ THIS MESSAGE WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY: \_\_\_\_ n o
    gnosis _/_/ Postmodern Enterprises \_\_
    ..cx _/_/ \_\_ d o
    _/_/_/ IN A WORLD W/O WALLS, THERE WOULD BE NO GATES \_\_\_ z e
    David Mertz, Sep 8, 2003
    #14
  15. Re: Eureka!

    David> Peter Hansen <> wrote previously:
    David> |* You can't tell ahead of time what site you are going to be redirected to.
    David> | As a result, you lose complete freedom to choose whether or not you should
    David> | follow the link.

    David> As Dave Brueck noted, the same is true of ANY URL. I use a few
    David> redirects on my own website, ...

    Ditto here, including a couple for pages that started out in my Python Bits
    tree but migrated elsewhere, like to the Python Wiki.

    Clearly the opportunity for abuse using tiny urls is somewhat higher because
    they are much easier to create, but I've never had a problem. You judge the
    context and the presumed source of the URL and take your chances.

    Skip
    Skip Montanaro, Sep 8, 2003
    #15
  16. Tim Parkin

    John J. Lee Guest

    Re: Eureka! (Re: Comments on Python Redesign)

    Skip Montanaro <> writes:
    [...]
    > * The tinyurl website can become a bottleneck, preventing people from
    > getting where they want to go. The tinyurl.com website seems to be fairly
    > unreachable for me at the moment, though this is the first time I've seen
    > this, and it appears to be a problem more with Northwestern's connection
    > to the net than tinyurl.com's.


    Apparently not: I can't reach it either.


    > * There's no guarantee tiny urls will remain unique or even available for
    > long periods of time. Their current practice of using four lower-case
    > letters suggests they have space for about 450,000 unique URLs before
    > extending to a fifth letter.


    Good practice to give both URLs, I suppose -- easier to cut-n-paste
    the tinyurl, but the original one has a better chance of still working
    later.


    John
    John J. Lee, Sep 8, 2003
    #16
  17. Re: Eureka! (Re: Comments on Python Redesign)

    Peter Hansen wrote:

    > * You can't tell ahead of time what site you are going to be
    > redirected to.
    > As a result, you lose complete freedom to choose whether or not you
    > should
    > follow the link. (Note for the imprecise: I didn't say you
    > completely lose
    > freedom, I said you lose complete freedom.)


    But you can't tell that any URL, even a long one that looks meaningful,
    won't redirect you someplace you don't want to go. Even if it's what
    you expected, there could be something on the page which potentially
    does something malicious, like a Java bomb.

    It all comes down to trusting the person who's posting the URL, and that
    doesn't change whether it's a tinyurl.com URL being posted or something
    else. (Not that I'm a particular fan of using tinyurl.com, but this
    seems like a strange thing to complain about.)

    --
    Erik Max Francis && && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
    __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
    / \ The people are to be taken in very small doses.
    \__/ Ralph Waldo Emerson
    Erik Max Francis, Sep 8, 2003
    #17
  18. Tim Parkin

    Jim Dabell Guest

    Re: Eureka! (Re: Comments on Python Redesign)

    Erik Max Francis wrote:

    > Peter Hansen wrote:
    >
    >> * You can't tell ahead of time what site you are going to be
    >> redirected to.
    >> As a result, you lose complete freedom to choose whether or not you
    >> should
    >> follow the link. (Note for the imprecise: I didn't say you
    >> completely lose
    >> freedom, I said you lose complete freedom.)

    >
    > But you can't tell that any URL, even a long one that looks meaningful,
    > won't redirect you someplace you don't want to go. Even if it's what
    > you expected, there could be something on the page which potentially
    > does something malicious, like a Java bomb.
    >
    > It all comes down to trusting the person who's posting the URL, and that
    > doesn't change whether it's a tinyurl.com URL being posted or something
    > else.


    No. The crucial difference is that, if you can see the real URL, you don't
    have to trust the poster if you trust the website. I trust a URL pointing
    to the python.org domain won't redirect me to a malicious website, no
    matter who posts it. If said URL is obfuscated with tinyurl or similar, I
    only have the option of trusting the poster.


    --
    Jim Dabell
    Jim Dabell, Sep 9, 2003
    #18
  19. Tim Parkin

    Juha Autero Guest

    Re: Eureka!

    (David Mertz) writes:

    > As Dave Brueck noted, the same is true of ANY URL. I use a few
    > redirects on my own website, so just because you think you are going to
    > a gnosis.cx address doesn't mean you'll wind up there.


    Yes but with <http://gnosis.cx/voting-project/> or
    <http://www.ibm.com/open/> you have some idea who is responsible for
    the redirect and can decide if you trust them or not. This is not
    the case with <http://tinyurl.com/me86> or <http://tinyurl.com/mp66>.

    --
    Juha Autero
    http://www.iki.fi/jautero/
    Eschew obscurity!
    Juha Autero, Sep 9, 2003
    #19
  20. Re: Eureka! (Re: Comments on Python Redesign)

    Paul> Just what is the problem with posting long url's anyway? Just
    Paul> turn off wordwrap, and send. Example of a long url (I have
    Paul> wordwrap off):

    ...

    Some intermediate software may still slice the URL. This sort of thing was
    a known problem long before Microsoft knew about the Internet. It just
    wasn't as prevalent as it is today with the propensity of websites to have
    long URLs.

    Skip
    Skip Montanaro, Sep 9, 2003
    #20
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