RE: Comments on Python Redesign

Discussion in 'Python' started by Tim Parkin, Sep 7, 2003.

  1. Tim Parkin

    Tim Parkin Guest

    Aahz:
    > That said, there likely will be a subsection of python.org that is
    > aimed at managers, with a more designed look and more graphics;
    > someone trying to convince a specific manager could point zir into
    > the subsection.


    Fernando:
    > A visible 'corporate' link, along with a single-level url
    > www.python.org/corporate, perhaps even aliased to
    > corporate.python.org) can satisfy the PHBs with minimal effort.


    Please don't consider this, the majority of corporate users will find
    the site themselves or through links in articles magazines, etc. so
    they will still get first impressions from the main home page. If
    anything we could provide a developer portal page which may be used
    as a bookmark. Personally I think this is a bad idea also. What is
    wrong with the information architecture / navigation on the page
    proposal. Please could we move this discussion to one of the
    appropriate lists aswell. I suggest python-marketing to begin with.

    Fernando:
    > That's why you really need to post a readable
    > html site, not a png: it's almost impossible for anyone but you to
    > properly judge the site with graphical screenshots. It takes a long

    time to create a professional html design that is cross browser to
    the extent needed for this site and also as accessibile as possible.
    I am unwilling to spend this amount of time just to get some feedback
    on a design that might possibly be used. To give you an idea of how
    much this HTML design would cost from a consultancy (which is what
    pollenation is), calculate professional rates at approx thirty two
    hours work (my guess, about £1,600 or maybe $2,500). Could someone
    please explain why it's impossible to judge the design of the site
    without it being rendered as HTML. Perhaps the accessibility / speed
    needs HTML, but not the design. Do people feel that the design would
    be impossible to create as a optimal HTML entity?

    Fernando:
    > And since the starting thread of the discussion was a post by Tim
    > himself, that seemed a perfectly fair thing to do. It may have been
    > dragged here from elsewhere, but the first 'Comments ...' post was
    > by Tim, and he's been responding in the discussion actively.
    > As long as the comments were civil

    Actually the first post wasn't by me and I only saw it as it was
    mentioned in my blog, at which point I subscribed to comp.lang.python.

    Fernando:
    > A basic rule of design should always be: a default (www.python.org)
    > value should satisfy the _majority_ of usage cases (not those with
    > the most money/corporate power/whatever). Since the majority of
    > visitors to the site can arguably be thought to be developers,
    > _that_ is the audience the default url should target. No, a basic
    > rule of design is to create something that satisfies the brief. In

    this case the brief is to provide a site whose default view provides
    a developer friendly page but with a heavy marketing bias. As long as
    the page still satisfies the information needs of the developer then
    it satsifies the brief.

    David Eppstein:
    >"rightly jumping all over the design"

    Why are they rightly jumping all over it? Is this the purpose of
    discussion? I would say people should be "right providing
    constructive feedback".
    Tim Parkin, Sep 7, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Tim Parkin wrote:

    > Fernando:
    >> That's why you really need to post a readable
    >> html site, not a png: it's almost impossible for anyone but you to
    >> properly judge the site with graphical screenshots. It takes a long


    > time to create a professional html design that is cross browser to
    > the extent needed for this site and also as accessibile as possible.
    > I am unwilling to spend this amount of time just to get some feedback
    > on a design that might possibly be used. To give you an idea of how
    > much this HTML design would cost from a consultancy (which is what
    > pollenation is), calculate professional rates at approx thirty two
    > hours work (my guess, about £1,600 or maybe $2,500). Could someone
    > please explain why it's impossible to judge the design of the site
    > without it being rendered as HTML. Perhaps the accessibility / speed
    > needs HTML, but not the design. Do people feel that the design would
    > be impossible to create as a optimal HTML entity?


    Well, with an image, nobody can tell if the layout remains sensible when users
    set drastically different font defaults. I, for one, use a laptop with a 14
    in, 1600x1200 LCD. I have fairly large font defaults set in mozilla, and my
    fonts look gorgeous (many individual pixels per letter, they read almost like
    printed paper). Properly coded sites are no problem, the layout flows around
    the text and it all looks just fine. But I've also seen sites where the text
    splatters all over the graphical elements, because those elements assumed a
    fixed pixel size that text would never exceed. Sites like that are a disaster
    to read.

    By looking only at a static png, I (or others in a similar situation), have no
    way of knowing whether your proposed design would work ok or not with our font
    choices.

    I had assumed you had taken a screenshot from an existing test site in your
    browser. From your other posts, I'm starting to guess that you actually 'drew'
    the design in a graphics program. So I don't know if it's even possible for
    you to provide in short order a functional mockup.

    But you said you wanted this discussion in a marketing list I just don't have
    the time to subscribe to, so I won't continue to post here further. Good luck,

    Fernando.
    Fernando Perez, Sep 8, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. "Tim Parkin" <> wrote previously:
    |Please could we move this discussion to one of the appropriate lists as
    |well. I suggest python-marketing to begin with.

    A marketing list is just not an appropriate forum for discussing
    redesigning the main python website. The page www.python.org just
    simply should not be driven primarily, or even significantly, by
    "marketing" issues... it's us developers who use it, in the overwhelming
    majority.

    We developers should not be treated as second class Python users because
    someone got the idea that the page should look like what PHBs expect.

    On the other hand... it seems like an entirely different site could look
    like that glossy pamphlet. Maybe something like:

    http://python-business.com/

    Or even:

    http://enterprise.python.com/

    Just as long as the main page doesn't get majorly uglified.

    Yours, Lulu...

    --
    Keeping medicines from the bloodstreams of the sick; food from the bellies
    of the hungry; books from the hands of the uneducated; technology from the
    underdeveloped; and putting advocates of freedom in prisons. Intellectual
    property is to the 21st century what the slave trade was to the 16th.
    Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters, Sep 8, 2003
    #3
  4. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters wrote:

    >"Tim Parkin" <> wrote previously:
    >|Please could we move this discussion to one of the appropriate lists as
    >|well. I suggest python-marketing to begin with.
    >
    >A marketing list is just not an appropriate forum for discussing
    >redesigning the main python website. The page www.python.org just
    >simply should not be driven primarily, or even significantly, by
    >"marketing" issues... it's us developers who use it, in the overwhelming
    >majority.
    >We developers should not be treated as second class Python users because
    >someone got the idea that the page should look like what PHBs expect.
    >
    >


    Developers will always be first-class Python users; it's a programming
    language, after all. Whether they should be first-class users of
    www.python.org, in my humble opinion, is questionable.

    http://dev.python.org/ would fly from my fingers just as quickly as
    http://www.python.org/ . As a past and present Python developer I would
    feel that I had received first-class treatment through such an accord.

    I believe that, indeed, the front page ought to be comforting to the
    bosses, pointy-headed and otherwise. They are the least likely to go
    hunting for variants on *.python*.org -- it's www or nothing if you
    haven't got a technical clue. (Of course, http://www.python.com/ is
    going to be their first stop, God help us all!)

    And let's face it, eye-candy and smiling faces suggest that there's
    money and savvy behind a thing. They suggest that the owners of the site
    know business, that they bathe regularly and might even own a tie. They
    offer smells of competency, viability and longeivity, and these are good
    smells to offer to decision-makers. They are psychologically inviting
    and reassuring to a larger audience, an audience that doesn't read
    Internet RFCs at bedtime and DTDs in lieu of the morning paper.

    A bounty of eye-candy and a lack of content will kill any site, of
    course, but surely the marketing SIG could ensure that never happens.

    Will new Python developers be dissuaded some eye-candy on the "main"
    Python portal? Perhaps they will be /distracted/ for a brief moment
    while they are looking for the "Developers" link. Once they know about
    dev.python.org, they may never return to the main portal again. No
    worries there. But they may well be delighted to know that all the
    eye-candy exists, when they try to justify the use of this "unheard-of"
    language to their management team. (If they want to persuade their
    development/engineering team, they can always direct them to
    dev.python.org.)

    www.python.org for the suits and dev.python.org for the developers:
    everybody wins. Let Occam's razor cut in favour of those who can follow
    but the simplest technical path.

    >On the other hand... it seems like an entirely different site could look
    >like that glossy pamphlet. Maybe something like:
    >
    > http://python-business.com/
    >
    >Or even:
    >
    > http://enterprise.python.com/
    >
    >


    Again, nice idea, but the bosses will never find it unless you type in
    the URL for them yourself.

    Marketing-sig: For my part, I hereby grant you full privilege to do
    whatever you want with the Python home page. Give me a dev site, and a
    Python installation, and I can move the world; let the others surf where
    they may.

    Yours,

    -- Graham

    P.S. Not in reply to you, Lulu, but I *do* think they should offer a
    boxed Python set: bundle a Python 2.3 development environment on a
    CD-ROM for $299; put the standard library on another, for an extra $299.
    Put in a nice pamphlet and a registration card, maybe a mouse pad with
    the new "fingerprint logo" on it. Put some copper in the PSF's coffers,
    and help the suits feel what we already know: that Python is so good,
    it's worth paying for. My boss would buy two of 'em, after seeing what
    Python has done for us!
    Graham Fawcett, Sep 8, 2003
    #4
  5. Tim Parkin

    Tayss Guest

    "Tim Parkin" <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > Please don't consider this, the majority of corporate users will find
    > the site themselves or through links in articles magazines, etc. so
    > they will still get first impressions from the main home page. If
    > anything we could provide a developer portal page which may be used
    > as a bookmark. [...] What is
    > wrong with the information architecture / navigation on the page
    > proposal.


    The new version is well-executed. Different elements contrast; most
    people like seeing faces (especially when they're flush with
    success)...

    But as a DEVELOPER, it doesn't work for me. I hate seeing
    happy-looking guys when I get out of bed with someone to bang out some
    code that struck me. Announcements are trapped in their safe boxes,
    which dominate their content.

    What I want as a developer is in conflict with what I'd want as a
    businessperson. A suit wants good /relevant/ info, that tells her
    Python isn't snake oil, that it's a good investment that also conforms
    to standards. Maybe a directory of consultants and supporting
    software to purchase. Every so often something new, like someone
    sharing Powerpoint slides that made his audience feel educated.

    If the sites aren't separated, the danger is noise. The best sites
    focus. Like apple.com and Google. Apple is pleasant to visit because
    there are a few sharp things to announce. If you can please two
    audiences with one page, you're very skilled.


    - Tayssir John Gabbour
    Tayss, Sep 8, 2003
    #5
  6. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters wrote:

    > "Tim Parkin" <> wrote previously:
    > |Please could we move this discussion to one of the appropriate lists as
    > |well. I suggest python-marketing to begin with.
    >
    > A marketing list is just not an appropriate forum for discussing
    > redesigning the main python website. The page www.python.org just
    > simply should not be driven primarily, or even significantly, by
    > "marketing" issues... it's us developers who use it, in the overwhelming
    > majority.


    So, you're asserting that the target audience of the site IS and SHOULD BE
    "developers". Surprise, surprise: this assertion IS "a marketing issue".
    Marketing BEGINS with the identification of target audiences and the
    products and services that will best meet the target audiences' need.

    Many techies think of "marketing" as a dirty word because it's so often
    misused as an inappropriate synonym for "selling". Using words properly,
    marketing is a perfectly legitimate and important activity: identify
    who you're addressing, address their needs through appropriate products
    and services, communicate to them that your products and services do
    address their needs, listen to their feedback and adjust your products
    and services to meet their needs even better, look for other audiences
    that might get their needs met by your products and services possibily
    with some modifications.


    Alex
    Alex Martelli, Sep 8, 2003
    #6
  7. Tim Parkin

    John J. Lee Guest

    Graham Fawcett <> writes:
    [...]
    > http://dev.python.org/ would fly from my fingers just as quickly as
    > http://www.python.org/ . As a past and present Python developer I
    > would feel that I had received first-class treatment through such an
    > accord.

    [...]

    +1, FWIW


    John
    John J. Lee, Sep 8, 2003
    #7
  8. Tim Parkin

    Nick Vargish Guest

    I really like the idea of the PSF selling boxed python distros for
    around $300. People who make the business decisions _like_ spending
    money on a product -- it's somehow comforting to them. Include bound
    copies of the Tutorial and Library Reference, to give the box some
    weight and make it clear that they are paying for something more than
    a CD of "free software". (Spiral bound documents, please!)

    I'm hoping that my boss will be shelling out for some Komodo Pro
    licenses, partly for the above reason. The other part of the reason is
    that once money is spent on something, it becomes more entrenched in
    an organization. This will serve to counter the PHB attitude that "if
    it costs nothing to bring in, it will cost nothing to throw out."

    I'd like to support ActiveState financially, since their ActivePython
    distro is a nice way to get people started with Python, without having
    to tell them to install a collection of modules after they install the
    interpreter. Similarly, I would like a business reason to send money
    to the PSF, as asking my boss to make a PayPal donation just ain't
    gonna happen.

    Nick

    --
    # sigmask || 0.2 || 20030107 || public domain || feed this to a python
    print reduce(lambda x,y:x+chr(ord(y)-1),' Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?')
    Nick Vargish, Sep 8, 2003
    #8
  9. Tim Parkin

    Nick Vargish Guest

    (David Mertz) writes:

    > Just email <> for details on payment/shipping.
    > The first order may take an extra week for setup time (it might take a
    > couple days for me to talk to my local copy-shop about printing the box
    > and so on). [only *wink*ing inasmuch as I question the market, for even
    > one $299 sale, I really would create something quite nice looking]


    How much of this $299 would go to the PSF? And how much would go to
    the David-needs-a-yacht fund? I could probably get my boss to order 4
    or 5 such boxed distributions...

    No-*winking*-at-all,

    Nick

    --
    # sigmask || 0.2 || 20030107 || public domain || feed this to a python
    print reduce(lambda x,y:x+chr(ord(y)-1),' Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?')
    Nick Vargish, Sep 8, 2003
    #9
  10. Tim Parkin

    Dave Kuhlman Guest

    Alex Martelli wrote:

    > Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters wrote:
    >
    >> "Tim Parkin" <> wrote
    >> previously:
    >> |Please could we move this discussion to one of the appropriate
    >> |lists as
    >> |well. I suggest python-marketing to begin with.
    >>
    >> A marketing list is just not an appropriate forum for discussing
    >> redesigning the main python website. The page www.python.org
    >> just simply should not be driven primarily, or even
    >> significantly, by "marketing" issues... it's us developers who
    >> use it, in the overwhelming majority.

    >
    > So, you're asserting that the target audience of the site IS and
    > SHOULD BE
    > "developers". Surprise, surprise: this assertion IS "a marketing
    > issue". Marketing BEGINS with the identification of target
    > audiences and the products and services that will best meet the
    > target audiences' need.
    >


    We're not, I believe, arguing about the target audience for
    Python. We're arguing about the target audience for
    http://www.python.org.

    Further more, saying that the choice of a target audience or that
    the choice of the service and product to be provided is a
    marketing issue begs the question. It just assumes that marketing
    should take over decisions about the direction of a company or a
    site.

    > Many techies think of "marketing" as a dirty word because it's so
    > often
    > misused as an inappropriate synonym for "selling". Using words
    > properly, marketing is a perfectly legitimate and important
    > activity: identify who you're addressing, address their needs
    > through appropriate products and services, communicate to them
    > that your products and services do address their needs, listen to
    > their feedback and adjust your products and services to meet their
    > needs even better, look for other audiences that might get their
    > needs met by your products and services possibily with some
    > modifications.


    These are all good suggestions for a Python promotion site or for a
    site for a company that sells Python services.

    No one is arguing that marketing and sales are illegitimate.
    David Mertz has already offered to sell "Python in a box with
    extras" for $299, possibly even for less if you say, "Guido sent
    me". But, please don't do it at http://www.python.org.

    I am on the side of those who say that the marketing and
    promotion should not be done at the Python home page,
    http://www.python.org. It does not seem to be the main focus at
    http://www.perl.org/ nor at http://java.sun.com/. What promotion
    is done at those sites (and the current Python home site) is done
    through helping developers and not through paid endorsements etc.
    The Java site, by the way, looks like they copied www.python.org,
    then polished it and edited it for Java.

    Dave

    --
    Dave Kuhlman
    http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman
    Dave Kuhlman, Sep 8, 2003
    #10
  11. What is marketing?

    Alex Martelli <> wrote previously:
    |Many techies think of "marketing" as a dirty word because it's so often
    |misused as an inappropriate synonym for "selling".

    marketing
    1. The act or process of buying and selling in a market.
    2. The commercial functions involved in transferring goods from
    producer to consumer.
    --------------------
    The American Heritage (r) Concise Dictionary of the English Language,
    Third Edition. Copyright (c) 1992 Houghton Mifflin Company.

    In other words, 'marketing' is a synonym for 'selling' (commercially).

    The neutral word that Alex is looking for is 'promotion', which has a
    subtle but important difference from the dirty word.

    Yours, Lulu...

    --
    mertz@ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/ THIS MESSAGE WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY:_/_/_/_/ v i
    gnosis _/_/ Postmodern Enterprises _/_/ s r
    ..cx _/_/ MAKERS OF CHAOS.... _/_/ i u
    _/_/_/_/_/ LOOK FOR IT IN A NEIGHBORHOOD NEAR YOU_/_/_/_/_/ g s
    Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters, Sep 8, 2003
    #11
  12. Tim Parkin

    David Mertz Guest

    Python boxed set

    Nick Vargish <> wrote previously:
    |> Just email <> for details on payment/shipping.
    |> The first order may take an extra week for setup time (it might take a
    |> couple days for me to talk to my local copy-shop about printing the box
    |> and so on). [only *wink*ing inasmuch as I question the market, for even
    |> one $299 sale, I really would create something quite nice looking]

    |How much of this $299 would go to the PSF? And how much would go to
    |the David-needs-a-yacht fund? I could probably get my boss to order 4
    |or 5 such boxed distributions...

    Well... maybe it would be the David-needs-a-canoe fund; I'd have to sell
    quite a few before I'd be thinking about the yacht (to sail my local
    Connecticut River, I guess).

    How serious does anyone else think the market for a Python boxed set
    would be? If some people such a thing would actually sell some copies,
    I wouldn't mind putting some work into making nice covers for the box,
    formatting the documentation nicely, and the like. And presumably
    giving most of the money to the PSF, especially if someone wanted to
    give me a hand with the project. FWIW, I -do- own a little consulting
    corporation, which may mean something for business/tax purposes.

    Yours, David...

    --
    _/_/_/ THIS MESSAGE WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY: Postmodern Enterprises _/_/_/
    _/_/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _/_/
    _/_/ The opinions expressed here must be those of my employer... _/_/
    _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Surely you don't think that *I* believe them! _/_/
    David Mertz, Sep 8, 2003
    #12
  13. Re: What is marketing?

    Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters wrote:

    > Alex Martelli <> wrote previously:
    > |Many techies think of "marketing" as a dirty word because it's so often
    > |misused as an inappropriate synonym for "selling".
    >
    > marketing
    > 1. The act or process of buying and selling in a market.
    > 2. The commercial functions involved in transferring goods from
    > producer to consumer.
    > --------------------
    > The American Heritage (r) Concise Dictionary of the English Language,
    > Third Edition. Copyright (c) 1992 Houghton Mifflin Company.
    >
    > In other words, 'marketing' is a synonym for 'selling' (commercially).
    >
    > The neutral word that Alex is looking for is 'promotion', which has a
    > subtle but important difference from the dirty word.


    Nope -- it's "marketing" as defined in textbooks of economics, which
    go WAY more deeply onto all details of that "buying and selling in a
    market" and all it implies, as opposed to its general perception. In
    large firms, Sales ("selling commercially") and Marketing are separate
    divisions -- and Marketing isn't just about "promotion", either. For
    a presentation of a position similar to mine, see e.g. Eric Sink's
    weblog at http://software.ericsink.com/Positioning.html .


    Alex
    Alex Martelli, Sep 8, 2003
    #13
  14. Re: What is marketing?

    |> The neutral word that Alex is looking for is 'promotion', which has a
    |> subtle but important difference from the dirty word.

    Alex Martelli <> wrote previously:
    |Nope -- it's "marketing" as defined in textbooks of economics

    Ahh... that begs the question[*]. I do not believe that Economics is
    the relevant field to consult as to the purpose of the python.org
    website. Economists give only economic answers to questions, and that's
    not the particular song-and-dance that interests me (FWIW, I've
    published in an Economics journal, and taken graduate economics
    courses--albeit suspiciously lefty ones--so my eschewal comes from
    something other than simple ignorance).

    If we decide our textbook should be one about Sociology, or Psychology,
    or Anthropology, or Communications, the false generality for the term
    'marketing' evaporates. IOW, I'm more interested in what Thorstein
    Veblen would say than in what Ludwig von Mises would say :). Or for
    that matter, I'd rather consult Erving Goffman.

    Yours, Lulu...

    [*] Has anyone else noticed how horribly misused this phrase has
    become... including in a televised ad series by Adobe for Acrobat.

    --
    Keeping medicines from the bloodstreams of the sick; food from the bellies
    of the hungry; books from the hands of the uneducated; technology from the
    underdeveloped; and putting advocates of freedom in prisons. Intellectual
    property is to the 21st century what the slave trade was to the 16th.
    Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters, Sep 8, 2003
    #14
  15. Dave Kuhlman wrote:
    ...
    >> So, you're asserting that the target audience of the site IS and
    >> SHOULD BE
    >> "developers". Surprise, surprise: this assertion IS "a marketing
    >> issue". Marketing BEGINS with the identification of target
    >> audiences and the products and services that will best meet the
    >> target audiences' need.

    >
    > We're not, I believe, arguing about the target audience for
    > Python. We're arguing about the target audience for
    > http://www.python.org.


    Yes, and? A site has a target audience just as assuredly as any
    other product or service has. If you don't consciously identify
    that audience, it just "happens", but such "deciding to not
    decide" is "marketing by accident" -- ineffective but still there.

    > Further more, saying that the choice of a target audience or that
    > the choice of the service and product to be provided is a
    > marketing issue begs the question. It just assumes that marketing
    > should take over decisions about the direction of a company or a
    > site.


    Of course not, because there are constraints that it's not marketing's
    job to identify, e.g. finances and technical issues. It's from a
    hopefully synergical interaction of marketing and other functions
    that the direction emerges.


    >> Many techies think of "marketing" as a dirty word because it's so
    >> often
    >> misused as an inappropriate synonym for "selling". Using words
    >> properly, marketing is a perfectly legitimate and important
    >> activity: identify who you're addressing, address their needs
    >> through appropriate products and services, communicate to them
    >> that your products and services do address their needs, listen to
    >> their feedback and adjust your products and services to meet their
    >> needs even better, look for other audiences that might get their
    >> needs met by your products and services possibily with some
    >> modifications.

    >
    > These are all good suggestions for a Python promotion site or for a
    > site for a company that sells Python services.


    These are suggestions totally independent from Python or any
    other specifics. Any entity that aims to further the success
    and spread of [e.g.] Python, as the Python Software Foundation's
    charter says, _had better_ keep these functions in mind.


    > I am on the side of those who say that the marketing and
    > promotion should not be done at the Python home page,
    > http://www.python.org. It does not seem to be the main focus at


    And I am on the side of those who say that "wasting" the
    obvious recognition value of www.BASENAMEHERE.org -- the
    site that will be automatically visited by semismart browsers
    if the user just types BASENAMEHERE on the URL field then
    Enter -- would be totally absurd.

    Techies know enough to follow links presented from said
    page. Non-techies need to be more pampered.

    > http://www.perl.org/ nor at http://java.sun.com/. What promotion


    Look at www.java.com, *NOT* at java.sun.com. The former is what
    "the suits" visit by default.


    Alex
    Alex Martelli, Sep 8, 2003
    #15
  16. Re: What is marketing?

    |> The neutral word that Alex is looking for is 'promotion', which has a
    |> subtle but important difference from the dirty word.

    Alex Martelli <> wrote previously:
    |Nope -- it's "marketing" as defined in textbooks of economics

    Ahh... that begs the question[*]. I do not believe that Economics is
    the relevant field to consult as to the purpose of the python.org
    website. Economists give only economic answers to questions, and that's
    not the particular song-and-dance that interests me (FWIW, I've
    published in an Economics journal, and taken graduate economics
    courses--albeit suspiciously lefty ones--so my eschewal comes from
    something other than simple ignorance).

    If we decide our textbook should be one about Sociology, or Psychology,
    or Anthropology, or Communications, the false generality for the term
    'marketing' evaporates. IOW, I'm more interested in what Thorstein
    Veblen would say than in what Ludwig von Mises would say :). Or for
    that matter, I'd rather consult Erving Goffman.

    Yours, Lulu...

    [*] Has anyone else noticed how horribly misused this phrase has
    become... including in a televised ad series by Adobe for Acrobat.

    --
    Keeping medicines from the bloodstreams of the sick; food from the bellies
    of the hungry; books from the hands of the uneducated; technology from the
    underdeveloped; and putting advocates of freedom in prisons. Intellectual
    property is to the 21st century what the slave trade was to the 16th.

    -
    _/_/_/ THIS MESSAGE WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY: Postmodern Enterprises _/_/_/
    _/_/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _/_/
    _/_/ The opinions expressed here must be those of my employer... _/_/
    _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Surely you don't think that *I* believe them! _/_/
    Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters, Sep 8, 2003
    #16
  17. Tim Parkin

    Chui Tey Guest

    Dave,

    I know lots of developers who'd like to develop python for a living and not
    as a hobby. (I'm lucky enough that I do). The python.org home page should be
    devoted to the suits who will be prepared to hire folks like us. Python has
    sufficient maturity to break into the big leagues and all people could care
    about is that it looks sufficiently amateurish so that the linux k33d would
    use it.

    Just because it is opensource and free doesn't mean that it has to look like
    any other opensource website.

    Chui

    "Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Tim Parkin" <> wrote previously:
    > |Please could we move this discussion to one of the appropriate lists as
    > |well. I suggest python-marketing to begin with.
    >
    > A marketing list is just not an appropriate forum for discussing
    > redesigning the main python website. The page www.python.org just
    > simply should not be driven primarily, or even significantly, by
    > "marketing" issues... it's us developers who use it, in the overwhelming
    > majority.
    >
    > We developers should not be treated as second class Python users because
    > someone got the idea that the page should look like what PHBs expect.
    >
    > On the other hand... it seems like an entirely different site could look
    > like that glossy pamphlet. Maybe something like:
    >
    > http://python-business.com/
    >
    > Or even:
    >
    > http://enterprise.python.com/
    >
    > Just as long as the main page doesn't get majorly uglified.
    >
    > Yours, Lulu...
    >
    > --
    > Keeping medicines from the bloodstreams of the sick; food from the bellies
    > of the hungry; books from the hands of the uneducated; technology from the
    > underdeveloped; and putting advocates of freedom in prisons. Intellectual
    > property is to the 21st century what the slave trade was to the 16th.
    >
    Chui Tey, Sep 8, 2003
    #17
  18. Re: What is marketing?

    On Mon, Sep 08, 2003 at 03:11:52PM -0400, Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters wrote:
    > |> The neutral word that Alex is looking for is 'promotion', which has a
    > |> subtle but important difference from the dirty word.
    >
    > Alex Martelli <> wrote previously:
    > |Nope -- it's "marketing" as defined in textbooks of economics
    >
    > Ahh... that begs the question[*].
    > [*] Has anyone else noticed how horribly misused this phrase has
    > become...

    Amen! Everyone please read this good explanation and then stop using
    the phrase.
    http://gncurtis.home.texas.net/begquest.html

    Apparently people have noticed becuase googling for
    'begs the question definition' turns up a lot of rants.

    > IOW, I'm more interested in what Thorstein
    > Veblen would say than in what Ludwig von Mises would say :).

    Hmm,

    Veblen was an idiot and Mises was rational.

    Err, thats not it,

    Veblen thought everyone was an idiot and Mises thought everyone
    was rational.

    I always get that mixed up.

    -jackdied
    Jack Diederich, Sep 9, 2003
    #18
  19. "Graham Fawcett" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > Developers will always be first-class Python users; it's a programming
    > language, after all. Whether they should be first-class users of
    > www.python.org, in my humble opinion, is questionable.


    I don't think so. They *are* the primary users of www.python.org
    If you're suggesting that to give a professional feel, we should be like
    Microsoft by moving around content so nobody can find it any more,
    I strongly disagree.

    I exaggerate, of course. However, although, I am not a complete
    purist about it, keeping deep links (like say the PEPs) from breaking
    should be part of the aim of the redesign. I'm sure it is.

    What happens on the front page is up for debate. Developers can
    bookmark a separate developer home page - I've no problem with that.
    Richard Brodie, Sep 9, 2003
    #19
  20. Nick Vargish <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > I really like the idea of the PSF selling boxed python distros for
    > around $300. People who make the business decisions _like_ spending
    > money on a product -- it's somehow comforting to them. Include bound
    > copies of the Tutorial and Library Reference, to give the box some
    > weight and make it clear that they are paying for something more than
    > a CD of "free software". (Spiral bound documents, please!)
    >
    > I'm hoping that my boss will be shelling out for some Komodo Pro
    > licenses, partly for the above reason. The other part of the reason is
    > that once money is spent on something, it becomes more entrenched in
    > an organization. This will serve to counter the PHB attitude that "if
    > it costs nothing to bring in, it will cost nothing to throw out."


    We bought Komodo licences for the same reason. ActiveState has been a
    great friend to us, though we've never been introduced; they certainly
    deserve a few bucks. And yes, I'd get our dept. to purchase PSF
    distros as well for the same reason.

    Lulu, if you're reading this: if you manage to sell any Gnosis boxed
    sets, would you mind sending me a little share, in thanks for coming
    up with the idea? I need a new canoe myself. ;-)

    -- Graham
    Graham Fawcett, Sep 9, 2003
    #20
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