Re: Comparison of Java, C# for development on Windows and future for them

Discussion in 'Java' started by Bruce W. Roeser, Jan 10, 2003.

  1. Hi Belinda,

    You obviously got a lot of opinions on this matter. Now I'll offer one.

    I went through a similar decision making process just recently myself. I've
    been writing C for close to 20 years and in the last 5 an increasing amount
    of Visual Basic.

    I decided to take a little stroll into the Java landscape for about 2
    months - tinkering with Forte (Sun One, now) and the language itself. No
    doubt about it, Java is quite cool. The language is so similar to C/C++
    that it's hard to know the difference from a coding standpoint - except if
    you're used to using pointers. Aside from that, the language is very C/C++
    like. After tinkering with it for a couple months I decided that it was not
    for me.

    My thinking behind this revolved around the fact that I have been developing
    to Microsoft platforms of one kind or another since they were invented.
    First DOS (obviously) then eventually Windows. While no O/S vendor can
    claim to have a perfect system - like it or not, Windows is the pervasive
    technology - period. (You Linux lurkers can flame me if you want - you know
    I'm right).

    While you certainly could take the "all platform" approach by going toward
    Java - it seems to me that you are in a similar position; familiar with the
    Microsoft technology. Continuing to develop for the Windows platform is not
    going to hurt you. Even if some of the other platforms gain acceptance in a
    big way, you are still going to have a HUGE audience developing for Windows.
    The thing I finally figured out was that, at some point in my career, I had
    to make a choice of specialty - or constantly be caught up in distractions.
    You might remember the saying "Jack of all trades, master of NONE". This is
    the general philosophy that drove me to my decision to stay with the MS
    tools - VB6/VC++ and eventually DOT-NET. I haven't had the time, yet, to
    get into .Net - but I think our company is about to start working in that
    direction.

    None of us, as developers, can be all things to all people - we must
    eventually specialize to stay viable. So ... for what it's worth (sorry
    about the book) - I'd suggest that you leverage your existing knowledge of
    the MS platform and go the C# route (or even VB) using the DOT-NET - if this
    is a career decision, that is.

    HTH,

    -Bruce Roeser
    Sr. Software Engineer
    Stromberg, LLC


    "Belinda" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hi All
    >
    > I am a C++ programmer and I am now planning to make a transition to
    > either C# or Java. I am not sure whether to take up C# or Java. Some
    > people say the future is C# and .Net and others say Java. I am
    > confused between the arguments between the Microsoft and the Java
    > camps. Can you all kindly throw in some enlightenment on the
    > differences between C# and Java and what is the value proposition for
    > somebody starting now in Java or C# to start in them. Also please note
    > my primary development environment is Windows platform which language
    > is the fastest to learn, performance wise and the future of the
    > languages. I have heard that Java as performance issues is that
    > correct and C# is only windows centric ?. But right now my only
    > development platform will be Windows. I am supposed to make this
    > decision for my company I am free to choose C# or Java.
    >
    > Which must I choose and why ?
    >
    > Thanks
    > Bel
    >
     
    Bruce W. Roeser, Jan 10, 2003
    #1
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  2. Bruce W. Roeser

    Simon Lenn Guest

    Belinda

    I totally agree with Bruce. There as been so much of noise in this
    thread practically appears nobody as really answered the question
    except total diversion.

    I had a similar situation I was programming for longtime in C moved a
    bit to VB and then moved into Java. Invariably at some point in time
    while building apps for Windows I had to talk to MS Technologies this
    is very I started hitting roadblocks. Java and MS are like two
    different religions which never meet. And the moment I could not reach
    to Windows services from Java I started retreating from Java.

    I would have wholeheartedly told you to go to Java if and only if Java
    was one of the core Microsoft development technologies. The long
    battles Sun is waging with MS will make Java foreign to the richness
    of Windows technologies.

    Cross platform to me today does not have much of a meaning with
    practically over 70% of servers and 98% client computers in the world
    running Windows. The death of UNIX is imminent Linux will kill and
    bury UNIX. I would be least surprised if MS already does not have a
    LINUX strategy the core .Net, SQL, Exchange and Office , VS would
    already been in the Linux mint now. With all pervasive MS presence
    makes sense to stick to MS if that is your primary deployment platform
    if Windows is your primary platform and you are going Java you will
    face more interoperability problems than any advantages.

    Today C# as all the features of Java and C# as already been submitted
    to ECMA standards body whereas Sun as not submitted Java to ECMA.
    Compare language feature by feature C# as everything Java as and more.
    The best thing I like of C# is the ease of programming, platform
    integration, and C# SDK like Java is available for free download and
    the best part of C# I like is it does not have performance issues of
    Java.

    If Java was created by James Gosling is match would be Anders
    Hajelsberg the CHief Architect of the successful Delphi and Anders is
    the Chief Architect of C#. So MS & Anders have learnt from C++, VB,
    ASP, Java, Delphi and it is the refinement of all these programming
    languages that is C#.

    I cannot say anything else. I suggest to people posting further please
    post something sensible than just noise.

    Simon


    "Bruce W. Roeser" <> wrote in message news:<WfrT9.100371$>...
    > Hi Belinda,
    >
    > You obviously got a lot of opinions on this matter. Now I'll offer one.
    >
    > I went through a similar decision making process just recently myself. I've
    > been writing C for close to 20 years and in the last 5 an increasing amount
    > of Visual Basic.
    >
    > I decided to take a little stroll into the Java landscape for about 2
    > months - tinkering with Forte (Sun One, now) and the language itself. No
    > doubt about it, Java is quite cool. The language is so similar to C/C++
    > that it's hard to know the difference from a coding standpoint - except if
    > you're used to using pointers. Aside from that, the language is very C/C++
    > like. After tinkering with it for a couple months I decided that it was not
    > for me.
    >
    > My thinking behind this revolved around the fact that I have been developing
    > to Microsoft platforms of one kind or another since they were invented.
    > First DOS (obviously) then eventually Windows. While no O/S vendor can
    > claim to have a perfect system - like it or not, Windows is the pervasive
    > technology - period. (You Linux lurkers can flame me if you want - you know
    > I'm right).
    >
    > While you certainly could take the "all platform" approach by going toward
    > Java - it seems to me that you are in a similar position; familiar with the
    > Microsoft technology. Continuing to develop for the Windows platform is not
    > going to hurt you. Even if some of the other platforms gain acceptance in a
    > big way, you are still going to have a HUGE audience developing for Windows.
    > The thing I finally figured out was that, at some point in my career, I had
    > to make a choice of specialty - or constantly be caught up in distractions.
    > You might remember the saying "Jack of all trades, master of NONE". This is
    > the general philosophy that drove me to my decision to stay with the MS
    > tools - VB6/VC++ and eventually DOT-NET. I haven't had the time, yet, to
    > get into .Net - but I think our company is about to start working in that
    > direction.
    >
    > None of us, as developers, can be all things to all people - we must
    > eventually specialize to stay viable. So ... for what it's worth (sorry
    > about the book) - I'd suggest that you leverage your existing knowledge of
    > the MS platform and go the C# route (or even VB) using the DOT-NET - if this
    > is a career decision, that is.
    >
    > HTH,
    >
    > -Bruce Roeser
    > Sr. Software Engineer
    > Stromberg, LLC
    >
    >
    > "Belinda" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Hi All
    > >
    > > I am a C++ programmer and I am now planning to make a transition to
    > > either C# or Java. I am not sure whether to take up C# or Java. Some
    > > people say the future is C# and .Net and others say Java. I am
    > > confused between the arguments between the Microsoft and the Java
    > > camps. Can you all kindly throw in some enlightenment on the
    > > differences between C# and Java and what is the value proposition for
    > > somebody starting now in Java or C# to start in them. Also please note
    > > my primary development environment is Windows platform which language
    > > is the fastest to learn, performance wise and the future of the
    > > languages. I have heard that Java as performance issues is that
    > > correct and C# is only windows centric ?. But right now my only
    > > development platform will be Windows. I am supposed to make this
    > > decision for my company I am free to choose C# or Java.
    > >
    > > Which must I choose and why ?
    > >
    > > Thanks
    > > Bel
    > >
     
    Simon Lenn, Jan 10, 2003
    #2
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  3. Bruce W. Roeser

    kim bruning Guest

    Hello Simon Lenn. I use unixen a lot so I thought I might clarify
    some things from my perspective.

    Simon Lenn <> wrote:

    > Cross platform to me today does not have much of a meaning with
    > practically over 70% of servers and 98% client computers in the world
    > running Windows.


    Well there's more than just corporate servers and clients in the world.
    A lot of big business machines run some flavor of unix. IBM likes
    advertising with some of those. A single server from for instance
    IBM again can act as a host to tens of thousands of clients at once.
    This skews the number in the servers area just a bit.

    Often specialised devices are more likely to run a flavor of
    unix. Like perhaps the rebranded SGI boxes I saw serving as number
    crunchers for an MRI scanner.

    > The death of UNIX is imminent Linux will kill and
    > bury UNIX.


    That would be strange. Linux is a unix variant itself[1]. Also, Mac OS X
    seems to be doing quite well on the desktop, and that's a rather
    traditional looking unix really. [2]

    > I would be least surprised if MS already does not have a
    > LINUX strategy the core


    MS has an *anti* linux statagy. Technically they might be said
    to be losing ground, though not at any perceptible rate for the
    outside world.

    >.Net, SQL, Exchange and Office , VS would
    > already been in the Linux mint now.


    ..Net is covered by Ximian. SQL is not an MS invention, and SQL
    support on unix platforms is pervasive. Office compatibility is
    offered by multiple unix and linux vendors and project groups.
    Visual Studio is "Not The Unix Way", though there are several
    other ides available. Finally Exchange is the only thing that
    isn't pervasive on unix. Unix people like to feel they have
    superior tools to that. ;-)

    > With all pervasive MS presence
    > makes sense to stick to MS if that is your primary deployment platform
    > if Windows is your primary platform and you are going Java you will
    > face more interoperability problems than any advantages.


    Sure, but if your clientele is the world over, you appear to be
    advocating the exclusion of 30% of your client base on servers,
    just as a start, even if your numbers are correct.

    Not to flame you or anything, but that doesn't sound like such a great
    idea.

    > Today C# as all the features of Java and C# as already been submitted
    > to ECMA standards body whereas Sun as not submitted Java to ECMA.


    Sun certainly *submitted* java to a standards body, then retracted that
    submission again. There's nothing stopping MS from trying the same.

    > Compare language feature by feature C# as everything Java as and more.
    > The best thing I like of C# is the ease of programming, platform
    > integration, and C# SDK like Java is available for free download and
    > the best part of C# I like is it does not have performance issues of
    > Java.


    If you say so. Isn't C# supposed to be a VM based langauge too?
    In that case implementations of Java and C# ought to roughly be
    equally fast in the long run.

    > I cannot say anything else. I suggest to people posting further please
    > post something sensible than just noise.


    Very wise of you.

    read you soon,
    Kim Bruning

    [1] Some purists might object to this phrasing.
    If so :%s/a unix variant/a unix compatible os/g .
    If you don't understand that, you have no right to object ;-)

    [2] For some definition of "traditional looking", probably
    containing references to NeXT.
     
    kim bruning, Jan 10, 2003
    #3
  4. Bruce W. Roeser

    Grant Wagner Guest

    Re: Comparison of Java, C# for development on Windows and future forthem

    kim bruning wrote:

    > > The death of UNIX is imminent Linux will kill and
    > > bury UNIX.

    >
    > That would be strange. Linux is a unix variant itself[1].


    Actually, it's neither "a unix variant", nor is it "a unix compatible os".

    <url: http://kernelbook.sourceforge.net/pdf/ch-intro.pdf />

    [In fact, Jon (Maddog) Hall tells us these days that it isn't even legal to
    say that Linux is "a Unix-like operating system" because we have never
    subjected Linux to the standards tests or applied for any such designation.
    Maddog suggests we say instead that "Unix is a Linux-like operating system"]

    And simply because you can do ":%s/a unix variant/a unix compatible os/g"
    does not make the underlying "a unix variant" or "unix compatible".

    > Also, Mac OS X
    > seems to be doing quite well on the desktop, and that's a rather
    > traditional looking unix really. [2]


    Presumably the OP meant "The death of UNIX on the server is imminent",
    because there's never really been any unix on the desktop to speak of.
    However, as you have pointed out, this comment is actually 180 degrees
    wrong, because unix on the desktop is actually becoming viable in the form
    of OS X.

    --
    | Grant Wagner <>
     
    Grant Wagner, Jan 10, 2003
    #4
  5. Re: Comparison of Java, C# for development on Windows and futurefor them

    Daniel Billingsley wrote:
    > "Sudsy" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >><snip>

    >
    >
    >>MS might call
    >>it .NET but it's really just XML, SOAP, WSDL and UDDI.

    >
    >
    > You clearly don't understand what you're talking about.


    Now, that's a nice, friendly way to start a critique. :)

    > .Net is just what
    > MS calls its current offering that allows you to leverage those technologies
    > (arguably better than anything else right now, at least from a development
    > standpoint for sure).


    Since you're obviously a MS afficionado, I'm going to need your help in
    figuring out eactly what the MS APIs are that leverages, for example, XML
    better than, again for example, Xerces does...

    > You know probably all too well that the java
    > community has been RACING to catch up in this regard.


    You could say this from a certain view point (maybe the same view point that
    claims that the wheel has replaced stairs, but I digress). From other view
    points, you could also say that MS is desperately trying to catch up to Java
    (with the usual MO of copying and rebranding the competitor's offerings)...

    > MS has certainly made
    > its fair share of mistakes in the past and still does, but a claim that
    > Gates and Ballmer aren't as aware of the future of IT as anyone else is
    > naive wishful thinking.


    Not a claim that they weren't aware. A claim that they were slow to react to,
    slow to embrace, the inevitable.

    >
    >
    >>So why would you
    >>need a proprietary GUI? In B2B applications, the GUI doesn't even
    >>exist!
    >>

    >
    >
    > What planet are you on man?! B2B is not an "application", it is a
    > technology (for lack of a better word) for linking applications, all of
    > which have UI's of some sort.


    Actually, B2B is a definition, a conceptual framework, at most. My servlet
    backend which talks to Xyzzy server somewhere and grabs data to reply to the
    query that you asked. Yes, there is a UI, between my backend and you. And
    I'm sure Xyzzy has a gui for its regular users. but UI has no place in the
    transaction where I grab data from Xyzzy...

    >
    > And if you read the trade rags at all you're aware of the recently
    > increasing number of articles suggesting that the idea of a browser-only
    > client sounded good but in the end just isn't going to cut it for most
    > enterprise applications.


    I'm sorry, I don't read the rags. I build the apps. I think you'd be amazed
    at can be done with IE and Mozilla now-a-days...

    > I'm talking about a TRUE browser-only client - in
    > my opinion once you start saying your UI is browser + this or that (addin,
    > control, etc.) then you really have more of a fat client with just a easy
    > deployment mechanism.
    >
    >
     
    Marco Qualizza, Jan 10, 2003
    #5
  6. Bruce W. Roeser

    Chad Myers Guest

    "kim bruning" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > .Net is covered by Ximian. SQL is not an MS invention, and SQL
    > support on unix platforms is pervasive.


    Actually, SQL 7 and SQL 2000 are MS inventions.

    SQL 6.5 and lesser were Sybase-based, but SQL 7 had a newly
    rewritten engine. They did a fairly good job, but they mostly
    rewrote it again for SQL 2000.

    > Office compatibility is
    > offered by multiple unix and linux vendors and project groups.


    *snicker*

    > Visual Studio is "Not The Unix Way", though there are several
    > other ides available.


    But not of the caliber of VS.NET, especially for C++ work.

    > Finally Exchange is the only thing that
    > isn't pervasive on unix. Unix people like to feel they have
    > superior tools to that. ;-)


    Oh yeah, POP3/SMTP is far superior to Exchange. Where's that
    all-inclusive collaboration package for *nix?

    Why do the Linux folk try to duplicate Outlook (see Evolution)?

    > > With all pervasive MS presence
    > > makes sense to stick to MS if that is your primary deployment

    platform
    > > if Windows is your primary platform and you are going Java you will
    > > face more interoperability problems than any advantages.

    >
    > Sure, but if your clientele is the world over, you appear to be
    > advocating the exclusion of 30% of your client base on servers,
    > just as a start, even if your numbers are correct.
    >
    > Not to flame you or anything, but that doesn't sound like such a great
    > idea.
    >
    > > Today C# as all the features of Java and C# as already been

    submitted
    > > to ECMA standards body whereas Sun as not submitted Java to ECMA.

    >
    > Sun certainly *submitted* java to a standards body, then retracted

    that
    > submission again.


    Twice, as a matter of fact. They never completed the submission process.

    > There's nothing stopping MS from trying the same.


    Actually, it's already done. The CIL and C# are standards and cannot
    be "pulled" anymore.

    MS has also got preliminary approval for ISO standardization process.

    > > Compare language feature by feature C# as everything Java as and

    more.
    > > The best thing I like of C# is the ease of programming, platform
    > > integration, and C# SDK like Java is available for free download and
    > > the best part of C# I like is it does not have performance issues of
    > > Java.

    >
    > If you say so. Isn't C# supposed to be a VM based langauge too?


    Kind of. The CLR is "like" a VM, but not true in the Java sense.
    For all intents and purposes, I guess it is.

    > In that case implementations of Java and C# ought to roughly be
    > equally fast in the long run.


    In theory, but apparently not in practice.

    -c
     
    Chad Myers, Jan 10, 2003
    #6
  7. Bruce W. Roeser

    kim bruning Guest

    Chad Myers <.4m.austin.rr.com> wrote:

    > "kim bruning" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Chad Myers <.4m.austin.rr.com> wrote:
    >>
    >> > "kim bruning" <> wrote in

    > message
    >> > news:...
    >> >>
    >> >> Visual Studio is "Not The Unix Way", though there are several
    >> >> other ides available.

    >>
    >> > But not of the caliber of VS.NET, especially for C++ work.

    >>
    >> Let's not start another IDE war. Let's just say I'm a vi addict and
    >> leave it at that, ok?


    > vi is an editor, not an IDE. You're comparing apples to oranges.


    But but they're both fruit, and apples are more tasty.

    Actually especially vim has all kinds of hooks to external
    applications which together makes for some truely decent
    editing. Basically, all of unix is one big IDE (especially
    if you install the "developer packages").

    > VS.NET is the best C++ IDE.


    I'll take your word for it, but I'll use vim to tangle with c++ thanks. :)
    (Like I said, I prefer apples. Can't argue with taste. ;-) ).

    > vi may or may not be the best text
    > editor.
    > Actually, ed is the best text editor.


    You do realise of course that ed begat ex (Ed eXtended),
    and that later versions of ex included a VIsual mode.
    On some systems, vi is just a symlink to ex. Just thought
    you'd like to know. ;-)

    Summarising, I'm using the bastard grand stepchild of the worlds best
    text editor, namely: vim.

    > In fact, the
    > word "editor" comes from ed, not "viitor" or "emacsitor"


    Sure, in fact vi comes from ed extended VIsual mode.

    > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929 /bin/ed


    Odd...

    kim@bruning:~ > ls -l `where ed`
    -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 62573 May 11 2001 /bin/ed
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 Oct 28 2001 /usr/bin/ed -> /bin/ed


    >> >> Finally Exchange is the only thing that
    >> >> isn't pervasive on unix. Unix people like to feel they have
    >> >> superior tools to that. ;-)

    >>
    >> > Oh yeah, POP3/SMTP is far superior to Exchange. Where's that
    >> > all-inclusive collaboration package for *nix?

    >>
    >> I think it's called finger. ;-)


    > You can do calendar scheduling over finger? :)


    Yup.
    chmod g+w .plan

    Now people can log in and do stuff like:
    echo "G\na\nCome by the old docks tomorrow at noon or else!\n.\nw\n" |
    ed ~chad/.plan

    See? They can even use the worlds' best text editor if they like.
    What more could you want? Mermaids?

    Actually, that's quite a flexible way of dealing with schedules.

    > What about that ever-popular quote service?


    But it makes calendaring so hard....

    rm .plan; # There goes the calendar
    mkfifo .plan
    while true; do fortune > .plan; sleep 1; done &
    disown

    in both cases:
    finger
    Should give people access to your calendar or quote service.
    (we could do both, but that gets tricky. Maybe try netcat, hmmm)

    >>
    >> > Why do the Linux folk try to duplicate Outlook (see Evolution)?

    >>
    >> Why, to allow linux machines to displace windows machines
    >> entirely of course. World domination!


    > Erm. Right. *looks at watch*. Wow, Linux gained 0.2% on the
    > desktop in the past 2 years or so on the desktop. At that rate,
    > it'll be about 940 years or so before Linux dominates. ;)


    You can see that on your watch? Is that the IBM one that runs
    linux? Wow, cool! [1]

    Well, anyway, as you can see, in 940 years it *will* dominate on
    the desktop, or what's left of it ;). So there you have it.

    >> > Actually, it's already done. The CIL and C# are standards and cannot
    >> > be "pulled" anymore.


    <snip cool data>.
    Wicked! I'm going to look at that.

    > Also, Microsoft released Rotor (aka Shared Source CLI - SSCLI)
    > which runs on Windows, *BSD, MacOS X, and Linux. It's full
    > source including the CLR, FCL, and C# compiler.


    Shared Source? Auh... that sounds scary... Got a link to
    their licencing scheme?

    <snip more cool docs. Thank you.>

    > The main argument is that MSIL is actually compiled, it's not
    > interpreted, so it doesn't have to emulate some system services
    > like the JVM does (though I'm not sure modern JVMs do this or
    > not).


    Since java 1.2 java uses a Just In Time compiler.

    Experimentally there's also been a Transmeta Crusoe masquerading
    as a jvm. (Though it's not really a VM if you can kick it, now is it?)


    This is a fun discussion!
    read you soon,
    Kim Bruning

    [1] Linux already dominates on the wristwatch. The desktop is NeXT!
     
    kim bruning, Jan 11, 2003
    #7
  8. Bruce W. Roeser

    Chad Myers Guest

    "kim bruning" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >
    > Chad Myers <.4m.austin.rr.com> wrote:
    >
    > > "kim bruning" <> wrote in

    message
    > > news:...
    > >> Chad Myers <.4m.austin.rr.com> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> > "kim bruning" <> wrote in

    > > message
    > >> > news:...
    > >> >>
    > >> >> Visual Studio is "Not The Unix Way", though there are several
    > >> >> other ides available.
    > >>
    > >> > But not of the caliber of VS.NET, especially for C++ work.
    > >>
    > >> Let's not start another IDE war. Let's just say I'm a vi addict and
    > >> leave it at that, ok?

    >
    > > vi is an editor, not an IDE. You're comparing apples to oranges.

    >
    > But but they're both fruit, and apples are more tasty.
    >
    > Actually especially vim has all kinds of hooks to external
    > applications which together makes for some truely decent
    > editing. Basically, all of unix is one big IDE (especially
    > if you install the "developer packages").


    Hrm, I disagree. An IDE is an "integrated" environment which
    means it had integrated compiler services, debugging, visual
    aides for building forms and such. Most IDEs are visual, whereas
    VI is more character mode.

    I would put VI in the same general category as Emacs, jEdit,
    Notepad and Textpad. Obvious VI is better than than those in
    some regards and worse in others, but that's a different
    debate which I don't really care about. But to call VI an
    IDE is a little misguided. VI is a very powerful editor.

    > > VS.NET is the best C++ IDE.

    >
    > I'll take your word for it, but I'll use vim to tangle with c++

    thanks. :)
    > (Like I said, I prefer apples. Can't argue with taste. ;-) ).


    Oh, I'm sure many people don't like full-blown IDEs for development.
    When I worked with Java, I thought the Java IDE situation was laughable
    so I used jEdit and a couple other text editors.

    However, from what I hear from C++ folk, if you had to choose an IDE,
    especially for Windows development, VS.NET is miles ahead of everyone
    else.

    >
    > > vi may or may not be the best text
    > > editor.
    > > Actually, ed is the best text editor.

    >
    > You do realise of course that ed begat ex (Ed eXtended),
    > and that later versions of ex included a VIsual mode.
    > On some systems, vi is just a symlink to ex. Just thought
    > you'd like to know. ;-)
    >
    > Summarising, I'm using the bastard grand stepchild of the worlds best
    > text editor, namely: vim.
    >
    > > In fact, the
    > > word "editor" comes from ed, not "viitor" or "emacsitor"

    >
    > Sure, in fact vi comes from ed extended VIsual mode.
    >
    > > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929 /bin/ed

    >
    > Odd...
    >
    > kim@bruning:~ > ls -l `where ed`
    > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 62573 May 11 2001 /bin/ed
    > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 Oct 28 2001 /usr/bin/ed ->

    /bin/ed

    This is a joke from the GNU humor page "Ed man!, !man ed"

    >
    > >> >> Finally Exchange is the only thing that
    > >> >> isn't pervasive on unix. Unix people like to feel they have
    > >> >> superior tools to that. ;-)
    > >>
    > >> > Oh yeah, POP3/SMTP is far superior to Exchange. Where's that
    > >> > all-inclusive collaboration package for *nix?
    > >>
    > >> I think it's called finger. ;-)

    >
    > > You can do calendar scheduling over finger? :)

    >
    > Yup.
    > chmod g+w .plan
    >
    > Now people can log in and do stuff like:
    > echo "G\na\nCome by the old docks tomorrow at noon or else!\n.\nw\n" |
    > ed ~chad/.plan
    >
    > See? They can even use the worlds' best text editor if they like.
    > What more could you want? Mermaids?


    How does that schedule and set reminders? Is there a sync program
    for my Palm or PocketPC? Can I invite other members and see their
    free/buys status? Can I host an "online" meeting?

    > Actually, that's quite a flexible way of dealing with schedules.


    Um, sure. I'll take your word for it.

    >
    > > What about that ever-popular quote service?

    >
    > But it makes calendaring so hard....
    >
    > rm .plan; # There goes the calendar
    > mkfifo .plan
    > while true; do fortune > .plan; sleep 1; done &
    > disown
    >
    > in both cases:
    > finger
    > Should give people access to your calendar or quote service.
    > (we could do both, but that gets tricky. Maybe try netcat, hmmm)
    >
    > >>
    > >> > Why do the Linux folk try to duplicate Outlook (see Evolution)?
    > >>
    > >> Why, to allow linux machines to displace windows machines
    > >> entirely of course. World domination!

    >
    > > Erm. Right. *looks at watch*. Wow, Linux gained 0.2% on the
    > > desktop in the past 2 years or so on the desktop. At that rate,
    > > it'll be about 940 years or so before Linux dominates. ;)

    >
    > You can see that on your watch? Is that the IBM one that runs
    > linux? Wow, cool! [1]


    Damn I wish. Whatever happened to that? I saw it when it first
    came out on Slashdot, but haven't heard much about it since.

    Also MS and a bunch of watch manufacturers are coming out with
    the Smart Personal Objects which run some basic OS but support
    receiving events and messages over an FM sub-band.

    Now I'll have to have a watch on both wrists!

    >
    > Well, anyway, as you can see, in 940 years it *will* dominate on
    > the desktop, or what's left of it ;). So there you have it.


    Exactly.

    >
    > >> > Actually, it's already done. The CIL and C# are standards and

    cannot
    > >> > be "pulled" anymore.

    >
    > <snip cool data>.
    > Wicked! I'm going to look at that.
    >
    > > Also, Microsoft released Rotor (aka Shared Source CLI - SSCLI)
    > > which runs on Windows, *BSD, MacOS X, and Linux. It's full
    > > source including the CLR, FCL, and C# compiler.

    >
    > Shared Source? Auh... that sounds scary... Got a link to
    > their licencing scheme?


    http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/sharedsource/

    It's pretty simple. You can read the source, play with it,
    change it and such, but you can sell it. I think you can
    redistribute it but only under the same license and you
    can't charge for it and only for personal or academic use.

    The point, as I understand it, is to allow people to view
    the source, but not much else.

    For example, the entire source of Windows CE .NET (WCE 4.0)
    was released under Shared Source.

    Rotor was an independent implementation of the CLI and C#
    specs to show that one could do it without actually being
    Microsoft (to show that the specs were complete and not
    just a Microsoft trick to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy).

    So the code in Rotor isn't the *actual* .NET code, but it
    bears many similarities as most of the design is implied in
    the ECMA spec.

    But to prove it's independent, Rotor has bugs that .NET
    doesn't and vice versa.

    > <snip more cool docs. Thank you.>
    >
    > > The main argument is that MSIL is actually compiled, it's not
    > > interpreted, so it doesn't have to emulate some system services
    > > like the JVM does (though I'm not sure modern JVMs do this or
    > > not).

    >
    > Since java 1.2 java uses a Just In Time compiler.


    Yeah, but it's not quite the same thing from what I understand.

    Apparently this isn't up for debate because I haven't heard anyone
    (even Gosling who never lets MS get away with anything) criticize
    MS' statements in this regard. Java is interpreted (and has a JIT
    which improves performance), whereas .NET is compiled and the
    compiled version is cached so future runnings of the program go
    faster.

    You'll have to talk with Anders and James to figure out the
    details because I'm not educated enough on the subject to
    discuss it thoroughly. I just know that the MS guys are always
    careful to point out, "it's NOT interpreted".

    > Experimentally there's also been a Transmeta Crusoe masquerading
    > as a jvm. (Though it's not really a VM if you can kick it, now is it?)


    lol, true. There are several Java hardware vendors already, as a matter
    of fact.

    > [1] Linux already dominates on the wristwatch. The desktop is NeXT!


    Indeed!

    -c
     
    Chad Myers, Jan 11, 2003
    #8
  9. "Chad Myers" <.4M.austin.rr.com> wrote in message
    news:QUOT9.18715$...
    >
    >
    > um, not they don't. No contact management, no calendar management,
    > journaling, instant messaging, info-store-as-file-store, etc, etc,
    > etc. The only things that come close are Notes and SuckWise--
    > I mean GroupWise.


    However the info-store-as-file-store feature is probably best forgotten. It
    has had so many serious bugs that I wouldn't trust it at all.

    Mark Thornton
     
    Mark Thornton, Jan 11, 2003
    #9
  10. "Ingo Pakleppa" <> wrote in message
    news:0g%T9.7903$...
    > On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 06:33:20 +0000, Chad Myers wrote:
    >
    >
    > > "Ingo Pakleppa" <> wrote in message
    > > news:c1NT9.5555$...
    > >> On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:24:53 +0000, Chad Myers wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >> Finally Exchange is the only thing that isn't pervasive on unix.

    > > Unix
    > >> >> people like to feel they have superior tools to that. ;-)
    > >> >
    > >> > Oh yeah, POP3/SMTP is far superior to Exchange. Where's that
    > >> > all-inclusive collaboration package for *nix?
    > >>
    > >> IMAP, LDAP and NNTP come very close to Exchange's features.

    > >
    > > um, not they don't. No contact management, no calendar management,
    > > journaling, instant messaging, info-store-as-file-store, etc, etc, etc.
    > > The only things that come close are Notes and SuckWise-- I mean
    > > GroupWise.

    >
    > Contact management: LDAP (and vcard). Calendar management: vcalendar.
    > (although I have to admit that I'm still looking for a server component
    > that handles that. It's a non-issue for my situation).
    > Instant messaging: I didn't know Exchange or Outlook could even do it. In
    > any case, gaim seems to do the trick for me just fine; I don't see any
    > particular advantage of integrating that.


    They aren't integrated. That's the business value Exchange provides. One
    person modifies an MS Project document, 20 people's schedules are updated,
    notification alarms go off on their PDAs, etc.

    It's easy to focus on the technology and remain oblivious to the business
    value.
     
    A Bag Of Memes, Jan 11, 2003
    #10
  11. Bruce W. Roeser

    kim bruning Guest

    Chad Myers <.4m.austin.rr.com> wrote:

    > "kim bruning" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >>
    >>
    >> Chad Myers <.4m.austin.rr.com> wrote:
    >>
    >> > "kim bruning" <> wrote in

    > message
    >> > news:...
    >> >> Chad Myers <.4m.austin.rr.com> wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> > "kim bruning" <> wrote in
    >> > message
    >> >> > news:...
    >> >> >>



    <random snippage from here on out>
    >> Basically, all of unix is one big IDE (especially
    >> if you install the "developer packages").


    > Hrm, I disagree. An IDE is an "integrated" environment

    ....

    If you read the discussion this way, it sounds wierd.
    Maybe you missed that sentance!

    > Most IDEs are visual, whereas
    > VI is more character mode.


    The irony here is that VI stands for VIsual. %-)

    >But to call VI an IDE is a little misguided. VI is a very powerful
    >editor.


    This is correct.

    But let us observe this verocious beast in its natural habitat,
    namely, the unix environment. We see now, that vim has hooks into
    ctags, make, ispell, etc.. and that these again have hooks branching
    out and so-forth, making the undergrowth in this virtual jungle so
    thick, that it is impossible to tell where the one starts and the
    other ends.

    Let's try and feed it and see what happens. Yikes! You
    see that?

    Let's look again, now in slow motion... here one moment I was
    still typing the source-code, feeding it one crumb at a time
    and then, all at once: SNAP! A running programme.

    Fascinating.

    > Oh, I'm sure many people don't like full-blown IDEs for development.


    And some people consider them perhaps too light? Just an opinion...
    *innocent look*

    <snip the Edding around>

    > This is a joke from the GNU humor page "Ed man!, !man ed"


    Beware of GNU humor. Much of it is "haha only serious".
    Ed actually exists and lives on!

    >> >> I think it's called finger. ;-)

    >>
    >> > You can do calendar scheduling over finger? :)

    >>
    >> Yup.
    >> chmod g+w .plan
    >>
    >> Now people can log in and do stuff like:
    >> echo "G\na\nCome by the old docks tomorrow at noon or else!\n.\nw\n" |
    >> ed ~chad/.plan
    >>
    >> See? They can even use the worlds' best text editor if they like.
    >> What more could you want? Mermaids?


    > How does that schedule and set reminders?


    I just showed you. :) You *did* ask for it you know! :)

    A better way to set reminders is not to use ed, but rather
    to use "mail"+"at" instead.

    >Is there a sync program
    > for my Palm or PocketPC?


    I'm not sure. Can those do TCP?

    >Can I invite other members and see their
    > free/buys status?


    Yes. I showed you, if you use a little imagination you could
    get it to work quite nicely.

    >Can I host an "online" meeting?


    You could do this with ed+finger, but perhaps the programme
    "talk" is more suitable for this.

    Really, MS is only about 3 decades behind the leading edge,
    their software is only a bit prettier. ;-)

    >> Actually, that's quite a flexible way of dealing with schedules.


    > Um, sure. I'll take your word for it.


    You ask, we deliver. :) (I do have a reputation to keep up
    you know. ;-) )

    <snip shared source>
    > The point, as I understand it, is to allow people to view
    > the source, but not much else.


    I've read some alarmist articles about shared source,
    I'm not sure it's safe to even glance at it. Talk about viral
    licencing ;-) Thank you for your link, I'll take a look. :)

    >I just know that the MS guys are always
    > careful to point out, "it's NOT interpreted".


    Too bad. Interpreters are very nice.

    read you soon,
    Kim Bruning
     
    kim bruning, Jan 12, 2003
    #11
  12. "Ingo Pakleppa" <> wrote in message
    news:RGdU9.11764$...
    > On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:18:58 +0000, A Bag Of Memes wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > "Ingo Pakleppa" <> wrote in message
    > > news:0g%T9.7903$...
    > >> On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 06:33:20 +0000, Chad Myers wrote:
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> > "Ingo Pakleppa" <> wrote in message
    > >> > news:c1NT9.5555$...
    > >> >> On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:24:53 +0000, Chad Myers wrote:
    > >> >>
    > >> >> >> Finally Exchange is the only thing that isn't pervasive on unix.
    > >> > Unix
    > >> >> >> people like to feel they have superior tools to that. ;-)
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > Oh yeah, POP3/SMTP is far superior to Exchange. Where's that
    > >> >> > all-inclusive collaboration package for *nix?
    > >> >>
    > >> >> IMAP, LDAP and NNTP come very close to Exchange's features.
    > >> >
    > >> > um, not they don't. No contact management, no calendar management,
    > >> > journaling, instant messaging, info-store-as-file-store, etc, etc,

    etc.
    > >> > The only things that come close are Notes and SuckWise-- I mean
    > >> > GroupWise.
    > >>
    > >> Contact management: LDAP (and vcard). Calendar management: vcalendar.
    > >> (although I have to admit that I'm still looking for a server component
    > >> that handles that. It's a non-issue for my situation).
    > >> Instant messaging: I didn't know Exchange or Outlook could even do it.

    In
    > >> any case, gaim seems to do the trick for me just fine; I don't see any
    > >> particular advantage of integrating that.

    > >
    > > They aren't integrated. That's the business value Exchange provides.

    One
    > > person modifies an MS Project document, 20 people's schedules are

    updated,
    > > notification alarms go off on their PDAs, etc.
    > >
    > > It's easy to focus on the technology and remain oblivious to the

    business
    > > value.

    >
    > That's not a value Exchange provides, but rather a feature of MS Project.


    No, it's Exchange that manages the calendars and instant messaging. It just
    knows how to read a MS Project file. All MS Project does is write the
    document.

    > Personally, I don't even find it a useful feature. In pretty much any
    > project I have been involved in, this feature got turned off very quickly
    > because it wreaked havoc with people's schedules.


    And I've worked places where it was used by everyone. It lets you accept or
    reject schedule changes and it can feed them back to the MS Project document
    so the project manager can re-schedule.

    >
    > There really is not all that much integration between calendaring, address
    > management and email that makes sense of the server side. On the client
    > side, that's a different story (and the MS Project integration that you
    > describe is one example for client-side integration).


    A lot of Exchange users disagree with you.
     
    A Bag Of Memes, Jan 12, 2003
    #12
  13. Bruce W. Roeser

    Frans Bouma Guest

    "kim bruning" <> wrote in
    news::
    > Chad Myers <.4m.austin.rr.com> wrote:
    >> "kim bruning" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >> Most IDEs are visual, whereas
    >> VI is more character mode.

    >
    > The irony here is that VI stands for VIsual. %-)


    heh, yeah visual ed. VI is nothing more than ed with multiple
    lines. (At least, in the old days without vim, ed's commands
    were also usable in VI).

    Compared to sed, vi was visual indeed.

    >>But to call VI an IDE is a little misguided. VI is a very powerful
    >>editor.

    >
    > This is correct.
    >
    > But let us observe this verocious beast in its natural habitat,
    > namely, the unix environment. We see now, that vim has hooks into
    > ctags, make, ispell, etc.. and that these again have hooks branching
    > out and so-forth, making the undergrowth in this virtual jungle so
    > thick, that it is impossible to tell where the one starts and the
    > other ends.
    >
    > Let's try and feed it and see what happens. Yikes! You
    > see that?
    >
    > Let's look again, now in slow motion... here one moment I was
    > still typing the source-code, feeding it one crumb at a time
    > and then, all at once: SNAP! A running programme.
    >
    > Fascinating.


    you shouldn't eat too much of those blue pills. ;)

    >>Can I host an "online" meeting?

    >
    > You could do this with ed+finger, but perhaps the programme
    > "talk" is more suitable for this.


    wasn't talk a Sun tool, using SunOS features?
    but ed+finger? haha :)

    > Really, MS is only about 3 decades behind the leading edge,
    > their software is only a bit prettier. ;-)


    talk didn't support multiple users, did it? (ircII is
    a better 'talk')

    FB

    --
    ======= You can't sell what's free ====================================
    Senior Software Engineer @ Solutions Design : http://www.sd.nl
    Get my free, open source .NET software at : http://www.sd.nl/software
    =========================================================================
     
    Frans Bouma, Jan 12, 2003
    #13
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